View Full Version : Need advice- new snake has RI
Will0W783
09-14-09, 08:13 PM
Ok, I just bought this gorgeous, docile male GTP on Thursday and he seemed fine when he arrived. However, he seemed a bit "hissy" on Saturday and yesterday he bubbled a bit when I picked him up. Today he refused food, bubbled when hissing again and I got him to open his mouth with a q-tip and he has thick mucus in there. I had him in quarantine at 82 ambient with the upper cage being at around 87-89 with humidity 70%. My question is, it's only been 3 days (I noticed definite problem yesterday, Sunday)- has too much time elapsed to contact the seller and ask him if he could help me out with vet bills?
Chu'Wuti
09-15-09, 08:37 PM
Geez, IMHO, NO! I'd contact him right away. It's pretty doubtful that the GTP suddenly developed this RI just after shipping--sounds to me as if his conditions weren't right BEFORE he was shipped to you.
Good luck!
Aaron_S
09-16-09, 03:02 AM
It would also explain his docile nature, if he is sick. Which sounds like he is. You should be talking to the person who sold him to you and letting him know of the situation. You two can work it out from there hopefully.
Will0W783
09-16-09, 07:44 AM
I did talk to the seller yesterday. He said he will cover the first $50 of the vet bill, which is reasonable to me, since the snake was very cheap to begin with. The guy seems honest and helpful; I don't think he knew the snake might be getting sick, and I figure maybe he caught a chill while in transit? Anyway, I have some left over amikacin from my carpet python who had an RI a few months ago. I weighed the GTP and calculated the proper dosage and gave him the first shot last night. I am also soaking him nightly in warm (90-93 degree) water for 15 minutes, and have a UVB/full spectrum bulb I am putting on him. I upped his temps a bit to the upper 80s so it is sitting about 84-88 gradient in the cage and 70% humidity. My herp vet is on vacation until Monday, but I will call him first thing that morning and see if I can set up an appointment to get the male, Archimedes, looked at. I'm still happy with the snake and the seller was nothing but helpful and apologetic, so I sincerely doubt he purposely sent me a sick snake and he is going to help me out.
Will0W783
09-16-09, 07:45 AM
Thank you guys for getting back to me and giving me advice. I really appreciate it. This is the first time I've had a recently shipped snake get sick on me.
Aaron_S
09-16-09, 02:49 PM
First of all, you're a very naive person.
To believe that the snake somehow got a chill during transit and it suddenly became ill. RI's aren't an overnight sensation. It takes a short time to develop. Most RI's that are caught early (as would be the case if the snake got it during transit) can be remedied with some care and a slight change to the environment. Drugs should only be used in severe cases (which sounds like this one is).
If the deal is too good to be true, then why take the risk with a sick snake? Just for the cheaper price tag? You just finished saying you couldn't afford to prove out your pos het albino ball python but bought a GTP? Kind of odd. When I buy snakes I have TWO, a total of TWO people I buy snakes from. I've bought snakes from other individuals and they aren't upto par with what my two sellers deliver. I rather the higher price tag than to deal with sick animals.
I digress, I believe the seller knew what the snake had and didn't care or really sucks at keeping reptiles and didn't even notice. The BOI is still active for the American board and you should look up ALL buyers on it.
Will0W783
09-16-09, 06:22 PM
The snake was perfectly fine behaviorally, breathing and all when he arrived. I was not home Friday evening until Sunday afternoon, and as soon as I saw the problem I let the seller know. He offered to take the snake back and send me the other proven breeder he has, or cover treatment- that is not the response from someone who doesn't care.
The reason I'm not proving out the poss. het right now is that we don't have space for another non-morph BP to breed to one who may or may not be a morph, thus may or may not produce profitable babies. A clutch of GTPs WILL sell for a profit, whereas if I spend the same or more to get a male het albino BP to breed to a normal-appearing BP that may turn out to be just plain normal and not be worth it. I intend to prove her out once we have more space and time and money coming in. I believe I didn't phrase things the way I meant them- it's more the space issue than money with getting another male BP.
