Exotic Pets and Legislation

[emseeKAY]

Looking for some help on this one! you will all be credited in my formal report for this as well so no worries on the whole original material mumbo jumbo! Alright ill get to the point.

For my Contemporary Social Issues class ive elected to do a report/display/presentation on... you guessed it! the Exotic Pet trade and Legislation (Canadian and International). I've chosen this subject due to an obvious passion for the trade and keeping exotic pets responsibly.

Now i've got three weeks to come up with a formal report and need the herping community's help! What problems do we as exotic animal keepers face pertaining to current or recent or past legislation, by-laws, proposals etc.? How does this effect us as keepers, breeders etc and why could it be considered a social issue? (i.e. how would it affect freedoms, rights, economics etc.)

I have formed my own opinions and am doing extensive research into this as well as in a group (although they have little to no experience with the subject, kind of lucky for me ;D) but would like to know what YOU all think and why! ANY INFO IS WELCOMED WITH THANKS! ORIGINAL OR REFERENCES! Also any ideas for a display is welcomed, i am planning on displaying some of my collection to educate the college and show that although these animals are exotic, they are not monsters as the film Anacondas made them out to be.

Again my goal is to educate the college and any help is welcomed and appreciated, THANKS IN ADVANCE EVERYONE!

[infernalis]

want downsides also??

I have grievances with certain aspects of the trade, as well as much praise on other issues pertaining to it.

one example, big pythons, Iguanas, monitors and the harvesting of Ball Python egg clutches from the wild appall me.

On the other hand, breeders who behave responsibly and act in the best interest of the animals, even though rare do deserve some kudos.

[emseeKAY]

Any info or opinions is great lol i want to learn as much as possible! thanks for the input wayne! always appreciated, and i definitely understand that there are downsides to the hobby i'm trying to get accross that with responsible ownership, animals such as these should not be prohibited and it can effect many areas of the community, its the idiots with the 12 ft. crocs living in their bath tubs that should be prohibited from having animals...

[infernalis]

One of my hangups if you will is that any cretin with $40 can buy a baby retic, a baby Nile monitor, Iguana or baby Burmese and they have no clue what the heck (not my first choice of word) they are getting into.

Every year countless animals languish and die because someone impulse purchased an animal that grows up to be bigger and more expensive to care for than they ever imagined.

Even though I disagree with legislation, there should be some sort of law that makes people get an education before buying the wrong animals.

One thing is for sure, if a baby Burm were to cost $500 rather than $50, some of those impulse buyers would walk away rather than purchase an animal they have no clue how to care for.

[emseeKAY]

thats definitely true, there is too many pets which demand higher maintenance levels than others which are so readily given to people who have no experience with the animal and end up killing it, i do believe in registering animals to a certain extent but penilizing responsible owners because of these impulse buyers is beyond me.

Wayne, in your opinion if this whole python ban went through in the states, what do you think would happen to the reptile industry? would it effect us largely up in canada?

I know around my area there are many pet shops and breeders who thrive off of the reptile industry, especially one shop which specialized in exotic pets, which closed down about a year or two ago, i'm guessing because of the hardships of the industry as well as the recession.

[Aaron_S]

It's a difficult situation to really talk about. Kudos to you for doing it for your project though.

Other than what Wayne has mentioned there's other things that need to be looked at. Does outright banning always work? We all know with the ban on the "big 9" that it's going to economically affect a lot of people. The breeders of these animals for one. The company's like rodentpro as well will take a large hit. Who's going to need a jumbo rat now? Legislation SHOULD be in place for such things and really, a ban on the "big 8" or 7 would be fine. As Wayne said too many people can own these animals who cannot care for them.

About what as reptile keepers face in legislation currently and the past? Bad reputation for owning "evil" animals. It comes from the bad owners (who seem to flock to reptiles) who create bad press and the issues we are now facing. The burmese pythons in the everglades as an example. With the ban going into place it won't bode well for the industry as I already stated.
On the plus side though, the late Steve Irwin did a lot for making reptiles "mainstream" and not so creepy. Which is amazing for legislation. Many people may dislike the morph breedings of ball pythons and other reptiles but it shows that we have a very large amount of money in our industry and that will help fuel the larger economy of the country.

