New, and have some questions [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-02-09, 09:36 AM

Well, I'm pretty sure that after college I will be ready. I would NEVER buy a pet then let it loose in the wild, I've read so many stories about that happening. IF I decided one day it was getting too big, I would most likely try to sell her or give her to a zoo. In my opinion, leaving an animal that has been kept in a tank for several years on the side of a road to fend for itself in a climate it doesn't event belong in, that's close to animal cruelty
I know I could handle a snake fine, I've always owned big pets. The whole six foot rule seems over the top to me. I've seen guys with bigger ones by themselves. I can't see how geting wrapped (unless both your hands, feet, and mouth are covered) could be a problem. You could always call for help, dial a phone (even have an alarm set to call someone when youhit a button, be it with you feet or hands as long as it's always close to you), or just remove the snake yourself.
I have to admit though, like I said, I'm new, never been wrapped let alone even owned a burm. Just putting out ideas and asking questions.
What is it like to be wrapped? I can't imagine it's so painful you can't call for help or do something if you are alone. Though I have heard that getting wrapped is worse that bitten. I know a few ways to get the snake off if it does wrap you (vinegar or alcohol in it's face), but other than that, I really don't know anything about the whole subject and learning more would be greatly appreciated as that is the only big problem I could see with having a giant burm.

DeesBalls

11-02-09, 07:37 PM

maybe you should start off with a ball python and maybe get a burm later on...

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-02-09, 07:49 PM

I wrote a post this morning and it seems to have disappeared somehow. :confused::confused:

I am used to owning large pets, I would NEVER drop any pet (no matter how big) on the side of the road. It goes against my morals to do something like that. If I buy one, I'm going to make sure I have enough time and money to commit to it.

Also, just to clarify, when I say I think it's be awesome to wrestle with a 15' burm, I don't mean I'm looking to get wrapped. I mean that it would make an epic fight scene, like something you'd see in a movie or something. You know what I mean? If I'm not making myself clear, let me know.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-03-09, 10:20 AM

So I thought of this question yesterday. Some people say that, in order to get a constrictor off you once it has wrapped, use vinegar, hot/cold water, or alcohol in its mouth and it will release.

But how does one go about reaching for a bottle of vinegar/alcohol/cold or warm water if your hands are pinned to your sides by three or four coils?
Keep in mind, this scenario involved being alone with your constrictor, where you can't just call someone (that is, for those of you who do handle alone)

As I thought about it question earlier, I wondered if anyone has one of those panic buttons that alerts authorities or friends/family that you need help. If you kept that in your pocket, I could see where even with a 175lb burm wrapped up all over you, you could reach into your pocket or even find the button from the outside? Sound like a good idea?

Anyone else have any good wrap stories? They probably make for awesome stories to tell at parties.
I heard one yesterday about an american tourist who was wading a river in brazil, last one to cross. A 22' conda grabbed him and wrapped him up pretty tight in FIVE coils, one on his forehead, and four on his chest. Nobody could get it off for a while and the guy was about to pass out, then the conda just loosened up. There is a picture of him sitting in some grass with the coils all over him and he's all calm, his friend has a gun pointed at its head. The tourist guy made the dude with the gun let the snake go. Crazy story...
Here's a link to one page, it doesn't have the full story, couldn't find it.

Good 'N Plenty

11-03-09, 11:48 AM

I am used to owning large pets, I would NEVER drop any pet (no matter how big) on the side of the road. It goes against my morals to do something like that. If I buy one, I'm going to make sure I have enough time and money to commit to it.

Very admirable, and doing your homework is step one!

Also, just to clarify, when I say I think it's be awesome to wrestle with a 15' burm, I don't mean I'm looking to get wrapped. I mean that it would make an epic fight scene, like something you'd see in a movie or something. You know what I mean? If I'm not making myself clear, let me know

While I do understand what you mean (you don't want to get wrapped, but interacting with such a powerful animal is always an unbelievable experience) I would suggest that using such a phrase might bring you a lot of unwanted criticism. While the idea of tackling a 15ft snake might sound epic, reality is rarely what we see in our imagination, and I doubt you would feel so epic should it occur. Let us not forget, coils are but part of a large constrictors arsenal. Those teeth are not to be ignored!

So I thought of this question yesterday. Some people say that, in order to get a constrictor off you once it has wrapped, use vinegar, hot/cold water, or alcohol in its mouth and it will release.
But how does one go about reaching for a bottle of vinegar/alcohol/cold or warm water if your hands are pinned to your sides by three or four coils?

1) Anacondas (from what I have seen/experienced) typically coil their prey more than most snakes, looping an extra coil or 2 around, and from the burm feedings I have watched, they don't coil the same way. (If any owners have conflicting evidence, by all means teach me of my error! :))
2) While snakes are predatory, they are also opportunists. If a snake is laying around your neck or across your shoulders, that is where its going to coil (most likely). Snakes dont plan to go for the hands to pin you, its not in their brain capacity.
3) So, in order to get both hands pinned you would need to be in a position that provided said opportunity. Even sitting with a large constrictor in your lap, unless they hit you in 1 arm and drag you to the floor, I find it hard to figure when you'd get both hands pinned, though of course people have been killed by constrictors. However, in these cases, as far as I have read, in the cases involving adults, constriction has usually been around the neck as the owner had the snake resting around their shoulders.

As I thought about it question earlier, I wondered if anyone has one of those panic buttons that alerts authorities or friends/family that you need help. If you kept that in your pocket, I could see where even with a 175lb burm wrapped up all over you, you could reach into your pocket or even find the button from the outside? Sound like a good idea?

It's all about foresight, preparation, and composure.

Anyone else have any good wrap stories? They probably make for awesome stories to tell at parties.

The notion of "awesome" wrap stories will, again, only lead people to the notion that you are not ready for snakes like burms. I would leave descriptive terms out of describing wrap/strike stories or use something more like "intense" or "insightful" if you're looking to drum up stories.

I heard one yesterday about an american tourist who was wading a river in brazil, last one to cross. A 22' conda grabbed him and wrapped him up pretty tight in FIVE coils, one on his forehead, and four on his chest. Nobody could get it off for a while and the guy was about to pass out, then the conda just loosened up. There is a picture of him sitting in some grass with the coils all over him and he's all calm, his friend has a gun pointed at its head. The tourist guy made the dude with the gun let the snake go. Crazy story...

Sensationalism I'm sure. Because we've never heard of fake snake stories coming out of Brazil :rolleyes:

So, its been a long post and I'm almost done! whew!

So I would really like to buy a burm after college. There are a few problems though, one, I really don't know what the maintinance costs and prices are going to be to buy and keep one

$75 - 250 depending on breeder/morph, but a few hours on kingsnake.com can tell you a lot more about this.
Expect to be buying a rat pup or large mouse every 7-10 days until it progresses to rats, then onto large/jumbos and eventually on to rabbits, though as it gets larger and is eating bigger meals you can move the feeding to something more like 10 - 14 day shedule. Prices for these vary if you use pet stores, or you can check out rodentpro.com for order prices.

and two, my girlfriend is about 5'5" and very thin. Is she going to be a midday snack for my burm?

No one should ever be a mid-day snack for their snake if they are cautious and take appropriate measures. Any snake over 9-10' should always be handled with another person present, this goes for men and women alike. If proper husbandry is used, this is a question that need never be asked...

Final Opinion:
Your questions suggest a lack of long experience or basic husbandry of large constrictors. If I am wrong, by all means I apologize, but your writing and question path suggests such.
Your question of specifically how much a female burm would cost hints that you want to get a burm that will get BIG.
The notion of wrap stories being good party entertainment is off-puting to say the least.

I suggest RTBs or something of that size range at most for now. Learn the basics before moving to what is, no question, an advanced snake to take care of simply b/c of its size.

Good 'N Plenty

11-03-09, 12:31 PM

It's been to long to amend my previous post any more, but I also forgot to mention that if you are going to be a first time snake owner, even something like a Ball Python might be best.
There are dozens (hundreds I'm sure) of individuals and breeders out there with DECADES of experience who still won't deal with any of the Big 4 (Burms, Retics, Af Rocks, Condas) due to size reasons.
I myself have had snakes since I was very young and only felt comfortable moving to a female yellow anaconda a year ago (Just a piece of annecdotal evidence!)

