would you use a jag with neuro problem to breed?

[Freebody]

would you use a snake you were told was perfectly healthy and then find out the breeding pair you got, the jag male you got has neuro problems and still keep them and breed them or would you call the breeder which was selling the perfectly healthy mature breeding pair and say i want my money back? i really like them but i only got them on my credit card so i can breed them this year and make my money back as well as having the 2 snakes that i have been wanting to buy someday as well as finnaly enjoy the whole breeding process. im not sure what to do but im thinking it would be the more moral thing to return them even know im going to miss them and not make money on them, i could do as he did buy them breed them once and sell them again, but i dont really like the idea of breeding new snakes from a bloodline i know is bad.... hmm what would you do?

[Da Beast]

get your cash back if you can

[infernalis]

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

[Da Beast]

what store/breeder did you buy the snakes from

[infernalis]

what store/breeder did you buy the snakes from


I will allow an answer, but be advised we are not the BOI. so please no bashing.

[Freebody]

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.
i dont like the idea either. he said he only had them a few months before breed them so i dont want to go saying hes trashy breeder yet, we will se how he resolves the issue first, he may not been aware and is sorry and gives my cash back with no problems. time will tell i just sent him an email to trade males if hes got one or give my money back on both.

[infernalis]

Good luck!! fingers crossed.

[Da Beast]

BOI????? wasn't planning on any bashing, wandering cause i live close to Freebody and if they wont give a warranty on there animals i want to stay away from them

[percey39]

I would not breed them myself as i believe the same as Wayne does. In saying that there are numerous jags being bred with this issue and an incredible number of jags with neuro issues out there. It is very common as Shaun has said in both jags and spider morphs. Also i have heard of issues similar with consistant line breeding, but in saying that there is a hell of a lot of snakes that if you traced back bloodlines would be inbred and over time. Say you buy a pair from two different breeders there is a fair chance these snakes could be related.
Good luck if you try to return the snakes, as i know first hand there are some nasty people in this hobby.

[Freebody]

thats why i was thinking about keeping them as i could get a different jag that has no signs and then turns out to be the brother of the snake im giving up lol and i hate the idea of giving them back to this guy that had them in such tiny cages. the femal is a beautifull bredle and hes real nice looking as well.i would like to just breed them once and keep them but im not sure if i can in good concsience,if i do and worst come to play, i would feel terrible knowing it could have been avoided. well he has not messaged me back yet and he said he had bread her to 2 different males this year for the clutch of eggs he took from this pair, why i dont know but he may trade for the other jag male if it was his.i hate the idea of giving them up now that i got them home and held them and had names for them already :( i got a big heart when it come to animals.i might keep them anyways poor snakes need some loving 2,specially a slightly brain damaged one, its really rather slight neuro problems, but he does have it.

[bladeblaster]

The jag neuro issue is not bloodline related, it crops up in any jag. Also breeding from an animal that displays the trait does not mean that the offspring will show the trait, conversely breeding from animals that don;t show the trait can produce offspring that do show the trait.

If you are going to breed jags its just something that you just have to accept. I personally believe that pretty much all jags carry the problem its just that some are so slight that you can't really notice it, but trust me its there.

To add to that, animals that show no signs of the problem as hatchlings can develop increased signs as the get older, and also (alhtough rarer) hatchlings that display syptoms can improve as they get older.

Persoanlly I took quite a time to reconcile what I thought was morally the right thing to do before producing jags, however having worked with adult snakes that have quite pronounced symptoms, they lead a perfectly good life (in my opinion), they certainly don't seem distressed or disadvantaged at all, they eat well, shed well, climb well, breed, are as calm and relaxed as anyother caret python. So in my own mind at least I am happy to produce Jags.

There are others that disagree, and I respect that opinion, although most of the people who are dead against Jags, have never actually worked with animals that display the issue.

[Lankyrob]

Just one thing - as you used your credit card and received "defective goods" you are insured and can get legal advice from the credit card company. May be a route to a solution should you not get any joy direct from the breeder.

[.: Laura :.]

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.


I completely agree

[bladeblaster]

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.

I completely agree

but what constitutes a 'defective' gene? Albinism is a result of 'defective' / 'abnormal' genes, as is every other mutation.

What it comes down to the the quality of life we percieve the animal to have with these defective genes, and that is very much opinion based.

[infernalis]

"defective" = Neuro problems, kinked spine, reproductive problems,.......

Any genetic trait that would cause the animal or it's offspring to suffer.

Another problem no one seems to be thinking about, what if the condition skips a generation, the next litter could have the defective babies, is the next person going to be kind? are they going to just keep on breeding? are they going to flush a batch of deformed babies down the toilet??