[Freebody]

I think there laws coming in are so ********,although it does make me sick that people get these pets and disgard them in the park and waterways and put crocs in the bath tube, so i agree somthing different than what is the case has to be done but not a total ban like they have done here in most of the lowermainland in BC, which is going to make it worse being how there is no way the law is going to stop me from owning my pets when they are going nothing to help own them either, its going to force the exotice pet trade to go underground and im sure animal cruelty will surely rise as this progresses.
another thing is that as bad as it sound these hippactrate that take are rights away and push a ban on them done uthanize and exotic pet the same way they do the cat and dog trade< before you get mad at me for saying this i dont agree with killing exotic or dogs and cats as i do about killing people,im saying that this is a fact they do uthanize cat and dog by ther thousands on a daily basis,yet exotics need to be placed in none government funded refuge, which they then turn around and make this part of the same disgard as and pet, the cattalist to show the puplic and get votes from people who dont have a clue of what they are voting for. their has the be education for the masses.we also need to either ban the ownership and breeding of all pets or treet them like equals as to make an attemp to be as humane as we can as a society.i dont like it but lets face it some people just are ignorent and mean and some will do anything for a dollar and its not the exotic pet trade owner that are the sick ones its that the we have turned cats and dogs into livestock while doing nothing about exotic pets and then putting them on a pedistool and shining the lime light on the situation. why is it that cat and dogs are any different from exotic pets? simply becuase only the few who care for them has seeked out the education and have seen the real beuty in owning them while cats and dogs are bread with us as childeren, you cant even find a person who has not seen one first hand.there is always going to be the good with the bad no matter what lets shine the light on the cats and dogs as help them in the same manner or at least let the people know how prejudist are law this is.
i aggee with you infernalis there should be a test or sheet you need to fill and sign becuase at this point we need to or will need to register to own exotics why not make a test if you pass it, you can can send it in with a fee which will the send out a memeber of whatever to come inspect your home and see your set up or somthing along those lines so at least it will get rid of the impules buyers that have a 50 gallon tank and get a burm and then lose there job a few months later, not there fault but then cant afford to buy or build that huge cage they did have the 100% intent on building when the purchased it. same thing goes with maybe fund the reptile refuges with the same amount of money the animal rights activist spend on the drugs to kill dog and cats,or maybe just get the point out that ALL pets should be treated equal as bad at it is humans will own pets and people are just sick and greedy with all animalls not just exotics ,make this a big points , its just everyone that votes to take are rights aways to make them selves feel better like they are makeing the world a better place,has a cat or dog they love and dont care about the facts,or dont want to open there eyes on what we as people do with the disgarded dogs and cats which is a way bigger problem then what going on in the opposed to the exotric trade,a much larger issue,
make them open there eyes to the Whole issue rather than just exotic pets, it is surely the only way to come up with a law that works and make it better for us other wise im sure no matter what we do people who have a narrowed un education veiw on exotics will take are rights away so they think they made a difference in this world while they lay in bad and night with that cat and dog they dont think twice about.....my 2 cents sorry for the spelling and punctuation im in a hurry and had to say whats on my mind.

[Will0W783]

I have to agree that there isn't tight enough legislation on the breeders- I have seen too many people who keep animals in deplorable conditions, and just treat them like any other expendable commodity- they are living, feeling creatures who deserve dignity and comfort. There should be some way to find and punish these folk while not making life harder for those caring, responsible folk.
I also agree with Wayne that it is waay too easy and cheap to get a giant python or anaconda. These animals are NOT for beginners but just anyone can get one in most places. There should be some sort of restriction or permit or something required to make people think twice about these massive, albeit beautiful creatures. The people who will care for it properly and be responsible deserve to be able to have them, but we need to do something to discourage the average fool who has no clue and just thinks it will look "cool" to his buddies...
I fear for the future of our hobby and, in many cases, livelihood. The proposed laws will do as much damage to the responsible keepers as to the fools who don't deserve to have any animal, and will likely steer future potential responsible customers away. I will support tighter restrictions and well-thought out, fair laws, but not the way they are currently worded, like S373.

[fflamingmoe]

Yeah well this is also the problem of pet stores offering reptiles with in their own city and not selling to proper buyers and not distributing.
If the money is there they will sell.
The name hobby makes me sick and it tells me people are in it for money and themselves.
To me it's pasion and not a hobby and it's up to the sellers to be responsible as well.
I say it how it is and if people don't like it that's your opinion.
And it sounds bad in court because it's something that you don't need to do unless you have the spare time.

