Wall (ball x woma)

[marvelfreak]

Is it just me or is this taking it to far? A ball x a woma= wall. A ball x a carpet = carpall. I want to here what you all think about the people that breed this kind of snakes. I mean yes they look different (kind of cool), but is this taking it to far to make a buck cross breeding species? Here a picture of a wall. I came across on kingsnake.com 8668

[marvelfreak]

Here's a carpall. 8669

[mykee]

Hybrids: not cool.
Hybrid breeders are not respected amongst breeders and hobbysists alike.

[emseeKAY]

i know many hybrids are sterile but what are the other problems with them? i have never really researched the topic lol might as well hear it from you all with much more experience than i

[jejton]

Before finding the snake hobby community ( I have been keeping snakes and other creatures most my life ) I never heard of hybrid snakes and to be quite honest I dont think it should be done. You dont see this in just about any other reptile or amphibian keeping. Heck in dart frogs, most serious keepers/breeders dont even mix subspecies or locales and I think thats the best way to do it. The naturally occuring species, subspecies and populations have so much to offer and so many of them are rapidly dissappearing, why not do what we can to preserve them in captivity while we still can.

[Aaron_S]

This is a rather hot topic amongst reptile forums. Some people think it's cool and others, not so much.

At least with the wall you can tell it's neither a woma nor ball python. The carpall, well you can tell it's not a ball python but I could see someone trying to pass it off as some sort of variation of "jungle carpet".

The reason it's a hot topic is because people like to keep their bloodlines "pure". If you take that carpall for example and then breed it into some jungle carpets, then you've got a whole clutch of mixed genes. The problem with this is the breeder can't always control where these animals end up, or sold as what. The original breeder could say they were 75% carpet and 25% ball python but the person who buys it or breeds it again may only say it's pure carpet.

It's frowned upon to do such things with the intentions of doing something cool. Also, snake hybrids are NOT sterile.

[Hillsberry]

The snakes are very pretty though. But I would never get one.

[gonesnakee]

I'm a fence sitter as I am OK with some Hybrids but not OK with others.
The above are not desirable IMHO why anyone would want to hybridize any Python is beyond me pretty much, however I have no real issues with most Colubrid hybrids.
Crossing common American species is one thing.
Hybridizing CITES stuff from Austrailia where all export is prohibited is totally another.
Why anyone would want to cross a short fat ugly snake from Africa with a nice long slender beauty from Austrailia is beyond me anyways LOL (that will ge Mykee going ;) :p LOL)
As for them being "sterile" not sure on any of the Python hybrids really as they hold ZERO interest to me, but the Colubrid hybrids breed quite well with each other or back to their parent species or other subspecies & species as well.
You get some wild colors & patterns going on as well but when crossing Pythons usually end up with dull drab looking things that are sterile more often than not I would think, which is maybe a good thing, Mark

[Aaron_S]

Mark, there are quite a few python hybrids now. The first one (to my knowledge) was the borneo bat eater. The retic x burm. It took a long time to get those babies but they are not sterile. There are 75% retic and 75% burms running (slithering) around. To my knowledge, no reptile hybrid has been proven sterile.

[mykee]

Why anyone would want to cross a short fat ugly snake from Africa with a nice long slender beauty from Austrailia is beyond me

I agree!!!
As for the "ugly" part Isbell....

[gonesnakee]

Ya Bateaters are big ugly snakes as well LOL
There are some that look not too bad, kind of Jaguarish, but one could just buy a Jaguar.
They are the only ones I have ever really heard of folks having the breeding success that folks have with Colubrid Hybrids.
I think some of the Carpondro crap will pan out as well as its all Morelia afterall, they look wicked as babies but turn out ugly as sin after a year or so.
Not sure about the above BP crap or some other thngs folks have tried.
Like whatever happened to the Woma X IJs? for example.
I agree that as far as folks thinking they are all sterile that they are most indeed wrong, but may be correct in some cases? Time will tell LOL Mark

[gonesnakee]

I agree!!!
As for the "ugly" part Isbell....

