questions about breeding feeders.

[kayleegrace]

okay. it has officially been enough for me. haha i have three snakes. i am only 14 and cant get a job besides babysitting once in a while. sadly. and my folks are not quite into snakes. so i have to use my own money on everything. so 15 bucks a week is getting to be a little much for me. if i have to i can make it happen. however. i am also trying to save for bigger vivs... for all three.
anyway to get to my point. i want to start breeding rats. i pretty much know diddley about breeding anything so... any advice helps...
also something important is temps because they may need to be outside.
if that wont work. i have a few other solutions. but anything helps.

thanks,

Kaylee

[percey39]

Okay rats are incredibly easy to breed. The only time i ever have difficulties is during summer as they wont breed when it is too hot. Other than that i have 2 males and 7 females to share between them, this gets me loads and loads of rats very quickly. You have to have a cage big enough for them to run around in or else they just get fat.
Also you have to clean and feed these guys every day so they are a little bit of work. I use shredded paper as a substrate as its cheap and very easy.

[kayleegrace]

okay what about temps. could i keep them outside all year? we have a shed in the back yard that is pretty much empty. but it stays dry. however where i live winters can be unpredictable.
and what about caging. gee i have more questions than i thought.

[percey39]

I keep my guys out in the shed all year round, during summer i put ice in their water to makes sure its cold. We have a lot of frosts in the mornings here and snow around 40 minutes away during winter, these guys will sleep in a huddle and underneath the shredded paper for warmth.
With cages i have one for a three of my females to go in when they are heavily pregnant, this is only small the other is a 6x2x2 tin cage with a wire roof. I also have a nursary for some of the babies to grow in. A lot of people dont keep them in a cage that size, but i feel they get too fat in anything smaller than that for the amount of adult rats i keep. Between those 9 rats i get plenty more than ineed and end up selling them off to friends for next to nothing. Some of the females have 15 young each time they breed. I have had nearly 100 babies born at the same time by all these females.

[kayleegrace]

Okayso if I am going to breed how many cages do I need?
And in the winter where I live it van get below 10 degrees once In a whilemits below 0.
And what do unthink about tubs. Like the translucent kind with snap shut lids... Very cheap and he hold heat very well... But can they chew through?

And thanks for all the help so far guys it's greatly appreciated

[percey39]

You will need at least 2 cages as you should seperate the females form the males once they are obviously pregnant. The males may eat the young as they want more sex and the females wont be interested.
We have had nights that have hit 0 here this last few weeks and they are all fine, as long as they are not in the open outside with these temps they will be fine.
The plastic tubs could be used, but i would suggest to buy/make a cage from chicken wire or smaller. This stops them from escaping as the last thing your parents will want is a rat infesation as well, also using those could lead to high humidity in summer.

[kayleegrace]

Okay! Well. I have a four ft bp and he eats about 5 in rats. So when the pups get weined do I just put them with the rest of the females or males? And I saw quite a few 20 gallon tanks for sale at the pet store for 20 bucks. They have screen tops and they are glass. Will this work?

[percey39]

Yeah they would be fine for cages for the rats. I would up the size of the rats you feed your bp if he is eating 5 in one go. Once they are weaned i put them in a seperate tank to the adults so they get their food and water as if they are competing like my males always do they get left out. For three snakes one male and three females will keep you in constant supply after you breed the first three litters up. Females are ready to breed straight after dropping a litter.

[kayleegrace]

Okay... So three cages? I am a little confused

[kayleegrace]

Oh and I meant 5 inch rats haha I guess I forgot the inch haha

[Pythonian]

Yeah they would be fine for cages for the rats. I would up the size of the rats you feed your bp if he is eating 5 in one go. Once they are weaned i put them in a seperate tank to the adults so they get their food and water as if they are competing like my males always do they get left out. For three snakes one male and three females will keep you in constant supply after you breed the first three litters up. Females are ready to breed straight after dropping a litter.

I don't think kaylee meant 5 in one go, but 1 5 inch rat :)

[percey39]

Haha oops my bad sorry, i read that totally wrong. I would use three cages as to seperate your weaners from the adults, but its up to you. They would be fine in with the adults but i still seperate mine. Remeber rats breed incredibly quick and as soon as they are done with weaners they will be pregnant a few hours-a day after putting them back with the males.

[kayleegrace]

So I can keep a pregnant female with the other females? And would it work to put a barrier in the male cage and put the weinlings...

[percey39]

Yes females with females are generaly very good together as long as there is plenty of food available they will be fine. The weanlings should be fine with your adults, i have just personally noticed my males compete againts the young ones with food and water. You could put a barrier in, buy another tank or house all together all of these should be fine just watch when you first put the weanlings in.

[kayleegrace]

Okay. That's pretty much all I need to know. Thanks guys.

