View Full Version : A matter of conscience
I've got an ethical dilemma.
My sister is a science teacher.
She keeps Painted Turtles (Chrysemys picta) in her classroom during the non summer, and at home during the summer break.
I have been telling her since she got them that these turtles need UVA/UVB light in order to survive. She hasn't listened. She insists that sunlight coming in through the window is sufficient (which we all know is not.)
Today, I found out that their shells have started to come apart.
The answer to this may seem simple and obvious to you, but nothing simple or obvious will work with my sister. She and I are oil and water. I cannot simply buy the lights myself, or I would have done so as soon as she got the turtles. I have offered to take the turtles from her, but she refuses (she hates reptiles.). My sister is bat-guano-fornicating-loco. She overreacts negatively to everything. The surest way to make sure she never gives the turtles appropriate light and heating is to buy her the appropriate lights.
I think I've come up with something that will work. It's going to cause a lot of trouble, but I can't sit by and do nothing anymore.
You cannot keep the turtles she is keeping without a permit in the state of Ohio. She does not have the permit.
I'm going to go to the pet store tonight, buy the appropriate lights, and install them while she's not home and tell her that if she doesn't keep the lights, I'll report her to the department of fish & wildlife. (Trespass isn't an issue, she lives with our mom.)
I'm drawing a line in the sand. I can't sit back and watch four innocent turtles die because my sister refuses to take advice from me.
Wish me luck. I'll need it.
Lankyrob
06-02-10, 03:42 PM
Nafun - reading your dilemma (before i got to your solution) i was thinking to myself "report her". At the end of the day she can choose her way of living - the animals cannot and need protecting.
I have sisters too - one of which is also oil to my water - i have reported her to the police for DUI before - not nice and the consequences had to be dealt with but sometimes thses things have to be done.
infernalis
06-02-10, 04:53 PM
You have my best wishes and support.
emseeKAY
06-02-10, 04:55 PM
same here, would have done the same if i were in your boat!
marvelfreak
06-02-10, 06:09 PM
Best wishes hope it all goes well.
dragunov.762
06-02-10, 06:16 PM
i am pretty sure you can keep red ear sliders in Ohio. I see them at pet stores all the time. if not then it is easy to buy them illegally.
marvelfreak
06-02-10, 06:27 PM
Back in the 70s they past a law banning the sale of all turtles in pet stores in the U.S. But i see them all the time in pet stores.
The law is turtles under 4 inches.
The painted turtles are legal to be kept in ohio, but not without permit.
Anyway, apparently my sister panicked when she saw that there was actual damage to the turtles' shells and installed lights on the aquariums, but she used normal household bulbs... so I just replaced the bulbs with full spectrum uvb, so with luck she won't even notice.
I also dropped off 20 feeder goldfish, they were a big hit. I'll be dropping off feeder fish once a week until my sister gets the hint and accepts that they need a varied diet, not just turtle food.
Good luck Nafun, I admire your tenacity. If you`re as single minded and matter of fact as you can be, then follow through IMMEDEATLY with your threat if she takes the lights away, the turtles should be ok shouldn`t they. Good on you! May I suggest downloading a LOAD of information about the tutles, specifically thier need for the correct lighting and heating, and leaving all this information behind when you do the lighting. She may say she hasn`t read it but if nobody is there watching her, I bet she will. I`ve got to say though mate, she shouldn`t be a teacher let alone a science teacher if she`s carrying on like this when there`s innocent animals at stake. She certainly does sound like she`s a pupil short of the full class.....
She teaches physical science and biology at a high school level. She was a vet major, but changed majors because she couldn't handle the practical (farmyard) aspect of it. She thought it was all going to be puppies and kittens. A true example of the axiom "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
The root of the whole problem is that we've been polar opposites our whole lives, and if I love something, she hates it. She won't listen to anything I say because she resents the hell out of my eidetic memory and it galls her that I know more about science than she does, when she's the one with the master's degree.
I think I will print out a care sheet for the turtles though. If nothing else it gives me added evidence in the event she refuses to care for them properly. She will have a much harder time claiming ignorance about their needs if she has it in writing.
