Looking for 3rd snake!

[BP_okay]

Okay ya'll. Big news - I can finally get a third snake(own 1 corn,1 sand boa). Whoopee! I am getting a divorce, so I am trading one snake for another(actually that's almost a slam on snakes :)). Okay so now to the important stuff:)

I really want a Hogg Island Boa b/c of 4 characteristics:
1)size - girthy enough but not over 4-5 ft(male)
2)docile
3)fairly simple husbandry
4)Will constrict when handling, like around my arm,etc.

Since I only have room for one more snake, I want this to be the right choice. I recently read an article on Angolan Pythons, and they seemed to fit in that category as well, but the only site I could find with some available was selling them for $2000. Is that right?

Does anyone have any other suggestions that would fit my criteria that I might be overlooking.

Thanks in Advance,
Traci

[Martin Hunter]

If you're not against something just slightly larger, how about a male Colombian Boa? I've got one at at 5 years old and 6 feet long (he's full grown) he's as sweet as they come. They're dead easy to feed and take care of and generally have a great temperament which is common among most boas from what I've read.

Here's a picture of my boa, Dave with my best friend
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2518/3716123360_0cc6b6e171.jpg

[Chu'Wuti]

Ahh, I see. Traci, this answered my questions. Another snake you might consider, if you're wanting to stay smaller in length, is the ball python. Though I know some people consider its husbandry less simple (it needs higher humidity than your corn or sand boa), it really isn't that difficult once you get the right set-up. BP fits all your other criteria, and there are some absolutely wonderful morphs. A couple of people in our herp society have been selling some morphs for great prices lately.

Good luck!

[BP_okay]

Martin, I know you aren't the Martin, as the photo indicates: I really love your boa...he is beautiful and looks like a sweetie. I really would add him to my collection in a minute, but I moved in my parents, b/c of the divorce(had nowhere to go), and my parents are being sweet to let me have the 3rd guy - my dad is really freaked out by snakes, so he said nothing larger than 4-5 feet. He just won't budge on that, and I can't betray his trust.

He really is an excellent suggestion though. I think I will get one when I get my own place, as well as a suriname boa - one of my dream snakes.

[BP_okay]

Hey Sandy,

The ball is really a great option, but the only prob with the humidity is that I leave them for about 5-6 days every 4 months or so for family vacation, so I don't know how I could keep the humidity up while away from the house. As you stated, the humidity is not the problem with my other boys, so they are easy to leave for that time period. If you have suggestions for keeping the humidity up while away, please let me know.

I just love Womas, b/c it an dry climate python, but unfortunately they are too large, and I am unaware of a dwarf version :(

Btw, I wanted you to see a few pics of my corn, he is just growing beautifully...since you were helpful in getting him to calm down, I thought you would like to see....he's cool as a cucumber now.

Thanks,
Traci

[Will0W783]

Womas are great- they really don't get that large, and they aren't terribly heavy bodied. I have a little woma hatchling and he's just incredible. As for humidity you could buy an automatic mister, like HabbaMist and set it to mist once or twice a day for 15-20 seconds. They run around $40-50 and would be fine for keeping a BP's humidity up while you're gone. BTW, what size of snake do you consider "too large"? For example, I wouldn't consider womas a large snake, but I would consider Columbian boas large, as they hit 10 feet. A woma can live comfortably in a 50-gallon breeder tank or a large sweaterbox in a rack and they never need to be misted, but they do cost considerably more than BPs or boas. Also, most of the time, you'd be getting a younger snake of whichever breed you're looking into, so you won't need a huge enclosure for a year or two.

[BP_okay]

Willow,

Personally, a Woma isn't too large for me, just my Dad. I am living in with parents now, so he said nothing over 4-5ft. That's large for him, but not too large for me(when I get my own place someday) is over 10 feet. I would love to see your little woma - they are soooo adorable - especially the little babies. Arent' they are around $500 -$700 nowadays?

