Rats

[ema-leigh]

Hey Snake forum!

I'm new, I am posting hoping you will consider what I have to say :]

The reason for my post is hopefully promote better care for feeder rats and thus creating the best quality meals for your reptiles. No, I am not some PETA freak... I just really like rats and I do breed them but for pet purposes. Also I don't own a snake but I know if I did I would want to feed it the best quality healthy rats available. I also want to say that I know there are some good feeder breeders out there that give their feeders a good quality of life, so please no one take offense if that is you. Its also not going to be too detailed on my end, if you want me to expand on anything just let me know!

Well firstly the first thing I notice is a lot of breeders keep their rats on pine bedding. I know its a cheap bedding, but its toxic to them and make the rats sick. (It causes liver and kidney damage, so by the time you see symptoms the rats very sick on the inside) It can also irritate their airways. When the rats are sick they loose weight and condition. Their coats get thin and scraggly and they are producing poor quality offspring. A good cheap bedding could be shredded newspaper or aspen. Birthing moms can be offered thick kitchen paper towels so they can make a nest.

Also mother rats should not be bred back to back, they should be given at least a 2 week break between litters so they can regain some of the condition they loose. Back to back litters puts too much strain on mom and she can't produce good quality milk - which effects the babies growth and development. It also will effect your breeding program in the long run because you will be making worse quality babies with each passing generation. Pregnant mommas can be given approx 1/6th of a hard boiled egg as a great supplement for that little extra protien and fat they need.

Next is genetics.. you do need some sort of structure in your breeding program to make sure you are producing healthy rats. If you are inbreeding (breeding related rats) for several generations, any bad traits within the parents are strengthened in their offspring. To prevent this becoming an issue you must out cross every 2-3 generations or so. Which is just breeding the rat to a completely unrelated rat.

Next is over crowding their cages. If you overcrowd you will ultimately stress out the moms. Which can cause them to eat their litter, or kill some of the babies. It can also cause pregnant rats to reabsorb a litter or cause birth complications. It may also cause adults to fight each other more resulting in injury or death. Also albino rats generally have the largest number of babies born each litter,... (This is a pure white rat with red or pink eyes. If the rat has a dirty looking smudge on their nose, feet or bum they are not albino but himalayan) That may be an option for people looking to downsize to make the work load easier but keep producing the same amount of babies/profit

Then their diet. Those seed mixes from the pet store don't even provide the basics. The best thing to do would be to go to a bulk grocery store and buy some grains like oats, wheat, rye, barley etc... and then just mix these into your seed mixes. It'll offer the rats the carbs they need and won't work out to be any more expensive. It will make 1 bag of seed mix last a lot longer. To keep them the healthiest, offer them veggies everyday or as often as you can.

Then its HOW you kill them. Gasing them in a CO2 chamber is actually not painless, they experience dizziness, vertigo, nausea and their airways will burn before they die. Putting them in the freezer is no good either - they don't just fall asleep.. they experience extreme hypothermia, frost bite and its a very traumatic death for them. So the best way seems to be the good old fashioned break their necks. I won't go into detail, but thats the best way I found after much research. Just please make sure you do it right.

And please always feed pre killed for both the rat and the snakes fault. (even if you buy live and break the neck right before you feed - so the food is still warm and life like for the snake) I'm sure as many of you know... the rat may also injure the snake as they have a very strong bite for their size.

I think thats every point I wanted to bring up, please no one take offense and be open minded. Every thing's open for discussion. I actually belong to a rat forum and people are always saying they should come on here and say something stupid like ''whats the best way to kill this snake to feed my rat'' as they think thats getting the point across. But I thought, they are people too.. why not just talk to them? So here I am.. please be nice!

[marvelfreak]

Hello and Welcome.
I for one would like to thank you. I just learn quite a bit about rats i didn't know and in my book learning always good. I would hope anyone who breed their own rats wouldn't keep them on pine as it is toxic to snake also.
I had thought about breeding my own, but my wife said no way in hell.

[infernalis]

I for one treat all my rats and mice as pets right up till the final moment.

Just because they are food does not mean they should not live good otherwise.

I use Corn flakes, shredded wheat and other crackers / cereal (unsweetened of course) from the dollar store mixed with "mouse food" & Bird seed.

[Freebody]

whats the best way to break its neck if you dont mind me asking? grabs it head and twist? i always bonked them on the head back when all i could get was live rats, but what was not always the best idea. i do plan to breed a few rats just to decrease the cost of food if not absorb it completely. thx for the tips tho i will do just that when i get a place of my own, I like rats and all animals and feel the same way as most peole would,i see no reason why they should not live happy healthy live just like any other pet i have. atm breeding its no way in hell as well for me lol

[infernalis]

Although demanding, My rodent colonies are very educational.