Will0W783

11-04-09, 06:55 AM

I agree with Good 'N Plenty. While you do seem to have the right attitude towards commitment to a pet, you also have said some disturbing things about snake strikes and wrapping being "awesome". I have kept snakes for 5 years and other reptiles for 15, and I don't deal with retics, burms, or 'condas, due to the fact that I don't want to have anything I can't handle on my own. I do have a superdwarf retic- she is aorund 7 feet long. I would recommend one of those if you really want a larger snake- they get 6-8 feet and are stunning animals. Baby, mine, is very docile and curious. Another good choice would be a carpet python- they can get 6-8 feet long and are known for their good tempers and slow, methodic way of moving. Honestly, I would stay away from the giant pythons until you've had a bit more experience.
Owning a snake is a big responsibility. The animal depends on you for EVERYTHING- food, water, light, heat. A caged pet cannot get itself water or move to a warmer room. You also need to learn how snakes think in order to predict their behavior and understand why they do the things they do. I would recommend getting yourself some good books and reading them before you get any snake. Nothing beats doing your homework first, rather than finding things out the hard way. Best of luck, whatever you decide. But remember, a snake striking is not "awesome" - it means the animal is hungry or it is scared and trying to defend itself. Your goal should be to not get struck at and to never get wrapped.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-04-09, 11:02 AM

Alright. I got a lot of questions here. :rolleyes:

Well, I have to say I agree with both of you for the most part. Though many people have told me I should start with something small, I would really like to start with a bigger animal. I’ve ruled out condas and retics simply because in my opinion, they are too aggressive and will get far too big for a first pet. I don’t want something that gets over 20’ as well as comes with rumors of actually killing people (whether they are true or not). Though, don’t let what I just said lead you to believe I’m afraid to own one. I think I would be comfortable owning one of those later in life, but just getting out of college, I don’t need 20+’ worth of writhing coils to deal with. You know what I mean?
The size range I’m looking to start with for my first snake is about 13-16’. Burms are the right length and are not as aggressive as many of the others snakes around.

Here’s a few questions directed to what Good ‘N Plenty posted, regarding what you said:

Also Good ‘N Plenty, you said that condas constrict differently than burms. What do you mean? Was it just in the fact that anacondas use more coils to wrap with?

On the part about it being ‘awesome’ to get wrapped, yes, you did get the gist of what I was talking about. So let me rephrase, “Do any of you have any intense wrap stories that you would share?” Better?

The story I posted about the guy in Brazil getting attacked by an anaconda is not a fable. I do have a link somewhere that I can give you where there is a picture and the full story. When I can find that link, I’ll post it.

Many of you have also told me that with the proper care and handling, no accidents will ever happen. On that, I will have to disagree. I don’t own any snakes anymore and have never owned a giant, but I could venture to say that all animals have bad days and even with the proper methods, if the snake is pissed off and you are trying to handle it, there is a chance of something happening. If I am wrong, please let me know.

What are your methods for handling constrictors? I mean like, how do you pick them up, what do you use to do it and how do you hold a snake once it’s outside its cage? I’ve heard many different ways that people do it, but I want to know the most efficient method to do so.

The only other two questions I can think of off the top of my head are;

What do you do with any snake once you’ve gotten it out? Do you just let it hang out with you while you do stuff around the house, etc? (Sorry, guess that’s a double sided question :D )

I’ve heard that very large snakes are used for medicinal purposes. What the heck does that mean? Do doctors make the snake bit a person to let blood out of a swollen area? That seems a little barbaric and dangerous as many snakes carry diseases. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Sorry for all the questions, good luck answering them. If someone is gonna go for answering all of them at once, perhaps you could number them for me. My apologies that I did not. :/

Good 'N Plenty

11-04-09, 01:34 PM

I’ve ruled out condas and retics simply because in my opinion, they are too aggressive and will get far too big for a first pet.
Retics and Burms tend to stay around the same sizes, and there are various methods to "tame" snakes. Aggression in neonates/juveniles can usually be trained out through a variety of methods.

I don’t want something that gets over 20’ as well as comes with rumors of actually killing people (whether they are true or not).
Males burms usually end up in the range of 10'-15' (there are always exceptions) and female burms have an even wider range, which is typically 14'+.
*Make no mistake, tragic accidents have occured with ALL the major Giants (Burms, Af Rocks, Green Condas, Retics).*

Though, don’t let what I just said lead you to believe I’m afraid to own one. I think I would be comfortable owning one of those later in life, but just getting out of college, I don’t need 20+’ worth of writhing coils to deal with. You know what I mean?
The chances of a retic/conda breaking 20 feet are practically identical to the odds of a burm doing the same...

The size range I’m looking to start with for my first snake is about 13-16’. Burms are the right length and are not as aggressive as many of the others snakes around.
Male burms fall within that range, but as I said, females definitely have the capacity to exceed that. Additionally - the difference in how you handle a 12' foot snake vs how you handle a 20'+ snake is no different regarding your safety. Period.
Any snake over 10' long should be handled with at least 2 people present, and once you've broken the 13' foot mark (give or take) you will find that the additional length is not what makes the larger snakes powerful, but the girth, of which Anacondas are the definite champs, but Burms, Retics, Af Rocks all fall within near identical ranges.

More to the point - deciding to keep any of the giants is only 1/4 about what you want. The other 3/4 are about what you get and what you can handle. What you want and what will be best for the snake are not always the same.
My goal has always been to own large constrictors, I have loved them since I first got into snakes and snake ownership at 8. Up until this last year I've owned 1 type of snake, Ball Pythons, simply due to size and logistical constraints.
Hypothetical - Your burm hits 12+ feet and you don't have this same girlfriend with you in the future. Will you call someone over every time you want to handle it?

Also Good ‘N Plenty, you said that condas constrict differently than burms. What do you mean? Was it just in the fact that anacondas use more coils to wrap with?
Yes, right off the bat they throw an extra coil around the prey than most constrictors.

Many of you have also told me that with the proper care and handling, no accidents will ever happen. On that, I will have to disagree. I don’t own any snakes anymore and have never owned a giant, but I could venture to say that all animals have bad days and even with the proper methods, if the snake is pissed off and you are trying to handle it, there is a chance of something happening. If I am wrong, please let me know.

No one is saying accidents will never happen, but WRAPPING is one of those things that is highly avoidable if you know how to read your snakes. Of the giants, only Anacondas strike at 90 degree slashing movements (not when striking to constrict, but simply as defensive). The rest have signs to give warnings, and time/experience is the teacher of what these are. They are very similar through ALL snakes for the most part.

What are your methods for handling constrictors? I mean like, how do you pick them up, what do you use to do it and how do you hold a snake once it’s outside its cage? I’ve heard many different ways that people do it, but I want to know the most efficient method to do so.
A lot of people like hook training, but I simply use my hands. When I first reach in (away from their head) I rest my hand on them to let the snake know they are about to be touched/held. I slide them to the front of the tank, out and into my hands/arms.

Last point:
the size range I’m looking to start with for my first snake is about 13-16’
weighed against:
Many of you have also told me that with the proper care and handling, no accidents will ever happen. On that, I will have to disagree. I don’t own any snakes anymore and have never owned a giant

Based on your line of questioning, incudling "how do you do pick up and then hold constrictors once their outside the cage", I am inclined to believe the notion that this would indeed be your first snake.
As such, I cannot help but emphasize that what you want may not be what's in the snake's best interests.
It takes people many years of experience in most cases to be able to handle and take care of these snakes properly.

Again, I suggest Red Tail Boas as a wonderful introductory snake to handling bigger constrictors and also second Willow's suggestion of Carpet Pythons.

Aaron_S

11-04-09, 02:28 PM

Would you please stop feeding the troll.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-05-09, 10:09 AM

Aaron, how am i trolling? I have valid questions here, you might think them stupid, but like I said in the title of this thread, I am new and don't know a lot about burms.

Retics and Burms tend to stay around the same sizes, and there are various methods to "tame" snakes. Aggression in neonates/juveniles can usually be trained out through a variety of methods.

If retics and burms stay the same size, why would someone buy a burm instead of retic or the other way around? Is it strictly preference?

More to the point - deciding to keep any of the giants is only 1/4 about what you want. The other 3/4 are about what you get and what you can handle. What you want and what will be best for the snake are not always the same.
My goal has always been to own large constrictors, I have loved them since I first got into snakes and snake ownership at 8. Up until this last year I've owned 1 type of snake, Ball Pythons, simply due to size and logistical constraints.
Hypothetical - Your burm hits 12+ feet and you don't have this same girlfriend with you in the future. Will you call someone over every time you want to handle it?

Your hypothetical makesfor a good question. When my burm does get over 12’ and IF my girlfriend walks, well then yes, I am going to need to have people with me to handle it. In regards to my future plans, I have never planned to be far from friends or family. Now, if I am too far for someone to come over or don’t know anyone to call, then I’m going to have to sell it or give it to a zoo (like I said earlier, it’s against my morals to dump any pet on the side of the road and even in the worst case, I could hardly consider putting it down. What to do with it can be planned later on if something like that actually happens, but if I do end up living in a place where I don’t know anyone, I’m either not going to buy one at all, or wait until I find people who can be there while I’m handling.