After reading that article in Reptiles about the Angolan, I fell in love! But, how mean to excite us herpers, and not give us prices. My jaw hit the floor, but after researching further, as of 2008, I heard there were only about 700 or so in the U.S. Not so sure about the correctness of that stat.

Thanks for tip on the automatic mister! Now a ball is definitely a consideration. After dealing with getting used to my sand boa only eating once a month and going off mice for 2 months every once in a while, I think they proclivities for fasting would probably be okay for me.

Traci

[citysnakes]

if one cannot even leave for a few days because of the humidity level within their ball python's enclosure then one has lots to learn about humidity...hehe.

a few days, even a week without misting shouldnt be a problem even with snakes that require high humidity. if you go with a ball, its not difficult at all to provide the heat and humidity that they need even if you do have to leave for a while here and there.

how bout looking into dumerils boas? their colour and pattern are gorgeous, very easy husbandry requirements and their temperament and feeding responses are great.

[Chu'Wuti]

Julian, you beat me to it! I was going to tell Traci the same thing about humidity--I don't have to mist daily. I left my BP under my son's care for over 3 weeks--son didn't do anything except give him fresh water & a rat every week, and he was fine.

[Will0W783]

Another one to consider is a blood (or short-tailed) python. They stay around 5 feet or so, the same as BPs, but get fatter and have gorgeous, marbled colors. They are also pretty affordable- in the $75-150 range. I've seen a few angolans at shows, and I've never seen them for under a grand, but they might be cheaper in different parts of the US. I live in PA. They are neat snakes, but IMO they look too much like a BP to be paying that much money for them.

[BP_okay]

Kimberly, am I correct in assuming 7 ft is usually the max for a woma?

I agree w/ the problem of the Angolans being so expensive, but the dry conditions they require just really attracted me. But now that I don't have to worry about humidity, per Sandy, citysnakes, and you, I think all of those guys are a good option. I actually researched blood pythons last night, as well as the Dumerils Boa - both are beautiful, but of the two - which has the sweeter disposition. Also, one thing that scared me about the dumerils boa is the size. Some sites said they could easily reach 6-7 ft. I would love a snake that size, but Dad, not so much :)

Citysnakes, btw, I do have to alot to learn about humidity! Only having a sand boa and a corn, I have never really had a need to know. Now that I am, and you guys are so helpful, a whole new world of snake options are available. :) I am glad I have to save up for the new guy/setup, b/c I'll need the time to decide now!

[Will0W783]

Dumeril's can get pretty large. I've seen one that had to be at least 8 feet and it was thick...probably a 30lb+ snake. But 6 feet is much more typical for them. A blood will be around 5-6 feet and also very thick, and very beautiful. But bloods do tend to be more aggressive. Like anything they calm with regular handling, but aren't a snake to let your guard down around from what I've seen of them. Womas are around 6-8 feet, but I think typically the males are around 6-6.5 and females are around 7-7.5. Mine are babies, but man are they neat, cute, little guys. I absolutely love them and their dry conditions make caring for them a breeze. Plus they are great little eaters. Another thing you might consider if you like colubrids more is a kingsnake or milksnake. Milks stay around 4-5 feet and can be quite beautiful. I have a normal pueblan female and a male amelanistic. The male is coral, orange and yellow- just awesome colors. They also do well in drier climates. Kings are much the same way, but are duller in color. Bullsnakes are also an option. They get 6 feet but are thin and from what I've read quite intelligent.

[citysnakes]

similarily to how it is said that balls can grow to be six feet in length, i dont doubt that dumerils can grow to seven feet but 4-5 feet is more of an accurate average size for adults.

my four year old male and female dumerils are around 5 and 4 feet in length each and both weigh around 6 and 7 pounds. maybe a 6 foot blood python can wiegh in at 30 pounds but i doubt even an 8 foot dumerils can weigh that much.

comparing dumerils to bloods besides the fact that dumerils are generally more tame than bloods their humidity requirements are also much less demanding than bloods. stick a dumeril in a 4x2x2, warm and dry enclosure and you're good to go.

it may seems like it but im not trying to push dumerils boas on ya or anything...;)

hope this helps!