Ya I thru in that 1 word just for you LOL :p Mark

[Aaron_S]

Why do you feel differently about colubrids and pythons Mark? Just curious as I know some morphs are just hybrids. The creamsicle corns come to mind.

[gonesnakee]

Why do you feel differently about colubrids and pythons Mark? Just curious as I know some morphs are just hybrids. The creamsicle corns come to mind.

HUGE difference between CITES stuff & the "dime a dozen" stuff native to the US.
That as well as none of the Python Hybrids do it for me.
Most appear to be dull drab looking snakes IMHO
Why take 2 nice looking species & make a crappy looking mutt?
Even some Colubrid crossings folks do are just butt ugly LOL
The object of hybridizing is to make more colorfull or nicer patterned animals or to bred a certain gene be it either color or pattern into another species.
Not just throw whatever males & females togther to see what pops out.
Look at pics of say Junglecorns they have all kinds of stuff going on, the best of both parent species. I look at the above & see none of that happening.
Like I said I'm a fence sitter IE: Hypocrite Mark

[emseeKAY]

im not sure where i read that many are sterile but thats the internet for ya lol as for me ill stick with the non-hybrids, oh well to each his (or her) own i guess

[Will0W783]

I am also pretty much a fence-sitter with the hybrids. I do like the wall, and I think it's a neat-looking snake. I happen to think carpondros are pretty even as adults- I saw pictures of a cobalt blue and black one; it was amazing. But I think that hybridizing is something one has to be very careful with. Breeders cannot always control where their animals end up, but microchipping hybrids, or at least being very selective in who you sell to, could help a bit. I really love the Superball (ball x blood) and am thinking of maybe trying to breed some myself someday once I have significant breeding experience just breeding pure lines.

[marvelfreak]

I mean yes there's alot of cool snakes. But i feel there's a big differents between crossing a borneo short tail with a blood (cousin) compared crossin a ball with a woma. Not even close to the same species or sub species. On some snakes it's get harder to find pure breed. I want a Diamond carpet that looks like one, not a Jungle. I guess i am a fence sitter to a point. My question is where's the line?

[Will0W783]

My question is where's the line?
That's a tough one...I want a diamond python that looks like a diamond too. I've seen some 75% diamond/jungles that look quite a bit like diamonds, but they still aren't the real thing. I think carpets are probably the most commonly crossed pythons- you see an awful lot of jungle/jags, and jungle/jag sibs, and IJ/jags, and IJ/jungles. I have an 8 foot male that is probably part coastal, but I seriously doubt pure, as he's all grey, white and black with none of the brown and tan seen on pure coastals. He's a wonderful pet but I will never breed him as I have no idea of his lineage, or his age for that matter.

[citysnakes]

there is no line. breeding a snake from africa to a snake from australia is just as unnatural as keeping one of these snakes captive in an artificial environment in north america. hybridization can occur naturally in the wild just as snakes live naturally in the wild. artificial hybridization is just as artificial as keeping a snake captive in an artificial environment. hybrids, morphs, genetic defects or whatever you'll still have dirtbags trying to rip you off to make a buck. as long as an animal is honestly represented then its fine to me. now go to your snake room, breed your (insert species name here) to your (insert different species name here) and make millions.

[gonesnakee]

On the Diamond & Carpets these are NOT Hybrids folks ;)
They are all the same species & in most cases are naturally occurring intergrades.
Their natural ranges all touch apon ione another & or overlap & they breed naturally that way in the wild.
Intergrades occur naturally in the wild, Hybrids DO NOT & are a in captivity thing.
Huge difference between the 2 anyways.
That said yes with the whole Jaguar deal & other genes there are tons of crosses out there now & it can be difficult to obtain "pure" lines.
If you were in Canada I could sell you some pure Diamonds ;) Cheers Mark
edit - also on pure Diamonds some folks have the misconception that if there is any yellow in them they are not pure, which is very wrong if you look at the ones out of Austrailia as they can be a very distinct white/black or high yellow as well or anyhwere inbetween.
2nd edit - there are rumours of a few possible naturally occuring "hybrids: as well but cannot be proven. I can;t recall offhand what they are "supposed" to be?