Yes, right off the bat they throw an extra coil around the prey than most constrictors.

Why would they do that? If they are the same length as a burm, yet a burm uses less and can still get the job done, why? Just because they can, or is it a primal instinct?

Based on your line of questioning, incudling "how do you do pick up and then hold constrictors once their outside the cage", I am inclined to believe the notion that this would indeed be your first snake.

It would be my first giant cbb snake. I’ve kept various other snakes found in the forest and long grass for months upon end until my mother finds them and makes me get rid of them because she hates snakes. :rolleyes:

As such, I cannot help but emphasize that what you want may not be what's in the snake's best interests.
It takes people many years of experience in most cases to be able to handle and take care of these snakes properly.

Again, I suggest Red Tail Boas as a wonderful introductory snake to handling bigger constrictors and also second Willow's suggestion of Carpet Pythons.

Aye, I’ve heard this before and my response is that I have another 3-4 years before getting out of college and being able to consider buying any snake. I will have to be out of the house, and that’s going to be a while as well. So I have plenty of time to consider what I’m going to buy and how to care for it. As for now, I am extremely interested in buying a burm, but who knows, I may change my mind. What I’m trying to say I guess, is that I’m not going to throw out your advice.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-08-09, 01:05 AM

Good N' Plenty did you have anything more here?

siz

11-08-09, 08:22 AM

I'd just like to point out that zoo's do not readily take in unwanted ex-pets so it' definatley not an option you should consider for getting rid of your burm if you can't take care of it.

Will0W783

11-08-09, 08:24 AM

I would strongly suggest getting some books on giant pythons and reading them. I would also suggest spending some time with someone who has a giant python so you can get some hands-on experience and learn about them and how they move, behave, etc. You should never, ever, hold a snake longer than 8 feet without someone else in the room. It might seem over the top to you because you've never had hands-on experience with these snakes, but if you hold a 12'-15' snake, you will begin to understand the incredible power it has. A 6 foot snake, if in the right position with the right girth, could theoretically kill you if it got around your neck. An 8 foot snake as well. Anything larger, definitely. While most Burmese pythons are docile and easy-going snakes, all it takes is one time. In my honest opinion, and I am not trying to be mean or unfair, you do not have anywhere near the right frame of mind to own ANY snake, let alone a giant python. A snake will depend on you for everything- food, water, hiding places, clean bedding, heat and coolness, interaction. Snakes will also live 20-30 years in captivity. It is a big, serious responsibility. The fact that you said if you thought your future snake was getting too big you'd sell it is a big red flag. You need to understand the space and time requirements BEFORE you buy and make sure you are ready to take care of that animal for its entire life. Also, you seem to think wrestling and fighting with a snake is "cool". That is definitely NOT a good frame of mind, and you are asking for trouble thinking that way. Your goal should be to have only positive interactions with your snake.
This does not mean I don't think you should ever own a snake, just that I think you need to change your thinking and get some experience around people who own snakes before you even consider getting one. I also do not think a giant python should be your first snake. I am willing to talk to you and help you learn and give you advice, but only you can make yourself mature enough to be ready for a giant python. I've been keeping snakes for over 5 years, and other reptiles my entire life, and I do not consider myself ready for a giant python, because I understand what owning one entails and I prefer to stick with slightly smaller species. Do your research, get some experience, and go from there. Good luck.

citysnakes

11-08-09, 09:59 AM

i think we all need to chill on the "epic burm battle" comment as it clearly was a joke...

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-08-09, 01:18 PM

Will0W, what if I don't have any friends who own a giant? The only time I've ever interacted with a giant was right before we moved I believe. A man brought a 7' retic in one day for us to see and hold. I can access books and other written information, heck, I'm here on this forum for that reason. If I can't get to someone who owns a big one, how am I going to get a hands on experience to Learn how they move and behave? It's not like if I never hold a big snake before owning one, the one I buy is going to know that and as soon as it gets a chance throw a couple coils around me and kill me because of it. The general feeling I'm getting from you is that you're saying that unless I have had experience owning a snake and have read all about them, I'm gonna get wrapped or bitten when I go out and buy a burm as my first big snake. I know you mean well, though I have been told that if they are handled correctly and are cbb, I will never have a problem. So to me, it would seem that as long as I read about them and learn as much as possible before buying it, I should be fine as long as I'm always alert and handling properly. That make any sense?

Citysnakes, thanks. I've said numerous times that people were taking it the wrong way and have explained myself. I'm not sure what else I can do at this point.

Will0W783

11-09-09, 08:48 AM

No I'm not trying to say that. I just was concerned about the attitude you seemed to have about being bitten/wrapped. If you don't know anyone who has one, then yes, reading about them and doing your research should be fine. I just wanted to make sure you had the right frame of mind about it is all. I love snakes and dont' want to ever discourage someone from owning them, but they are a big responsibility and require a certain maturity. Burms are generally quite docile, so if you get a young one and handle it regularly you most likely won't have problems. I'm sorry to have come down on you, you are doing the right thing by researching before you buy. Just be careful and smart about it and you should be fine. Best of luck, and again I didn't mean to offend you, just wanted to make sure where you were coming from considering how you opened your thread.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-09-09, 09:20 AM

I had heard about snake wrestling as a sport somewhere before and thought it sounded very interesting. To clarify, I think it sounds interesting as in intriguing, not as in ‘I want to do that’. The joke about wrestling a 15’ burm came from the idea of wrestling snakes that I had heard of earlier that day. The whole wrestling thing is an interesting concept, but at the same time, Im thinking a bad idea. From what I’ve learned so far, getting on any snake’s bad side is a big mistake, that’s why I’m trying to learn what I can about them before buying one. I don’t want something bad to happen. Have you ever heard of wrestling like that before?

Will0W783

11-09-09, 11:02 AM

Ohhh ok...I wasn't aware that you were joking about that- your phrasing made it sound as if you honestly thought it would be "awesome" and "epic" to wrestle your pet burm, which had me worried because you could be killed doing that kind of thing. I know different cultures have different customs with snakes. I have heard of wrestling giant snakes for fun, but not as so much of a legitimate sport. Jackass guys did a stunt with two aggressive green anacondas in a ball pit and got pretty torn up by the snakes. They were trying to find the snakes in the balls and wrestle them out. It does sound like an interesting concept, but really stupid as well- people could very easily be killed, even if there were a lot of people, getting a constricting python off a guy could be next to impossible without killing the snake and that's just cruel.
Basically, getting on any snake's bad side is detrimental to you and the animal. You can get hurt, and the animal can get unnecessarily stressed. But almost any snake can be tamed down with calm, consistent handling. For example, I have a 5-foot Macklot's python that was not handled very much. He is calm if you are wearing a long-sleeved shirt and gloves, but if I held him bare-handed or with my arms bear, he bites. It's more of a food response than aggression with him, so I handle him only with gloves and a sweatshirt on so as to be able to condition him to interaction without "asking for it" or adding too much stress for him.
I know most people who have Burms say they are "gentle giants" and they are similar to an overgrown ball python in demeanor and activity, but those snakes have probably been handled a lot since early age.
Now that I know you were only joking before, your other questions and attitudes sound ok. You just want to really consider how much space a 15' snake will take up. Most captive Burmese pythons get 13-17', average around 12-14' from what I've read. They can get up to 20'+ but most don't do to controlled feeding and space. But a 15' snake will need an enclosure that is 8' x8' x2' minimum, preferable an enclosure it can stretch out in, so ideally 15'x8'x2'. That's basically a whole room to itself. Heating an enclosure that large will be very expensive and the animal will need to eat rabbits or chickens when it is full-grown. You want to consider where you can get those prey items near you and get the snake eating frozen/thawed rodents while young so you can more easily and affordably get it larger prey items when it is full-grown.
You will probably be best off getting a baby Burmese python so you can get it used to you and work on shaping its temperament from a young age. The snake will easily double its first year of life,half again as much or more its second year, and likely half again as much its third year. So that 3-foot baby will be 6 feet in a year, 9-12 feet its second year, and up to 16' its third year. From then on it will only get fatter, possibly gain a foot or so every few years. It will be cheapest if you buy second-hand cages or build your own as you will need to increase size a lot during the first two years until it's up to its adult enclosure. I absolutely love Burmese pythons- they are calm and docile snakes, and very impressive and beautiful, but I would have to sell everything else I own to have the space to house one single adult Burm. So one thing to consider is maybe getting several smaller snakes, so you can have some variety. Carpet pythons are one of my absolute favorites- coastal carpets get 6-8 feet, jungles get 5-6 feet and so do Irian jayas. They are active snakes that like to move around and explore, and they tend to be very calm and docile as adults. I have a 8'4" male carpet coastal intergrade that is one of my absolute favorite snakes. He's active, curious, extremely docile and a good eater. I trust him with little kids and complete strangers as he's never shown any defensiveness or aggression towards anyone. Another cool thing about carpets is that they tend to be "vocal" snakes- some blow air out through their nostrils quite loudly when excited and exploring. It's not quite like a hiss, more like a loud forced sigh, but it's really cute. Voodoo does that all the time, as soon as he comes out of his cage and he climbs all over me huffing loudly and flicking his tongue all over the place. He also loves banisters and the shower curtain rod- he coils his way up them and inches along. And the best thing is, even though he's over 8 feet long, he's only about 8 pounds, so he's light and can easily be managed by one person. If you are at all interested, I have some pictures of him in my Member Gallery here. In the space for one Burm, you could house 2 coastal carpets, or 1 coastal, 1 jungle carpet, 2 ball pythons ( or Blood pythons, or any other small python). Just an idea, because if you're like most of us snake-keepers, you will quickly find that one snake does not satisfy your desire and you'll want this and that and more and it's nice to have space to expand your collection and add some variety. :)