[Will0W783]

Hehe...why shouldn't you, Julian? Dumeril's are gorgeous snakes. I absolutely adore my fiance's Dumeril's. It's about 3.5 feet long and 2 years old. Magellan (that's its name) has the coolest face pattern- he looks so sinister but is a real sweetie, unless he thinks you're food..lol.

[BP_okay]

Okay guys, now it seems that I am torn between the dumerils, the hogg island, and the woma. Actually a question that might be answerable and help out is rate of growth for these guys. I will most likely be on my own in about 3 years. This means I can get a larger snake, but it can't grow to max length in 3 years. Any thoughts for these 3 kinds of snakes regarding rates of growth.

Julian, yep, you aren't at all biased towards dumerils:) I looked at your site and pinky and the brain are gorgeous. That's all the convincing you had to do :)

Kimberly, I have always been attracted to pueblans, but I since I have a colubrid, who I love and adore, I just want a snake with a little more oomph and a more outgoing nature. After looking up more info on the bloods, I see the Sumatrans are more agreeable than the Malaysians.

Kimberly, how many snakes do you own hon? How do you manage to keep track of everything with their care and pursue a Ph.D. You are an amazing woman. Do you breed womas or know a good breeder?

I feel like my head is spinning from all the excitement and choices. I can't wait to have as many snakes as I want some day. After I said, 2 and no more, I wanted a 3rd. I don't even have my 3rd yet, and am planning on about 10 more I would like to have. Oh my stars, I think i have an addiction! Oh yeah, and now that I am single, the trait I look for first is being a herp addict, and then all that other stuff, like honesty,kindness,blah,blah,etc ;-)

[Will0W783]

Lol. Snakes are addicting. Plain and simple, they are like potato chips- you can't have just one. I was exactly like you when I started out. I got a BP and had him for a year thinking he'd be my one and only snake, but when my fiance decided he wanted a snake of his own, I fell in love with a gorgeous Pueblan milk and got my second. Then he wanted another, and I wanted another, and so on. Once we had 10 snakes in the house, we decided we would like to think about setting up for breeding them. We wont' be breeding for probably another 2-3 years, as I want to get more experience with the animals I've gotten over the last year before I think of putting anyone through the stress of cycling and breeding. I am very lucky my fiance likes snakes as well, and puts up with me bringing new ones home all the time, although I have decided I really can't get any more for at least a year or two. I'm really not all too sure on the growth rate of womas and Hogg island boas or Dumeril's for that matter as we've only had our Dumerils for about 6 months, and he's grown maybe 6 inches in that time. He is about 4 feet long and 3 inches thick. My womas I've only had for a month, and they are just 4 months old, but I dont' think they are particularly fast growers. I think with any snake it will double in size the first year, then begin to slow down. Most boids (pythons and boas) are full-grown in 3-4 years. But at any rate, you would probably be safe with any of those choices of snakes, as long as you get a baby. Babies of any kind of snake, save for ball pythons, do tend to be nippier though, as it is a built-in defense mechanism to strike at stuff to protect oneself. As they grow they gain confidence and calm down. That being said, my woma babies are fine- I use a little hook to get them out so they dont' get defensive, but once they are out they are sweet, inquisitive little things. The Dumeril's was already at least a yearling when we got him and he is very calm. Although he is a bit food-aggressive- so I use a hook for him too. He wants to eat all the time..lol.

[BP_okay]

Potato chips..yep...I would agree. When you have 2 addicts in the house it does make it worse huh? Well, if you ever start breeding womas, I might be a customer, b/c I think at some point in my future, I plan on breeding those guys. They are sooo striking.

