Monthly Feeding?

[JinxtheBP]

I have male BP that is about 14 mos old. I'm under the impression he's fairly small for his age (around 22" long at most recent measurement). He's currently eating one pre-killed fuzzy mouse about once a month. Is this normal? When I provide food for him more often than that, he simply leaves it and doesn't eat. Should he be eating something larger than a fuzzy mouse? Should he be eating more often?

He appears to be doing just fine on this feeding schedule, but as a first time BP owner, I just want to make sure!

[Chu'Wuti]

Hi, Jinx, and welcome to the forum. BPs can be frustrating at times; sounds like you're there right now! If you can get a decent scales, weigh your BP (in grams). He should be eating about 10% of his body weight per week, and he should definitely be eating something larger than a fuzzy mouse. However, switching from mice to rats can sometimes be a bit challenging.

Too often pet stores underfeed BPs, and incorrectly feed them mice. Gets the new owner stuck on a bad cycle, unfortunately. Generally it's correctable but sometimes a bit tricky.

Try getting some (just a few) F/T pinky rats and thaw one with your fuzzy mouse, then try feeding both. Try feeding the rat first, but if he won't take it, feed the mouse, then offer the rat with its head heated--the whole rat should be nice & warm and the head heated more. This is the first tactic we can try to get him switched over to rats and used to eating a bit more at a time--it worked for my BP when others on this forum suggested it to me, so we'll hope it'll work for yours.

Let us know how it goes. If this doesn't work, there are other tricks to try. If it does, you'll need to get larger rats, say rat pups about 25-27 grams, pretty quickly and get him used to consuming a decent meal so he'll start growing.

Again, welcome--hope we can help!

Sandy

[JinxtheBP]

If a pet store carries frozen mice, they should also carry frozen rats, correct? I've never had to ask for anything larger than a mouse before...We have a wonderful, family owned, snake-friendly pet shop near where I live for the summer, but once I go back to school in Ohio, I think I may have trouble finding rats, since we only have larger chain pet stores near there. What should I do if I can't find them locally? Is there a place to order them online or something like that?

Is there anything I can do to encourage him to eat more often? Like I said, I've tried feeding him weekly, but the mouse just sits and he's completely uninterested in it.

I'm going to see about getting him some pinky rats tomorrow as I'll be going right by the good pet shop on my way to work :) Thank you so much for your advice!

[Chu'Wuti]

Can you describe your husbandry--temps, humidity, etc? It may be that he won't eat because something about his enclosure isn't right and, hence, isn't conducive to proper digestion.

After you return to school, will you have access to a freezer? If you do, you can order F rats online. For example, I order from themousefactory.com. Ordering in bulk is much less expensive, even with the shipping and handling, than buying one or two-three at a time from a pet store.

For now, I'd go with the pet store because you're going to want to try to move the size of the prey item up fairly quickly.

Let us know about the temps & humidity, etc., and we'll see if we can figure out why he's not eating more often. Hang in there!

[JinxtheBP]

Great news :) The store near my school carries frozen rats and the shop near my current location was SUPER helpful when I called this morning. They always have live feeder mice and rats, but the lady I talked to offered to freeze some pinky rats for me to pick up this evening. This place has always been great, all the staff are knowledgeable and extremely helpful, and their animals are all very well-kept. For anyone who lives in the NW suburbs of Chicago, the place is called Rainbow Pets in Schaumburg! I HIGHLY recommend them.

The temperature inside is typically a little over 80 degrees, closer to 85 on the side with the heating pad, closer to 80 or slightly below on the cooler side. From what I've read that should be okay...Unfortunately, he has to have a very mobile, very transportable enclosure since I move around a lot, so he's currently in a large rubbermaid tub with holes poked in the lid. It's semi-transparent with an opaque lid. He has a hide on each end of the container, a piece of driftwood, and a shallow bowl that is now a little bit too small for him to soak in comfortably, so I'll be upgrading that soon, likely on my trip to the pet shop today. Oh, and he has newspaper bedding, both laid flat on the bottom and a layer of shredded newspaper as well. I'm not certain how to measure the humidity, I'm afraid...That could very well be the problem. Any info would be appreciated!

[JinxtheBP]

Here are some pictures. I just changed the newspaper, so here's how it looks right now. I have to clean the paper off of his water bowl before I refill it, but I just stuck it back in there for photographing purposes, lol.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/juvenileinjection/DSC09320.jpg

And some extra pictures of his royal cuteness just for good measure ;)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/juvenileinjection/DSC09323.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/juvenileinjection/DSC09322.jpg

[Chu'Wuti]

The temperature inside is typically a little over 80 degrees, closer to 85 on the side with the heating pad, closer to 80 or slightly below on the cooler side.

Your first problem, and the most important in terms of feeding and digestion, is that your temps are too low on the warm side. He won't eat more often because his digestive processes are really slow if he's too cool. While your ambient temps should be 80-85 during the day (don't drop below 78 deg even at night), your snake needs a basking area of 88-95 deg F for proper digestion. (Ambient means the general temp in the enclosure, but the basking area should always be higher)

I am pretty sure you can use an under-the-tank heater (UTH) with your Rubbermaid tub. Quite a few people on here keep snakes in Rubbermaid tubs, so hopefully one of them will get on here and confirm or make another suggestion.

Regarding humidity, get a digital humidity gauge--a hygrometer (not a hydrometer). You need a minimum humidity of 60% in general, raising it to close to 100% when he goes into shed.

