View Full Version : Split in belly scales? : (
Hey guys,
I just got this borneo 2 days ago and have been letting it relax in her new tub. I took her out today to handle for the first time and found this - splits in her belly scales. There's even some substrate trapped between the splits!!
http://imgur.com/1wEWT.jpg
http://imgur.com/YCFYo.jpg
http://imgur.com/Y9SMd.jpg
Has anyone seen this before? I'm really, really worried about my girl right now and I'm hoping it isn't anything serious!!! I've contacted the breeder and sent him these pics. Hopefully he has an answer or will provide a replacement.
Any help is appreciated!! Thanks so much
TylerWortman
10-27-10, 11:56 AM
Ive noticed this in all of my snakes I think its the belly button but I am not sure.
Will0W783
10-27-10, 11:57 AM
It looks like cleft scute, a birth defect. The scutes (belly scales) on the left and right sides fuse together during the last stages of developmen in the egg, and sometimes something goes wrong and a few don't fuse. Then you end up with a snake that has a split in the middle of belly scales. I would put it on paper towels and monitor its status after a shed or two. As long as it doesn't appear to be a wound that is healing, there isn't really anything you can do.
dragunov.762
10-27-10, 12:00 PM
one of my corn snakes anal plate is like that only the two scales overlap. he has not had any proplems arise from it that i have seen.
That`s a birth defect by the looks of it. Notice the scales curve inward toward the "split" I`m guessing that`s where the umbilical cord was. It doesn`t look too nasty or anything, I wouldn`t say you`re in trouble there at all. I would however take every precaution against infection by putting her on newspaper so there`s no substrate to get in there. Keep it clean with iodine (mixed nine parts water per one part iodine) using a cotton bud and taking care not to catch the bud on any sharp part of the defect. Keep her water clean fresh and changed EVERY day until this problem is sorted. I wouldn`t swap her matey, I really don`t think you`ll have problems with this if you keep it clean and keep the vivarium sterile. Make sure the viv is good and humid, drying her out may make it worse. Is she eating ok? How do you heat her viv? I think I might be a little concerned if you`re using a heat mat.....
marvelfreak
10-27-10, 12:07 PM
I believe it like a belly button. All my snake as babies had this. My yearling no longer have it so it will vanish by the time they're a year old. With each shed it will get smaller.
Can we see some pictures of the whole snake please? She looks a little under weight in that top one, if she isn`t eating AND looks under weight it may act as barometer to the situation...
marvelfreak
10-27-10, 12:11 PM
Can we see some pictures of the whole snake please? She looks a little under weight in that top one, if she isn`t eating AND looks under weight it may act as barometer to the situation...
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/python-curtus/84559-my-first-borneo.html#post576443
Cheers Chuck :) She`s a real looker isn`t she! Maybe a little bit slender but she`s definatly eating. A totally manageable situation there I recon......
Thanks for the responses guys! So, I inspected my ball python and my BCI and noticed they have what appears to be similar splits (but not nearly as bad). My ball python has whole scales but you can see a dark line and a dimple where the split MAY have been. My BCI has split scales too but they aren't separated - they are very tight against each other/overlap.
I don't think it's a wound but, then again, none of my snakes have had major injuries before. The closest injury I've experienced was when I was taking my ball python out of her tub and a few of her scales scratched against the lid. They got caught and kinda flipped over. She now has a fading scar where the scales flipped : (
In terms of housing, all my snakes are in tubs. I put them on newspaper so I can monitor their stool. I used aspen for a short while but found that when my BP was young, she'd drop some urates under the bedding and I wouldn't notice it until I did her bi-weekly cleanings (the urates were small and I couldn't see/smell them.. now that she's 1100g, I notice her urates right away from the smell). I also once had to extract a piece of aspen that somehow got stuck in her anus (just a couple millimetres in). So yup, my borneo is on newspaper.
She's also on a regulated 8x8" 8W heat pad right now. I have my herpstat II set to maintain that spot to be 88F.
I'm going to try to give her a bath and to clean out the split. The breeder kept the borneos on cocofibre and I could actually see some particles between the split so I'm going to have to clean that out.
I usually change the water every 2-3 days but I'll start doing daily changes. Do you think it's necessary to do daily newspaper changes? I lightly mist the newspaper to up the humidity but, thinking about it now, I'm going to stop that.
Thanks again for all the advice! I'm feeling slightly better because it seems many snakes have this type of slit in the belly scales... the only thing still bugging me is that 2 of the split scales don't overlap.
Can we see some pictures of the whole snake please? She looks a little under weight in that top one, if she isn`t eating AND looks under weight it may act as barometer to the situation...