You can figure out a lot of simple genetics fast with rodents, I can predict what color pattern a big percentage of each litter will be.

I have one set that peoduce marble blonds most of the time, some tht make "cows" etc..

http://www.reptard.info/pic/micelove.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/snakes/mice.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/snakes/meece.jpg

http://www.reptard.info/critters/3mice.jpg

[Freebody]

lol those mice in the last pic look sweet. i want to get a hairless rat, if i see one for sale im going to buy it right away and keep it as a pet and breed it for snake food, win win :)

[infernalis]

Belive it or not, this guy was born to two normal parents with hair in a litter where all siblings have hair.

I have no clue where the trait came from, both parents are now dead.......

http://www.reptard.info/2010/rat.jpg

[Freebody]

lol ya buddy that guy looks sweet lol i was reading things like that as well, both folks are haired but 1 baby come out hairless, or even as far as the owner never getting another hairless rat out of the pairing agian. i also was reading that they tend to not be very good breeders, unless you keep them in a real warm room because they use more nutrients to stay healthy due to needing to work at keep warmer than haired rats which make for unhealthy mothers.... makes sence tho.

[infernalis]

I had to move him, the other males were picking on him.

[Freebody]

hmm i wonder if they could sence he was defected, like natural sence of survival, weak die and the strong survive. or if they picked on him becuase he simply looked different.

[presspirate]

I'd have a hard time raising rats for food. We had 3 females for awhile, and they were just awesome! We oftentimes would be watching a movie in the bedroom and let them run around on the bed. If we were eating popcorn or chips or something they would come and try to steal from us.:yes:

[Freebody]

i bred rats a years ago, i had one female that was a real sweet heart, she would crawl into my pockets and sleep for hours, and like you said, run aound and steel food from me. she never deficated on me ever. i miss her for sure.

[percey39]

Good advice fro breeding and keeping rats. They are extremely easy to get breeding and a lot cheaper than buying especially when you have to feed more than 10 and even more so when you get to 20.

[ema-leigh]

First of, thank you everyone for the wonderful replies! :rolleyes:

I can explain how that hairless rat in the picture you posted, with two furred parents was created. The rat is not a true genetic hairless it is in fact a double rex which can be bred through selective breeding to be mostly hairless - but they often still retain some facial hair and eyelashes which is vital as hairless are prone to eye issues (as they don't have eyelashes). Both parents had to of been rex (wavy/curly coat + whiskers), as its a dominant gene and if the rat carries it, it displays it. If you breed a rex rat to a standard coated rat, most of the litter will be rex (so its very easy to recreate). If you breed a rex to a rex... you will get a double rex which will have patchy hair. Through selective breeding you can then make them mostly hairless as seen in the picture. I hope thats easy to understand, I'm some what of a genetics freak when it comes to rats lol.

The true hairless often have issues producing milk, and the litter can die within the first few weeks because of it. As a pet breeder I am very careful which hairless lines I choose to breed because of this issue. They also have a naturally higher metabolism and eat about twice as much food, they don't need heat so much.. just provide a good little shelter for them like a cardboard box packed with kitchen paper towel or a hanging hammock.

Now if you have a double rex on the other hand, they don't have the higher metabolism so don't eat more food. They also don't need a heat source, I have found they do fine in a regular house temperature esp if housed with regular furred rats and again provided with nesting material. It is important any rats with any sort of baldness are not housed in chilly rooms or in a draft as they are more prone to illness.

I also want to give breeders a heads up on mega colon, which is created from ''high white'' markings. First let me explain mega colon, its basically where their bowels don't work right and they can't poop or if they can its very runny and strained. They generally don't grow the same rate as the other unaffected siblings and can look thin but bloated at the same time. 99% its not treatable and the rats suffer and die. The rare 1% it is, they need a special diet and care etc. And when you continue to breed from rats that produce offspring with megacolon, with each generation there will slowly be more and more in each litter that will get it and die. The affected babies will die before weaning and the effects are VERY visual from a young age. It is also possible the rats get late onset mega colon which is later in life anytime after 10 months of age. Its basically a rat with white where there shouldn't be. For example, facial blazes (stripes on the face) dots on the face etc. And any rat with odd color eyes I can guarantee you is capable of producing this deadly disease ... your best bet for healthiest babies is to stick to solid colored babies, or hooded markings. White bellies and feet are okay, but you don't want the white to be extending too far up the sides of the rat. I know people who produce for pet stores often aim for the high white look as it is pretty... but its also deadly!