Will0W783
09-16-09, 06:38 PM
And, for me, I'm not a big-time breeder or anything, not yet anyway, and I doubt I will ever be huge. We are just starting up, and my snakes that will be breeders eventually are also my pets. I love them dearly, but I do have to keep an eye as to what are good deals and what aren't, being as I'm working on my Ph.D. and I am not exactly rolling in dough. I really appreciate all the information I'm learning on this forum. I have kept snakes for years, but am just getting really into it in the last two or so. I do research things online, but enjoy talking to other keepers and knowledgeable breeders. I just didn't want anyone to take from my previous post that I was only in it for money- believe me, I adore my snakes, they are like children to me, just as any pet would be, but I would like to eventually turn my hobby into a profitable side business.
Aaron_S
09-16-09, 06:50 PM
I'm sorry? All I heard was "GTP's sell for more so I want them".
Will0W783
09-16-09, 07:57 PM
I was just trying to explain my logic in preferring to have another GTP over a male het albino BP. I don't want an argument, I really don't want people to dislike me. I just figured it would be better to breed the GTPs over taking a chance on trying to prove out the possible het BP. It would be better to have another spider female or a pastel to breed the male spider to, but I don't want to exclusively breed ball pythons, so right now I don't want to overload myself with hets, and actual albino BPs are out of my price range until I start getting something coming back in. I understand GTPs are not easy pythons to breed, and I have done my research on breeding them. I am prepared to incubate the eggs and set the hatchlings up and work with them until they are well-established feeders before trying to sell any. I would not want them to be any less than healthy. I admire the breeders who have wonderful reputations and am hoping to be among them when I start selling. How else does anyone get ahead in breeding snakes without preferring some of the more expensive ones to breed? Please don't misread me. I really appreciate your advice and know you are one of the most experienced people on this forum, but I am limited in my financial resources and my time when my fiance and I both have other jobs. We're just trying to get the best start we can. I love GTPs- they are one of the most beautiful pythons to me, and I am dying to see a clutch of beautiful adorable babies hatching for me. (Although I am rather afraid I might get attached to all the babies and have a tough time selling them!)
totheend
09-16-09, 09:35 PM
I think that Aaron is a little put off by the $$ you seem to be concerned about. In this hobby it would be nice to see people breeding what they love no matter the price tag. I understand that you love GTP's too, but you kinda sounded like the only thing that matters is money. I had a few BP morphs.....but sold them because it wasn't what I loved. They would have made me alot more money than the African house snakes, or Bairds rat snakes.....or the hognoses or the rest of the animals I have. But I quickly realized that breeding the animals that I really love is most rewarding.
It sort of seems to me that you are overloading yourself..You've had several problems with sellers and receiving animals in the past couple months, it sort of seems like you are picking up as many animals as you can so you can breed them as soon as possible, but then you run into problems like this one fairly often. Maybe it is just very unlucky coincidences, maybe not. I think the bottom line really is breed what you REALLY love and take it slow. It's not a race or contest to see who can pop put the most babies of different species in a year. (not necessarily implying this is your motive just saying). There are so many reptiles I would LOVE to breed but I am not going out buying different animals/species left and right (most of the time, hahaha ;) ) I'm taking it slow. And you say you don't have space for a 'large BP' but you have space for a GTP? lol. I do understand what you mean by that but some people won't or don't really understand your phrasing.
What are you going to do about your GTP? Are you going to take him to the vet, get a refund, or get another breeder? How old is your female?
Just so you know, I am not attacking you at all, and I do 'like you' haha, as much as one can like someone they have never met on an internet forum really. Keep in mind you shouldn't take anything personal on an internet forum. These people, myself included, don't personally know you, we have never seen your snake room or your snakes in person and to be blunt, most people don't really care about hurting someone else's feelings and are much more concerned about the animals. Like I said, they don't know you. Brush off the insults and condescending words, and take the good advice for what it's worth.
