Savannah monitor in need of care!

[bighog85]

Hey guys,

I recently acquired a very unhealthy sav from a guy near where I live. He had been in jail and supposedly a friend had been taking care of it and just did not do a good job. I am pretty sure he just threw some live mice or rats in with it because she has bite marks and scars all over and she is very dehydrated. Anyways, I will hopefully be able to fix all of that but I have a question about a cage that I am building for her. It is 8' x 3' x 3' and the inside is lined with the plywood that is used for roofs and other exterior purposes, I cant remember the exact name of it. I am needing to get her into the cage fairly quickly and am needing some advice on what I should treat the plywood with on the inside that wont take weeks or even days to dry and expel all of the fumes. I dont know if there is such a thing out there but I hope that you all might have some recommendations. Hopefully I can get this girl healthy and any help would be greatly appreciated.

[allergenic]

Hi Mr. 85,

I know the material you're talking about. For the quickest way to waterproof the enclosure without waiting to seal the wood, use sheets of FRP. It's usually found in the same section as the paneling, it's a very hard plastic and usually has some texture to it. 8x4 sheets are available just like plywood. It's what they often use to line the walls of convenience store bathrooms. it will stand up to monitor claws and is obviously completely waterproof.

Affix the FRP to the wood with something like Liquid Nails, and seal the corners with aquarium sealant (also found at the home improvement store in the caulk section like Liquid Nails) or something like GE Silicone II clear.

Don't confuse the FRP with tileboard, sometimes used in showers. Though that has a similar white waterproof surface, the back of tileboard is cardboardish stuff and won't hold up to a good cut with monitor claws.

FRP is not terribly expensive ($18-20/sheet), and is an instantly way to seal your walls.

Check The Savannah Monitor, Varanus Exanthematicus – Housing (http://savannahmonitor.org/housing) for an example of what I'm talking about.

Hope that helps.

[Geckogal]

I have my sav in a glass tank for now till he gets a bit bigger, how big is your gal? Be nice of you to post some photos of her, im very interested to see what they look like when they not all that healthy

[infernalis]

Fill a bathtub so you have just enough WARM (Not hot) water that the monitor can still stand up without swimming, they like water.

I would go see a qualified vet ASAP and have the lizard checked out.

While building the enclosure, if you have the space why not go with 4 feet by 8 feet, less cutting and an extra foot of width for moving around in there.

Good luck!

http://www.thamfriends.com/photos/chomptub.jpg

[bighog85]

Ya she is not doing good I don't think. She eats just fine and defecates just fine, but I came home this afternoon and she was still laying down underneath her basking spot, literally had not moved an inch since last night. I got her out and put her in the tub with some water and again she just sat there. I feel like she would have drowned if I hadn't pulled her out because she just kept closing her eyes slowly and her head would go under the water. I can't figure this thing out! Any advice is greatly appreciated. I am new to the area but I will try to find a good herp vet and see if I can get her in. I attached some pics, I hope they work, I'm new the this forum thing.

[infernalis]

That's breaking my heart, A lethargic Savannah is a really sick Savannah.

Is your basking spot 120-130 degrees??

They are from Africa and like it really hot.

Please don't delay in getting to a vet, those are really great lizards, and way too many die long before they get old.

What are you feeding her??

[bighog85]

Ya it is hot enough, 132 degrees, but I had to put her up there or she would have just stayed below. I fed her a couple hard boiled eggs when I first got her and then she ate two mice yesterday. I just tried to feed her another one and she wouldn't take it. I just want to beat the previous owner to a bloody pulp, this is why I hate people! What is it that these get sick with?

[infernalis]

I don't like guessing, Parasites, respiratory infections, etc..

[bighog85]

I just got on the phone with a seemingly knowledgeable vet and he suggested soaking her and trying to get her hydrated. If nothing works tonight I will take her in tomorrow. I was wondering, since she is an adult and has lived in crappy conditions her entire life, is it possible that she just doesn't know how to regulate her own temperature very well? I mean if she has never seen a basking spot in her life might she just not associate light with heat? I ask this because she does not seem to know how to get up to her basking sight, but if I put her up there she will warm up and become fairly active. There is a wooden ramp going up to it but she doesn't seem to know how to use it because she won't go down once she is up and she won't go up once she is down. Is this weird or am I just looking past a sick lizard? And also she just pooped again which is not normal in a sick animal as far as I understand. Is there anything that I could notice in her feces that might give me some clues to something or does it take a vet with a microscope to see things? I really appreciate all the help I am receiving!

[Will0W783]

Oh man, that is awful- poor thing. Kudos to you for rescuing it though and I hope you can figure out what's wrong with her and get her back to health. I think your best bet is to get to the vet though- they can run tests and give meds if they suspect an infection or parasites. Keep us updated, and best of luck.