[Will0W783]

Actually, the neuro problems in jag carpets is very similar to the neuro problems in the spider ball python. Every jag will have it to some degree, but some it's so mild that it is barely noticeable. Like Bladeblaster said, breeding a jag that displays the neuro issues does not mean they will be passed on to the offspring; conversely breeding a jag that has no noticeable neuro issues does not mean that the offspring won't. The issues do not really harm the animals as long as they can still eat and function, which 99% of them can. If you do a search on YouTube you can see videos of the neuro affected snakes. How bad is it- does he just spin around in his cage constantly, or is it more when he's excited? My spider ball is fine until feeding time, then he gets really excited and his head goes all nuts and wobbly. He's still able to eat and move and he's overall a happy snake. In the end it's your choice, but know that his babies might just well be fine and another jag won't guarantee you'll get perfect babies. It's the jag mutation that is linked to the neuro problems, so any jag can and does to some degree have the problems.

[Freebody]

i have been doing reading on the matter on the internet because i realy do want to keep these 2 snakes and it seems you 2 are right willow and bladeblaster. his neuro issies are very minor, he moves around like any normal snake but somtimes when he reaches upwards he goes back 2 far and instead of falling back his head goes back and he becomes inverted for a few seconds, he has no twitch or any other symptom. im going to keep the poor fellow as it seems its more of a jag carpet problem vrs an individual snakes problem which can be 100% avoided for offspring. for the record Home Page (http://www.shpreptiles.com/) has not contacted me back yet. ill post if he does and ill tell him im keeping them both. cant get rid of bonnie and clyde now, they have names :P

[Will0W783]

Haha, yeah once you name them you're stuck. I've named all my animals, and it becomes that much harder to sell them after. It sounds like your jag will be fine, and you did get a great deal on them. I'm personally torn as to a deal myself right now. A guy is selling a male super dwarf retic for a really really good price (proven breeder) but I have noo idea where I could put it right now, as I've filled up all my cages and would have to buy another cage for this guy or sell some more snakes. The ones I have for sale are in my rack so that wouldn't clear up space anyway...what to do, what to do?

[marvelfreak]

You make the big money just buy another cage. lol You'll make your money back when you breed him to your female. Don't let the chance to get her a boyfriend pass. Then when you have a bunch of babies to sell maybe i can buy one of you.

[Freebody]

ya, buy that snake for sure,cages are cheep if you build them yourself :)

[Will0W783]

Well we'll see. I wish I made big money..I'm a Ph.D. student so things are always tight. I'm going to see if the guy gets back to me with pictures. I emailed him asking for pics. So we will see.

[Freebody]

ah seen the breeder online and i sent him pm again and instantly sent me a email back ,then instantly called my cell phone which i missed by a couple seconds then instantly called my home phone which i picked up he offered to take it back or trade and explained all the info which we have covered on the fact of neuro jags and stuff and swears up and down he did not recieve my email or he would have called the other day just as fast. he seem very sincere about the jag but at this point im keeping clyde so i just wanted to let yall know he does seem to be a stand up guy :)

[marvelfreak]

Well we'll see. I wish I made big money..I'm a Ph.D. student so things are always tight. I'm going to see if the guy gets back to me with pictures. I emailed him asking for pics. So we will see.
I know i was just joking with you. So any news about getting it?

[marvelfreak]

ah seen the breeder online and i sent him pm again and instantly sent me a email back ,then instantly called my cell phone which i missed by a couple seconds then instantly called my home phone which i picked up he offered to take it back or trade and explained all the info which we have covered on the fact of neuro jags and stuff and swears up and down he did not recieve my email or he would have called the other day just as fast. he seem very sincere about the jag but at this point im keeping clyde so i just wanted to let yall know he does seem to be a stand up guy :)
That cool. Can't wait to see more pics.

[percey39]

Good news mate sounds like a nice guy. I have dealt with complete a-holes before and it has destroyed my faith in most.

[Freebody]

thx percey :) and i know what you mean, i live in hell damn near. so much crime around here and shooting from all the gangs and stuff, getting ripped off and dealing with people doing it,is a day to day activity.

[shaunyboy]

Myself, I would never breed any animal that could possibly pass a defective gene on to it's offspring.

