Sick coastal.... :(

[RandyRhoads420]

I bought her from a reptile store ( read now that's not a good place to buy one) and she ate once a week for 2 weeks no problem, But had bad diarhea. The third week she ate...then a week later on feeding day threw it up and hasn't eaten since. It's been a month and she's looking pretty thin. Should i take her to the vet or what? Is a month without eating getting her close to starvation?

[infernalis]

VET asap!.........

That sounds too serious to be messing about, get professional help before it's too late.

[RandyRhoads420]

Ok i'll try and get her in tomorrow. If it's parasites can they treat it?

[infernalis]

Yes, parasites are one of the easier ailments to treat.

[never25]

sorry man, that really sucks

[RandyRhoads420]

I talked to the vet he said he thinks it's a parasite now i just have to come up with some extra cash to pay for testing... :(

[citysnakes]

until then, describe his setup and tell us what the temperatures are. maybe you could work on something that will help for now.

[RandyRhoads420]

55 Gallon with a small heat lamp w/ 150 watt bulb. The lid is solid so it keeps the heat it. I have a pyrex dish at the cool end for water and some wood chips for substrate.

[infernalis]

I'm going to let the people who keep that species answer, but....

Cage temps?? humidity level?? what kind of wood chips??

[RandyRhoads420]

no gauges in her cage I eyeball it ...if it gets closer to the heat i up it....if it's at the cool end I lower it... I don't know what the wood chips are I get them from the yard.


I've been wondering how do you guys regulate heat so much....with lamps and pads it's either on...or off...I'm using a timer so it's on for a few hours and off for a few....

[infernalis]

Reason I had to ask about the wood chips, Pine and cedar will cause respiratory ailments.

As will temps too low, humidity off, etc.

[RandyRhoads420]

Oh...i thought i heard it weeze a couple days ago... but it seems to be the only one that might have a problem with it.

[infernalis]

Give it a focused listen, if there is ANY noise, whistle, wheeze, etc... sounds while breathing are signs of respiratory issues.

[Will0W783]

You should make sure she is not on pine or cedar, as those can be fatal to snakes. They can cause respiratory infections, allergic reactions, and the aromatic oils are poisonous to the snakes. I would go to your local pet store and get some ASPEN shavings. You also NEED to invest in a temperature gun- you can pick them up at pet stores or get ones at like Home Depot. A simple temp gun at a pet store will run you around $20.
If you hear any wheezing you should get the temps in the cage up to 93 or so in the hot end and 85-87 in the cool end (hotter than normal but helps boost immune system) and also mist one to times a day.
As far as parasites, if she is regurgitating they must be very advanced by this point. I've bought many snakes at shows and generally they are a good place to get animals, but you have to be careful who you buy from and thoroughly check any animal over before purchasing it even if you know the breeder. Also you MUST quarantine any new reptile no matter where it came from for 1-3 months, some people even recommend up to 6 months.
Is the snake going in the water dish often? Do you notice what look like little black sesame seeds in the water dish? If so, they're snake mites and you can treat with Nix as recommended in many threads on here. Do a search on here for Nix and you'll find the instructions. You can also do a simple preliminary deworming with Panacure (sold in Wal-mart for horses). You use an eye dropper to dose the snake's food, or if it's to the point of not eating, squirt it down the snake's throat. Give a dosage of 50mg/kg once every two weeks for 3 treatments, or until fecal tests come back negative.

What really concerns me is that you say you have to save up money to get tests done at your vet- in the future make sure you can afford to take a snake to the vet before you buy it. No matter how careful you are, they will often need to go to the vet at least once in their lifetime. Generally you can expect to pay 2-3 times the snake's original cost in vet bills. You need to be prepared beforehand, because with a snake as sick as yours sounds, it might not make it much longer if you don't get prompt treatment.

With the symptoms you are describing I would also be concerned about IBD, and I would be isolating that snake immediately and watching carefully for signs of loss of coordination and muscle weakness/contorting.

I'm not trying to scare you or come down too hard on you, I'm just making sure you are aware of what your snake needs and are prepared to get it the help it needs.

For now, get your cage temperatures up and see if that doesnt' help with the RI symptoms and get the parasite testing done ASAP. Best of luck, I hope she makes it!

[Will0W783]

Oh, oops, I thought you typed you got her a show, but on reading more carefully, I see you put store. Generally pet stores are not the best because they usually don't really know what they are doing. Sorry for the mixup- serves me right for not reading carefully. Anyway, I keep a lot of carpets so feel free to pm me for more focused advice.