As for the best way to break the neck... I believe you grab the body in one hand and the head in the other then quickly bring the neck backwards and up at the same time - so as to dislocate and break it for a quick painless death. You might want to research the technique a bit online. I'm not 100% sure as I've never had to do that myself.

[annieb_mice]

Excellent advice! While I am a feeder breeder, I try to care for my breeders as well as I can, right up to and including their death. Thank you for coming on here and sharing your knowledge with us! I already knew everything you mentioned, and haven't used pine shavings for a long time. I don't use a seed mix as the rats will simply pick out their favourite foods and leave the rest, so I use a block type organic grain food which they do really well on.
Welcome and thanks! What types of rats do you breed?

[ema-leigh]

It is really great to meet people who care for their feeders :)

I breed several different types of rats, but I'm slowly working towards all dumbo ears with either rex or double rex coats :]
If you want to check out my website to see the pictures of my rats its Home - The Rattery (http://www.kelownarattery.webs.com)

[infernalis]

I just read over the site home page. Impressive standards!

[mykee]

I echo the sentiments of most here as well. I also breed rats to feed my large collection of pythons and find that most responsible breeders are concerned about the quality of life of their feeders. I love my snakes and have grown to love my rat colonies as well (still hate mice those bitey little pricks...) Regardless of whether or not they were born to serve a higher purpose, I have found over ten years of breeding rats that a happy rat is a healthy, large, good breeding, unstressed rat. I feed it a high quality lab-diet formula, and keep them on kiln-dried hardwood (Beta Chip).
I think it was very brave of you to come on here and somehow and to tow the line of getting your point across without being preachy. Bravo to you.

[annieb_mice]

Just saw your website, Emma, and I want to congratulate you on putting your rats FIRST and not the almighty trophy, ribbon, bragging rights, ect! You are right, there are a lot of people who look at rats as simply food... not caring much about their comfort, quality of life, ect... why bother, they're just snake food. I've kept rats as pets since I was a little girl and am always amazed at just how smart and friendly they are! I breed my rats for two things -- temperament and health. Everything else (colours, markings, ect) comes second. I have to work with these animals every day, and do NOT want to be bitten by a temperamental mom. I also want my animals to be as healthy as possible... the healthier my breeders are, the healthier and stronger their babies will be and the few vet bills I will have. (Yes, I do take my rats to the vet if I see any problems.)
As you see, many of the people on this forum, and other reptile forums, really do care about their pets and the quality of food their pets are getting. Considering some snakes are well over $1000 each, and some are over $10,000, it's worth it to have good food going into them! :)
I really do appreciate the time and courage it took for you to come onto a reptile forum and share your knowledge with us! Thank you! It's so nice to see a pet rat breeder try to out feeder breeders!

[Freebody]

hey annie do you ever produce hairless or double rex rats like waynes picture? If you ever do produce one would you mind letting me know? I think it would be sweet to have one as a pet. thx :)

[annieb_mice]

Hi Dave....
Yeah, I have those all the time. I'm working on breeding them OUT of my colonies, but they keep cropping up. (Note: I'm not working TOO hard as they are so darn cute and seem to be more sociable than fully furred rats. ) I'm also working a bit on frosted rats and blues... :)
Take care
Annie

[infernalis]

Hi Dave....
Yeah, I have those all the time. I'm working on breeding them OUT of my colonies, but they keep cropping up. (Note: I'm not working TOO hard as they are so darn cute and seem to be more sociable than fully furred rats. ) I'm also working a bit on frosted rats and blues... :)
Take care
Annie

"Streaker" (His name) is very gentle, never bit or anything. He is a nervous rat though, holding him seems to stress him out.

[Freebody]

sweet with any luck you will have a younger one when i pick up my next order in a couple months and ill take it home with me and set up a nice cage :) PS Streaker is a steller name lol i might have to go honor the little fella with a Streaker jr.

[ema-leigh]

Sorry I am just replying now, I've been so busy all week :]

I am moved by the kind feed back and how open minded/friendly your forum has been towards me and the subject raised. I am not a snake owner, but I am happy we can find common ground as animal lovers. Thank you to everyone who has put care and love into their feeders, they are incredible yet defenseless animals and may the good karma reflect in the heath and happiness of your reptiles.

Oh and happy thanks giving/halloween everyone!

[Freebody]

same to you ema :)

[candyraver69]

Just browsing around on the internet reading articles about the ethics of breeding feeder rats and stumbled on this.

Nice post Ema but I would like to add a bit.

Your everyday "grain mix" for rodents is not very nutritious. Sometimes it can be cheap, but its loaded with empty calories. Even by adding grain, oats, and barley from the feed store, this still isn't very good balanced food for rats, ESPECIALLY ones that are going to be a food source. Rats are omnivorous and need protein higher than grain mixes alone can provide, nuts and such are expensive and not found in these cheap mixes.

