integrades and hybrids

[Nafun]

edit by Wayne: I moved this discussion from it's original location as it had completely derailed another thread. ;)

I really don't understand the bias against integrades and hybrids among garters. People breed carpet python integrades all the time. Corn/milk/king/whatever hybrids are pretty common too. A snake is a snake is a snake in my opinion. I would think experimenting with hybrids and integrades to get unusual colors and patterns would be more humane than line breeding for recessive traits.

[emseeKAY]

I know what you mean, i've always thought the same thing i guess just never gotten around to asking it lol, although many will say that carpets integrades occur naturally whereas a milk/corn/king hybrid would most likely never happen in the wild.

[Nafun]

Animals like to ****. If my dog will have sex with my couch, I have to believe that two related snake subspecies occasionally get it on as well.

[infernalis]

right, but where these Nazis have a problem is when two snakes that would never ever meet in the wild get placed in the same cage.

[shaunyboy]

I made the mistake of talking about live feeding on a aussie forum.:no: Not knowing it's illegal down there. :no:Man did they tear into me.


probaly the same auussie forum that i started a thread titled " hybrid bullys " it was a poor 19 year old girl jagprincess on here that inspired me to do it.she put a pic up of her gorgeous jungle/jaguar and took serious abuse from grown men.they even pm'd the girl ripping into her.men got banned from the forum it got that bad.they removed my thread hours later.i pm'd the mods asking whats the score ? they replied they had moved the thread to a part of the forum only mod's could see as it was a bit contriversial.they also said the hybrid arguements had all been done before.i said mines was about getting personal with a young girl to the point of sending her horrible pm's.i told him they would have as been as well to delete the thread as i did not see the point of the 5 or 6 mods being the only ones able to see it.in the end i told them they run their forum like the chinese government run china.needless to say ive not been back on since.i can hand on heart honestly say it was the worst forum ive ever been on.i thought where better to learn about australian morelia than an australian forum.im afraid imo 90% of them were plonkers and pretty clueless and arragant with it.percey39 on here was one of the good guys on it i may add.the rest well as said not very nice folk.
cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

I really don't understand the bias against integrades and hybrids among garters. People breed carpet python integrades all the time. Corn/milk/king/whatever hybrids are pretty common too. A snake is a snake is a snake in my opinion. I would think experimenting with hybrids and integrades to get unusual colors and patterns would be more humane than line breeding for recessive traits.


try saying that on an australian forum about carpet pythons.they want to burn you at the stake ...!! :yes:
its not so much " natural occurring intergrades " but if you dare put 2 carpet pythons together that would have never geographically met in the wild and they're away to get the matches and some rope to tie you to said stake.....!!! :yes:
cheers shaun

[percey39]

Ahh that thread shaun, yeah they really did act childish and take it out on poor jane. We have some very very strong minded/arrogant herpers over here that would kill at the idea of crossing. I for one will never cross breed myself, but i do find it rather interesting and some of the results can be mind blowing. Especially some the ones being produce in america and europe, a lot of you guys seem to love the hybrid side of the hobby. As long as the people cross breeding lable their animals as such there should not be a problem. Its only when some people try and pass off hybrids as pure lines that things can really turn sour for the herping community as whole. I would hate to see pure lines lost as a result of a group of selfish people lying and stealing off inexperienced keepers.
On another note shaun and jane it has been very interesting seeing how many of the people that had a go at you guy's have now changed their tune on that site. Since they are legally allowed to cross breed in some states here now, plenty of the arrogant aholes are now talking about hybrids and future plans on crosses. Oh how things change and so very quick if may add too.
That forum you have all had trouble with like to lynch people for pathetic little differences. I have brought up the live feeding debate for hatchling snakes as i have found sometimes only this will work. I got burned at the stake for that and have learnt not to share too many personal experiences on that particular forum.

[shaunyboy]

well said percey mate.

you pretty much nailed it mate,as long as its organised and honest then pure lines remain uneffected.

as you know i keep both and feel very strongly about putting anything other than a pure diamond to a pure diamond female.if i disagree with sometghing i say what i think then try to justify it as much as i can.everyone is different and thats great.its the idiots that take it to a whole other level with personal attacks.i wonder if the main guys in the attack on jane would have been so keen if her father was standing next to them.i chose my percentages very carefully mate.there were about 10% of you who were very decent,knowledgable and helpfull.brian i think the mods name was i e mailed (the first guy in the list of mods,think he had a jungle headshot as his avatar).he actually agreed with me and said the guys in question were idiots.my thread had been removed before i got a chance to read it but i think jane saw some of it.

its good news their relaxing the laws over there

cheers shaun

[percey39]

Nice and helpful people are few and far between on that site, its a shame as it would be a good place for people like yourself and others starting out to get useful information on some of the australian species.
Honesty thats the key i believe with hybrids. It will be very hard to controll who breeds what and what they will be selling them as. This is where we could come unstuck as we all know there are people out there that are only in it to make a quick buck and dont care about falsifying lines to new keepers. I just hope that people will stay honest and attempt to keep pure lines of species and locale PURE.