But that's just me.


imo you would never breed a jag if you applied that theory to them mate.imo there is always a risk of neuro with the offspring.spider balls have a similar issue.ive read the original spider was a wild caught speciman thats still living.after it passes im sure a full set of tests will be done to see if it sheds some light on the problem.some say theres a part of the brain missing others put it down to a chromosone problem.guess we will have to wait and see the outcome of a post mortem.

to be honest i probaly would breed once.then once i seen the outcome that would answer my question of do i breed it again or sell it on as a pet.

at one end of the scale full corkscrews which imo is bound to affect the snake in questions day to day life.

the other end of the scale slight head wobbles imo does not affect the day to day life of the snake.

most jags show some degree of neuro issues.i am currently speaking to a guy in europe that knows the guy (jan eric engell) who made the first jag.he wreckons none of jans jags show any neuro issues.he puts it down to jans bloodlines have not been bred back to each other (jag to jag).also most jags that started the jag thing were from jag to jag breeding.his theory is when breeding jag to jag you create supers (leucistic jaguars).the longest a leucy has survived is a few hours out the egg.he wreckons its a chromosone problem.that chromosone problem is passed to any jags produced in that pairing.so manifests itself as the jag neuro issue.

where in the states and europe in general the bloodlines have been bred back to themselves so many times its created this neuro issue.

re you breeding yours

i have heard of jags with bad neuro signs creating jags with no or slight neuro signs.

i have also heard of jags showing next to no neuro signs creating hatchlings that show a lot of neuro issues.

from what i can gather you really cannot predict the outcome.

imo its seems to be bothering you mate.so why not try and get your cash back from the guy.he did after all say they were healthy snakes.the neuro thing is a health issue so if he's decent he will refund you.i'm thinking that since he was'nt honest enough to tell you in the first place that he may not be the best guy in the world to get a refund from.

i hope you get things sorted mate.

all the best shaun

just read the rest of your thread and its all sorted.glad your happy mate.

[Freebody]

ya he called me back and offered a refund and told me exactly the same thing you did,he said he missed my 1st email and he emailed back called my cell and then my home in seconds after i sent the seconds email,said in any way im not happy hes got no problem taking it back, said he absolutly does not want any unhappy constumers and is more than willing to do what he can to make me happy because i had mentioned a trade for a different male if he had one, he said he didnt say anything about the jag/spider neuro problems because it kinda slipped his mind to say anything about it as is well known they all have signs of it, and apoligised again.he used him to breed 2 clutches now and they all came out fine,he did sound sincere on the phone and did ask a few time are you sure you want to keep them if it bothers me. it doesnt realy bother me now ,well the fact the breeds have a problem does obviously, its sad, but "clyde" has a mild case of it,and he seems perfectly happy which makes me happy to have him. it seems jags are what you said 100%. i was concerned about it being a single isolated case, as in just my snake has it, then i would not breed it like infenalis said, i told the guy im keeping them,and all is well, hes doing great and so is the other snake i got :) ill breed him, doesnt sound fail me denying my friend a little tail once in a while :P lol

[Pythonian]

Are neurological disorders genetic though? or perhaps just random bad luck? I would be very cautious to say all neurological disorders are genetic. With some research to which are and which aren't... it may be safe to breed.

[shaunyboy]

Are neurological disorders genetic though? or perhaps just random bad luck? I would be very cautious to say all neurological disorders are genetic. With some research to which are and which aren't... it may be safe to breed.


as far as i'm aware its only the jaguar python out of all the carpets that show signs of neurological issues.

its seems to be related to the jag gene.

although as said ive spoke recently to a guy who knows the man who created the first jag.his do not show any neuro issues.the dude i spoke to wreckons its an inbreeding thing.i'm starting to feel he may be right.

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Marvelfreak, sorry it took me so long to respond. My little brother was visiting and kept staying another day and another day..lol. I know you were joking...sometimes it sucks being a poor student though. I just passed my candidacy qualifying exam, so in the next 6 months I have to give them a thesis proposal detailing the work I intend to do and what I've done so far. Then once they accept that, it's probably another year or two until I'm done. So 3 more years most likely.

As for the sd retic, the guy finally posted pictures, but said he had a buyer already. I was rather peeved...I mean, I'd been emailing him saying I was interested and asked for pics and was the first to respond. But oh well. On another note, someone nearby me is selling a 9 foot male dwarf tiger retic for only $150 with cage and accessories. I need to find out if he still has it, because if he does, I am sooo all over that!

[Freebody]

dwarf tiger retic :Wow: i wish that was in canada i would be all over that as well. what are you going to school for btw? i take it your becoming a doctor? GRATS on passing your exam!! i hope you do very well with your career :)

[shaunyboy]

congratulations on your exams kimberley

if you look hard enough in every bad situation there is always some good

that would be the bargan you've just been offered

re all your hard work

i'm sure you'll have a fascinating career pal

cheers shaun