It really is a toss up isn't it. Babies vs. Yearlings. I appreciate the advice on what you do know about the growth rates. My corn was 1 and my boa was 4 yrs when I got them, so I have never experienced a juvenile. I never would have dreamed of using a hook with a baby, but a great tip that makes perfect sense nonetheless.I think 6 months would probably be about right for any of those kinds of snakes regarding growth, but I suppose the nippiness will be worth it in the end, b/c is kinda neat to be with your animal it's whole life :) Now just to decide!

[Martin Hunter]

I've got a pair of Pastel Colombians that just had their 3-month birthdays and they're not nippy at all. In fact, they've never even gotten upset at me once. So it's not a hard and fast rule that babies are nippy; you can be lucky.

[Will0W783]

That's very true Martin. Colombian boas are known for their generally docile nature though, as are ball pythons. My baby balls do not bite at me; they just want to hide their heads. My yearling jungle/jag carpet is quite docile, but he was worked with a lot before I got him and I do hold him often still. My baby womas are pretty good- they will defend their cage, but once I hook them and pick them out they are fine. Once you decide on your species of choice, it might not be a bad idea to go to the breeder if possible and select an animal so you can see them all and interact with them. A reptile show would be an ideal situation as you will be able to see and handle many different species from different breeders.

[BP_okay]

I've got a pair of Pastel Colombians that just had their 3-month birthdays and they're not nippy at all. In fact, they've never even gotten upset at me once. So it's not a hard and fast rule that babies are nippy; you can be lucky.

That's good to know...I guess all of them have their own little personalities. You sure did get lucky. Congrats on the babies :-)


Willow, it's funny you mention that, b/c I have planned a trip to the Las Vegas Reptile show during December. It's going to be my B-day celebration. Like you said, it will be a great way to size up the snakes and the breeders. I AM SOOO excited about this show...it's supposed to be huge!

[Will0W783]

Cool! Big shows are always a blast. You'll have so much fun; just be careful- it's easy to say you're only going to get one snake and leave with 3 or 4. Prices are so low and there are so many beautiful animals.

[BP_okay]

Well, I will have my Dad to answer to if that happens...not something that would fun to explain to him. But you are right, if I had my own place, I would definitely be in trouble after a visit to a reptile show. I have trouble at the petstore, when I grab substrate, and I would never buy a snake from there. I have never been to a show b4...would it be unwise to purchase a specific snake from the breeder at the show and have them ship it to you after you get home?

[Good 'N Plenty]

Some sellers will agree to that, I've also run in to some who havn't, or who will for a bit extra (for time/care/food) between the show and the agreed shipping date.
On the other hand, I've also had the good fortune to have a seller who held onto a snake for me for 3 weeks for no extra charge (had to put 1/2 cost down as "just in case" deposit) until I returned from vacation (left day after show) and was able to ensure the animal received proper care.

Honestly, if you strike up a friendly conversation with the seller and chat them up for a while (time permitting) you will find that most people in the business are genuinely interested in the well-being of the animals they sell, and if the best way to ensure it's safety is to ship it to you later, it's usually not a problem.

[BP_okay]

Thx alot for the info. I am so new to this herp show thing. I think I will go into full on mania when surrounded by so many reptiles.
Okay, so if the seller does agree to holding onto the animal...do you think I am taking a risk, by giving them $ and not walking out w/ the snake. I guess it's like buying online, so I suppose 90% of them are on the up and up. Any thoughts...? Also, if I do buy the snake at the show...how do I get it home. I have to fly back from Vegas to Dallas. I supposed like you did..during your vacation and all.

[Chu'Wuti]

BP_okay, as you're planning on attending the herp show, check out the list of vendors online for the type of snake(s) you're thinking about buying. Write down the vendors who have those snakes, then check them out on the Board of Inquiry before you go to the show. That way you'll know who has a good reputation and who has a bad one--who's a safe seller & who isn't!