[DeesBalls]

i wish they made some type of test or license you had to pass in order to be able to have exotics... that i feel would decline the neglect of reptile all around because i think people wouldnt take the time to take it unless it was a passion or something someone really feels strongly about. not sure if this helps any but it might be something you could put in the paper to help persuade people to not get reptile..

[Kmef07]

The only problem I could see with making a test or license is that reptiles are way to easy to breed and to hide from public eye. There would be way too many breeders that could fly under the radar and would sell them a little higher but not require the paperwork from the buyer. Just like if there is a ban on any of the big herps you will still have a black market for them. Again you can hide them from the public eye, and banning them will make their appeal even greater to people that only want a cool conversation piece.
All in all they can make as many laws as they would like and they can make you pass a test or pay a fee to have exotics, but unless there are honest people there will never be an honest market. There will always be people in it just to make a quick buck any way they can. There are so many of the big 9 already in captivity that people can just breed off the current stock and never really need to go catch any in the wild. Prices might go up a little but people will still be able to get them pretty cheap. No law or test will, in the near future, drive the captive population down low enough to stop the "problem".

[fflamingmoe]

Yes i think a TEST would be a good idea.
I'm having a problem buying anything unless i live in that city.
And at times stores don't take orders or questions over the phone.
And shipping is a problem because they don't know how to ship them right.
And when they have reptiles your looking for in stock they lie just so it's easier to sell locally.
I've been looking for 2 YEARS for certain reptiles and all they do is give you the runaround.
So what is the point in having a website saying YES we ship within Canada.:no:
Hell who also thinks that it's up to the seller to give you a full Total on the animal ,Air Cargo and shipping?And i call it lazy if they can't give you a grand total.What is the diffrence when you give the money to them for shipping air?Wouldn't it be easier?:sorry:
This goes to show that they don't care about the buyer at all or the animal.
If i sold animals i breed then i tell people what it's going to cost you for shipping not the other way around.

[infernalis]

Wayne, in your opinion if this whole python ban went through in the states, what do you think would happen to the reptile industry? would it effect us largely up in Canada?


The industry will adapt, smaller colubrids will fill the void. Ball python popularity will probably rise.

It will affect us all, animals crossing the border will slow to a halt.

It's already difficult enough to get animals over the border now. Once the are banned, none will cross. Seems like it would affect Canada, don't some of the Canadian sold animals cross over from the states?

[fflamingmoe]

Yup,I,m talking about places in Canada in Ontario where i live.
I'm not talking about shipping over the boarder.
I'm talking about selling within Canada.Thought i would clear that up sorry.:no:
It's a shame how hard it is to buy a reptile these days.
I've been talking to Ben Renick from the States time to time to help me out.
That's how bad it it for stores to sell reptiles to out of towners.
And it's a real shame.
They see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that's it and they don't like the work to ship out.
I look in the classifieds and i see young babie reptiles for sale that people no longer want and i think to myself why did you buy it then lol.

[Kmef07]

But again people would smuggle them across the border. It would increase prices. Also there are plenty to continue to breed in Canada so people could continue to sell on a black market.

[emseeKAY]

really appreciate all the feedback keep it coming!

and i dont know if many politicians realize that this market is as big as it is... i think that the economy does benefit from the sale of pets especially exotics, if an outright ban did occur there would be no taxes or income made by the government on the sale if it was by the black market. also the products for the care and husbandry of the animal would become scarce i suppose...

[Freebody]

im not 100% on shipping from the states to canada,i dont think exotics can cross the bornder with out pre arranged permits, i know its not a good idea if is legal anyways, my dad works for canada post and he said at minimum it will get stuck in customs for a few weeks then set back to its destination if it clears a medical check,and with the poor treatment of cargo most likley it will die from stress in that amount of time. planes dont have any laws for where they stick cargo and pets go into cargo area for shipping, do a search hundreds of dogs and cats die on planes every year or recieve hearing loss from the noise ,lack of air , tempreture ... their is a thing i was reading where animal right activist are trying to make airline have a safe place for pets to travel in or ban pet travel 100% . just a tip for mailing pets you should consider.

[fflamingmoe]

What i don't like is the pet shops are able to have reptiles imported.
But these pet shops sell these animal to people even know it's making that seller a criminal when they leave the store like in Mississauga.
PortCreditPets likes to deal with people in thier own City rather then selling to a City with no By-Law.
And they better get with the program because people are pissed off with these guy's.
There are people that try and take an order but get no reply back with no phone call or email.
They rather make you a criminal and save there own buts.:no:
And to me that makes them irresponsible and not very buisness smart and ignorant.
It's too hard for them to do buisness unless your in thier City and to me that's not how you do buisness and is lazy.
Why have a website saying you ship with in Ontario if your not reliable?