Aaron_S
09-17-09, 06:35 AM
Let's take this GTP as an example. You bought a "proven" breeder from someone for a cheap price. It seems it most likely has an URI. Now you've got to spend more money and time trying to nurse it back to health. Buying quality animals without these issues is how a GOOD breeder who wants a GOOD reputation starts. You can't produce quality animals if you don't start with quality animals.
It's good that you "love" all your animals but you need to really think about things when you bring a new animal into your collection. If you want to be a breeder you can't be bringing in sick animals as your breeding stock. I thought you ran a rescue as well?
...Buying quality animals without these issues is how a GOOD breeder who wants a GOOD reputation starts. You can't produce quality animals if you don't start with quality animals.
...If you want to be a breeder you can't be bringing in sick animals as your breeding stock....
Excellent points Aaron. It's always nice to get a good deal on something, but the most important thing is that the snake you are receiving is completely healthy and from good stock itself. IMO it's worth paying the extra cash for the snake to begin with then in vet bills and stress later.
Will0W783
09-17-09, 08:11 AM
True, that is a good point Aaron. I thought he was a good deal and would be healthy and all, but his getting sick worries me. Now I do have to spend time and money and worry to get him healthy, and will probably not be able to breed him this year, which was the whole reason I got him right now anyway. I will have to be more careful in the future, and perhaps I too, will develop only a choice few sellers I continue to deal with. I do not run an official rescue, but I have taken in animals whose owners could no longer keep them. I do want to be a good breeder, but I know it will take time and experience and slowly building a reputation. Thank you. I am treating the new GTP with amikacin every three days, nightly warm water soaks, and added full-spectrum lighting, so hopefully he will pull out of it quickly.
citysnakes
09-17-09, 11:22 AM
I think the bottom line really is breed what you REALLY love and take it slow.
Jess, best advice i have ever heard on this forum.
when you rush into a bunch of animals you'll eventually run into a bunch of issues/problems that you've never considered and sometimes all at once.
i also think just because you received the snake with an RI doesnt necessarily mean that the breeder you purchased it from is shady and the animal is of lesser quality. sometimes the stress of shipping to another or across country is enough to cause RI in certain animals whether it be they are already immunocompromised or just sensitive. i do think you should have took the GTP to the vet before you started administering medication though...
are you able to properly quarantine all these new additions? you must have a massive house...
Will0W783
09-17-09, 11:44 AM
Yes I am able to quarantine all my new animals successfully and properly. While I don't have a massive house, I have made good use of the space that we do have, and make sure an animal is healthy before it comes out of quarantine. I think Aaron and Jess have made some good points to me about slowing down and not rushing into things. I am so fascinated by all the different snakes- GTPs for their mystical, dragon looks, BPs for their calm, docile nature, Bloods for their colorations and impressive stature, corns for their colors, etc. I dont' think I could choose just one type to breed. But it is true that by building up most of my future breeding stock recently, I have run into problems. I think they gave me the best advice in just telling me to slow it down and not get overwhelmed. I misunderstood Aaron and thought he was trying to be hurtful, but he does have the animals' best interests at heart, and doesn't want to see me get too many too quickly and then go under. I won't let that happen. My fiance and I are both committed to caring well for all our snakes and other pets. I am treating this snake, and hope that after he is well he can be a great future breeder, but I doubt I would want to subject him to the stress of cycling this season following a URI. The seller is going to help me with veterinary costs, and the snake is gorgeous, large, and most importantly for me, handleable and fairly docile. Hopefully once he's well he won't completely lose that good nature. Thank you all for the good advice and care, even if I may have not understood your intent at the time, I really do appreciate all the more experienced people here do for us "newbies."
citysnakes
09-17-09, 05:43 PM
thats good because, as you obviously know, quarantining new animals is most important step in keeping your entire collection of snakes healthy and alive.
at one point i acquired a few new additions around the same time and had snakes all over the house. how do you think my momma felt about that...?:eek:
Will0W783
09-17-09, 05:51 PM
Lol. I only live with my fiance, and he likes the snakes too... But it can be interesting during quarantine time when my parents come to visit. My dad tries to trick my mom into walking into rooms with snakes and she freaks out. She's terrified of them, and no matter how hard I try to convince her they arent' "evil" she can't get over it.
zappaguy
09-21-09, 11:07 AM
willow783??? you have 1 of the best chondro breeders in your backyard,why you wouldn't have bought from him and bought an obvious wc animal is beyond me...all comes down to the mighty $$ i guess.