[infernalis]

If that lizard has not had any heat for a long time, Heat is essential for proper digestion, so there is a chance that this poor animal has had undigested food rotting in its stomach.

I can quote the research on this if needed, but PH in the stomach is related to the temperatures of the animals surroundings.

If the digestive tract becomes filled with rotting flesh that is not digesting properly, the animal will get sick.

[bighog85]

That makes sense for sure. And I was also doing some reading and it appears to me that she could have an early case of metabolic bone disease. Everything that she does and does not do, such as not eating consistently, being lethargic, etc. point to that. I have also noticed that she will have small muscle spasms in her toes when she is resting which I have seen is also another symptom of MBD. I am going to get her a good UVB bulb tomorrow and that along with a whole prey diet that I am sure she has never had, should help remedy the situation. I also have her basking spot on a raised platform in her enclosure. I am going to take that out and figure out a way to lower the lights to her so that she does not have to climb anywhere to get to it. Thoughts?

[infernalis]

Affixing the lights where she can get at them is not a good idea.

http://www.thamfriends.com/MPFG/images/dscf1102.jpg

That may look cute, but they can get burned on the bulb, they can and will rip the wires out of the lamp, etc.

UVB is not necessary with a Savannah, In nature they are burrowing animals.

A common misconception, Monitors are worlds away from being Iguanas.

Food that is not digesting properly can and will breed bacteria and pathogens inside the animal.

[bighog85]

I have read in a lot of places that same thing, that they do not need it. But I have been doing a lot of research and there is some very convincing evidence pointing the other way. In nature, even though they are a burrowing animal, they still come out to bask in the sun which gives them the UVB rays that they need. I have no doubt that an animal that is raised really well from the beginning can get away with just what they get from their diet, but my thought is that my sav having been so neglected could possibly really benefit from the addition of UVB into her life. Your point of her possibly having bad food is well taken as well though because her original cage, which I highly doubt had been cleaned recently, had no sign of defecation anywhere in it. But as soon as I got her home and put some real heat on her, not two hours passed and she took a huge dump and has been doing so ever since. So I am not in any way ignoring your advice or trying to prove you wrong, I am just throwing as many options out as I can. I also put an infrared lamp on her tonight and misted the cage really well which brought up the humidity and now she will stay warmer too.

[bighog85]

Oh and I am definitely not going to put the lights where she can reach them. Just where it will bring her basking sight up to temp on the ground instead of on her raised basking area.

[infernalis]

I never doubted you for a minute, I'm just passionate about Savs.

[bighog85]

I don't blame you, she is one of the coolest animals I have ever had. And I am saying that about an animal that is not even acting normal, lol. I will keep you all posted and ask more questions as they arise.

[Geckogal]

Poor lady, Well they say savs cant get mbd but my leos got even though they dont need uvb, when they get parasites it messes with their calcium absobsion but i dont know if the same applies to savs, i just gave my leos sunlight 15min a day and had them on higher dose of calcium they doing just fine now and improved behond my expectations, hope this helps

[allergenic]

Mr. 85,

It would help tremendously if you post photos of your entire setup. 90% of monitor health problems can be overcome with proper husbandry. 90% of health problems can be caused by improper husbandry.

If you'd post some photos, some suggestions could be offered.

Take care.

[allergenic]

my leos got even though they dont need uvb, when they get parasites it messes with their calcium absobsion but i dont know if the same applies to savs,

Monitors are the polar opposite from leos in terms of husbandry.

I have my sav in a glass tank for now till he gets a bit bigger,

Glass tanks are horrifically bad for monitors.

Fill a bathtub so you have just enough WARM (Not hot) water that the monitor can still stand up without swimming, they like water.

They don't take in water through soaking. For a sick monitor, handling it and putting it in the bath is going to stress out the animal, which is going to add to the problem, not relieve it. As I said above, 90% of health problems can be solved by correcting husbandry errors. Putting the monitor on soil, feeding it a proper diet, stopping any handling, making the enclosure humid, and providing a number of lower wattage basking bulbs with no use of screen to let humidity escape will all cause a turnaround in the monitor's health.

Water should be made available inside the enclosure, however, which a dehydrated animal will gravitate toward (and this animal is dehydrated).

I would go see a qualified vet ASAP and have the lizard checked out.

Again, that's going to stress the animal out tremendously, and you're going to get conflicting husbandry advice from vets, as they don't keep monitors and are likely reading the same outdated caresheets as most people on the Internet. Correcting husbandry errors is where the solution is going to lie.

I fed her a couple hard boiled eggs when I first got her and then she ate two mice yesterday.

This diet needs to be corrected. Savannah Monitors are primarily insectivores and as that monitor is already plump and dehydrated, switching to primarily insects is going to help. Mice have too high a fat content for this monitor.

Just a side question, is that a sore on the side of the animal?