Your very best bet for food combining nutrition with cost effectiveness is going to be feeding a decent quality "lite" dog food, or at least mixing dog food with the grain mix. Something such as Nutro "lite" has a very similar nutrition content to Harlan lab blocks. Harlan lab blocks would be an ideal nutritionally balanced diet, but unless you are breeding feeders on a very large scale, getting it will be a pain since it's not sold in pet stores and getting it shipped in small amounts multiplies the cost of it exponentially.

I also have to disagree with the best "humane" method for killing. CO2 poisoning CAN cause burning if done improperly, but if the CO2 is introduced slowly the animal is anesthetized just as if it was being knocked out for a surgery. After the animal falls asleep a larger amount can be introduced to kill the animal in it's sleep. A very good article I found on the subject: Small Animal Euthanasia at Home (http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/)

All of this is of coarse my hypothesis after my own personal research. I am not writing here to argue with what you are saying, but just add a bit of what I picked up through my reading to add ideas to the thread. Hope I am not offending.

[ema-leigh]

Well no your not offending me at all, but I do have to add that a lot of what you mentioned is actually not accurate. There is a TON of wrong info on the internet about rats.

Co2 burns whatever way you administer it to the rats. How can I prove this? Set up a Co2 Chamber (without a rat in there) even to a lower dose than normal then stick your face in it... your skin and eyes will burn. Its nothing like being knocked out for surgery.. if it were don't you think it would be a cheaper option than isoflurane - which is the only STABLE anestethic permissible to be used for surgeries. Theres a reason we don't use Co2! The sources you read on the internet were likely very outdated, or just plainly misinformed. The link you gave to small euthanasia at home does not mean its humane. This has been tried and tested and the vets use Isoflurane followed by lethal injection to the heart/stomach for a reason. Co2 would be a much cheaper option for them, but its not allowed by the board because the animals DO SUFFER!

The mix I posted is a very basic, but complete diet. Rats need CARB based protien, not meat based. Its a misconception to think grain contains no protien. Dog food, in which ever form is going to be hard on rats organs. Now adding a little bit to a mix is okay... (generally because most dog foods are poor quality and contain grains anyway) but its not okay to be fed full term (and the 'meat' protien in dog food is from a very poor source). Nuts and seeds are high in protien and oils, too much will make your rats itchy and their coats dull + greasy. A small amount will act as a supplement. I don't get what you mean by empty calories? These are carbs, packed with the nutrition thats rats are supposed to eat. Now if these grains were puffed cereal, or sugary then yes they would be garbage. But plain whole grains... thats what they need!!
Also canned veggies from your grocery store.. they'll really appreciate it and what are they like 77 cent a can?

Please if you want me to explain anything in more detail just let me know. I can provide links and scientific studies if you can read that sort of thing.

Harlan is a great lab block to feed your rodents. If anyone lives in Canada I know of a very reasonable distributor within Canada. (so no crazy import fees)
I'm in British Columbia and I got charged $66 to have a 33lb bag delivered to my door! Works out to less than $2 per lb (shipping costs included)
It can be frozen for up to 6 months before it slowly starts to loose nutritional value, and I mean very slowly so it can be used a month or so after the expiry date.

[candyraver69]

The information I read from is not just a few articles on the internet written by anybody and everybody. I have done my research. It is possible that our variance in opinion is due to locality, as you claim CO2 is not approved by the board for use. It IS approved for use here in the US and is used by many veterinarians, labs and animal shelters for most species of animals although certain species it is not. For that one I think we should just agree to disagree, and let each person choose what is best for themselves.

It is possible our variance in opinion about food is different for the very same reason. I don't know how things work there, but here the grain mixes available on the shelf of a pet store are very poor in nutritional content. It's not a matter of me claiming grain mixes are empty calories because I am under the impression grains don't have protein or nutritional value, it's a matter of the severe decline in nutritional value because of the nature it is processed, shelved, and distributed. Things may be very different where you live. I am also speaking in terms of a snake fancier trying to provide a healthy but low cost diet for rats they are feeding to a snake, not what I would feed my own babies who I plan to keep for 5+ years. I feed Harlan supplemented with fresh veggies and fruits to my babies, I think their diet is far better than my own.

Yes, canned veggies would be a great cheap supplement, make sure to pick one that is canned with plain water rather than salt water though as some types have it added to give flavor and high salt content is not good for them.

I can provide links and studies as well, and I would be happy to read from your studies. I am not closed minded and the more information on any given subject the better. Even people that spend their entire life dedicated to a particular thing are going to have different ideas and facts to display, it is the nature of science, study and research.