Will0W783
09-21-09, 02:21 PM
I was told the animal was captive-bred and raised, and he seemed great in the pictures and I could find no negative information about the seller, who I will not mention because he is helping me out with vet costs and everything and trying all he can do to make me happy. In my mind, mistakes happen, and a snake could possibly catch a chill during shipping and get sick, and it is how the seller handles the situation that will make up my mind whether they are a bad guy or not. Now, I am not an expert on chondro breeders, and am not sure who you are referring to when you say the best chondro breeder. If you would be so kind as to tell me, perhaps I will give them my future business, IF I buy another chondro. It comes down to this: I thought I was getting a good deal for a PROVEN breeder, handleable male high-blue/yellow chondro, and I could find only good things about the seller on Fauna BOI, so I bought the snake. It turns out that within 3 days he showed signs of RI, and I notified the seller immediately, who is helping with the costs of my vet bills and treatments.
The snake has a vet appointment tomorrow morning. I have had my questions in this thread answered already. I learned my lesson to be a bit more careful in the future. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is pretty much beat to death.
Aaron_S
09-21-09, 04:28 PM
Well we'll find out from the vet on how sick the snake is and when it developed it's RI. If it was after the seller sold it and during shipping then he can't be a bad guy because he is helping you out.
zappaguy
09-22-09, 09:34 AM
I was told the animal was captive-bred and raised, and he seemed great in the pictures and I could find no negative information about the seller, who I will not mention because he is helping me out with vet costs and everything and trying all he can do to make me happy. In my mind, mistakes happen, and a snake could possibly catch a chill during shipping and get sick, and it is how the seller handles the situation that will make up my mind whether they are a bad guy or not. Now, I am not an expert on chondro breeders, and am not sure who you are referring to when you say the best chondro breeder. If you would be so kind as to tell me, perhaps I will give them my future business, IF I buy another chondro. It comes down to this: I thought I was getting a good deal for a PROVEN breeder, handleable male high-blue/yellow chondro, and I could find only good things about the seller on Fauna BOI, so I bought the snake. It turns out that within 3 days he showed signs of RI, and I notified the seller immediately, who is helping with the costs of my vet bills and treatments.
The snake has a vet appointment tomorrow morning. I have had my questions in this thread answered already. I learned my lesson to be a bit more careful in the future. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is pretty much beat to death.
i sure would like to know how a properly packed chondro can catch an ri that quickly.
i see that the same old tired statement 'of course its captive breed' is still out there with no proof....ie: did this breeder provide all the stats for this snake such as when it hatched,eating,defecation,shedding records...even lineage...i sure hope so..
ps:the breeder i am referring to is rob worrell....the best bar none.
pps:i do understand problems can happen and that is indeed where a quality breeder comes in play. if you wish you can send me an email or message with the breeders name(which i will keep confidential) and i will let you know if i know this person...i know most of them.