[marvelfreak]

I thought i recognize jagprincess screen name. I remember that thread. It was after that i quit checking it out for a long time. It's also where i recognize percey39. He is one of the good guys shaun. I been checking the site out a bit lately and percey right their tune as changed big time on this topic. Lets face it sSnakeSs by far the freindlys site i found IMO.

[Nafun]

IMO, hybridization of carpets outside of australia is a good thing. Fresh genetic material in such a small gene pool outweighs any perceived loss by creating hybrids.

[Nafun]

Ack, this got split off mid discussion? Now it looks like I brought up hybrid hate, and I'm going to be a lightning rod for the "purists" =P

[infernalis]

Sorry about that, but the discussion seemed to merit it's own thread, and it had deviated mine by a whole page of replies.

Unfortunately the software sorts chronologically, or I could have made an opening post, then moved the thread in, but then my post would have been on the bottom, not the top.

[percey39]

The perceived loss could be said to far out weigh any gains nafun. It would take a long time, but the loss of locale and pure species is a possibility. There will always be breeders who will only breed the pure lines, but the prices will eventually soar for these. Also the market will be flooded with poor looking hybrids, bad quality animals that could perceived as normals by some and may well be sold as that.
I have always wanted to know what people are doing with the less appealing hybrids, as you never really see any one put their hand up and say look what i have produced here. This is where i see the problem has already began, as these dodgy breeders have produced poor quality animals and selling these to newbies or destroying close to whole clutches.
Hybrids are a great thing for the hobby as it will get more people interested in keeping reptiles as some amazing colours/patterns are being produced and will only get better, but they could also destroy it too.

[Lankyrob]

If you compare hybirdization to dogs it seems pretty easy to manage. Those animals that have "pedigree" need to show their ancestry to prove that it is so - any other dog is classed as a mongrel and therefore has no paperwork.

As owners/keepers of snakes or dogs we can make an educated choice to take the cheaper non pedigree model or pay more for an animal with proven ancestry.

I realise there are unscrupulous people out there that will falisfiy ancestry records and maybe that is where we need a governing body along the lines of the Kennel Club.

[percey39]

On the whole its hard to get a pure dog as well, without paying through the nose like i did not so long ago with my english bully. I seen countless pups and sires, all seemed legit they had papers and proof of petigree. Unless you truely know what you are looking for when trying to find pure bred animals you will be ripped off with dogs, snakes and all animals in general. I believe bird keeping in australia went through this and many left the hobby as you were dealing with so called experts with "pure" bred birds.
It will change the way many of us locality specific snakes and pure lines think about he hobby and im sure we will lose some very reputable breeders because of this. As you will be flooded with statements like "why would i pay this much for a jungle, when i can buy a jungle that is also pure down the road for half the price". We all know that a lot of people that have been around for a while will see through the scum, but its new comers to the hobby that it will hurt the most. People are going to be ripped off, projects will be destroyed, reputable breeders will stop breeding and the ability to keep pure lines of aussie species overseas could be lost once the top breeders leave and take their animals with them.
In no way do i hate hybrids or the people that buy them, i can just see there could be major problems in the future. There is definetely a place for hybrids in the hobby, but as i have said unless there is some control of breeding or law placed on them things could turn nasty.

[shaunyboy]

The perceived loss could be said to far out weigh any gains nafun. It would take a long time, but the loss of locale and pure species is a possibility. There will always be breeders who will only breed the pure lines, but the prices will eventually soar for these. Also the market will be flooded with poor looking hybrids, bad quality animals that could perceived as normals by some and may well be sold as that.
I have always wanted to know what people are doing with the less appealing hybrids, as you never really see any one put their hand up and say look what i have produced here. This is where i see the problem has already began, as these dodgy breeders have produced poor quality animals and selling these to newbies or destroying close to whole clutches.
Hybrids are a great thing for the hobby as it will get more people interested in keeping reptiles as some amazing colours/patterns are being produced and will only get better, but they could also destroy it too.

you just described the uk percy.

we're getting lots of jungle/jaguar siblings passed off as PURE jungles.ive lost count of how many threads ive seen on " can you id my carpet " sadly we cant as if you dont know the parents far less the grandparents then their carpet could be made up of any combination.re ugly hatchy's they're getting sold for £30 to £50 and even then imo they are no good for anything other than a pet.lets face it it would defeat the purpose to breed ugly mongeral carpets to produce even more unwanted snakes.

im probaley going to take pelters for what i'm about to say but its the truth so it has to come out.

some people buy something like a black headed python.this is where all the ugly unwanted carpets go mate.into the bhp's dinner menu.i am not guilty of this but it does go on.

i even heard one breeder say oh i just kill the ugly usless ones.for example i said to him this year your trying to produce some diamond/jungle/jaguars what about the siblings you will produce " oh i just kill em "

morelia bloodlines are really bad over here mate.so i hear very clearly what your saying and can sypathise with your plight.

cheers for moving the thread wayne.its a good thread to have up and running on its own.
cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

If you compare hybirdization to dogs it seems pretty easy to manage. Those animals that have "pedigree" need to show their ancestry to prove that it is so - any other dog is classed as a mongrel and therefore has no paperwork.