Thank you for providing me and the forum with your opinions and expertise on the matter, I think it's great for the pet community to be provided with a variety of ideas and theories to discuss :)

[infernalis]

CO2 is an awful way to die, but there is good reason to use it for feeders.

It's the only way to euthanize a large number all at once without contaminating the meat.

[Reptile_Reptile]

just a heads up ema-leigh said to use whole grains from the store like oats and such to supplement the diets like my local win-co has bins of oats and other whole grains and they sell it at a very cheap $/lbs ratio

[LISA127]

Yes, shelters gas animals to euthanize them because it is more cost effective for the shelter. It is a horrendous and scary way to die for the dogs, though. Just awful.

I know of no veterinarian that gasses animals to death!!!???

[Reptile_Reptile]

^ me either in fact i know it to be false my aunt is a retired vet and she says it is misinformation

[candyraver69]

Guess I'll have to try the fumes on myself for a few seconds to really know for sure if it makes eyes and nose burn. I'll update you on that soon.

I've heard the horror stories about the shelters, but I gotta say I think a lot of the stories we hear are about shelters that do it WRONG to save money and time. The American Veterinary Medical Association was pretty clear in their reports about euthanasia that it's a good choice for an anesthetic:

"Inhalation of CO2 at a concentration of 7.5% increases the pain threshold, and higher concentrations of CO2 have a rapid anesthetic effect."

"Several investigators have suggested that inhalation of high concentrations of CO2 may be distressing to animals, because the gas dissolves in moisture on the nasal mucosa. The resulting product, carbonic acid, may stimulate nociceptors in the nasal mucosa. Some humans exposed to concentrations of around 50% CO2 report that inhaling the gas is unpleasant and that higher concentrations are noxious. A brief study of swine examined the aversive nature of CO2 exposure69 and found that 90% CO2 was aversive to pigs while 30% was not. For rats, exposure to increasing concentrations of CO2 (33% achieved after 1 minute) in their home cage produced no evident stress as measured by behavior and ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone concentrations in serum."

To summarize that- the report it saying if too much CO2 is introduced too fast, yeah it may not feel so great. You have to slowly increase the CO2 level to out the animal to sleep without causing pain and discomfort. Obviously there is a margin of error involved, but there is with cervical dislocation as well (breaking the neck), as if it's done wrong it can hurt the animal badly without killing it. All I know is I would much rather be knocked out with gas than be beat against a hard surface or have a sharp object pry my head off at the neck- I guess to each his own but it's certainly not a "humane" way to die in my opinion.

Anyways, Ema I sincerely apologize for even bringing it up at this point, as I was only trying to present another option and it seems I have turned your thread into an argument about the ethics of different ways of euthanasia rather than "suggestions" like it was originally intended.

I respect everyones opinion even if I don't share it.

[infernalis]

first.. THANK YOU both for staying civil, very admirable. ;)


One time I recieved my frozen rodent order and for the heck of it I placed the dry ice block in our chest freezer. (the kind with the door on top)

The dry ice was gone by the next day, however the entire freezer had filled completely with c02 gas.

I opened up the freezer and leaned down to get a package of steaks and as soon as my head was down in the c02 "cloud" I immediatly became overwhelmed with this searing sensation in my eyes and lungs, I almost fell over from just one inhalation of straight c02.

It stung, burned and nausiated all at once.

Back to the shelter comment, I hate it all.. I just love my dogs and cats but at the risk of sounding aweful... One quick gunshot to the head (the way us "country folks" do it)
is the most humane way.

If you do it right, the critter will be dead before it ever hears the gunshot. (that's quick)

[candyraver69]

first.. THANK YOU both for staying civil, very admirable. ;)


One time I recieved my frozen rodent order and for the heck of it I placed the dry ice block in our chest freezer. (the kind with the door on top)

The dry ice was gone by the next day, however the entire freezer had filled completely with c02 gas.

I opened up the freezer and leaned down to get a package of steaks and as soon as my head was down in the c02 "cloud" I immediatly became overwhelmed with this searing sensation in my eyes and lungs, I almost fell over from just one inhalation of straight c02.

It stung, burned and nausiated all at once.

Back to the shelter comment, I hate it all.. I just love my dogs and cats but at the risk of sounding aweful... One quick gunshot to the head (the way us "country folks" do it)
is the most humane way.

If you do it right, the critter will be dead before it ever hears the gunshot. (that's quick)

I hate it all too. There really is no way to put an animal to death that doesn't deserve to die without at least some guilt or sorrow. If it were an easy thing to stomach we wouldn't all get our feelings worked up and debate about it.

