outdoor snake pen

[mommanessy247]

i am gonna have a nice project ahead of me...an outdoor snake pen. i want to be able to take my snake outside for some sun, but keep it safe from mean neighborhood kids & any potential predators.
its gonna be a 4' wide x 4' long x 1' tall.
it will be made out of furring strips & hardware cloth.
fun fun fun! :)

[shaunyboy]

sounds like a great project,sadly we dont get the weather for it over here.well unless its polar bears your keeping,haha the only thing i'd say is make sure your snake has somewhere to go if the sun gets too hot.even putting one of its hides into the outdoor pen.best of luck with your new project.
cheers shaun

[mommanessy247]

how often during the summer months can a snake spend time outside in this pen?

[mykee]

What type of snake is the "pen" for? Is it for the thread-flooding, highly touted ball python you're getting in August? If yes, then an outside pen is not the best idea unless you can provide the animal with it's required husbandry requirements while he is out there (which I am pretty sure you will not be able to do).
Some sunlight for a snake is never a bad idea, but a dedicated "pen"; not so smart.
This may sound like me being a dik, which happens every once in a while, but I would be more concerned with getting this new animal established with proper husbandry in an indoor, everyday environment rather than taking on a near-impossible task of trying to do it outdoors.
Inside; you are Mother Nature.
Outside, she runs the show and could care less about the requirements of a West African snake.
Baby steps.
You'll have your hands full enough with housing a snake in a fish cage.

[mommanessy247]

ok, first off, i really dont mean to "flood" any thread about the snake i plan on getting. second, i thought this would be a good forum to post my questions as i'd rather ask & get feedback then try it & make a mistake & possibly cause more harm then good.
third, my terrarium is not a fish cage...its one of those terrariums with sliding front doors.
wow, i guess i'll be staying on my other forum, at least there i dont get remarks about how many times i post a thread.

[mykee]

If it's an aquarium-style glass enclosure, it's a fish cage, adn VERY difficult to maintain proper husbandry requiremtns in. Just like the outdoors.
I apologize if I'm coming across as harsh, as that is not my intention, but you won't be receiving your animal for at least 4 months, and instead of trying to get your INSIDE enclosure spot-on, you're planning an outdoor enclosure for it? Seriously, your giddiness and excitement are admirable, but baby steps. First time ball python owners ALWAYS have issues getting their environments set up properly and spend a great deal of time trying and retrying and retrying and retrying and retrying (get my point) to get things right so that your ball python is thriving and not just surviving.
Baby steps.
Are you just here looking for some yes-men to agree with all your ideas despite very real concerns?

Hate me; I could care less. My concern is for your new baby ball python and his health, care and well-being.
When I stop getting phone calls and e-mails weekly from first time ball python owners who have done damage or something to harm their snake because they didn't read or take the time to listen to those more expierenced than themselves, then I will give humans the benefit of the doubt and quit trying to "what if".

[Aaron_S]

... My concern is for your new baby ball python and his health, care and well-being....


You know this is it right here. Mykee said it all in that one statement. No one is here to be mean but why sugar coat things? Does the rest of the world sugar coat things? I didn't think so. Why should we when we're talking about an animals well being? An animal that DIDN'T decide it's fate. YOU did. People need to realize that this site is to gain knowledge for keeping our scaly friends. Not for people to sit idly by and and nod at everything you do.

To be perfectly honest, Mykee did say it best with "baby steps". All keepers should take baby steps with a new species. No matter how many other reptiles you keep. You'll lose less animals that way.

[emseeKAY]

i couldnt agree with you two more, there is no point coming on here and looking for yes' and whatnot when you're going to do more harm then good to the animal which is the largest priority here. nobody is trying to be rude, but as Aaron said; why sugar coat things? as you probably already know BP's are notorious for going off feed and the added stress of moving from enclosure to enclosure, inside and out will most likely not aid in settling the snake.

again, nobody here is trying to be rude, but offer constructive criticism. i have learned more on here in the past couple months then anywhere else and i thank everyone here for their help, this whole thing is a learning process or school, and if you dont listen to teachers, why go to school?

