Thoughts on female breeding size and weight....

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well, its common advice for breeders to say to newbies that the min. weight for females ahould be 1500g and about 4 feet long. Well, this female was 1290g and gave 5 perfect eggs this past summer. Now, 5 months later, she is 2150G and will probably go again this winter.

So is this an extreme observation that should be treated as such, or should we rethink this constraint that we've put on min. breeding weight for Ball Pythons?

Thoughts?

http://members.shaw.ca/uploaded_pics/BF5%20001.jpg

[Lisa]

I think the minimum is a guideline, you probably can have some success breeding sooner depending on the snake but with the risk of hurting the snake I'd sooner just wait. Just like any other animal (even humans) everyone is different and will be ready at their own time.

[BigDan]

Hello Jeff

I have a german BP book and in it they have some stats on many wild female balls which were captured and allowed to lay their eggs at a BP ranch or farm. These females were carrying eggs at the time of their capture they were not bred at the farm.

The stats included length, weight and how many eggs were laid from each female. One interesting observation was that many of the females which were laying eggs were under the 1500 gram mark. Many were 1200, 1300 and even down to 1100. One female I think was 1050 and produced 6 eggs.

I think 1500 is still a good guideline but I am sure if you breed a 1200 or 1300 gram female which is nice and plump and healthy then you should be O.K. If the animals in the wild are breeding and producing eggs at this weight then I would think it is natural.

I have also spoken to quite a few breeders in the U.S. which use 1200 as a guideline for their animals.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan

[Jeff_Favelle]

Lisa and Dan, excellent posts! Thanks. Good stuff. :D

[BoidKeeper]

After reading the Ball Python Manual, The Guide To Owning Ball Pythons and watching Dr. Seawards Breeding Ball Python video about a hundred times I think I like the Sutherlands suggestions best. The Sutherlands have been breeding BPs exclusively for years and they say 1500g at 4 feet for "first time" breeding efforts. The key is first time. Then again, a snake that is 5 feet would need to weigh closer to 2000g. It’s all about slugs according to them. Fat reserves equals eggs. The healthier the fat reserves the more likely she will be to produce a healthy clutch. I'm sure that after years of breeding BP's and keeping close records they have found that 1500g at 4 feet is just what has proven to be the most successful for them. I personally would not hesitate to try a 3 or 4-year-old ball that was 4' and 1300g. I more concerned with my females becoming egg bound then I am with them passing slugs.
My two cents,
Trevor

[Joe]

they have brought in 800 and some gram females from africa that have laid perfectly good eggs,,,just because they can doesn't mean they should, in my opinion give it some time

[Corey Woods]

About 10 years ago the recommended minimum breeding weight for females was 1000g's and some were successfully bred at that weight. However, some females also became egg/slug bound and as a result either died or were never breedable again. So, they raised the minumum breeding weight to 1500g's.

There are many factors which determine whether or not a female is healthy enough to produce a viable clutch of eggs. Size and addiquate weight and the major ones but there are others such as overall health and age of the snake. It has been my personal experience that a younger snake has to be larger and heavier for their first time breeding than an older/smaller female.

The way I look at things is that if the animal is healthy and has proper fat stores they will know if they are adequately prepared to produce eggs.

Corey
P.S. The average size of CB Balls in North America is 70-90g's with some hatchlings comming out of the egg at over 100g's. The average weight for a CH Ball in Africa is in around 55g's with some hatching out as small as 25 g's. So, the Balls produced in Africa, on average, are smaller than the ones produced in North America which is most likey caused by the females being used being smaller and less healthy than the ones in Captivity. In the book mentioned above with regards to females producing eggs in Africa there is a report of a female ball producing 10 eggs at 910g's.......you can bet that those eggs were extremely small!!!!!! I usually only get 10 egg clutches out of females that are between 2800-4000g's.

[rsquared]

What age/weight is reccommended for a male?

[Corey Woods]

Some males will breed at 6 months of age and 400g's with 100% fertility. However, the older and larger the male the better breeder he will be. If you can get a younger male up over 650-850g's then he should breed a couple females. If the male is larger and over 1200-1500g's then he could breed upwards of 10 females will 100% fertility.

Corey

[Jeff_Favelle]

Corey, its weird how perceptions and ideas change through time isn't it? I mean, its not like the Balls themselves have evolved, ha ha. In guess it good as the information is being kept current and is constantly being refined. I just find it odd that it would change, even though people were getting the same results! :D

[Corey Woods]

Jeff,

Things are always changing and being refined. If you had asked someone 15 years ago about breeding ball pythons they would have said that it was impossible! Look at it now......it's extremely easy!

Today, Boelons pythons are next to impossible to breed. If history repeats itself I would say in 10 years you'll have 14 year old doing it like clock work!

Corey

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha, totally!


Now be realistic for a sec. Think Boelens will ever be eays to breed? I think there must be something we're just not seeing (and its probably right in front of our eyes) regarding Boelens and Timors.

[Corey Woods]

Jeff,

Personally speaking I believe that people are not cooling them enough for successful breeding. They come from the mountains anywhere from 2500-5000 feet (or is that meters??) above sea level where it gets extremely cold at night and not all that warm in the day. If I were to try breeding them I would set them up similar to the diamond pythons where you actually hybernate them (at in around 60-65F if I'm not mistaken).

I think why people haven't bred them yet is that they are affraid to cool them that low for fear of killing them. Who wants to take a snake they paid anywhere from 1500-10,000 US and hybernate them. Also, I think they are keeping them too hot in the day as well. I would be more inclined to give them 75-80F max during the day. They are a black snake which come from high in the mountains. They are black for a reason.......they need to soak up all the heat that they can get.

I would also continue feeding them throughout the entire year as well. Most people when breeding pythons stop feeding them during the winter months. In my experience that is not the best thing to do as you increase you chances of successfully reproducing them if the females maintain a healthy body weight.

This is how I would do it. In 5 years we may look back and laugh at this as I maybe way off.

Corey

[Jeff_Favelle]

I was thinking the same thing. There's a reason Boelen's are completely black. I have a feeling that they are kind of like Diamonds. People kept Diamonds waay too hot and they fried them. You'd think that someone would have already though of this (Barkers) and implemented breeding strategies by now?


Ha ha, we should totally revisit this conversation in 5 years, 10 years. It might be good for a laugh.