What I try to keep in mind is, all of us here love our critters and have the best intension at heart in the way that we do what we do. There are a lot of people in the world that hurt animals on purpose, so if nothing else we should all love and respect that common ground we have as pet lovers whether it's snake lovers or rat lovers or what.

[infernalis]

What I try to keep in mind is, all of us here love our critters and have the best intension at heart in the way that we do what we do. There are a lot of people in the world that hurt animals on purpose, so if nothing else we should all love and respect that common ground we have as pet lovers whether it's snake lovers or rat lovers or what.


Standing ovation......

[ema-leigh]

Yeah when I mean a grain mix... I mean whole grains in bulk at the grocery store - intended for human consumption. Not those commercial rat seed mixes found at Walmart and pet stores. I also wanted to point out that feeding your rats dog food doesn't benefit the snake, unless you were to gut load. (feed right before you kill) Feeding them a good quality rat food will always produce the biggest healthiest rats. Check out my big 2lb boy Oliver.. who is just 9 months old.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs709.snc4/62966_10150257890905394_582470393_14922962_2414632 _n.jpg

I have a lot of respect for snake owners that can show some compassion towards their feeders. I totally agree that there is a margin for error with breaking the neck. There will never really be a nice way to pre kill them, if there was a humane way with Co2 that would be great. You have to remember that rats by instinct are great at hiding pain, so you really need to look closely at studies and see how 'distress' was measured. I am part of two large pet rat forums, here is a link to one of our stickies about using Co2 which contain some good links: The Rat Shack • View topic - Euthanasia using CO2 (http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18828)

[infernalis]

I just got a big bag of raw peanuts.. the rats love them.

I use a lot of corn flakes and bran flakes (human ceral) too.

Whenever I buy fresh carrots from the produce dept... they just love them.

http://www.reptard.info/critters/Ratfood.jpg

This big guy is "Buck" he is freaking huge! He also rules the harem. He's a happy rat.

http://www.mypetforums.com/buck/buck.jpg

[presspirate]

Those rats are huge! And cute as the dickens!

[infernalis]

I just wish they didn't dribble pee all the time.

They need to make little mini depends (diapers) for rats.

[presspirate]

Oh yeah. We had 3 females for a few years, when we let them out of the cage to run around it was pellets and pee everywhere. Although it's much easier to clean than ferret poop. Miss a ferret turd for a few days and it's like chiseling cement. You could build houses from that stuff!

[infernalis]

. Miss a ferret turd for a few days and it's like chiseling cement. You could build houses from that stuff!

who would want to live in that house? not me that's for sure.

although I imagine the taxes would be cheap.

[candyraver69]

Thanks for the links Ema I will check them out :) gorgeous big boy there!

Your buck is gorgeous too Wayne. You must be doing something right. I read somewhere that raw peanuts can be bad for rats but I can't remember where. If I can recall I will link the study. I am sure they are fine in moderation though.

None of my boys are full grown yet except possibly that rescue Lucky (not sure on his age, if he's full grown he's on the small end weighing in at 380 grams). I've been raising girls up until him just as pets except for years and years ago when I bred rats for my pythons. Lucky was way too sweet not to help and so I adopted him planning to neuter him to go with my girls once he was back to good health but he created such a soft-spot for boys in the family that I decided forget the neutering and just got a few baby boys to be his friends and keep a girl cage and a boy cage. (there goes another $300 for a new critter nation double, lol).

SO glad all their quarantines are over so I don't have rat cages scattered all over the house in different rooms :P

here is Lucky hanging with my youngest son while he watched TV. he's a rex so his hair looks all messy :P
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs006.ash2/33651_437820720487_549355487_5292167_4446730_n.jpg

Squizgar, Keerakh, and GusGus shortly after I brought them home. The breeder was letting them go a little young but they are growing fast and doing fine now:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs375.ash2/65316_439311030487_549355487_5324855_3100515_n.jpg

Splinter, who refuses to let me good a good pic of him. He's an odd-eye (one pink and one dark red eye) but he didn't approve of me getting a pic that shows it. He's gonna be a BIG boy like his daddy. He's not quite 2 months now and almost caught up to Lucky in size:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs415.ash2/69359_442403870487_549355487_5383521_1188568_n.jpg

video of my girls learning how to fish for veggies. it's a bit old, I need to take a new one now that they are veterans :P
YouTube - ratties fishing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfOq0GF6QEQ)

[infernalis]

quick question if anyone knows..

I have a litter of rats that was only fed just enough to survive for what ever reason, they are now eating solid food but are tiny like mice...

Does that permanently stunt growth?? will they always be a lot smaller than rats that had unlimited milk as babies?