[mommanessy247]

mykee i'll say it again, my terrarium is NOT an aquarium style enclosure. its got 3 glass sides but the front is 2 glass doors that slide.
im here for the positive & the negative feedback as i need both to fully be able to weigh the oucome of my ideas but when you tell me im flooding threads, when im not, that upsets me.
i dont hate you mykee.
my idea for an outdoor enclosure is just that...an idea. i havent gone to get the supplies for it yet & i havent started building it yet, so i AM doing baby steps. the snake will spend at least 95% of its time inside its permanent indoor enclosure, 4% of its time with me or someone in my family & 1% outdoors for the occasional photo shoot.
i have mean neighborhood kids & all kinds of big birds in the sky so i thought the idea for an outdoor pen was good to keep the snake safe from them. the snake would NOT be alone outside even inside this pen...i would be right there watching it.
so my point is, im here for feedback on the research i am doing.
im not here for so called yes men or any sugar coated answers.
but dont tell me im flooding threads when im not.

[infernalis]

OK everyone said what the needed to say.... So now we move forward.

My personal opinion is this, Ball pythons move slow, rather than building an outdoor pen, just let the snake have some crawl time.

We set our BP down and walk with him, he takes forever to cover any distance.

Now mind you if your starting out with a baby, they may move a little quicker than an adult would, So I'm not sure I would recommend taking a baby python outside at all.

For a baby snake, I highly recommend minimal handling, let the snake grow up a bit first.



.

[mykee]

We can do this all day if you prefer:
mykee i'll say it again, my terrarium is NOT an aquarium style enclosure. its got 3 glass sides but the front is 2 glass doors that slide.
You lay that "terrarium" on it's back... Fish cage!
If it's made of glass; it's a fish cage.

As well, it seems that you are hell-bent on building an outdoor enclosure for your ball python regardless of what we say, so have at it.
I for one will not be posting suggestions on the inevitable thread you start in the mid-late fall asking how to fix a possible plethora of health issue that may occur from your choice.
From now on, I think I'll save my posts for those who are here with an open mind.

[mommanessy247]

your right mykee, i will do what i want.
please do, save your posts for someone who wants them cuz after yesterdays comments, i certainly dont.

[Aaron_S]

your right mykee, i will do what i want...

Don't ask questions then please. We'd all be wasting our time answering them if you prefer not to listen. Such a shame. A beautiful snake is going to lose it's life.

My opinion, outdoor cage is a no-no. Finish getting everything sorted out for your indoor environment then possibly revisit this idea. You still have yet to work out the substrate issue so I would start there.

[Hillsberry]

Hi. Now I am no were near as experienced with snakes as these guys. But what I have seen with my snakes is they like to go outside. Now not sure if I snake out door "play ground" is the best thing. Its just I would be scared my snakes would find away out. If you ever get a big lizard that the perect thing for them. But I say if yuo want your snake outside go outside with him and let him move around. You can make cool things for him to climb on and everything. Just stay with him. Dont want any birds getting him. I hope this helps with everything. Really nice enclosure. Just maybe when he gets alittle older you can get or make a nice cage for him. I really hopes this helps and good luck with the new baby

[Will0W783]

I also do not think an outdoor pen is the best thing for a captive snake. If you intend to leave him/her out there unattended, a multitude of bad things could happen- it could find an escape route (they get out of the tiniest cracks inside, imagine how easily they could escape outside...), or a predator could get him/her. I would, in all honesty, say the best thing is to let him crawl a bit outside while you are standing with him. Do not let him outside unattended AT ALL- it is waaay too dangerous.

[mommanessy247]

i wasnt intending to leave it outside unattended. i have abandoned that idea anyways so...yeah.