I was lucky on my last purchase that the herp show was near my house. I could easily check out the sellers before I bought anything even though I didn't check the vendor list before the show. Next time, though, I'll check ahead of time and have the "good" list in my pocket to remind me!

[Will0W783]

Excellent advice Sandy! I made the mistake once of buying from a vendor at a show that I was not previously aware of- it didn't end well for me. It was a Spilotes, and he died the very next day and it took me a month to get my money back. Fortunately I had paid with Paypal at the show so I had a bit more clout to work with. Now I have a select number of vendors I will deal with- I will check out new guys, but I will only buy from them if the animal is something I've never seen elsewhere or an incredible deal and passes my rigorous examination. If someone has a non-venomous snake in a container, and won't let you take it out to examine it and see its temperament, it's best not to deal with them IMHO.
BP_OKay- here is my basic checklist of things to thoroughly examine on any animal before purchase. Not a foolproof thing, as snakes can hide illness well, but it lowers risk:

1. check over the animal's skin to look for signs of retained shed. If you see any, check the extent. A tiny little piece is not the end-all, but several chunks or large pieces of retained shed mean the animal was not being kept in ideal conditions and you're best to avoid it.

2. Look at the eyes. Unless the animal is in shed (easy to tell) they should be bright and clear.

3. Look at the nostrils and listen to the breathing. The nostrils should be clear and the breathing quiet. I have a few snakes that have a very slight whistle when excited, but a sick snake will wheeze, whistle loudly, pop, click, and/or open its mouth when breathing. If you see any of those, don't buy it.

4. Look at the vent (cloaca). It should be closed all the way, unless the animal is peeing/pooping/musking on you..lol. It should be clear and show no signs of discharge. This is something I didn't check on the Spilotes that died on me- I ALWAYS check it now, carefully.

5. Feel along the sides of the animal's back half of the body. It should be firm and smooth. Obviously swelling or lumps can indicate constipation/impaction. If the animal is gravid the seller will know and tell you, but that's probably unlikely.

6. Let the animal glide around in your hands and note its movements. It should be able to move smoothly and not show signs of uncoordination. The exception being some color morphs of BPs and carpets which often have neurological problems- spider and bumblebee BPs, and jaguar carpets.

* A few other things to note- go on Youtube and familiarize yourself with what a respiratory infection and IBD look like in snakes. There are some very good videos on there. I went to a show once and saw a baby red-tail that looked very much to have IBD. It was stargazing and twisting itself all around, and it was in a case with a bunch of other babies. I did not buy anything from that seller, and have never bought anything from them since, and I also did not buy anything from any sellers immediately around that one. Super cautious, but IBD and the possibility of it is not something to be messed with! Also check to see how clean the containers the animals are in are. If an animal has defecated or urinated at the show, the seller might not see it right away and it might be in with the animal, but a lot of dirty, grimy containers are not excusable.

Hopefully this helps a bit, and best of luck with your next snake purchase. Reptile shows are sooo much fun and very informative! :)

[Good 'N Plenty]

Great advice from both Chu and Willow, and the only other thing I would add is to watch how the dealer handles their own snakes.

It might be adding a level of sentimentality to the hobby that some people feel is unecessary, and perhaps this is just my personal issue, but I have always been offput by those who treat a snake as anything less than a living, sentient, feeling creature. Can it express complex emotions or even love you? No, it can't, even if we want to see certain actions as affectionate or loving. But does this mean the animal needs to be treated in a rough manner or handled a bit roughly? No, certainly not.
Like I said, I might be reading too much into it, but over a decade+ of visiting shows I have found that the sellers who treat the animals the best at the show, tend to treat them the best away from the show, because anyone can put up clean cages for a day, but away from the show, who knows, and I feel that how a seller personaly treats the animal is as indicative of treatment as housing/display at the show (though of course, all Willow and Chu's points still stand! This is just in addition to them)

*All opinions are strictly my own and it is not my intent to offend regarding my opinions how how treatment of animals at a show may/may not relate to treatment of the animals away from the show*

[Will0W783]

I agree wholeheartedly Good 'N Plenty. They are living creatures capable of feeling fear, pain, discomfort, hunger, and on the flip side comfort and ease. I can't stand sellers who simply treat them as merchandise. The absolute best snakes I have in my collection are those whose previous owners loved them as well and took a personal interest in them. Anyone who roughly handles a snake or shows disregard as to their comfort is a no-no to me!