I think it was the way I had to hold her to take the photo that made her look extra skinny. When she's laying down and relaxed, she's quite thick for her size!
She's actually a really sweet girl. She was actually quite alert and active when I took her out today. She didn't go into a threat posture at all and didn't seem to threaten me (I was surprised because I heard young short tails can be quite feisty). Though... I think it kinda bugged her when I was inspecting the split and taking pics so I put her back into her tub right after snapping the shots.
I think I'm going to wait a couple more days before attempting to feed her.
infernalis
10-27-10, 01:26 PM
Having had to cut umbilicals before, I'd say judging by the location that is the "belly button"
The curvature on the inside indicated that it's nothing recent, and the location on the snake is about dead on for where the umbilical cord would be attached pretty much says "belly button"
Will0W783
10-27-10, 01:58 PM
Huh, I'm going to have to go take a look at all my snakes now..I don't remember seeing spots like that, but I'm going to have to check now. I'm all curious.
Having had to cut umbilicals before, I'd say judging by the location that is the "belly button"
The curvature on the inside indicated that it's nothing recent, and the location on the snake is about dead on for where the umbilical cord would be attached pretty much says "belly button"
This is great news! It seems like the general consensus is that it's just the belly button and should be there. There has been substrate caught in there so I'm going to give her a warm soak to try to get the particles out.
Huh, I'm going to have to go take a look at all my snakes now..I don't remember seeing spots like that, but I'm going to have to check now. I'm all curious.
I did this right after noticing it on my borneo! I never noticed it on either my ball python or BCI.. but now that I know what to look for, I can spot where the 'belly button' used to be on both of them.
I'm going to take Feebo's advice and just keep her and her enclosure clean.
I`d keep the misting up dude, you don`t want her drying out or it could make things worse. I`m a little concerned about direct heat to that aswell. Can you arrange another method of heating? It might well not be an issue at all but if we put our preventative heads on for a moment, direct heat could potentially dry it out or otherwise irritate it. I can`t recommend proper cleaning AND disinfecting enough. Iodine is very good stuff for keeping things like this clean :) I think infection and drying out are the main concerns here. You really don`t want that getting dry and flakey at all. Keep your misting up, once a day but a decent "rainfall" Keep it disinfected and I think you`ll be just fine :) Well obviously YOU will, but your snake will too lol :)
marvelfreak
10-27-10, 03:27 PM
Huh, I'm going to have to go take a look at all my snakes now..I don't remember seeing spots like that, but I'm going to have to check now. I'm all curious.
The younger the snake the easier to spot. When i got my Bredli Carpet and Marble Borneo last year i noticed it on both of them. I was freaking out wondering what it was. So i called a couple pet store and ask the owner if they ever seen this and was told it was a belly button basically. So when i got my Diamond x Jungle, BRB and Yellow Anaconda i checked and they all had one. My buddy Shawn snake all had them too.
infernalis
10-27-10, 04:49 PM
I lost a baby garter snake this year from that "belly button" never closing up, the poor thing died within 2 day of birth with a hole in it's belly.
Had I spotted it sooner, I would have just euthanized the snake and spared it the pain.
How excatly? It`s difficult to know how you`d go about such a heart breaking but appropriate action. The more I breed, the more I think I`m going to have to do that one day...
My breeder just got back to me:
"That is the place where the ambilical cord attaches to the snake, after they hatch they absorb the remaining yolk and then the hole seals and leaves the little scar you see. It will fad out as the snake ages, it takes longer for borneos I believe because they do not shed as regularly as other species like balls.
Borneos can be months before there 1st shed after hatching."
presspirate
10-27-10, 06:10 PM
This is a very interesting thread. Thanks all for the info. And Maitre, best of luck to you and your young girl there.
infernalis
10-27-10, 07:09 PM
How excatly? It`s difficult to know how you`d go about such a heart breaking but appropriate action. The more I breed, the more I think I`m going to have to do that one day...
I place them in the refrigerator for about 2 hours forcing them into a state of hibernation, then swiftly put them in the freezer overnight.
The water in their cells expands and forms ice crystals destroying all brain activity.
I`d keep the misting up dude, you don`t want her drying out or it could make things worse. I`m a little concerned about direct heat to that aswell. Can you arrange another method of heating? It might well not be an issue at all but if we put our preventative heads on for a moment, direct heat could potentially dry it out or otherwise irritate it. I can`t recommend proper cleaning AND disinfecting enough. Iodine is very good stuff for keeping things like this clean :) I think infection and drying out are the main concerns here. You really don`t want that getting dry and flakey at all. Keep your misting up, once a day but a decent "rainfall" Keep it disinfected and I think you`ll be just fine :) Well obviously YOU will, but your snake will too lol :)
Okay, I'll keep the humidity up. I'll do daily newspaper changes to avoid bacteria/fungal blooming. I'm thinking of giving her a humid hide with sphagnum moss as well but, again, I rather not put her on substrate that could get caught in the split!