[Will0W783]

Well, Mark, I guess I will just have to move to Canada- lol. I've seen what you produce, and you do make some gorgeous snakes. If you ever start exporting to the US let me know and I'll be sure to do business with you! :)

[reptile king]

The best way it to stay pure, don't make hybrids, its not proper and not to be done, a true keeper, will stand behind this, and that what a lot of people i know do, i am a part of an association, not for snakes, but if i breed different types of the same family of birds together, and make pied and that, im out, and its a bi deal, different morphs of bp are great, but not hybrids, thats all i got to say

[percey39]

You are right mark, the diamond and carpet hybrid is misleading. They are actually intergrades as they do merge environments here. I love diamonds and i personally only really like the high yellow or whites. These are naturally occuring colours, it is pretty easy when you know what you are looking for to see hybrid traits in diamonds.
I dont believe in hybrids they look no where near as good IMO. We are just starting to see it happening here with breeders pumping out jags and calling them Reduced Pattern Morphs. I hate the idea of this happening here as we can only have native species and i believe this is going to destroy everything so many have worked so hard to achieve here.
I just hope we all can keep proven pure lines.

Regards Aaron

[marvelfreak]

I just recently seen pics of diamonds with yellow and they rock.

[marvelfreak]

I just don't like the jungle x diamonds because of the band. True diamonds don't have band going around. By the way Mark i seen pics of your Diamonds and they are beautiful snake

[citysnakes]

In my understanding, taxonomically, an intergrade is a cross between subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species and both can occur in nature. In captivity, subspecies do not naturally merge to create an intergrade. they are intentionally placed together to produce a cross just as animals from different species are placed together to produce a cross. For this reason I think all captive crosses can be called hybrids. Lots of people who disagree with hybrids like to call their own crosses intergrades to preserve some sense of right and wrong. In my opinion captive intergrades and hybrids are the same thing regardless of the terminology used to justify one over the other.

[gonesnakee]

In my understanding, taxonomically, an intergrade is a cross between subspecies and a hybrid is a cross between different species and both can occur in nature. In captivity, subspecies do not naturally merge to create an intergrade. they are intentionally placed together to produce a cross just as animals from different species are placed together to produce a cross. For this reason I think all captive crosses can be called hybrids. Lots of people who disagree with hybrids like to call their own crosses intergrades to preserve some sense of right and wrong. In my opinion captive intergrades and hybrids are the same thing regardless of the terminology used to justify one over the other.
Ya OK LMAO HUGE HUGE difference between lets say a Diamond/Coastal cross Python who are of the same species & share some of the same natural ranges & a proven naturally occurring intergrade & a "Wall" lets say.
Which of course is an obvious Hybrid involving 2 very seperate distinct species, from 2 very seperate distinct ranges which will NEVER occur "naturally" due to the fact they are not even found on the same continent.
Can you see the difference Boys & Girls? I most definitely can.
The whole what occurs "naturally" arguement is a mute point anyways as absolutely NOTHING we do with these animals in captivity is "natural" by any means.
Reguardless what a person like myself does with Aussie Pythons in my upstairs bedroom is going to have ZERO affect on natural populations.
However what an Aussie keeper does with those same Pythons in Austrailia could be of some concern. If it is a naturally occurring intergrade such as a Diamond X CCP no big deal, but once you start to mix things that do not occur naturally that a potential issue may arise IF they were ever allowed back into the natural populations. Like releasing "Walls" for example.
As for most NA Colubrid Hybrids other than the Corn/Ratsnake crosses which can & will occur naturally where ranges overlap most of them will never happen in nature.
All the Junglecorns or any of the King crosses will not happen in nature.
The Kingsnakes will make the other species lunch.
The exceptions of course being some of the King/King crosses like say Graybands with a Variable King.
When most kings come across anything such as a Corn it is a potential meal NOT a potential mate LOL Heck when same species Kings meet in nature it can be either or both LOL
I for one see some significant differences anyways on whats "natural" & what is not, Cheers Mark

[citysnakes]

The whole what occurs "naturally" arguement is a mute point anyways as absolutely NOTHING we do with these animals in captivity is "natural" by any means.