[Jenn_06]

does that mean anything that one eye is pink and the other eye is dark red, just asking because my breeder male as that.

[ema-leigh]

The tiny babies can catch up with good nutrition! You could give them things like banana, baby rice cereal, baby food, dog food, chicken, tuna, boiled egg.... lots of good fat and a little extra protien to their regular diet.

I would consider removing the odd eyed boy from your breeding program (and related offspring). The gene that causes this.. also causes mega colon. Basically the lighter eye is lighter because the gene stopped pigment working in that area. The same for any white areas on the body. In about 90% of cases the gene affects the insides of the rat as well, mega colon is basically where their intestines don't work and they can't process food or poop right. You will notice these babies, they are sickly looking they don't thrive like the other babies.. they look bloated and their death is very painful for them.
Here is a link for more info on Megacolon: Health Guide: Megacolon (http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/megacolon.php)
Link about the genes + mega colon: White blazes and megacolon (http://www.ratbehavior.org/megacolon.htm)
Pic of a litter of babies, the ones with mega colon are obvious. The other babies in the litter have a 50% chance of getting late on set mega colon when they are 10 months or older.
http://www.spoiledratten.com/_uimages/megacolon2.JPG

[Jenn_06]

thank you for that info,i know nothing is wrong with his colon because that guy can poop alot lol, but i think he will love to be our forever pet rat he is too sweet.

[infernalis]

What factors would cause a mother to just ignore her offspring and let pinkies starve to death??

I'm thinking it may be too many rats in one colony, I have not delivered to the pet store in a while, I really NEED to gather up all the extras that are weaned and get them to the pet shop.

That will not only get me some much needed cash, but drastically reduce my food bill.

[Jenn_06]

we really need to put this as a Sticky, there are alot of info we can use and a place we can ask ?'s/

[infernalis]

done....................

[maitre]

I breed ASF's right now and cannot decide on a decent method of euthanasia. I care for my rats as much as I care for any of my other animals so I really don't want them to suffer : \ They are on 2 different lab diets right now so I am sure they are getting their nutrition. As a supplement, I give them carrots sticks every other day and some mixed bird seed as well. As a snack, I give them whole almonds and walnuts and THEY LOVE THEM haha I have them in a 3:1 set up and they just produced 45 young 1 week ago... so about 15 young per mother.

I am planning on using CO2 because I don't trust myself to break their necks properly. I know 2 people who have worked in university labs (masters and phd students) so I will ask how they did it. In fact, one of them already told me how they did it.. they used injections, followed by decapitation (to do brain slices).

I cannot do lethal injections because my ball python will be eating them. I'm really at a loss here...

[infernalis]

I may get some friction for this, but...

If you do not have the heart to do it, under close supervision constriction is relatively humane, and natural for the snake.

What I do (for "population control") is place them in the BP cage at a younger age, a small weanling is a very quick kill for the python, and it's not "on you" to do the killing.

My BP has never missed the mark and got bitten yet.

However the down side to that is some BP will become fussy and only want to eat live weanlings.. ours is a garbage can and he will eat rats/mice/thawed/live or pre kill, he don't care as long as it's food.

[ema-leigh]

Over crowding could defiantly cause a mother to abandon her pups..or if the mom knows theres something wrong with them she won't waste her resources feeding them. (although I have seen some really good moms try nurse dead babies!) If she has had a few litters back to back, she made need a few weeks break. Or if she is quite young, she may not be mentally mature enough....
To combat the over crowding issue add lots of card board boxes so they have separate nests and they will feel more secure. Make sure they have lots of food as well, moms likes to build a nest and hoard food into stashes so they feel prepared to raise them.

I don't think there will ever be a nice way to pre kill them. I was having the discussion on another pet rat forum and we were debating a few methods. The best we could come up with, which you may like to put into practice and tell me if its okay, is to set up a dark box with a strong modern metal rat trap. You can put a little treat on the rat trap and just put the lid on the box til you hear the rat trap go off. I feel that will give the most efficient way to break the neck and low stress for the animal. What do you guys think?

[infernalis]

Over crowding could defiantly cause a mother to abandon her pups..or if the mom knows theres something wrong with them she won't waste her resources feeding them. (although I have seen some really good moms try nurse dead babies!) If she has had a few litters back to back, she made need a few weeks break. Or if she is quite young, she may not be mentally mature enough....
To combat the over crowding issue add lots of card board boxes so they have separate nests and they will feel more secure. Make sure they have lots of food as well, moms likes to build a nest and hoard food into stashes so they feel prepared to raise them.