[annieb_mice]

You CAN keep a colony together in ONE cage without ever having to remove a female. Removing the female simply ensures they don't get bred again right away. If you provide a high quality food, rats can easily be bred back to back with no ill effects on the females. I keep my rats in a colony of 1 male to every 4 - 5 females and have found that the females aren't always pregnant if kept together with the male. The males will also help a LOT with the babies... cleaning them, keeping them warm while the females go off to get food, ect.
IF you can afford the room and extra cages, feel free to separate them. Some breeders have several bins going at the same time with one male for each bin of females and simply rotate the male every 2 - 3 weeks. This provides a good rotation and easily provides a constant supply of rats needed to feed your snakes, without overloading you with tons of babies at any given time. The litters will be spaced far enough apart to allow you to feed off the babies in the first litter as the second litter is being raised, when they reach the appropriate size, you have finished feeding the first litter off and are ready for the second litter. :)
Be warned though, that you will have to buy food and bedding for the rats (I prefer wood stove pellets as bedding as it is very cheap and absorbs much of the odour). If you are having a hard time buying a few rats now, how do you plan to care for a couple of breeding colonies of rats?

[kayleegrace]

now its just a matter of getting my folks to let me....

[percey39]

annieb mice i have had males turn canabalistic on the babies before. This is why i seperate, they always have plenty of food available but still ate a litter.

[annieb_mice]

Percey, what type of food are you feeding? And were the males the fathers? I keep all my colonies together and the only (rare) times I have a problem is when it is the females first litter and they simply don't know what to do... and THEY are the ones who kill the litter, not the males.
Years ago I had problems when I was feeding a cheap dog food (at the recommendation of another feeder breeder) and there simply wasn't enough nutrition so the rats ate some of the babies. Once I realized what was going on and switched foods, no more problems! :D
Take care
Annie

[percey39]

I feed everything from cereal, almonds, sausage mince, dog food and rat pellets. I have heard they eat the young for protein, but i have since never kept the males with my females after they drop a litter and have had no problems what so ever.

[totheend]

I agree with Annie, the males shouldn't eat the young. I would say that they were lacking in nutrition possibly. I have never had a male eat their young.

[kayleegrace]

well if i do get some breeders goin i will get two tanks. with 3 females and 1 male. i will put the female into the male cage and let them do their thing. after about 24 hours i will put a barrier in the male cage for the mother to nest.

i think that will work. however i have a few questions.

when should i start the next female and so forth. to feed three snakes. my carpet eats pinkies. bp well he he adult mice but i am going to move him onto rats. i don't know what size quite yet. if u have any suggestments that would be great. and finally my pastel bp eats 5 in rats.
so maybe i should put a barrier in both cages allowing each female and male to have their own space... wait but then where do the pups go... oh so very confusing.

[kayleegrace]

it is possible i am over thinking this. i tend to do that quite often.

[percey39]

I would put the 3 females straight in with the male. I would seperate when the females are heavily pregnant but thats just me. I would breed all three straight away so you can get some pinkies straight away and get another lot on the go for your bp's. When breeding pinkies its a very quick process as you just throw the female straight back with the male after dropping then wait a few weeks and repeat the process.
In the end its very simple to breed both rats and mice and ends up saving you lots after the first few breedings, as you make the initial outlay back you spent on the rats and cages.

[emseeKAY]

are you feeding live? or f/k? or f/t? thats something to look at as well, someone on here had a very good tutorial on how to make a cheap co2 chamber for the feeders etc. i think it was Mykee on his website. just a suggestion

[kayleegrace]

i feed live. but all this was for nothing because my mom....wont let me. and i still have to pay for ones from the pet store. goodness. i don't understand.

[kayleegrace]

my dad and i are going to try to convince her. but i don't know what will happen. ill keep u guys posted

[percey39]

I hope you can convince her as the savings are incredible

[kayleegrace]

Yea me too. But she thinks it is tourturing them. I don't see how. Theyvprobably get better care with me than at the pet store

[Paradise]

I spoke to feeder breeder that I know and he actually tested a few of his trios with different food types and he found that the higher the protein content of the feeder food (specially mice) the higher his rate of cannibalism was. He now feeds mice mouse food (dry pellets much like rabbit pellets only smaller) with selected greens and the odd fruit and his rats eat pretty much the same thing but they don't seem to be affected by a high protein content foods in the same way as the mice.

but that is hear say I have absolutely no proof of this being the truth.

[annieb_mice]

Why are you feeding live? Why don't you try to switch to frozen? There are a number of excellent feeder breeders who have far better quality rodents than anything you'll find at a pet store and for far cheaper.
As for torturing them... how would you feel about having your ribs crushed and slowly having the life squeezed out of you? It's not in the way you are raising them... it's how you allow them to die that is the problem. There are some snakes, like ball pythons, which can be very finicky, but MOST snakes will switch to FT with little to no problems if you have the patience to do so.

[emseeKAY]

Well said annieb. i always advocate for F/T since i know that there will be no parasites and it will not injure or kill my snake. also as far as i know in the UK it is illegal to feed live as it is considered animal cruelty. the only exception being if the snake will not take f/t but the idea is to get it eating f/t asap.

overall it is all personal preference but i still suggest f/t to newbies and experienced keepers alike. i just personally dislike the idea of feeding live.