[Aaron_S]

no gauges in her cage I eyeball it ...if it gets closer to the heat i up it....if it's at the cool end I lower it... I don't know what the wood chips are I get them from the yard.


I've been wondering how do you guys regulate heat so much....with lamps and pads it's either on...or off...I'm using a timer so it's on for a few hours and off for a few....

You should buy a thermoSTAT and attach it to your heat source. Set it for the desired temperatures and it'll work for you. Still use a temp gun or thermometer to be sure of the results. Otherwise, eye balling it isn't the best idea.

[RandyRhoads420]

She has been very un coordinated. She misses when she strikes almost every time . I'm pretty sure she doesn't have mites...I just discovered my Rred tail does but i checked the rest and they seemed fine...Normally money isn't an issue but i had a couple large suprise bills this month.

[RandyRhoads420]

What do you mean Isolate it? Just keep it in it's own cage and don't take it out with others is good enough right? Never heard of IBD i looked it up and it has alot of the symptoms like "stargazing" while it doesn't look up i'll come in the room and find it coiled staring in a weird direction as if ready to strike...I always just thought it was really mean....If it is IBD theres not much chance of saving it is there?

[Hillsberry]

With isolating means you need to take the snake that has mites out of the room that has the other snakes. You might not so anything with the snake that has mites and think your other snakes are fine. But trust me mites will find your other snakes and attack them. And with your sick snake that will help nothing. Clean the snakes tank that has mites. Boil the hides anything you have in there. That the substrate out and put down newpaper. And if you use newspaper take it out and put in a new one.

[Lankyrob]

Also wash hands/clothes after handling the snake with mites before going near the other snakes. Imagine they are in an isolation ward at a hospital and follow similar procedures.

[citysnakes]

at this point quarantining the animal isnt the best option and you need to treat every animal for mites. you also need to invest in at least one thermometer for each animal's enclosure because you cant eyeball temperatures. your animals probably arent doing as well as they could be because you have no idea whats going on with their captive environment. you need to correct all of your husbandry errors before you assume internal parasites or IBD especially without a vet visit and testing. treat all your animals for mites with PAM or Nix and then do some research so that you can provide the best captive environment possible and im sure you'll see improvements. if regurgitation is still a problem after you do this then take the snake to the vet.

good luck.

[RandyRhoads420]

Took her to the vet today. He said he (hopes) it's just the mouth rot. As soon as he looked in his mouth it started to bleed. I was told by him if the mouth rot was bad it wouldn't eat because it's too painfull. Still no explanation for the regurgitating except maybe it wasn't hot enough to digest. I got a week's worth of antibiotics in a syringe along with everything to tube feed it. He showed me how to inject it and demonstrated tube feeding. hopefully I can correct it all and make them happy. And i'm not buying any more from that shop because they don't seem to care or even know much(even gave me false info) about their snakes. Sell them with mites IBD or what have you...

[infernalis]

Good call on the vet visit.

Surprised you were not given anti fungal meds for swabbing the mouth.

[RandyRhoads420]

Is there anything like snakes for dummies it all sounded simple ....like somewhere to start with diseases / treatments. IMPORTANT things to know such as to quarantine new snakes? Shouldn't this be the stores responsibility to at least tell you a few need to know things like that? Like the snake they sell you might carry a disease to wipe out your entire collection.....Now i'm worried my Burm has IBD. It seems to stand straight up and wobble (possible stargazing?) or is it just reaching for the top to get out / get some fresh air?

[infernalis]

Is there anything like snakes for dummies it all sounded simple ....like somewhere to start with diseases / treatments. IMPORTANT things to know such as to quarantine new snakes? Shouldn't this be the stores responsibility to at least tell you a few need to know things like that?

#1 - That's why we started having forums.

#2. a lot of shops suck! I called animal control and turned one in near me.
They had a sick Savannah monitor, I offered to help them with it and the dumb bitty said "don't you think we know what we are doing"

The monitor died:mad:

[RandyRhoads420]

I just feel bad they probablly had 40+ snakes and if they just ring in new ones with IBD and expose them to the others....poor snakes :( sucks they're family owned and really nice people but they don't seem to know much....

[marvelfreak]

I turn them into animal control. All they are doing is selling sick snake and infecteding more.:no: Sound to me like all they care about is making money. Not the poor help animal subjeted to their poor care.:no: There's alot of nice people out there, but it doesn't mean they're fit to care for animals.