[Geckogal]

Glass tanks are horrifically bad for monitors.

Why are glass tanks bad? My monitor is stil a baby?

[infernalis]

Savannah Monitors are a reclusive animal that live in burrows, a glass tank offers no privacy to the animal.

do you have a hide or some soil so the little one can find some privacy?

I dropped Allergenic a PM, and I am doing some additional research here, Daniel Bennett has a book on Savannah care, I myself am guilty of not getting a copy.

Hopefully I (we as a forum) can get all the facts straight and provide the best most accurate and informative data for Savannah keepers so our pets can flourish and thrive.

[Geckogal]

Yes his got a hide and a large waterbowl, spends most of his time in the water though, his tank is in the corner of a room so he doesnt really get much spectators exept me. Thanks for ur help, i have a big enclosure for him i just have to fix it up first.

[bighog85]

Here is a picture of her enclosure right now. Keep in mind that I have had her for only a few days. I have indoor/outdoor carpet on the bottom for now, but my plan is to line the inside with frp panels and then put about a foot of dirt/sand in the bottom for substrate. My thought is also that when I do that her elevated basking area will act as a cover for a hide. I am also in the process of ordering some roaches to start a colony to feed her from. I agree about the mouse being high in fat thing, so I don't intend on feeding her those much. What is the best thing to do for an overweight sav? Just feeding insects? Have any of you ever thought about building like a box with a pipe coming out of it to bury in the dirt? This would act as a solid hide that wouldn't have the possibility of collapsing or anything.

[bighog85]

No I do not think they are sores. I think the guy that had her before me would put like mice or rats in with her and they got a hold of her a few times. They appear to be healing.

[allergenic]

Here is a picture of her enclosure right now. Keep in mind that I have had her for only a few days. I have indoor/outdoor carpet on the bottom for now, but my plan is to line the inside with frp panels and then put about a foot of dirt/sand in the bottom for substrate.

Hey man. Got your PM, thought I'd just reply here. Enclosure looks great in structure, good that you have it all enclosed with the lights inside. There's two places you might run into trouble though.

Mainly it's going to be too dry. I realize you probably know that already though, since you're talking about putting soil in there. The soil, if you keep it somewhat moist, will help tremendously with keeping humidity. The other thing is that that vent on the left side is going to be too big, you're going to lose a lot of humidity there. I built an Argus raise up enclosure with a similar sized vent, and wound up covering the whole vent over since I was fighting dryness. Learned the hard way. It's also positioned at the top of the enclosure, the greatest escape spot for humidity.

You're going to want 1-3 small vents down at substrate level. The best thing you can do vent-wise is get one of those round doorknob saw "blades" you attach to a drill and drill 1-3 holes in the wood, then fit those round plastic drain vents into the holes, you can find those in the plumbing section.

Also, I was wondering what size bulb that is, what wattage. Instead of a single high wattage bulb you're going to want to maybe use a fixture with multiple arms and have several lower wattage bulbs, roughly 50-60 watts. That will spread out the basking spot to make a basking area. A single high wattage bulb will also make it drier, and you'll be fighting with humidity levels there also.

My thought is also that when I do that her elevated basking area will act as a cover for a hide.

That makes sense, yes.

I am also in the process of ordering some roaches to start a colony to feed her from. I agree about the mouse being high in fat thing, so I don't intend on feeding her those much. What is the best thing to do for an overweight sav? Just feeding insects?

Roaches are terrific, the more you order the quicker your colony will be set up. And yes, a diet comprised primarily of insects will be great for it.

Have any of you ever thought about building like a box with a pipe coming out of it to bury in the dirt? This would act as a solid hide that wouldn't have the possibility of collapsing or anything.

Yes yes I know exactly what you mean. That's not a bad idea though they will dig also.

It looks like everything is coming together. Once you cover that vent, provide some moist soil, keep the humidity up, make sure there is fresh water in the enclosure like there is in that photo, hopefully things will turn around.

Good luck, gotta run.

[infernalis]

Good sound advice, Thanks Allergenic.

[bighog85]

The other thing is that that vent on the left side is going to be too big, you're going to lose a lot of humidity there.

Ya I realized that when I took the picture that it looked that way, but there is actually not a vent in there at all yet. It is just a reflection. Once I figure out where my soil level is I will add a couple of vents exactly like you said.

Also, I was wondering what size bulb that is, what wattage. Instead of a single high wattage bulb you're going to want to maybe use a fixture with multiple arms and have several lower wattage bulbs, roughly 50-60 watts.

Right now the two bulbs that are on the basking site are 90 watts but I think I am gonna lower that to 65 watt. The red bulb is just in there until I get a radiant heat panel to provide the rest of the ambient temps.

Roaches are terrific, the more you order the quicker your colony will be set up. And yes, a diet comprised primarily of insects will be great for it.