ppps:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/erichasler/a066.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/erichasler/IM006691.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/erichasler/IM006694.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/erichasler/IM006721.jpg
Will0W783
09-22-09, 10:27 AM
Gorgeous chondros zappaguy! I love the high blue on the adult. I will pm you the breeder's name. I took the snake into the vet this morning and it turns out he has an abscess on the floor of his mouth that got infected and has been causing respiratory problems. The vet said the respiratory infection is cleared up but the abscess still needs treatment. He cleaned it out and sterilized the cyst. The good thing is it probably happened during his last feeding and wasn't anyone's fault, but I am surprised the seller did not notice it. Although it took a few days for me to notice the symptoms as well. He has not eaten for me, as he was ill. Hopefully this will clear up quickly, and he will be eating and thriving again. He really is one of the most beautiful GTPs I've ever seen and even the vet was complimenting me on how stunning he is. :)
zappaguy
09-22-09, 10:58 AM
Gorgeous chondros zappaguy! I love the high blue on the adult. I will pm you the breeder's name. I took the snake into the vet this morning and it turns out he has an abscess on the floor of his mouth that got infected and has been causing respiratory problems. The vet said the respiratory infection is cleared up but the abscess still needs treatment. He cleaned it out and sterilized the cyst. The good thing is it probably happened during his last feeding and wasn't anyone's fault, but I am surprised the seller did not notice it. Although it took a few days for me to notice the symptoms as well. He has not eaten for me, as he was ill. Hopefully this will clear up quickly, and he will be eating and thriving again. He really is one of the most beautiful GTPs I've ever seen and even the vet was complimenting me on how stunning he is. :)
kim..a cyct doesn't 'just' occur and is indeed the fault of the 'breeder' because i can assure you that chondro didn't eat for a period of time..i would also suggest you get a fecal and or rectal swab done or at the very least treat it for internal parasites...i bet it has them.
also if i may point out you didn't address my questions of the detailed information on the chondro.
zappaguy
09-22-09, 11:40 AM
ask your vet how a cyst would/could develop on the inside of a snakes mouth...you may be surprised on the answer.
Will0W783
09-22-09, 12:45 PM
I did ask, and he told me the snake most likely got nicked by a tooth or nail when he was swallowing his last meal. That's the only scenario he gave me. I was told the snake could not be shipped the week before because he'd just eaten 4 f/t mice. Is it possible he could have hurt his mouth then? That would be....September 1 that he last ate, he was shipped the 9th and arrived the 10th, showed symptoms on the 13th and was obviously bubbling on the 14th, I started treatment with amikacin on the 15th and have been giving an injection every 3 days since. I was surprised to hear that it was a cyst- what other ways can one develop besides injury by prey? Also, wouldn't a WC green tree python not be tame? This guy is a sweetheart. I'm not defending the seller; I'm quite peeved about this situation, but I'm really hoping he is CB, as I'm in for probably a lot more problems if we was WC.
zappaguy
09-23-09, 08:09 AM
well other ways that cysts can develope is via internal and or external parasites. as for getting nicked while feeding....i guess this could in theory happen but in 35 years and countless upon countless snakes and feedings i have never seen this happen....just sayin'
also being wc or cb will not dictate on how tractable and animal is or isin't.
keep me posted and if in fact it did eat 4 mice then you will be presented with a 'gift' shortly and i strongly suggest you talk to your vet about a fecal being done and how to give said gift to the vet in a proper package and how it is to be stored after leaving the snake and getting it to the vet.
also i would recommend that you keep the cage disinfected whenever any sort of filth/dirt is presented.
keep me posted.
Will0W783
09-23-09, 09:35 AM
I will. Thanks zappaguy!
Hope your animal improves Kimberly. Chondros are very delicate when it comes to RI's and they can go downhill fast if not treated. As far as being nasty if they are imports...one of my tamest chondros (and amazons for that matter) are imported animals. One of my nastiest is an import too, but that's the animal. I have nasty tempered Amazons that I produced myself and some very tame ones I produced myself. You'll find that with arboreals, they tend to either be good or not.
Will0W783
09-26-09, 10:10 AM
He is improving; he is getting much more active, and the cyst does seem to be healing- the vet told me to check on it after 3 days. He put Grissl (or crystal?) violet dye in his mouth because he said it's a sterilizer and it will help to see the cyst. He is sill on the amikacin, once every 3 days.
Glad to hear he's improving. Keep us updated and take some pictures when he's completely well.
new2herp01
09-28-09, 07:21 PM
ok im very new to forum navigating and i have NO idea how to post new questions or anything :(...help? :)
Very simple, go to the section you want to post in...for instance, this is the green tree python section and click on the oval grey button in the left corner that says "new thread". It will open a window where you can type in whatever you want. I'd suggest that you go to the new members section and introduce yourself. That will give yourself a start. Then you can go to the section you want to ask a question, post pictures whatever.