Mark you totally missed my point as this is what i was saying in the first place.

one reason why people favor captive intergrades over captive hybrids is because they are seen as naturally occuring in overlapping areas of some single region. a hybrid, in captivity, especially from two different species from two different continents is seen as "unnatural" and frowned upon.

hybrids can occur in nature and obviously two different species from two different continents may never meet (its possible though...) but two different species meeting in overlapping areas from the same continent is definitely possible.

Mark life on earth is not limited to carpets and aussie pythons. hybrids occur in nature between many species of plants and animals. thats one point. the next point is because nothing we do in captivity is natural in anyway whatsoever, intergrades should not be favoured and hybrids frowned upon because one is seen as natural while the other one is not. in captivity they are both an artificial or man made product of a somewhat controlled experiment.

nobody has to agree with my opinion but maybe now you'll actually understand it instead of LYAO at it.

[gonesnakee]

Oh I'll still LOL at you don;t worry about that :p
I agree with some of your points, as for the part on plants & animals I'm only here talking about snakes ;)
Like I orginally said I'm a fence sitter on the subject agree with some things but not with others etc. lots of grey areas within the grey area so to speak ;) :p LOL Cheers Mark

[percey39]

In australia we do have natural intergrades which were caught in the wild and bred. These are not hybrids in any way what so ever. I find all true hybrids are filth IMHO they are not natural and will destroy the hobby as its will be hard to obtain TRUE blood lines. I know over there its nearly impossible to get pure diamonds and thats a big shame, they are great looking snakes and i believe the problem will only get worse with what some are doing over there. Its a huge market and i cant understand why. The only reason i can think of is that most are bought by people just starting out and wanting "pretty snakes, with heaps of colours"
I dont think intergrades are happening in australia, but i honestly find it hard to see a jungle breeding with a diamond in the wild. To me thats like saying a scrub will breed with a gtp or a boa and retic, it just isnt believable. I am glad it is illegal here to cross species, but am not a stupid person and i know it is happening. I just hope it doesnt continue.
Cheers

[Good 'N Plenty]

as long as an animal is honestly represented then its fine to me.

Absolutely agree.

I find the Walls/Carpall/Bateates ALL to be gorgeous snakes. Heck, bateaters are some of my favorites.
http://www.mccarthyboas.com/images/NRBCA_2009_78.jpg
To me thats a stunning animal, genetics aside.

However, I do feel that ANY hybrid should always be represented as entirely what it is, and this is what I feel causes most people their distress with hybrids.

Too many people will/do try to turn a quick buck off hybrids by passing them off as pure/more complex or rare than they really are, and this is a serious issue. If only people were as simple and straight forward as the snakes we all love!

[gonesnakee]

Anothr tibit or 2 to add in regaurds to Aussie Carpets etc.
Where do folks think most all the regular siblings end up from Jaguar breedings?
Wholesalers/Petstores thus why so many folks are against the Jaguar Xs.
We all know WS & PS don't have the best track record on keeping species straight, let alone subspecies Xs or Hybrids for that matter.
I don't know how many times I've had to expalin that a Jaguar sibling is NOT het for Jaguar & doesn't matter if its called a Jungle Jag or a sibling from it they are all still crosses & evey single Jag or sib has CCP in it despite what folks think.
Same for Junglecorns they are NOT Cornsnakes! They are not a morph they are a hybrid.
Thus many of the antihybrid & anti X type folks having some valid points in regaurds to such as some are misrepresented, however all species are as far as some PS & WS go whether pure, X'd or hybridized. Mark
edit - I had a huge fight with a PS MNG once over a Junglecorn, this girl insisted it was a Cornsnake & should be labelled as such.
I let her go on for quite a while before pointing that I was the one that bred & sold them the snake in question.
That sure shut her up quick & burst her bubble in a hurry & she wasn't a MNG long after that either.

[Will0W783]

Lol- yeah, it's tough when people don't bother to learn what the different hybrids are and mislabel them or try to sell them as something they arent.

[citysnakes]

Oh I'll still LOL at you don;t worry about that :p

i look forward to it!

i agree with some of your points as well but we have differing opinions on others but who doesnt?