When I delivered the lights and fish, my mother told me "I don't know why you brought those fish. I asked your sister about fish and she said they won't eat them." It warmed my heart to watch each and every one of the turtles going absolutely mad catching and eating fish to their heart's content.
In any event, I'll be checking on the lights and delivering fish every week.
Paradise
06-03-10, 07:50 AM
Yeah best of luck to you and those turtles, the poor things...
She will come to understand that it is the right thing to do when she sees the reaction of the shell and the coloring under the correct lighting.
I know nothing about laws in the US but in SA certain turtles can be sold in certain areas if accompanied by a certificate / license. JIP that is correct in South Africa we give the turtle the license. I think it might be because humans are irresponsible and keep losing the things. lol may be its just me but I find it very funny.
Paradise
06-03-10, 07:59 AM
I know nothing about laws in the US but in SA certain turtles can be sold in certain areas if accompanied by a certificate / license. JIP that is correct in South Africa we give the turtle the license. I think it might be because humans are irresponsible and keep losing the things. lol may be its just me but I find it very funny.
Ok I was a little unclear here this is not what the law says but how turtles in this country are marketed. according to the written law you need to apply for a permit for each turtle in your possession. CB turtles are issued a certificate stating they were captive bred. pet store owners are selling the turtles with the certificate from the breeder as a permit to keep the turtle.
I don't know about anyone else but before I take an animal as a pet I research it to make sure I have everything I need to care for it properly and legally. :confused: once again maybe its just me
shaunyboy
06-03-10, 08:09 AM
nafun,like big rob as i was reading your post,i was thinking bite the bullet and report her.yes your not going to be popular for doing this.but at the end of the day you have to stand up for what you believe in.i must admit im pretty shocked at your sisters attitude especially with what she does for a living.on top of that you were offering to pay for the equiptment.ive only got one sister and its not so much a case of oil and water with us.its more petrol and matches,we never see eye to eye.this does not stop us both doing whats neccessary to keep each other right.i take my hat of to you mate,its an admirable thing your doing.i just hope she accepts the lights and the poor wee turttles get better.
all the best
shaun
Yeeeeah report her to the authorities or a hitman or something lol :no:
If my carpet doesn't lose it's last bit of retained shed this weekend she's going to the vet. If that happens, I think I'll abduct one of the turtles and take it too. Once the summer is over and the turtles go back to her classroom I won't be able to watch over them. Hopefully a veterinary diagnosis of mbd will open her eyes and she'll realize I actually do know what I'm talking about.
infernalis
06-04-10, 05:35 AM
Good luck.
citysnakes
06-04-10, 08:46 AM
Nafun, youre going to take your carpet to the vet for a little bit of retained shed?
it seems like you want to report your sister because of a brotherly grudge rather than actual concern for these turtles.
you said that the shells are "coming apart", are you sure that these things are not just shedding and growing regardless of a lack of UV lighting.
what strength UV bulbs did you get and how far away from the turtles did you position them?
i personally would not report a family member for anything especially since you can have, and already have had, an effect on the situation even if you cannot get along with your sibling.
shaunyboy
06-04-10, 09:13 AM
nafun,give the tails a wee soak then gently try rubbing it off with your fingers.it shouldnt give you too much resistence.watch the scales as you peel the shed.they should not have too much strain on them and imediately fall back into place as the shed comes off.if its giving you too much resistance then try soaking the tail with ky jelly.its a water based moisturising jelly.id apply it to the tail put your snake in a tub with no substrate for a few hours.this should soften up the shed so you can get it off.its important not to leave retained shed on the tail as it can lead to the blood getting restricted and that part of the tail dieing.any where apart from eyecaps and tail i dont worry about too much.the tail probaly most important to remove asap of all retained sheds.i bought a young carpet that had roughly 4mm of the tip of her tail missing due to the breeder over looking a piece of retained shed.
cheers shaun
infernalis
06-04-10, 09:24 AM
For the stuck shed, I have found that a wet washcloth and some persistence can get that off.