Good 'N Plenty

11-09-09, 11:57 AM

It's not like if I never hold a big snake before owning one, the one I buy is going to know that and as soon as it gets a chance throw a couple coils around me and kill me because of it.
My strongest point was that my concern is first and foremost for the snake. This is because, unlike us humans, the snake has no ability to look into and alter its environment, living conditions or husbandry.

I have been told that if they are handled correctly and are cbb, I will never have a problem. So to me, it would seem that as long as I read about them and learn as much as possible before buying it, I should be fine as long as I'm always alert and handling properly. That make any sense?
Knowledge is power, but knowledge is not the whole thing. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to "practice" in the sense that you gain hands on experience in handling them. Remember - a burm is not always a giant, and for a while you will be handling them much like you would snakes even the size of ball pythons. Not for overly long, but they will be.

I believe I understood your joke was simply misworded from the start (as I made comment on), and from then my concern has been mostly that any suggestions that a burm is not a first snake have been brushed aside to comments of 1) "I have heard they are gentle giants", 2) "I will do my research" and 3) "I am most interested in a large snake."

1) In my opinion, it is true that burms are typically the calmest of the giant constrictors, so I won't disagree with you here, but simply offer the caveat that there are 'never's with snakes.

2) The fact that you are doing research is commendable and encouraging! However, as noted above, one of the facts you have been told numerous times is that knowledge is only 1/2 the preparation in owning a giant.

3) This last point as your main defense for why you want a burm is the one that I have expressly said raises the most flags in my mind. While the desire to have and interact with the animals we are fascinated with is certainly the driving force for us herpers, the fact is what the animal needs and wants is always - and without exception - what comes first.

My wishlist: Male Green Anaconda, Female Burmese Python.
Even assuming I had the money and room for both of these snakes right now, I recognize that the factor that would still stop me from owning them is myself. Not my commitment to my animals or any notion that I would not be attentive to them, but the fact that even though I have years of ever-changing and developing research on them, the fact remains that I have no experience with an animal close to their sizes and I am less worried about anything that might happen to me than I am about what problems my lack of experience my end up causing the snake.
My yellow anaconda is my first venture into larger snakes, but this is after 13 years of herp owning, making mistakes as a child, and learning from hands on experience.
I am not suggesting such a long time of ownership is necessary, I was a child and had no business owning larger snakes. However *nothing* and I do mean NOTHING can replace hands on experience.

If I have offended, I am sorry but what I have read and the defenses of your seemingly-set-in-stone choice to start with a burm, shows to me that you are looking only for information that will help support your desire for a burm. Any information to the contrary has had the rebuttals of "I've heard they're gentle" and "I really want a burm."

The snakes come first.

~ GNP

Will0W783

11-09-09, 02:50 PM

Good points GNP! That is exactly what I was trying to convey to him as well. I also don't consider myself "ready" or prepared for a giant python although I do love them and want one someday. I don't have the time, the space, the money, or the experience handling very large snakes. That's why I suggested he start with something smaller but still impressive like a carpet or a blood or even a red-tail boa (they get 8-10 feet) and build from there. I know several people who have bought retics and burms as first snakes, and most of them have now gotten rid of those giant snakes and moved to smaller animals. It's just that nothing can compare to hands-on experience with these giants (which I admit I myself do not have!).

Rham-es-Hestos, are there any reptile shows near you? Those are excellent places to go and peruse a wide variety of snake species and handle them before you buy. I strongly suggest that whatever snake you do end up getting you do not get it from a pet store. You will pay a lot more for one thing, and pet stores almost never have proper husbandry for their snakes, nor do they know the animals' histories or breeders. It's always best to get a snake directly from the breeder, so you know what it's been eating, any health problems it or its clutchmates may have had, and the genetic history and temperaments of the parents/grandparents, etc.
In fact, if you want to gain handling experience and don't know anyone who owns snakes, start going to shows. It's the best way to get exposure to the snakes and see what's out there. Watch how different sellers handle their animals, what they feed, how often, etc. My knowledge and comfort level with the snakes has skyrocketed since I started going to shows. I have spoken to so many experienced keepers and breeders, gotten word of who is good and who is not, handled hundreds of snakes and seen various temperaments- good and bad....
Where in the US are you? I might be able to suggest a few good shows for you to go to to start getting your exposure.

jmo

11-10-09, 01:02 AM

willow made a good point about the size of a cage u need to keep these guys in.like i said i have a 14' female and a 15' male burm i got a shed like a barn its 12' by 24' to keep some of my guys in .there cage i made is 10'long 4' wide and 3' tall the cage ran me about 150 dollers.i own 2 burms 2 retics 2 anaconds 5 balls 2 red tails 1 rose 3 sav mons 1tegu lots of spiders my feeding bill runs around 500 dollers a month so just keep in mind these guys are not cheap

Will0W783

11-10-09, 09:49 AM

Wow, jmo. You have a full house! My feeding bill for the 40 or so smaller snakes I own runs about $200 a month. Mostly mine eat f/t and I spend about $75 a month or so on f/t, if I figure in how much I buy and how much I use each feeding. I also have a few strictly live feeders, so I spend about $100-120 a month on live mice, crickets and feeder fish. I can imagine my bill will go up more when all the babies grow up, but I don't think it will get as high as yours. Wow, do you breed them to pay for their care?

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-10-09, 10:38 AM

First off, you guys can call me Rham. Es-Hestos is a last name.
Thanks for all this information guys. It’s really helpful, GNP, thanks so much for all your input. I don’t feel insulted in the least. I’m looking at this all as constructive criticism. All the information you guys have given me is great, to tell you the truth, your advice has swayed me as well. I still really want to own a burm, but I’m seeing that it may not be all that good to do so just yet. It will still be a while until I can consider buying any snake like I said and I can’t promise I won’t end up buying a burm but many of the other species you have talked about also sound like beautiful snakes as well as easier to own. My favorite type of burm is probable granite. I’ve only seen a few different types. How many types are there? It would be AMAZING if someone could post pictures of each type here.
Will0W, what you said about the enclosure size kinda confuses me. I’m going to guess that what you meant was that the minimum size should be 8’x2’x2’, though idea would be 8’x15’x2’. Picture this, IF I bought a burm at some point in my life, would a cage protruding two feet from a wall, 10’ wide and 8’ tall with plenty of branches and climbing stuff inside be a good enclosure? I can see being able to heat something like that a little easier. Two heat lamps on each side might be enough? I’m not sure about the whole heating the cage bit, but that’s something I can look further into later. Just wondering if a cage that size would be good enough.
JMO, how long have you owned snakes? That is a LOT of variety. What are you anacondas like? How do you interact with them? I’ve heard about owning anacondas, but they get absolutely gigantic and I can’t see someone carrying one around with them or even having one in the house.

I would think that with all those snakes, you would need to have someone with you at ALL times. Have you ever had an accident? A problem I could see with owning any snake would be feeding/interacting in the mornings when you are tired and not fully awake as it could lead to a mistake on your part. Do any of you have certain hours that you will only allow yourself to handle during?

BTW Will0W, I am in MD

Good 'N Plenty

11-10-09, 11:45 AM

My favorite type of burm is probable granite. I’ve only seen a few different types. How many types are there? It would be AMAZING if someone could post pictures of each type here.
I couldn't agree more. I'm aiming for a female granite burm in another 5 years or so, assuming my time with my yellow conda is agreeable once she maxes out for length (or near-maxes since they never 100% stop growing).

I claim no ownership of any of these photos!