As owners/keepers of snakes or dogs we can make an educated choice to take the cheaper non pedigree model or pay more for an animal with proven ancestry.

I realise there are unscrupulous people out there that will falisfiy ancestry records and maybe that is where we need a governing body along the lines of the Kennel Club.


that is a great idea rob but the morelia in europe we're talking about all originated from stuff legally exported from australia before 1982.so any records that may have exsisted are long gone.it would be good to do it your way with anything australia lets out the country today.they could be data chipped with locale's,parental bloodlines,etc.all anyone would need to buy is a chip reading machine.that way when they went to pick up a snake they would just have to scan it and would know its history.unfortuanatley re morelia in europe,its a bit like buying a smoke alarm after your house burns down.as said percey its too late imo over here,i hope your governments got a better plan put in place than the europeans mate.

imagine how bad it would be percy if for example all the natural wild diamonds got their bloodlines poulluted.you would have to ask a zoo from within or outside your country to provide specimans to re populate the wild.their hatchlings would succome to interdrades and you would be back to square one.it is a very scary thought mate...!!
cheers shaun

[percey39]

you just described the uk percy.

we're getting lots of jungle/jaguar siblings passed off as PURE jungles.ive lost count of how many threads ive seen on " can you id my carpet " sadly we cant as if you dont know the parents far less the grandparents then their carpet could be made up of any combination.re ugly hatchy's they're getting sold for £30 to £50 and even then imo they are no good for anything other than a pet.lets face it it would defeat the purpose to breed ugly mongeral carpets to produce even more unwanted snakes.

im probaley going to take pelters for what i'm about to say but its the truth so it has to come out.

some people buy something like a black headed python.this is where all the ugly unwanted carpets go mate.into the bhp's dinner menu.i am not guilty of this but it does go on.

i even heard one breeder say oh i just kill the ugly usless ones.for example i said to him this year your trying to produce some diamond/jungle/jaguars what about the siblings you will produce " oh i just kill em "

morelia bloodlines are really bad over here mate.so i hear very clearly what your saying and can sypathise with your plight.

cheers for moving the thread wayne.its a good thread to have up and running on its own.
cheers shaun

I know what your saying mate, I have heard similar stories. We have the same plan your government has, the only thing i fear for over here is people releasing hybrids into wild populations of those species.
There are still pure lines over your way, but i would imagine that prices would be 5 times the amount of others.

[shaunyboy]

I know what your saying mate, I have heard similar stories.


with one of these no one wants hatchy's the way its seems to be looked at is.

if i feed it for 3 or 4 months i will have spent more on food and heating than the snake will ever be worth.on top of that the hatchy's take up a lot of space that could be used for more desirable snakes.so you may get only 5 jags out a clutch of 15,that seems to equal 10 snakes being got rid of a.s.a.p. and the 5 jags being kept or put up for sale.

for the record i neither practise these methods or agree with them.

as harsh as this may sound to you mate.i think the answer over your end of the planet would be to make it very difficult to obtain a breeding license.only the best of honest breeders should be allocated one and then you might stand a chance of keeping your pure bloodlines just that PURE.....!!!

cheers shaun

[percey39]

This is where you notice who has a true love with the animals and who just loves the money!!!

All we have is faith and trust in the people we are buying off.

[shaunyboy]

This is where you notice who has a true love with the animals and who just loves the money!!!

All we have is faith and trust in the people we are buying off.


i remember when i got into snakes thinking snake sellers make used car sales men look like honest decent people ...!!

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

I only deal with a select few breeders myself. That way I know what I am getting.

Psst. wanna buy a het? I'll sell ya a pair really cheap. Oh and in 2 years when they produce a whole litter of normals, I won't even be around anymore to complain to.

[percey39]

I am the same wayne, I dont trust anyone other than people i know well or very reputable breeders who have been around a long time.
I am also the same about showing my entire collection to everyone aswell. As there has been plenty of people lose entire collections after showing people or telling people about what they really have.
Only a selcet few freinds know exactly what i have and i hope it stays that way. I have lost faith in the australian herp community after all the dodgey dealings and thefts.