Nafun, youre going to take your carpet to the vet for a little bit of retained shed?
it seems like you want to report your sister because of a brotherly grudge rather than actual concern for these turtles.
you said that the shells are "coming apart", are you sure that these things are not just shedding and growing regardless of a lack of UV lighting.
what strength UV bulbs did you get and how far away from the turtles did you position them?
i personally would not report a family member for anything especially since you can have, and already have had, an effect on the situation even if you cannot get along with your sibling.
I have been trying to get the piece of shed off for a week. I have tried the wet washcloth, the paper towels, I even tried the ky jelly that was suggested. I have tried scraping with my fingernails. I would rather pay $35 to take her to the vet on a day off, than hope for the best and have to take her to the vet on a work day if the retained shed causes circulation problems or infection. I don't know, maybe vets are more expensive for you guys, but I have access to a vet clinic with a reptile vet on staff. No appointment necessary and only $35 for an office call. That's worth it for me to head off a health problem that if left untreated could kill my snake.
The turtle tanks have full spectrum 2.0 24" tube on one, and a 23w cfl 10.0 on the other. They're both about 8 inches above the basking area. I had to work within the confines of what the store had that would work with the existing light fixtures.
I think where you may be confused is on the whole brother/sister hate thing. I do not hate my sister. I love my sister. My sister hates me. If I hated my sister, I would have reported her for animal cruelty rather than try to surreptitiously help the turtles.
I will admit that my concern for the turtles isn't entirely altruistic. I am trying to assuage myself of the guilt I feel over the loss of my two childhood turtles. When I was a kid, I had two turtles of the exact same species as my sister's. I watched them die from a vitamin D/calcium deficiency.
Maybe it is a little cold hearted to consider calling the police on a family member, but when I inadvertently killed my turtles, it was 1988, I was 7 years old, and I didn't know any better. Now it's 2010, my sister is 30, and she does know better.
citysnakes
06-04-10, 10:18 PM
Its great that you have an inexpensive vet to assist you when needed but incomplete sheds are in some collections a more common occurrence than others and the ability to remove a stuck shed is an important one to have for all people who decide to keep snakes.
because i do not know you or your sister, i cannot be confused about any aspect pertaining to your relationship. any statement that i may have wrote in a previous post was only done so to illustrate my assumption about your motives.
you may genuinely want to help these turtles but you, along with your sister, do need to brush up on your info. in my experience "2.0" bulbs will not cut it for turtles and any "full spectrum" bulb is usually garbage. youre most likely fine with that that compact 10.0 but make sure the UVB output is appropriate.
goldfish are generally not recommended for various reasons and commercial pellets should be a staple.
infernalis
06-05-10, 01:15 AM
goldfish are generally not recommended for various reasons and commercial pellets should be a staple.
Thiaminase??
I know feeding goldfish and comets is bad for snakes, since the enzyme blocks thiamin absorption.
this must also be true in turtles??
Retained sheds should be easy? Damp towel, moss box, chuck her in a bowl of water, all should do the trick easy? Where is the retained shed located? Can we see a photo? :)
shaunyboy
06-05-10, 07:44 AM
that was good thinking feebs,a picture would be good mate.as long as the blood flows not restricted then you should have no problems.
cheers shaun
Freebody
06-05-10, 08:27 PM
gold fish have next to no nutrients in them, infact the way people breed feeder fish the conditions of the water is actually going to cause you problems give these diseased fish to your pets,gold fish can live in water you would think they would die in seconds in and thrive.go get pre frozen bags of brime shrimp or other things they carry at pretty much any fish store :) much better for them.
i know what you mean oil and water between you and you sis, my bother is the same way.little punk would cut his nose off to spite his face if it came down to it lol some people you cant reason with,just got to put your foot down to do what is right. although it might not be worth it, i stopped my brother from attacking my parents a few weeks ago and after he called the cops on me and tried to press charges...and now im the bad guy... just be carefull 2 can play at that legal game, maybe just stick to the ninja lighting plan :) and keep the situation as pleasant as you possibly can even know your 100% in the right.
Gold fish was just to show my sister that they'd eat fish. They're now on bluegill which are free of thiaminase.
Anyways. Bumping this because I spoke to my herp vet today, and she's going to make up a care sheet and sign it. I'll be giving that to my sister. If she won't take advice from me, hopefully she'll take it from a herp vet with 30 years experience.
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