[Michael Roth]

4. Look at the vent (cloaca). It should be closed all the way, unless the animal is peeing/pooping/musking on you..lol. It should be clear and show no signs of discharge.




lol, be wary doing that with kingsnakes and milksnakes...

[Will0W783]

Lol- yeah they could musk you. But you have to look at it to make sure it's clean.

[BP_okay]

Oh my goodness,

Thanks to all of you for all the good info! Ya'll are amazing! I do have 2 questions and some comments!

Kimberly, I just wanted to know if the neuro probs of the the morphs of BP's affect it's health in any way, or if it is just something that you have to deal with in handling them.

Sandy, where is this board of inquiry? I am going to start doing my research now, as I am a nerd. I just love that kind of stuff.

Good N' Plenty - I totally agree w/ you regarding the kindness factor of how breeders handle their snake. I just thought the girl I bought my Sand Boa from was really rough with him and treated like a commodity. I loved everything about him, but I also bought him because I just plain sorry for such an awesome snake in a crummy environment. He's doing great now, thankfully! I did get her to order my corn, b/c I lived in an apartment at the time, and I was being sneaky w/ the snakes, but rest assured, I was at that store when he arrived, and he's been the best snake ever.

That is all great advice, and now I feel even more prepared.

Have a great weekend everyone!
Traci

[Will0W783]

As far as I know, the neuro problems don't affect the health. There are some pretty extreme wobblers out there and even they can eat and function normally. The more strongly outcrossed an animal is, the less wobble they seem to have. For example, a pure line spider may be more likely to have a more severe case of wobble than a spider whose lineage includes crossing from several different original genetic lines. My spider only has a mild case and you don't see it at all unless you pick him up. In the cage he moves normally- he just has some tremor when he lifts his head and when I hold him he will lift his head way up and then tip it over and upside down. They can still eat and breed and function just fine- they just look rather awkward at times.

[BP_okay]

ahhh... I see...so it's just a handling thing. When you say "outcrossed", are you saying they are a less pure form of that particular morph? I bet it does look different when your guy does the head thing. It's a good thing you know alot about snakes...if that had happened to me, I would have been worried and freaked out for the little guy! Thanks for the heads up on the morphs! So if you handle one at show for a few minutes, would you say I'd get a pretty good idea of what that exact snakes neuro issues are?

[Chu'Wuti]

The Board of Inquiry is located at Board of Inquiry® - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13)

It is extremely useful.

Outcrossing doesn't necessarily mean that the morph is less pure. It may be pure spider but the ancestry is from several different breeders' lines of spider. If the ancestry is all from one breeder's spider (or other morph) line, then the morph may become "inbred," and previously unseen recessive defects begin to be expressed. By outcrossing to other lines, the recessive genes may be suppressed and thus not expressed (not seen). There are a few morphs that tend to display neurological problems more than other morphs due to the breeding needed to get those morphs; spider is one of them.

The New England Reptile Distributors has an excellent series of articles describing BP genetics here: New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more! (http://www.newenglandreptile.com/care.html)

Have fun educating yourself!

[BP_okay]

Thanks Sandy...I really appreciate all the resources and info. Thanks for the great explanation regarding the outcrossing. I really can't wait to learn about all this stuff, as I want to be a breeder someday. It seems there are endless things to learn in the herp world ;-)