Will0W783
10-08-09, 10:01 AM
Archimedes goes back to the vet tonight- his breathing has vastly improved and I don't see the cyst reforming on the floor of his mouth, but he hasn't been very cooperative about me looking into his mouth, not that I blame him. Hopefully he will get a clean bill of health tonight. He is still being fairly tame, but he did hiss and struggle a bit last night. He jerked when I gave him the shot and kind of twisted the needle in himself and freaked out. My fiance was holding him while I injected, and it was such a sudden jerk he made the needle spin in his skin....poor guy. Needless to say, he was not happy and hissed and jumped when we went to put him back into his cage, but didn't strike at either of us....I was a bit scared for a minute- he has some wicked chompers! I will update on his verdict after the vet visit tonight.
BP_okay
10-08-09, 05:42 PM
Good luck to you and Archimedes! I am hoping to see a +ve report when you post again. :)
Will0W783
10-08-09, 08:09 PM
Yay! Once again I successfully treated a snake. The items lodged in his abscess came out- it was two of his teeth that were in there, no more pus, no more infection, and the swelling has gone down considerably. The vet said 3 more doses of amikacin to be safe, and he put more ginsen violet in his mouth to sterilize again since the teeth pushed out. After seeing this, I agree there is no way this happened during shipment-it HAD to have been during a meal that he got a few teeth pulled out and they jabbed him in the throat. But I can't believe the seller didn't notice anything. Oh well, the important thing is that Archimedes is better. And once again he was wowing all the other people waiting with pets to see the vet. Two women who claimed to be terrified of snakes said he was soo pretty and ended up baby talking to him and ooohing over him sitting in his little carrier...Archi the ladies' man...lol.
Glad to hear he's better!
Will0W783
10-09-09, 01:59 PM
Thanks Jess! I was rather concerned.
BP_okay
10-10-09, 07:29 PM
OH Willow! I am so glad to hear that he is getting better and on the mend! Funny thing regarding the ladies reaction at the vet - the same thing happened to me with Fluffy - they kept baby talking to him. Seems like we have some charmers on our hands ;-)
Btw, do you think the problem that occurred during a feeding in his mouth, resulted from a live mouse? I am not sure whether mentioned if he was on live or f/t.
Traci
Will0W783
10-11-09, 09:16 AM
He hasn't eaten for me yet, but the seller said he was on f/t mice. I am going to try to feed him again tonight, and we will see. I imagine it could have happened during a feeding- don't know when else he'd knock teeth loose and swallow them. Who knows?
BP_okay
10-11-09, 02:33 PM
Good luck with the feeding...i'll be crossing my fingers for you and Archimedes....is that him - your avatar? Btw, will his teeth grow back? If not, should the ones he have left be enough since they mostly just swallow?
Mouth rot can often result in tooth loss so it's not unusual to see missing teeth after the disease.
Will0W783
10-12-09, 07:31 AM
Yeah that is him in my avatar. Is a mouth abscess, a single abscess, considered mouth rot? I've tried to read as much as I can on that disease, but am still not quite clear exactly what it is. He only lost two teeth- will they grow back?
An abscess and mouth rot can be different things. There might be no abscess involved in mouth rot, although the material is similar. Reptile abscesses tend to be solid, cheesy material affairs that have to be opened and debrided to get rid of them. They aren't fluid filled like in a human. Hopefully if no bone in the jaw was compromised or the blood supply to the area, the teeth will grow back. If it's only a couple of teeth, he'll do fine as they have many, many, MANY more....just wait until they chew on you and you'll know how many darn teeth they have!
Will0W783
10-13-09, 11:01 AM
Oooh, I've seen his choppers- they're like a quarter inch long!!! We only found two, and only one of those was obviously in the abscess. He still has no interest in eating, but it might take him a while now to calm down and feel better. I'm not getting too upset over it as I've only had him 3 weeks and all 3 of those weeks have involved injections and nightly warm water soaks which he does not enjoy.
On a lighter note, my mom (who is deathly afraid of snakes) looked at him on Friday night and said he was really "pretty" and "doesn't look slimey like other snakes"...lol. Archimedes' charm wins over another one. :)
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