Hmm, she is in a small tub right now. I can't think of heating her any other way. There are heat panels I guess? but not sure how I'd mount that other than on the lid.
I place them in the refrigerator for about 2 hours forcing them into a state of hibernation, then swiftly put them in the freezer overnight.
The water in their cells expands and forms ice crystals destroying all brain activity.
:sorry:
Is it possible to just gas them like with rats? When I CO2 my ASF's, they just fall asleep and don't wake up.
Freebody
10-27-10, 07:59 PM
check out the threat called rats, their is some good info their about how co2 is not good to use to uthenize. :)
check out the threat called rats, their is some good info their about how co2 is not good to use to uthenize. :)
I just read the thread.. now I don't know how to euthanize my rats from now on : (
infernalis
10-27-10, 11:34 PM
:sorry:
Is it possible to just gas them like with rats? When I CO2 my ASF's, they just fall asleep and don't wake up.
No, the oxygen requirements for reptiles is not even on the same scale as mammals.
Snakes can sit under rocks submerged in water for a VERY long time.
A severed snake head can live for a very long time with its body detached.
so gassing them would be pointless.
The only other way is very brutal, it requires complete destruction of the brain, usually accomplished by crushing the entire head at once.
Not something a lot of us are willing to do.
For a humid hide you could buy some sponges, cut them up into little bits and place those into a box and spray them. That way you`ve got your humidity but no bits :) You`ll want to disinfect them often but it`ll work a treat... As for heating, unless you have some vivariums at your disposal, I`m a bit stuck for ideas I`m afraid. Maybe you could heat the top of the tub and the sides, but confine the tub so as to push the heat inward? I``d probably play it by belly button lol and just see how it goes. If it starts to look dry and cracked and angry, you know what should help.....
Oh and cheers for the info Wayne, that helps a lot...
I have a couple extra tanks lying around but I would really prefer not to use them. They are both 20gal - one is tall and one is long (w sliding screen lid). My experience with tanks are not good - they've never held heat or humidity as well as plastic tubs.
I'll take a pic of the borneo's set up. Her tub is actually semi-enclosed with a cardboard box. It's kinda hard to explain so I'll just upload a couple pics in a bit : P
This is my snake corner. My borneo is on the top level in the small tub that's sitting in the cardboard box. The three small containers in the corner have 3 tarantulas in them. The rest of my T's (17 others) are in my dedicated exotic room. I decided to bring my snakes into my room so I can keep a closer eye on them. The red packets on the bottom shelf are 12hr instant heat packs in case I lose power. Yup, my ball python gets a HP box right now as a hide - I'm gonna buy her one of those nice black plastic ones next. Until then, she gets random cardboard boxes.
http://imgur.com/0EhVD.jpg
I use the herpstat II to regulate my heatpads. Channel 1 regulates the 2 smaller tubs (borneo + BCI babies). Channel 2 regulates the big tub (ball python).
http://imgur.com/6Ar42.jpg
Since I only have 1 sensor for the two smaller tubs, I have an digital thermometer to monitor temps in the tub without the herpstat sensor. The upper readout is for the probe. So far, temps are within 0.5F between the two tubs. If I need to check humidity, I can throw the whole unit inside one of the tubs since it has a hygrometer as well.
http://imgur.com/AOoEB.jpg
This is my borneo set up. It's very simplistic right now and I plan on keeping it that way until her belly button seals up. Newspaper, deli cup for water, and a black plastic hide. I think it's quite humid in there - you can see condensation building on the left side. I may drill more holes. I have 6 on the lid and there are some on the side as well.
http://imgur.com/sy2qR.jpg
I`d leave the holes matey, it doesn`t need any more really. :) I`d consider spraying the whole lot once a day aswell. Although you have water dropplets on the one side, that`s not a very humid box by the looks of it anyway. A decent humid box would be covered in water dropplets. OR if you really would rather not do that, try a large shallow water dish with a sponge in it. Keep it topped right up, don`t worry about a little spillage, (Because you`ve got your mat UNDER the tub as opposed to IN it) and you`ll have a proper humid enclosure then I recon :) Are you using a hygrometer? You want it kinda 60%-85% cyclic humidity in there. Cyclic meaning it dries up and then you come along and make it rain some more each evening.... :)
I sprayed down the tub with some hot water so humidity should be very high now. My digital thermometre has a built in hygrometer : P I'll stick it in the tub and see what kinda readings i get
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