Thank you for that post, I will make those changes... It makes perfect sense. ;)

[dragunov.762]

i used a mouse trap on a mouse with a broken back (the mouse was food for my exs corn snake but he wouldnt eat so we put the two mice in with her rat temporarily, the rat loved the mice but rolled on one in her sleep and broke its back so it was in terrible pain) the trap killed in instantly.

[Jenn_06]

we used the mouse trape once and the mouse got hit on the head that was a bloody mess.

[candyraver69]

I've seen some healthy odd-eyes have healthy litters but also heard the horror stories of people losing 1/2 to whole litters to megacolon. It's especially important not to breed high white into hairless because somehow that has an especially bad success rate. down-under markings also cannot be bred to high whites (although I doubt these show up for feeder access do to the rarity).

your best bet is to avoid any rat with white patches on the head or odd-eyes when breeding feeders since you aren't keeping pedigrees to tell high white from recessive blazes.

--------

super small rats could be malnourished but there is also the possibility of dwarfs? Full grown they are slightly larger than gerbils. if they are dwarfs it's recessive so with a lot of inbreeding you would be seeing more pop up if you breed them which may be undesirable for feeders.

[infernalis]

super small rats could be malnourished but there is also the possibility of dwarfs? Full grown they are slightly larger than gerbils. if they are dwarfs it's recessive so with a lot of inbreeding you would be seeing more pop up if you breed them which may be undesirable for feeders.

I watched this one progress, those babies were largely ignored by an inexperienced mom.

And please don't take offense, but the smaller ones are a better fit for my BP than a larger rat would be, so actually, the little runts are ideal feeders for him.

[candyraver69]

Huh, I guess I always just assumed the bigger the better because you could just feed them to the snake younger if they were already the right size. I suppose you have a bigger time frame to work with if they are smaller though before they are too big to feed it. No offense taken :)

[infernalis]

Thanks for understanding ;)

Now if I had a big boa constrictor, then those little rats would be well, too little.

[Jenn_06]

here is a pic of my odd-eye boy, (its before his bath) i already pulled him out and just a pet now, i have to some how find another male now.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/joejenn06/roxy/IMG_1623.jpg

[infernalis]

Oh no the Borg have assimilated!!

Cute fella.

[candyraver69]

He's adorable :D

hope he's not sick, his one eye does look a bit crusty. might be stress related, maybe he's lonely. oh boy the can of worms I opened lol... maybe you could let a young male be a pet too so he's not lonely.

[Jenn_06]

He's adorable :D

hope he's not sick, his one eye does look a bit crusty. might be stress related, maybe he's lonely. oh boy the can of worms I opened lol... maybe you could let a young male be a pet too so he's not lonely.

i took this pic a few days after i got him from the (very unclean) pet store. he was smelly and little nasty. and he was caged with another male(a big no no i was told). i gave him a bath and 100% clean now. i was thinking about getting him fixed so he can have a female friend to play with. we will see.

[infernalis]

Male pairs are OK as long as at least one of them is really young at the time, or littermates are best.

They are so social that a single rat in a cage will be miserable with lonliness. (or so I am lead to believe)

[Jenn_06]

ill get him a friend just looking for a clean place to buy a few, i guess ill get 2 males one for the females and one for the male just hope they dont fight.

[Lankyrob]

When we kept rats years back we always had two male littermates, when one would die we would replace with another two male littermates so would have an adult male and two juvenile males living together.

[candyraver69]

introducing two adult males can be problematic, which is why I suggested a young male. Basically a sexually immature male is not a threat to the adult so he is accepted- by the time he is mature they already are used to each other and best of pals. male adults can be introduced to other male adults it's just a much longer annoying process.

neutering and putting him with a females would be fine too :)

[infernalis]

too bad vets can't perform a vasectomy.

[Jenn_06]

how small should this male be? like a weaned?

[candyraver69]

yeah freshly weaned.

i've always been curious why vets do complete removal instead of vasectomies and tubal ligation. I'd assume on a small animal like a rat it would be really hard because of the tiny organs they would be working on but for dogs?

[Jenn_06]

i guess they are just scared its going to grow back.

[ema-leigh]

The more experienced exotic vets do in fact now do vasectomies! Also if this boy has been alone for a long period of time, you have to consider he may be a little anti social now so I'd introduce him to a slightly older weanling about 6/7 weeks old just in case he gets a little pushy. They won't see babies as threats, but as candyraver said.. adult to adult intros can be trickier.

[jhon woo]

Does she have rat friends? She is probably bored seeing you cant have her out all the time (which is not possible anyways). Rats are very social animals and need a cage mate or two. Right now I have 4 rats, they are the best pets!

[Jenn_06]

he is too busy breeding to care for friends now lol, he is always with a female and is a great dad that helps take care of the babies.