I found a site called The Feeder Store that seems to be the best and cheapest place to get roaches from. I am going to go with the dubias since they seem to be popular. If I just order 100 with multiple guaranteed adults would that be fine to start or should I get more?

[bighog85]

Alright everyone, I think we are making some progress. I spent all day today lining the bottom 18 inches of the walls and then put about a foot of dirt in the enclosure. She is already showing some more activity than she has before and she is starting to thermoregulate on her own. Hopefully I can get a roach colony going and get her going on those too. The dirt is keeping the humidity just above 60% which seems to be a good number. Any other suggestions anyone?

[infernalis]

need roaches??

I have a Dubia colony, can spin off a few.

[bighog85]

need roaches??

I have a Dubia colony, can spin off a few.

Ya I do need some. How much do you charge for them? I want to start my own colony so I do not have to keep buying them. How many should I get so that I can start feeding from them and allow them to breed and grow? Ever had a problem or heard of savs not eating these?

Thanks Wayne!

[infernalis]

No I have not had any problems, they breed like crazy and can survive the nastiest conditions.

The males have wings (Useless they cannot fly) and they cannot climb out of a plastic tote.

I have kept my colony for 2 years in a rubbermaid box, and they have never escaped yet.

Chomper loves them.

I will research what they are worth, I have never sold from my colony yet, and I got them in a trade.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/PG1/images/1aroach.jpg

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/PG1/images/2aroach.jpg

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/chomp/staredown.jpg

[Will0W783]

Hahaah, Chomper looks like he is staring down that roach, daring it to move! Lol. He's so funny!

[allergenic]

As many dubia as you can afford will get your colony up and going a lot faster. It may be difficult, since you are looking to start feeding off roaches right away, but your colony will have to sit for some time to reproduce enough to be able to feed off any.

It's really difficult to get a lizard dumped in your lap, I understand. You're probably getting the crash course in why these guys aren't "starter lizards".

[infernalis]

In the end though, sticking with it is very rewarding!

A healthy Savannah is a very cool lizard!

[bighog85]

It's really difficult to get a lizard dumped in your lap, I understand. You're probably getting the crash course in why these guys aren't "starter lizards".

Ya they certainly aren't. Luckily I have a lot of experience with reptiles so that helps a lot. Monitors are so unique in a lot of their care though that I really appreciate your guys help on this. I found a guy that will sell me 1000 dubia with at least 50 adult pairs for $75, so I think that should be good start. The sav is getting better I think though. I have about a 1 1/2 feet of dirt in the enclosure now so the humidity is staying up along with the temps. She seems to be doing much better with that.

[infernalis]

That's a good deal on the dubia! I'd have to send you my whole colony to get 1000 to you, Take it.

[Geckogal]

Bighog85 How she doin'? Any progress in her health satus? Are you treating her for mbd and is it working?

[Will0W783]

Who's the guy you're getting your dubia from? I could use a refresher on my colony and those are great prices!

[bighog85]

Bighog85 How she doin'? Any progress in her health satus? Are you treating her for mbd and is it working?

She seems to be doing better. She eats anytime I feed her but she is still a little sluggish. I got her on dirt now so she has dug a little cave type thing and spends most of her time in there. Also, she has not had a bowel movement in about a week. I am not feeding her much because she is so overweight but is that normal? She never goes to drink that I see either which I thought they did regularly. The humidity in the enclosure stays up so I guess that might be helping but I do not think they absorb moisture through their skin so I don't know. Overall she is certainly better off than she was but we still have a long road to recovery.

[infernalis]

Chomper eats like a little pig and he only goes potty 3-4 times a month.

One thing I noticed, He goes potty more often in the summer when we take him outside, I asked and was told they mark territory (Kinda like dogs do)

The feces stinks to high heaven so maybe they prefer not to foul the cage??

We spot clean Chomps poo as soon as he goes, I can smell it when it happens from any room in the house.

[bighog85]

Chomper eats like a little pig and he only goes potty 3-4 times a month.

Ok since we last talked about this my sav still has not gone to the bathroom. I have tried soaking her and still nothing. Like I said I do not feed her much but it still seems like she should have gone. Are they normally this spastic? I am used to my snakes that go pretty much after every meal, so should I just not expect that with her?

[infernalis]

There seems to be NO schedule to it.

We took Chomper outside, he went 5 minutes after he got let down in the yard.

[bighog85]

I can't wait till it is warm enough to take my guys outside. That will be nice for them.

[Terence]

Back off on the rodents. Savs become obese in captivity very easily. Bugs bugs and more bugs. A sav is not a tropical or even subtropical. Why worry about water proofing? Other than the bottom part. Your cage size is fine. Offer your sav some substrate to dig in. Dirt if you can. Gives them something to do. Good luck and good job on the rescue. Get yourself a tempgun.