[Freebody]

ya bylaws are very important now and you need to check these days. where i live in you cant sell the big guys or monitors and iguanas and stuff of big size but if you take a 20 minute drive in any direction you can buy them at the mall pet shops where the buylaws have not been voted in yet , that is just crazy.

[fflamingmoe]

Yup in Mississauga there are bands on 80% or more of the reptiles they sell.
prohibited Reptiles list for Mississauga.

REPTILES
Crocodylia alligators, crocodiles, gavial, caymans
Squamata lizards that are venomous and that reach an adult
length larger than 2 metres (6.56 ft)
snakes that are venomous
snakes that reach an adult length greater than 3
metres (9.84 ft)
OTHER
All poisonous insects, reptiles, and amphibians

And they sell of the all the above.
And even if there is a pet store with in a By-Law they can still sell and import.
Because it's a buisness and that's how they get away with it.
There is not protection to the buyer only the seller because once the reptile leaves the store it's not their responsibility anymore and that makes me sick.

[emseeKAY]

for the most part i believe crocadilians are prohibited, although how do those of you who are breeders see the by-laws? does this affect your sales to those who are in area's where the animal is prohibited?

[marvelfreak]

As far as the big 9 goes. If they made breeders start chipping these animals. (like you can do with cat & dogs) Then when they turn up in the wild they could track down the owners and fine them for setting them loose. This would be one way to start making people accountable. Record keeping on the selling of the big 9 should enforce. For the sole reason of making them be more responsible on who they sell to. Say a burm is found crossing the road. Scan for a chip you find out who the breeder is, call them up give them the id # and they tell you who they sold it to. This person then faces a fine. Doesn't solve the problem, but helps. Then there is a web site where you can order venoms snake for $40.00. I saw one for rattlesnakes and cobras both at these prices. I believe along with having to be chipped you should have to have permits, and have to have training with them first. Make the breeders and people buying them more responsible.

[siz]

fflamingmoe - please keep talk about Port Credit Pets to the BOI. Not trying to be rude to you but from what I gather this thread doesn't have anything to do with shipping locally, local pet shops, or your issuses with them.

This is a great topic! I'm about to go on lunch at work so I'll just write a little bit for now. :p I have lots to say on this topic if I can organize my thoughts hahah.

I think chipping is a great idea for those who own and breed the "big 9". Keeping track of snakes after they have been sold is near impossible I'd imagine, chipping keeps those who bought the snake responisble if anything happens (escape for example).
Unfortunaltey, I'd say it's almost too late to enforce a liscencing/registration program. There are far too many of these animals (and far too many owners who don't care) to even know where to start. Most people just DON'T CARE. The crap part about it is that the people who don't care about the animals, laws, industry, HOBBY, or all of the above are the ones who get everyone into trouble, and at the end of the day, they can just go back to playing their Xbox, while we are left with a coroding industry that we have to struggle to hold up! A few always ruin it for many :(
It all comes down to education...the general public (the ones voting on these laws) don't really know what they are voting on...ridding the Evergaldes of Burms? That is an pretty indirect result of the ban, really. Am I wrong in thinking the big 9 are still legal to KEEP in Florida, not just transporting them?
anyways gotta go to lunch I'll be back...lol

[mommanessy247]

does this legislation thing ban people from owning exotics or will it only affect the breeders?

[emseeKAY]

depends on which part of legislation you're talking about. if you're talking about the "Big 9" ban than it would both effect owners and breeders, as well as the industry as a whole and anyone connected to it. there are many other pieces of legislation depending on where you go etc.

@ Siz you make an excellent point definitely adding the microchipping part to a solution to protect the animals being sold as well as the owners, in a way it FORCES them to be responsible. who wants to end up getting charged, right? so far to my knowledge that is right that the ban is only on the transportation of the big 9, however that may effect the industry, the fact is that the lawmakers are still allowing these irresponsible owners to keep these animals and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that there must be at least 1 person in each state with a pair of breeding burms, retics, BCI, ARP's whatever... this doesnt seem too smart of a "ban" unless the'yre trying to destroy the sale between states. Also who's to say that many people won't sneak these animals across state lines? are there customs officers between state borders?