[infernalis]

I turn them into animal control. All they are doing is selling sick snake and infecteding more.:no: Sound to me like all they care about is making money. Not the poor help animal subjeted to their poor care.:no: There's alot of nice people out there, but it doesn't mean they're fit to care for animals.

On that note, there are also some complete sphincters out there that are ace with the animals.

[citysnakes]

Randy, to answer your question, it is not the shops responsibility to educate you on the care of reptiles the same way it is not the shops responsibility to educate you on any other product being sold at any other store.

its up to you to educate yourself before you bring home the animal so to answer your second question, there are things like "snakes for dummies" out there. go back to that pet store or call around and find one that sells books on the species that you keep and buy one of each.

how long has it been since the snake regurged and how long are you supposed to treat it with antibiotics for? it may be best not to tube feed it during treatment depending on a few things.

[infernalis]

Agreed, even the smallest of snakes can go for quite long periods without eating.

[Will0W783]

Randy, I have a book called "What's Wrong with my Snake?" that was absolutely invaluable when I was starting out. It helped me figure out potential problems and correct them before it got too bad. Here is the Amazon.com link to it:
Amazon.com: What's Wrong With My Snake? A User-Friendly Home Medical Reference Manual (The Herpetocultural Library) (0748869001102): John Rossi, Roxanne Rossi: Books (http://www.amazon.com/User-Friendly-Medical-Reference-Herpetocultural-Library/dp/1882770358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272129847&sr=8-1)

Another thing is that forums like this are designed to bring herpers together so we can help each other out and learn from each other. I am sorry if I have appeared to come down hard on you on your other threads, but I was just concerned and want the best for your animals, and you too.
Another thing I recommend is to spend a month researching any new species BEFORE you buy it- that way you will be able to have a proper enclosure set up for it and make sure you can meet its specific requirements. Sometimes you just can't- there are species I would LOVE to keep that I can't because they get too large or need a temperature range or other environment that I just can't provide satisfactorily. It's better to know before you buy so you're less likely to have problems. But no matter what you do, if you keep several snakes, you will most likely at some point have some sort of problem, so having a good herp vet (sounds like you do) is very important and reading up on common illnesses and injuries is also good- that's why I recommended that book; it's a good comprehensive one.
I hope this helps and best of luck to your coastal carpet- mouth rot can be really awful. I would not go back to that pet store. Check out online sources or reptile shows for future herps. :)

[RandyRhoads420]

Thanks everyone. I will definately do that before getting and new species. And i'll make sure to check out that book. It's been near a month and a half since she ate anything, so we did one tube feeding to sustain her for a week of antibiotic treatments, then i;m going back in for another check up/ continuing tube feeding if she still wont eat.

[Will0W783]

A month and a half is really not much to worry about. I've had snakes go for 4 months without eating with no ill effects. My fiance has a MASSIVE fat female ball python that only eats about once a month to month-and-a-half even though she is offered food every other week. She is perfectly healthy and has a great body weight, just not a big appetite. I also would not recommend tube feeding during treatment. With mouth rot, I would just leave things alone until the treatment is over, because you could cause more tissue damage sticking things into her mouth. How bad is the rot? When mouth rot gets severe, vets will often have to scrape the dead/dying gum tissue out of the mouth. Since you're going back in a week, just do the treatment and also try to make the cage warmer- it's recommended to keep the cool end at 90 and let the basking get 95-100 and bump up humidity. The heat stimulates the snake's immune system and helps it heal faster, but also speeds up the metabolism so you need to watch the weight a bit more carefully. The humidity helps ease breathing, since snakes have their trachea ending in tube at the front of the bottom of the mouth and when they get sick the tube gets sticky with mucus and they have trouble breathing. The humidity helps ease this. Best of luck and I hope she gets well quickly for you.

[shaunyboy]

What do you mean Isolate it? Just keep it in it's own cage and don't take it out with others is good enough right? Never heard of IBD i looked it up and it has alot of the symptoms like "stargazing" while it doesn't look up i'll come in the room and find it coiled staring in a weird direction as if ready to strike...I always just thought it was really mean....If it is IBD theres not much chance of saving it is there?

to isolate you need to
1,put snake in a completely different room.
2,put double sided sticky tape 1 foot away from your tank,in a square round the the tank so it catches any mites that fancy a walkabout.
3,treat the snake and its tank.depending on what treatment you choose.
4,keep the snake isolated for at least 5 weeks,depends what treatment you use.
5,after being in contact or in the same room as the mite infested snake i take off all my clothes put them straight in the washing machine.i then go in the shower.i try not to go near any of my other snakes until ive been in the shower a 2nd time the next morning.