Normal: http://kgarbach.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/burmese-python-python-molurus-3.jpg
Hypo: Hypo burm image by beardo84 on Photobucket (http://media.photobucket.com/image/hypo%20burm/beardo84/My%20Animals/DSC_0016.jpg)
Albino: http://www.mcanv.com/nautic/Chester%20the%20Albino%20Burmese%20Python.jpg
Granite: http://phenomreptiles.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/MY_NEW_GIRL_Nagaina_Khan_7_ft_06_07.17082935_std.J PG
Albino Granite: http://www.highendherps.com/images/Xavier.jpg
Labyrinth: http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/tezmitch/images/Labyrinththumb.jpg
Albino Labyrinth: http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL443/918092/20037202/338692095.jpg (the orange here is b/c its a baby. It will yellow out like all albinos do as it gets older
Patternless aka Green: http://wb7.itrademarket.com/pdimage/43/1127343_dsc01641.jpg
Albino Patternless: Albino patternless burmese python image by tribolonotus001 on Photobucket (http://media.photobucket.com/image/albino%20patternless%20burmese%20python/tribolonotus001/albinoPATTERNLESSgreenBURM4.jpg)

Will0W, what you said about the enclosure size kinda confuses me. I’m going to guess that what you meant was that the minimum size should be 8’x2’x2’, though idea would be 8’x15’x2’.
8x2x2 should be 8x8x2. The latter is the minimum and is what Will0w said. Just a typo I'm sure, but clarified anyways.

IF I bought a burm at some point in my life, would a cage protruding two feet from a wall, 10’ wide and 8’ tall with plenty of branches and climbing stuff inside be a good enclosure? I can see being able to heat something like that a little easier. Two heat lamps on each side might be enough? I’m not sure about the whole heating the cage bit, but that’s something I can look further into later. Just wondering if a cage that size would be good enough.
Floorspace is ALWAYS superior to vertical space for large constrictors. You suggest a 10Lx2Wx8H, where it'd be better to have a 10Lx8Wx2H (the letters stand for length, width (aka depth) and height.

I’ve heard about owning anacondas, but they get absolutely gigantic and I can’t see someone carrying one around with them or even having one in the house.
The difference in a female burm and a female green anaconda is a bit of girth. Other than that they top out in terms of length very similarly.
Additionally only Green Anacondas are considered in the 4 Giants. Yellow condas and Beni Condas tend to max around 13 feet in females, and Dark-spotted conda (aka Deschauensee Anaconda) I am not sure about, as there have only been 102 examples of them found in the wild.

Do any of you have certain hours that you will only allow yourself to handle during?

Personally I handle my Ball Pythons most in the late afternoon to evening (feeding time for them is 8 or 9pm), and my yellow anaconda more during the day and less at night. A lot of it has to do with the sleep cycle the snake itself maintains. The BPs sleep all day for the most part, whereas the Yellow Conda is out and about during the day and sleeps when I do.

BTW Will0W, I am in MD

As a Northern VA resident, I can tell you that as long as you're not out by Cumberland or western MD, that you can get to a lot of shows fairly easily. Even if you are, VA/MD/PA tend to put on a fair number of reptile shows that should be good to get out and see.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-10-09, 12:17 PM

Can I see some good pictures of the different anaconda varieties? Green, the only one I’ve ever heard of was and still is my favorite animal, though I could hardly consider owning one. How much does a conda differ from a burm in girth? The picture of the patternless green burm looked very similar to that of the green anaconda.

So: height vs width/length à Win= width/length. Got it.
I’m seeing that a shed could be considered a great enclosure for any snake, aye? I’m picturing having a shed attached to a house with a heat vent in it and possibly a few heat lamps, but the shed could basically be an entirely new environment with plants and even dirt perhaps with rocks to climb on and sub-bathe in during the summer (I could even install a skylite for just that purpose). Then I could save a few feet in the front of the shed for a fridge in which to keep the feeders. Sounds like an amazing setup, at least, the way I picture it looks good. The snake could have almost the entire area to roam around in and with the proper insulation and heating, it would be fine outside the house during winter.

When I get my license, I will most definitely check out a few of these reptile shows, and drag my friend along with me who will most likely be dorming with me during and after college. If I get accepted, I will be going to Virginia Tech, any good shows near there?

Will0W783

11-10-09, 08:16 PM

Rham, if you're in MD, the Havre de Grace, MD show is a good one. There is also a great one in Richmond, VA if you're down towards the lower end of MD. BTW, I go to the Havre de Grace show every month because it's only an hour away from my house. If you want to go next time, perhaps I can meet you.

Good 'N Plenty

11-10-09, 10:03 PM

Can I see some good pictures of the different anaconda varieties? Green, the only one I’ve ever heard of was and still is my favorite animal, though I could hardly consider owning one.

All the following pictures are courtesy of Ben Rennick's site and are his personal snakes unless otherwise noted!

Greens:
Normal Green Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Normal [Wild Type] Green Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/normal_ga.html)
Hypo Orange Green Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Hypomelanistic Green Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/orange_hypo_ga.html)
Hypo Yellow Green Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Hypomelanistic Green Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/hypo_ga.html)
Anerythristic Green Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Anerythristic Green Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/anery_ga.html)
T+Albino Green Anaconda: Green anaconda image by woodage on Photobucket (http://media.photobucket.com/image/green%20anaconda/woodage/AlbinoGreenAnaconda.jpg)
Yellows:
Normal Yellow Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Normal [Wild Type] Yellow Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/normal_ya.html)
Axanthic Yellow Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Axanthic Yellow Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/axa_ya.html)
Hypo Yellow Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Hypomelanistic Yellow Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/hypo_ya.html)
Marble Yellow Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Marble Yellow Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/marble_ya.html)
Patternless Yellow Anaconda: Renick Reptiles - Collection - Patternless Yellow Anaconda (http://benrenick.com/patternless_ya.html)
Granite Yellow Anaconda *Not Ben's*: http://web.mac.com/anaconda_guy/iWeb/News/G.Yellow.Pics_files/Granite%20Yellow%20Anaconda%203.jpg

Beni Anaconda *Not Ben's*: Beni.Pics (http://web.mac.com/anaconda_guy/iWeb/News/Beni.Pics.html)
Here is some more info on Beni Anacondas from the legend himself, Kelly Haller: Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - Info and metrics on Eunectes beniensis.. (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1746191,1746191)
Dark-spotted Anaconda, aka Deschauensee Anaconda *Not Ben's*: Dark-spotted Anaconda, Eunectes deschauenseei (http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/view.php?tid=3&did=29155)

How much does a conda differ from a burm in girth? The picture of the patternless green burm looked very similar to that of the green anaconda.
Anacondas have such a strikingly unique head, that with some time just googling pictures, you'll see theres no mistaking them for anything else. The difference in girth is as individual as the snakes, but condas will typically be a bit bigger around. That's about as accurate as I can be, sorry! Hard to get stats on girth for the big 4.

I’m seeing that a shed could be considered a great enclosure for any snake, aye? I’m picturing having a shed attached to a house with a heat vent in it and possibly a few heat lamps, but the shed could basically be an entirely new environment with plants and even dirt perhaps with rocks to climb on and sub-bathe in during the summer (I could even install a skylite for just that purpose). Then I could save a few feet in the front of the shed for a fridge in which to keep the feeders. Sounds like an amazing setup, at least, the way I picture it looks good. The snake could have almost the entire area to roam around in and with the proper insulation and heating, it would be fine outside the house during winter.

'Shed' is a loose and ambiguous term. Make no mistake, any addition or small building that is used soley to house snakes should be as well made if not even more sealed up than a house. Within the snake building, humidity and heat need to be maintained, and you should always take cleaning into account.

When I get my license, I will most definitely check out a few of these reptile shows, and drag my friend along with me who will most likely be dorming with me during and after college. If I get accepted, I will be going to Virginia Tech, any good shows near there?

I'm up at Amherst College (not UMass), but live in northern VA. Wahoo Wah! UVA all the way! :)

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-11-09, 10:19 AM

Will0W, that’s a great offer, thank you very much, but my parents would most likely not let me go to Havre De Grace with a complete stranger, no offense or anything. Perhaps later when I’m in college we can talk about it again. I would certainly like to go to a reptile show and having someone there who knows what they are doing would be excellent.

GNP, those anacondas are beautiful, my favorite in particular was the orange hypo. Amazing coloration and pattern. What’s your favorite? Keeping an anaconda sounds weird to me though. Probably because I’ve always thought of them as wild animals and every story I heard about them is about an attack. Pythons on the other hand, I’ve known that people keep them whereas anacondas on the other hand, I’ve never heard of as a pet. Is there greater risk involved with owning one of them? You mentioned that a snake’s power is not in it’s length, but girth so it would make sense to me that they would be considerably more dangerous than any burm, retic or boa as well as that they are worse tempered than many snakes. Not to mention you said earlier that they always tend to use more coils when wrapping their prey so altogether, you have: big snake + more coils + more strength + bad temper = Big problems? For those of you who own condas, do you keep more people around you when you handle them because of the extra dangers?