[Will0W783]

I know we all came down on you rather hard, and it's very exciting to get a new snake and you want to have all the fun things you can possibly think of, but really with ball pythons simpler is better. I hope you don't abandon this forum, because we really genuinely do want to help you, we just want to make sure you aren't adding too many variables that will make things harder than necessary for you. Honestly, I had more trouble getting my ball python reliably eating f/t and in a cage humidity/temperature that resulted in perfect sheds than I did getting my ETBs set up properly. Ball pythons are touted as great beginner snakes, but they really aren't, in my opinion. They tend to have bad sheds if things are not absolutely perfect, they are notoriously picky eaters and are quite susceptible to upper respiratory infections. My first ever snake was a 2-year-old "female" normal ball python who turned out to be a male. He's now around 7 years old and eating f/t medium rats and shedding perfectly, but it took me over a year to get everything perfect for him. They prefer smaller cages- I have him in a 3'x2' melamine cage and he's fine in there. He spends 90% of his time under his hide, unless there is food to be had...lol.
When I had him in a 55-gallon aquarium, about 6 months after I got him, he started having bad sheds and ended up with several stuck eyecaps- I was too green to notice until there were several built up and he was rubbing at them so hard one bled. He also would only ever eat two live white mice every other week, no more, no less and they had to be completely white or he wouldn't touch them. I had to go to the vet and several visits and $350 later, he shed again and got them off. I moved him out of my arid apartment and into my fiance's house in a 30-gallon breeder with half the screen covered with tinfoil and he started taking f/t and shedding better. A lot of the food pickiness can be alleviated if the environment is perfect, but ball pythons are really a pain in the butt. You are doing the right things by doing your research and asking questions and trying to learn now, before you get the snake, so you can have everything set up and ready for him when he arrives. Don't get discouraged, some people here may come across as terse and tough, but they are really only trying to help. It's hard when reading things online to know what someone's tone was meant to be. Try to take it as well-meaning advice and listen to people like Mykee and Citysnakes; they have a LOT of experience and have learned from it and can teach us a lot so we don't have to learn the hard way. :)

[infernalis]

That was a nice thing to say Kim......

[Will0W783]

Well I know how hard it can be when you're just starting out and people come down on you like a ton of bricks; I've gotten mighty PO'd at people at times, but it IS hard to tell how someone meant something when you're reading it online. And it is very very easy to bite off more than you can chew when you're just starting out with snakes, especially BPs. They are deceptively calm and easy-going snakes and then, BAM, develop problems seemingly overnight. I've seen the train wrecks that result, but I also am new enough that I don't want to see anyone discouraged and hardened against asking for help and advice. It's hard to hear an idea you're really excited about shot down, but we do have to do what's best for the helpless animals in our care. I hope she is not too offended and that she takes it as simple well-meaning advice and comes back.

[mykee]

I do apologize for how I come across to some people on forums, I tend to have a "way" about typing a thought out as opposed to when I am in person (ask Aaron), I'm just a wonderful, helpful, loveable teddy bear who is more than willing to piss way an entire afternoon chatting with someone about snakes.
I do get quite frustrated sometimes on the forums when I take the time to offer up a suggestion or allow someone else to maybe skip a few trial and errors to share what worked for me over the years.
It's one of the reasons I have limited my online forum time and posting over the last couple of months.

Quick story, I've been in the ball python game for over 11 years now and breeding for 8 seasons. It wasn't until two years ago that I finally built the BP racks (both adult and hatchlings ( the ones on my site)) that will be my forever design. Same deal with the rats; I recently built an entirely new design to the one that I have DIY'd on my website after 5 years for something that better suited my needs at this time.
I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on supplies, wood, bins, tanks, etc. in trial and error to get to where I am today where I feel, for me, everything runs like a nuclear clock.
If I can toss out a suggestion or hint that will save someone having to do it wrong, on their way to doing it right, I prefer to help out that way. God knows, I would have really appreciated it as I was coming up through the ranks.

[Aaron_S]

I do apologize for how I come across to some people on forums, I tend to have a "way" about typing a thought out as opposed to when I am in person (ask Aaron), I'm just a wonderful, helpful, loveable teddy bear who is more than willing to piss way an entire afternoon chatting with someone about snakes.
I do get quite frustrated sometimes on the forums when I take the time to offer up a suggestion or allow someone else to maybe skip a few trial and errors to share what worked for me over the years.
It's one of the reasons I have limited my online forum time and posting over the last couple of months....

Hey! Don't drag me into this! Anyways I need to call you sometime in the next week or so. I didn't catch any locks between the two snakes by the way. There seemed to be interest from both parties though.

I would have to agree with Mykee's suggestion though. When I came back to this hobby I piggybacked off everyone else is hard work. Why should I make the same mistakes as other people when they already did it?