i give my snakes fresh water every other day.so i do the quarintined snakes on a different day from all my healthy ones.i find this the safest way.honestly mate mite eggs are very easy to transport around the house.thats why i go through such a strict ritual when dealing with mites.


not trying to put a downer on things.if your carpets got ibd there is no cure and carpets dont last over 3 weeks before dropping dead of ibd.

imo compaired to other species of snake carpets do funny things with there heads.star gazing is pretty much the position you would be in if you stood outside looking up at the stars with your head tilted back slightly to get a better view.i have a carpet that extends herself as far as possible then tilts her head so she inspects things with the underside of her head nearly upside down.i really wouldnt read too much into carpets getting into funny head positions mines have done it for years.

somebody else on here might be able to explain it better as to be honest i'm finding it hard to write it and still understand what i'm talking about.i'll try and get a picture next time i see one of my carpets doing what i'm trying to explain.
cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

From what you have said about the vet diagnosing mouth rot I would imagine the weakness is from fighting the infection and poor aim with strikes is her half-hearted attempts to make things go away and leave her alone. IBD is very distinctive. The first symptoms are usually regurgitation that has no other explanation (cage temps are good, no respiratory infection signs), followed by twisting and corkscrewing of the head and body into bizarre positions. Basically they lose control of their muscles and do a thing called "stargazing" which is lifting the head up and back and almost spiraling back into itself. A snake with a severe enough RI or mouth infection will have some trouble breathing due to mucus and pus buildup in the glottis area, so they will often lift the head and rest it against the side of the enclosure in a nose-up position. This is different from star-gazing because the snake can still move normally. Also with IBD a snake will not be able to right itself if you put it upside down.
IBD is a retrovirus that is very highly contagious with no cure and no treatment. All you can do is separate any animal that shows signs immediately and sanitize the area it was in and hope for the best. Unfortunately IBD often destroys entire collections in months. Boas seem to be able to hang on a few years often before showing signs and can carry the disease, but pythons succumb within weeks. Fortunately, with better breeding practices and culling of any animals/collections showing signs, IBD is fairly rare nowadays, but it is still always a concern. Here are links to a few YouTube clips of snakes with IBD, so you can see what they do and evaluate your own snake. At this point, I think she most likely does not have anything like IBD, but in the future always quarantine new animals in a separate room and maintain good sterilization procedures before moving on to your established animals after working with a newcomer. That includes thorough washing of hands, wearing a coat or something you can wear only around that snake and take off around the others, changing clothes and showering if you see mites, etc.

Warning, graphic videos of sick snakes.
Carpet with advanced IBD:
http://www.youtube.com
/watch?v=uqG6Yxovu08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqG6Yxovu08)

Boa with IBD:
YouTube - Inclusion Body Disease (in a red tail boa) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBHmHgfAlao&feature=related)

Stargazing in boa with IBD:
YouTube - snake with ibd (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZrDfW9-4g8&NR=1)

Here is a link to an article explaining IBD:
Inclusion Body Disease (http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html)
IBD (Inclusion Body Disease) (http://www.reptileforums.net/forums/showthread.php?40326-ibd-inclusion-body-disease)

[RandyRhoads420]

[quote=shaunyboy;560161]


not trying to put a downer on things.if your carpets got ibd there is no cure and carpets dont last over 3 weeks before dropping dead of ibd.

That makes me feel better...It's been about a month and a half and she's not dead. Infact she's moving quicker and her striking is more acurate and she contricts with force, I think she's doing better.


Now i'm concerned with my burm. It eats alot and seems fine but it always has it's head rested on itself and it's looking up. Is that normal for burms? All the adults in the shop rest their heads on themselves like that...

[Will0W783]

Take a picture of it.

[citysnakes]

dude, i doubt its IBD and think its more of an improper temperature issue. get some thermometers and provide proper temperatures for the species that you keep. you will find that they will all do much better in general.

[Will0W783]

I agree with Julian, really doubt you're dealing with IBD. If you watched the videos, it's pretty distinctive. Snakes that are too cool or are getting/have respiratory infections can be very lethargic. I would imagine the head pointing up on the Burmese could be the start of a respiratory infection since you have no idea what your temperatures are.

[RandyRhoads420]

HOORAY! She ate a large rat yesterday and kept it down guess it was just mouth rot and her being evil.

[Will0W783]

Cool. How's her mouth looking? You will want to keep her on medicine until all the signs of infection are gone.