GNP, are you saying that a standard shed would be a possibility as long as it was properly set up and kept at a correct temp and humidity?

Will0W783

11-11-09, 10:42 AM

People do keep 'condas as pets. There's one at a pet store near me that they have as a display animal, and she is really sweet-tempered. She's a yellow anaconda, so she's full grown at 10 feet and about as thick as a salad plate. They are very thick snakes. I think that with anacondas, as with any snake, it's all in how one familiarizes it with human contact from a young age. Emerald tree boas have a nasty reputation for being aggressive, intractable, display-only animals, but mine is more docile than a BP. She loves her throat tickled. She is 3 years old and has been handled her whole life, since she was a hatchling. There is a risk with any snake, and all snakes, because they are primitive, wild animals. They are not domesticated like dogs and cats, nor are they capable of ever being so. Their world is a simple one of instinct and reaction and conditioning. So I would think that an anaconda that was handled regularly since a young age and was generally used to people would be no more risk than a burm or retic.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-11-09, 12:21 PM

Well, that’s what I know most people would say. There is something that bugs me about that though. It is that people say stuff like that to people who are new to keeping snakes and those new people assume that if they do just that, they will NEVER have any problems. I don’t think that’s the right frame of mind to have, correct me if I’m wrong, but I would go into handling a large snake with much caution and awareness, not the mindset that as long as I’m doing everything right, nothing will go wrong.

Ex: I go to interact with my burm, thinking that I will do everything right and nothing will happen, that thought might lead me into a false sense of security so that I get comfortable and perhaps forget about the snake for a minute, then something startles it, doorbell, phone ringing, you know, any sudden noises. That has all been discussed and we all know that sudden noises can scare any constrictor into doing just what it was built to do. Do you see what I mean? I don’t mean any offense when I say that what you told me was what everyone else will say and that I think that could be misleading.

Again, I am new here, so correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just expressing my thoughts on what you said.

Good 'N Plenty

11-11-09, 12:26 PM

As Will0w said, people certainly keep anacondas as pets.

My favorite, without a doubt, is the T+ Albino Green. However, thats a $30k doller snake give or take, so that's not likely to be in my future ownership (I don't for for a fact how much Ben Rennick bought it for, but I've seen top end snakes go for $25k-$30k before and this albino conda is one of either 3 or 4 known examples in the world

There is greater risk in owning condas I believe, but it is based on size, weight, and strike style more than temperment. While baby snakes are certainly tempermental (this can be true for many species) with regular handling and some familiarization methods most snakes can become quite docile adults, though no snake is 100% tame.
Big snake + more coils + more strength + swiping strike = increased danger if triggered
But all danger is managable. Read the body language of the snake, always handle with at least 2 people, etc.

Will0w made an excellent point in making a difference between risk and danger. The risk of a BP and a dog biting you is pretty much the same in most cases of 2 well-raised animals, but sometimes something can trigger them and they will go off. The risk is not greater that they will strike, but the severity/risk is increased if they DO.

The issue of swiping is one that, as far as I've seen, is unique to condas, and is usually seen only in infants/young snakes. They can swipe, open mouthed at near 90 degree angles, seemingly just trying to rake you with their teeth when they are scared. This behavior has little warning but is fairly rare.
My only guess is that this is because the snake is threatened but realizes the person in front of them too large to eat, and therefor is looking to scare them away without having to latch onto the organism. This would account for why this behavior typically disappears with age, but who knows? I'm no Kelly Haller or Ben Rennick!

On another note - many snakes are deaf, and instead rely of feeling vibrations rather than directly hearing sound like we do. Doorbell wouldn't do the trick as there are no ground vibrations caused by it. A slamming door might though, but it'd be the sudden movement as much as anything else

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-11-09, 12:52 PM

So an anaconda strike is more dangerous because of the way it does it? How is a 90 degree strike worse? Sorry for all the questions, I’m just trying to learn as much as I can. Are Burms deaf? I do remember hearing that most snakes were deaf. Guess I forgot about that.

I’d have to agree with you on that albino, it is beautiful, though a 30k price tag is way too much. Our dogs were about $300+ for each, we have a standard poodle and a golden retriever. If I can spend less than that to buy a burm, I’m happy even if I do have to spend $500 feeding it each year.

Big question here. Last night I saw a video of a guy wrestling an anaconda. Now, I couldn’t tell if he was doing it for fun or what. He was actually in a pool, which made no sense to me because that would be a very dangerous place to be with a snake, let alone wrestling it. Why would someone do that? What is the point? Sure, maybe it looks like a lot of fun, but unless you are going to be wrestling anacondas as a profession, why risk it? I’ll try and find the link to the video later, but I can confirm that it is a real video.

Will0W783

11-11-09, 02:05 PM

Why would someone do that? What is the point?
In short, because they're a stupid moron. People do stupid s*it to "look cool" and to show off. A person is smart; people are dumb, panicky animals.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-11-09, 02:47 PM

He definity wasn't doing it to look cool. It was an older video and there was a narrator, maybe it was part of a documentary. I believe the mans name was Ross Allen. Like I said, when I canc get on a computer tonight, I'll give you guys the link. Right now I can't copy/paste links.

Will0W783

11-11-09, 03:12 PM

Ok. I am curious to see this video.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-11-09, 03:51 PM

I'll give it a go here on my iPod. I've never tried to grab a URL before. I can copy and paste but I've never tried a URL before....

Alright, it worked. Surprising...
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&#/watch?v=-4E2QFjfhV8&client=mv-google)

the URL is set for a mobile device and I'm not sure how to change that. You might have to mess with it.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-12-09, 12:07 PM

What do you think Will0W? I still can't see why even a professional herpetologist needs to do that...

Good 'N Plenty

11-12-09, 06:41 PM

Link wasnt working, least not on my computer. Very interested to see the video though

Will0W783

11-12-09, 08:37 PM

Yeah, link just opened up on Youtube's homepage. You have to make sure to copy and paste the entire link.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-12-09, 08:38 PM

YouTube - Ross Allen Reptile Institute (1960's) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnxddGi6JWw)

There ya go. Try that

Good 'N Plenty

11-12-09, 10:41 PM

1) Assuming Ross Allen is roughly a 6' male, it seems that that snake is not 20' long. I'd give it 16' or so, maybe up to 18', but I think 20' is a slightly exaggerated number to draw more attention.

2) Starting at 1:00 when the son takes over, it is very clear that he is actively spinning the anaconda around him.

3) Wrestling is a very loose term, but probably quite accurate. It's as staged and safe as modern day WWF wrestling. An accident might happen, but it's pretty rigged from the get go. The snake is clearly not that aggressive and the initial grab at the base of the head is the trigger that made it (her) angry.

There's nothing technically proficient about what they do, its not a good example of how anacondas attack and constrict, and some of the 'action' is questionable as to whether or not the snake wasnt more likely trying to get away from them than fight back (1:00 - 1:10). This is not a snake that is even trying to keep a grip on them until they roll themselves up in it.

Interesting video, but not for any reason of being insightful, helpful, informative, etc. Thanks a lot for the link nonetheless! Was worth seeing it

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-12-09, 11:07 PM

That's one of the videos I had seen in which they 'wrestled' the snake. I thought it would be fun to try it myself. I guess I just confused the whole issue and should have posted a link to begin with.

A few things you say about the kid wrapping himself up in it, sure, it looks like he is at a few points, what about the end though? Why does Ross need to come in and help if the kid is just spinning around in the coils and trying to make it look like they're tightening around him? In the last part where Ross does help out, doesn't it seem more likely that the snake was actually getting agressive and began to wrap him? Those coils on his feet looked tight enough to be legit.

You also didn't say anything about Ross's camera time. After the initial grab, maybe the snake tried to get away for a few seconds, but at a few points it looks like he is legitimately wrapped up by the snake. I'm not looking at it now, but he had two coils around his legs, one bigger one that went around his chest halfway then doubled back and also a few wraps around his upper arm I think.

If the anaconda is clearly not being agressive like you say, than what is stopping anyone else who sees that video from trying it themselves?

percey39

11-12-09, 11:31 PM

interesting but very stupid, considering there has been a green anaconda's squeeze measured at 90 psi which is plenty enough to crush human bones and organs.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-13-09, 09:11 AM

Aye, perhaps there has, but they don't have to use 90psi all the time. If the snake was not trying to harm them, but simply get away like GNP suggested, it wouldn't use all it's power. Even if it was becoming agressive, it doens't just automatically put all it's power into an attack, right? I still think it's plausible that the snake was actually wrapping the two men but like I said, not with all it's strength.