Someone once said fools learn from their own mistakes, wise people learn from others.

[mykee]

Hey! Don't drag me into this!
Fine.
Eff you then.:no:

[Aaron_S]

Now you've gone and done it! I'm upset and going to go talk smack about you on the BOI!

I really am. Go check there soon.

[mykee]

Well I'll be!
I guess I should stop talking $hit about you then...
Thank you kindly Sir! (like I don't deserve all the accolades afforded to me..)

[Aaron_S]

Well I'll be!
I guess I should stop talking $hit about you then...
Thank you kindly Sir! (like I don't deserve all the accolades afforded to me..)

Back on topic... outdoor pens are a no-no.

Mykee is an a-ok guy! You can ask me :D

[Will0W783]

Hahaa, you guys are too much. I'd better watch my back, or you'll be talking smack about me before I know it...lol. I agree though with you both- why make the same mistakes other people already have if you can avoid it?

[mykee]

Hahaa, you guys are too much. I'd better watch my back, or you'll be talking smack about me before I know it...lol.
I can't speak for Aaron, but the reptile "community" where Aaron and I are, that's all there is is gossip, backstabbing and rumours. It's like a bunch of children at recess. It's a huge factor to why I no longer post to any of my old forums.

[Aaron_S]

It's ok Mykee. No one really posts there anyways.

[infernalis]

I know that one, I used to spend some time on a forum, It got so that every day there were threads debating religion, politics, do you like me, I don't like you, Liar liar pants on fire.... that kind of crap.

I hardly pop in there anymore, there's no useful threads to post in.

[mommanessy247]

i will apologize too for some of my reactions. i may have overreacted. due to the fact that im sick, im not as level headed as i usually am. i may have also seen a certain "tone" in what mykee was saying.
i was asked to not post anymore questions so i dont intend to, but i will be checking up on the current ones i have going.

[infernalis]

559691i was asked to not post anymore questions so i dont intend to[/B], but i will be checking up on the current ones i have going.


Please don't stop asking questions, how else you going to learn??

[mommanessy247]

i just feel that i cant be where im not wanted, ya know? im on another forum too so im learning alot there as well. i also double check everything with the breeder i plan on buying my snake from & he's very thorough with his responses. im in good hands, dont worry.
thank you for everything you've helped me out with infernalis.
i'll still check up on my threads every now & then though, so its not like i'll be gone forever.

[infernalis]

Don't be a stranger. ;)

[Lankyrob]

Momma - not aware that anyone has said that your not welcome. I have followed all your threads as i am also a new snake owner and a ball python will be the next snake on my agenda.

My personal opinion is that

A) sometimes teh way you post your questions makes it sound like you have already decided what is happening and are looking more for confirmation rather than advice

B) as previously said making any sort of comment in writing is very difficult as things can be read totally differently to how they are intended - i pick up on your point about maybe taking things badly due to being ill; i am disabled and day to day my condition can vary tremendously - on a good day i can take things pretty well and tend to get the point of posts - on bad days i rarely read anythign or post anything as i either take offence or offend people (have done this on this forum already and apologised!!)

I think we all need to gain information from those more experienced - not necessarily to do everything they say but certainly to consider their points. I posted regarding keepin male corns together - took all the info on board and did my own research and decided to keep them together agains this forum's main point of view. But without this investigation research i would literally be guessing.

Its best to keep as many options for gaining advice open and i for one hope that you continue to post here and ask anyhting that you feel you need to

Take Care


Rob

[mykee]

Please don't stop asking questions, how else you going to learn??
The only stoopid question is the one you didn't ask.

[mommanessy247]

thanks guys. im not leaving permanently, i will be checking on my threads.
mykee, im sorry our argument got kinda nasty, but we were both becoming passionate about our points & i had become offended alot quicker then i normally do, due to the fact that i was very sick. maybe thats what i did wrong, i was on the computer instead of resting in bed, lol.
ive abandoned the idea for an outdoor pen & i think a couple people got the wrong idea on it.
anyways, i'll be back later.

[Will0W783]

Hope you feel better soon, and do continue to ask and learn. Just make sure to keep an open mind and accept people's answers to your questions- even if you don't agree, at least show that you are considering them. :)