Will0W783

11-13-09, 09:53 AM

I thought it would be fun to try it myself.
Rham, are you out of your mind???? You should NOT, I repeat NOT EVER, try to "wrestle" a snake for fun. It isn't fun- it's dangerous to you and stressful for the animal. In that video, it looked as though the snake was simply trying to get away. I imagine they trained the snake and acclimated it to human handling quite thoroughly and yes, I think that video was staged and that the guys were wrapping themselves up in the snake and trying to provoke it. However, notice that there were several people there, who were quite likely well-trained in how to handle the situation should the snake turn actually aggressive.
For the average person to try to wrestle with an anaconda, burm, retic, or other giant snake would be asking for trouble. Not only would you, as a first-time snake owner, not have nearly enough experience to even begin to train a snake to handle that situation without becoming panicked and/or defensive and aggressive, you would not know how to predict the snake's movements or get out of a wrap should you get wrapped.
You would also be stressing your snake out and making it more likely to become defensive with you and bite you later on. Remember, snakes react based on the sum total of their experiences. If a snake has a bad experience with a person, and it's a long, traumatic experience, it could make the animal less likely to be as docile. Survival instincts are always greatest, so one bad experience can undo ten good ones.
Please, please don't waste your time looking at videos like that. Look at some videos of an anaconda catching and eating prey, and you'll see just how powerful they can be. They are not toys, they are not "cool wrestling partners", they are majestic, beautiful, but potentially lethal creatures that deserve total respect.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-13-09, 10:09 AM

:mad::mad:
Ok, now I'm getting ticked off. I said thats what I had thought. I made sure to phrase it using past tense verbs because it happened in the PAST. When I started the thread, that was my mindset. Please, can you all get it through your heads that I don't think that anymore. You're acting like since the beginning of this thread, I haven't learned anything. Wrong. I've said it NUMEROUS times now that wrestling a big constrictor was my original mindset, it's different now and I would be extremely greatful if you could all remember that.

Kim, I don't mean any offense to you, you have been very helpful, thank you for that. I'm just getting really frustrated that nobody can seem to understand what I've explained mnay times now.

citysnakes

11-13-09, 11:08 AM

Remember, snakes react based on the sum total of their experiences.

so youre all for nurture and reject nature? not all animals become docile based on experience. there will be snakes, even ones that are typically docile, that will remain aggressive or unhandleable no matter their interactions with their keeper.

generally burms are docile but what if, no matter how hard you try, the one you end up with doesnt conform to that generalization?

siz

11-13-09, 01:41 PM

Rham, the way your last post was worded, although in past tense, did sort of seem like you were still in that mindfame. Reading the entire thread, I can see how those thoughts have matured but that post gave off the impression of "I watched this video and thought it would be cool to wrestle a snake!" Do you see what I'm saying? I realize you are past that but you can come off differently than you intend to on the internet. Kim just cares for the wellbeing of your future snake, and not everybody 'gets it' like you seem to. There are some people who come on here asking for advice and it's like talking to a brick wall. Just thought I'd throw that in there because Kim is just tyring to help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will0W783 http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/images/grunged/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/giant-python-discussion/82689-new-have-some-questions-post553376.html#post553376)
Remember, snakes react based on the sum total of their experiences.

citysnakes:
so youre all for nurture and reject nature? not all animals become docile based on experience. there will be snakes, even ones that are typically docile, that will remain aggressive or unhandleable no matter their interactions with their keeper.I disagree Kim, well, to a point anyway...I think snakes can be conditioned to tolerate handling, but they are, at the end of the day, primitive animals and I doubt they have the ability for "nurture" to affect them long term. A "friendly" snake can strike at any time. I haven't really found, in my experience, that your statement is true. Maybe short term, but it's incomparable to say, a dog, which really does react on the sum of it's experience. If you were to hit a snake it wouldn't carry that with it the rest of it's life, lol. A silly comparison, I know, but for some reason it's the only thing coming to mind.
And obviously, there are exceptions to every rule. Like Julian said, you may end up getting that one burm that just doesn't tolerate you.

Good 'N Plenty

11-13-09, 10:40 PM

A few things you say about the kid wrapping himself up in it, sure, it looks like he is at a few points, what about the end though? Why does Ross need to come in and help if the kid is just spinning around in the coils and trying to make it look like they're tightening around him? In the last part where Ross does help out, doesn't it seem more likely that the snake was actually getting agressive and began to wrap him? Those coils on his feet looked tight enough to be legit.

Just because the kid allowed the snake to wrap him, doesn't mean he didn't end up legitmately stuck. But it does suggest that the snake would not have done so on its own.

You also didn't say anything about Ross's camera time. After the initial grab, maybe the snake tried to get away for a few seconds, but at a few points it looks like he is legitimately wrapped up by the snake.

The opening of the clip shows the snake casually swimming right up until the moment when Ross jumps it. My point was that this snake had no intention of starting or maintaing a fight.

If the anaconda is clearly not being agressive like you say, than what is stopping anyone else who sees that video from trying it themselves?

I don't doubt that the anaconda would have taken a bite if they had let go of it's head, and my point on it's aggression was to make note of the fact that this snake did not actively try and coil them or wrap them on it's own, prior to being jumped and spun around the person. Once it found itself wrapped around the person, why not grab on and try to restrain the creature that is thrashing you about, then make your getaway?

Would the snake have bit one of them? I don't doubt it. Does the video show me that these men were ever going to be killed or seriously injured beyond a bite? No, not really.
An encounter with that snake on land could probably have gone more like this:
YouTube - Man wrestles huge anaconda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3bqH5o6Sek)

What is to stop others from trying it themselves? Nothing. Then again, today's youth needs little encouragement to do stupid, reckless things that ARE plenty dangerous.
YouTube - jackass wannabes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Bm6hukMZM&feature=related)
YouTube - JACKASS HOME MADE!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO2vsKtHSaw)
YouTube - jackass wannabe 50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo_Fvo7jyBk)

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-14-09, 01:46 PM

Just because the kid allowed the snake to wrap him, doesn't mean he didn't end up legitmately stuck. But it does suggest that the snake would not have done so on its own.

The opening of the clip shows the snake casually swimming right up until the moment when Ross jumps it. My point was that this snake had no intention of starting or maintaing a fight.

Alright, the first part makes sense to me, but how can you read a snake like that? I'm not arguing a point here, just wondering how you can tell?

I don't doubt that the anaconda would have taken a bite if they had let go of it's head, and my point on it's aggression was to make note of the fact that this snake did not actively try and coil them or wrap them on it's own, prior to being jumped and spun around the person. Once it found itself wrapped around the person, why not grab on and try to restrain the creature that is thrashing you about, then make your getaway?

You still think the kid was spinning around, I can understand why, but with a video of that quality and the debris floating in the water, wouldn't it be hard to accurately determine that? The anaconda could easily have been wrapping him yet made it look like the kid was doing himself by spinning the kid's body instead of swimming around him in circles to get his coils around. Think about it, it would be easier to spin the kid around in the water a few times where there is hardly any resistance than swimming himself around the kid three times. Doesn't that make sense?

What is to stop others from trying it themselves? Nothing. Then again, today's youth needs little encouragement to do stupid, reckless things that ARE plenty dangerous.

Hahaha... I've lit living trees on fire out of boredom by pouring flamable liquids on them and lighting them, then there was also the time I created a ten foot mushroom could of black smoke and flames in my backyard after lighting a bunch of engine lubricant. :yes: ....-sigh- Good memories... :)

percey39

11-14-09, 06:14 PM

i dunno about you but i would never wanna be in a position where this could happen with my scrub or any other snake for that matter. Just because a snake can cause a lot of pressure when it wraps and remember it doesnt take them much to swith into a feeding frenzy ( if they are hungry and strike watch out ) it makes this whole idea incredibly stupid

Will0W783

11-14-09, 08:55 PM

Ok, ok. Rham, please stop getting ticked off so easily. I feel very strongly about responsible animal ownership and do not want anything bad to happen to anyone or their pets. I can see now, re-reading your post, how it could have been meant as past tense, but you have to admit if you look at it objectively you can see why I misunderstood and thought you were still of that mindset. I'm just trying to make sure you don't do anything foolish; I'm not trying to upset you. Just trying to keep you safe and give you good advice.

GNP and Siz, yes, I guess I did generalize a bit too much with that comment- there are snakes that will never be docile no matter what, and there are some that are just docile to begin with. But I still think that the vast majority can be conditioned- classical and basic operant conditioning only requires the brainstem and cerebellum, both of which snakes have just as we do. It's the higher cortex areas that snakes don't have very much of. So (most) snakes can be conditioned that being picked up doesn't mean danger, just as they can be conditioned that when the door of their cage opens it means food if you only open the cage to feed them. But, yes, there are some that are just aggressive no matter what. But I still feel that one bad experience with a person can do far more damage to a snake's temperament than several good experiences can do good to it. It's just something I feel, based on what I know about brain structure and learning mechanisms in animals and humans. I mean, they have to be able to learn to a degree to survive in nature! But they will never be able to learn nearly as much as mammals, and so will never be really tame.
I still don't really trust any of my snakes. I can't- they are wild animals and very primitive and instinctual. But they are mostly predictable- even when they might seem to strike for no reason, in hindsight there was always something I missed that could most likely have been avoided, like the dog getting into the room and startling the snake or my moving my other hand too much.

mokeyloke

11-15-09, 12:41 AM

Posts like these reinforce the need for making licenses mandatory for people who want to keep giant(anacondas, burms, retics & rock pythons) snakes.

mokeyloke

11-15-09, 12:48 AM

Good 'N Plenty

11-15-09, 01:03 AM

Posts like these reinforce that licenses should be required for people who want to own giant snakes(burms, retics, anacondas & rock pythons). Not just a pay your money and get your license type either. One with a written test and an educational course requiremnet.

Could not agree more. As long as proper husbandry, handling, and housing requirements are known and met, any snake has the potential to remain legally ownable.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-15-09, 07:22 PM

Will0W783

11-16-09, 08:44 AM

Nah, it's cool. I'm pretty easy to get along with. I just get very very upset when I sense people might be thinking things that will get them hurt or killed and hurt their snakes. Our hobby is in enough danger right now what with all the uproar in Florida. We need keepers to be mature and responsible, more so now than ever. I would honestly be very careful how you phrase things on this forum. There are a lot of people that have been on here for years and are much easier to permanently tick off than I am.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-16-09, 10:19 AM

Glad we’re good now. I’m easy to get along with as well and for the most part, really laid back about everything. I guarantee I have an apathy problem or something. :)

I still haven’t heard any stories from anyone. I’m interested in hearing about other people’s personal experiences with constrictors. I know a guy from back where I lived in CO who was moving out and in the process of packing, dropped a box. His albino burm wrapped around his torso twice and his neck once. He was fine when he got a friend to help pull it off. Anyone ever had a full body wrap?

Good 'N Plenty

11-16-09, 12:02 PM

Side note, are these stories intended as learning experiences or just for shock value and giggles?

If you have questions about getting out of being wrapped/struck there are plenty of people who can answer here.
If you have questions about what could make a snake strie/wrap there are plenty of people who can answer here.

If you want to hear every possible way/time that someone has been wrapped, then the interest is most likely in hearing stories and keeping the thread going. Few people here will have wrap stories and many will have bite stories stemming mostly from 1 of 2 or 3 triggers:

Most likely:
1) Snake had just eaten or was in shed and was on edge and a sudden movement towards it threatened it
2) Hands smelled like food

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-16-09, 12:09 PM

Basically just asking out of curiosity. Otherwise, it would be good for learning.

Will0W783

11-16-09, 02:27 PM

Well I have a wrap story and a bite/strike story. I have a young adult male Macklot's python (Liasis macklotti). He's a gorgeous and impressive animal, I'd say around 5 feet and about as thick as the tube from a roll of paper towels. He's not a very aggressive animal, but he is an opportunistic biter. The day after I got him my fiance brought him out and brought him downstairs on his arm. I warned him that I didn't know the snake's temperament yet and I wouldn't hold him without gloves. Well, John was going on about how calm Cipher (the snake) was and how neat he was and then he said "Oh, he's getting really tight- did he do that to you yesterday?" I said no he hadn't but I'd had gloves on. John tried to loosen his coils up a bit and Cipher wrapped his head around John's wrist and slowly engulfed three of his fingers and bit down, while wrapping his hand/wrist. John said "Ow, ok that is starting to hurt, oh S**t he's biting me!" and grabbed Cipher behind the jaws to pry him off. Once Cipher was off he started striking wildly at everything, including his own tail and it took us a good four or five minutes to get him back into his cage, during which time John got two more bites (still didn't put gloves on).
Cipher is mostly calm with me, but the one time I held him with a t-shirt and the gauntlet gloves on, so I had a strip of skin exposed at my elbow. He was calmly slithering around my arms, and suddenly bumped his face on the inside of my elbow. He pulled back, looked up at my face, tensed and quickly struck the inside of my elbow. It was a strike/release, but I grabbed his neck and put him back in the cage. Again, he went nuts, striking repeatedly at me and bit his own rear end. Another few minutes to get him into the cage and off of me...lol.
I've also had a number of feeding responses from my blood pythons and once from my BP when I had been playing with a guinea pig and forgot to wash my hands. The BP bite was the worst, because he's big and clamped down HARD. The others were mostly annoying, but not really painful. Cipher's bite didn't really hurt at all, it just startled me.

Will0W783

11-16-09, 02:28 PM

Here's Cipher and the bite he gave me. You can see almost a perfect mouth outline on my arm.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-16-09, 07:32 PM

Heh, any idea why Cipher did that at all? Perhaps it was just not used to being handled by your fiance. You say Cypher actually tried to eat his fingers? Thats kinda amusing actually. :)
I can't see any reason why the other would bite your elbow, just startled I guess.

Will0W783

11-17-09, 10:00 AM

I think Cipher has not been handled a lot in his earlier days, and doesn't realize that warm skin is not food. He must have been hungry when my fiance held him and once he bit it activated the feeding response. As for my elbow, Cipher probably was agitated, and again, once he bit he got into feeding mode. I only handle him with a sweatshirt and gauntlet gloves on now. It is my hope that he will tame down with time, but he may never be a free-handleable snake. He is a handsome devil though, isn't he?
Remember, Cipher is only about 5 feet long and about 4 inches in diameter, and he can do quite a bit of damage if he wants to. God forbid he got near my face, I'd be really jacked up.

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-19-09, 12:08 PM

Ahh, I see. sweatshirt and gloves sounds like a good idea.
I really like the pattern, it looks like the camoflage they use over in Iraq almost.

I saw a picture of a snake in the process of biting a man's face, looks like it hurts a lot.

BP_okay

11-19-09, 12:19 PM

Okay, so after 30 minutes of reading this thread, I am very uneasy about this whole situation...please don't take anything I say personally. I am just as easygoing as Willow.

Please don't get this snake as your first pet snake. I am probably about the size of your girl/fiance', and I would never want that size snake in my house. I really think burms are amazing and beatiful, but I seriously don't think it should be a first snake. I have a sand boa and corn. When my corn is hungry, he follows me around the room and flicks his tounge at me like i am a giant mouse. If a corn has that behavior, can you imagine that situation with a 15ft. burm. I believe it was Kim, who suggested a RTB, which a perfect snake for someone wanting something larger, and have great temperaments. I would go w/ a female, since she'll be larger for you. Their husbandry is relatively easy, and you won't have to spend nearly as much on setup/food. I had alot to learn when I got started in this hobby, and my snakes were easy when I got started the folks on this forum were so so helpful. I would follow their advice - they seriously know what they are talking about. Especially Aaron S, although I am sure you are not too fond of him. He really knows what's going on and has been very helpful to me in the past.
I know it sounds exciting to have a Burm, but it's really better to work your way up.

I know you will do what you want in the end, but the only way you will be able to get rid of a gigantic burm is a reptile rescue, or a kind, experienced person willing to take on the time and expense required to keep one.

Good Luck
Traci

Rham_Es-Hestos

11-19-09, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the advice Traci. I have said it a few times here, I'm not as dead-set on buying a burm anymore as I was. I would still really like one, but I see your point in saying that I should start with something smaller. In all honesty, I am considering what you all have said and there is definitly a possibillity of me buying something smaller first. I do plan to stick around here for a while to ask questions and get advice. You all have been the most helpful so far, thanks for that.

I'm not really mad at Aaron, it is annoying though when you go to ask some questions and get slammed for them. I'm not going to hold a grudge on him or anything, I'm sure he can provide me with useful information in the future if he wants. I'm willing to respect others as long as they respect me.

By the way, I found on sunday that my girlfriend is actually 4'11". I had to actually ask her how tall she was after we went out shopping and she bought three pairs of size 0,0 jeans. (That prospect of 0,0 really confuses me. In my opinion, anything that is size 0, should not exist. Am I right?) Anyway, I'm horrible at guessing hights as you may be able to tell now. She is indeed a LOT shorter than me, I knew that, but never put togther the fact that if I am 6'2", and I said she was 5'5", that would mean there was only a 9" difference. I'm definitly more than 9" taller than her. :D

--Rham