He does look slender, but he doesn't look dangerously thin. Snakes can go a long time without eating; they are extremely efficient digestors. I think yours is going to be fine--once you get a warmer basking area he'll probably start acting like he's hungry much more often! ;)

[JinxtheBP]

Okay. Is there anything I can do besides the UTH to up the temperature? Because I already have a UTH on one end...So, the basking area temperature the actual *surface* temperature (as opposed to the ambient temperature)?

I just fed him a pinky rat which was about twice the size of the fuzzies he has been eating lately. He ate it with no problems at all :) I'm glad that wasn't a problem, switching to pinky rats. I have a few fuzzies left still...Would it be okay to feed him two of those for the next feeding? If so, how much time do I give him between offering them? Can I give them both at once and let him eat them in his own time? Or should I let him eat one and then offer the other? Assuming that he actually eats again in the next week or so, instead of monthly, like he has been. I'm really glad that he ate the rat without a fuss!

[Chu'Wuti]

For measuring basking temps, always place a temp probe or thermometer on the very spot the snake will be when basking; keep in mind that the temp could be higher an inch or two above where you measure (where your snake's back will be). For measuring ambient temps, measure the substrate surface.

Congrats on getting him to eat the rat!

Instead of feeding both fuzzies next time, combine a fuzzy & a pinky rat for the next few feedings. Before you run out of fuzzy mice, get a few larger rats (next size up) and combine a fuzzy mouse with the rat pup or whatever size you get.

Initially try offering them one at a time. Give him time to completely swallow the first prey item. After he has swallowed the tail, he'll kink his neck & squeeze the first prey animal down farther into his gut. Then he'll gape to rehinge his jaw. Reheat the head of the 2nd prey item and offer it after that, as some snakes won't take another prey item until they're done gaping. However, if he doesn't seem interested, you can certainly try offering earlier--some will take another prey item as the first one's tail is going down or very soon afterwards.

Some snakes will eat a cold prey item left lying in the enclosure, but others won't touch it. For my BP, the prey has to act alive & especially act like it's about to creep away. For my milk snake, the prey just has to be within reach & twitching a bit. For another milk snake I snake-sat for awhile, the prey could just lie on a board in the cage & he'd go get them. Other snakes I've had were equally diverse in their feeding responses.

In other words, we can't really predict what your snake will do! ;) Have fun figuring it out!

[Will0W783]

I would also not keep him on shredded newspaper. The strips could be accidentally ingested and the ink is not good for him. Paper towels or unshredded newspaper is better.

[JinxtheBP]

Willow, when I feed him, I clear the shredded paper aside so that he has a nice, clean area of newspaper to get to the food. Is that okay? I would think that'd be the only instance in which the shredded paper might be dangerous?

Chu, thank you again for your advice. :) You've been so, so helpful and I really appreciate it. I'll try feeding him a rat and a mouse next time, as you suggested...The idea here is to kind of wean him off of the mice all together, while still bulking up his meal some, correct? I have two more midsize pinky rats left and four fuzzy mice. So, when I go get him more rats I'll get two small to midsize pups (to feed in conjunction with the leftover fuzzies) and then one larger pup to be fed on its own. Does that sound like a good plan? :) I was a little nervous about just bumping him right up to much larger food...I'm not sure if that's actually an issue or not, but I'm feeling much better about the plan I've got now ;) Again, thank you so much! Your knowledge has been absolutely indispensable.

[Will0W783]

I would go to the whole newspaper IMO. Even after he drinks, he could get a piece of paper wet and get it stuck to his lips and end up ingesting it. I don't know for sure that it would make him sick, but I personally would prefer to see him on solid sheets, or tank liner. I have had my BP for 3.5 years and after trying newspaper, aspen, cypress mulch, paper towel and tank liner, I have to say I prefer the tank liner over all the other things. Basically it looks like a piece of rough green carpet. They come in precut sizes for different tanks and most pet stores carry them. The material is pretreated with antimicrobial agents and odor-killing agents. Get a few of them and put one in. Change them weekly. When you take one out, put a clean one in, then take the dirty one and put it in bucket with 2 tbsp bleach to 1 gallon of warm water. Let it soak for an hour or so, and scrub at it if there is dried urates or feces on it. Then thoroughly rinse it a few times under running water, wring it and hang to dry. They are so easy, can't be ingested, don't wrinkle easily so the snake will have trouble bunching it all into one end, and are neat. The only thing is you do need to keep up with changing them often, because a good pee will leave an odor. They also hold humidity fairly well. Again, all this is IMHO, and I tend to err on the side of caution.
As for food items, don't be afraid bumping up to larger prey. I used to give my BP 2 white mice every other week because that is ALL he would take. He wouldn't eat rats, wouldn't eat mice if they were any other color besides white, wouldn't eat them more often than every other week. He was a picky pain. But I put him in a smaller tank and he's in a climate-controlled room I have set up for all my snakes, and he now pounds frozen/thawed anything you put in front of him. He was having eye cap problems and the vet told me he was too thin, so I started offering f/t mice, so I could then bump him to f/t rats, and he now takes a medium f/t rat every other week. He's filled out nicely but not gotten overweight, and it is quite remarkable how their jaws can stretch. Just go with about the thickness of the body at the thickest point.

[Chu'Wuti]

The idea here is to kind of wean him off of the mice all together, while still bulking up his meal some, correct?

You've got it! We're keeping our fingers crossed that it all goes well for you.

I've never used newspaper as a substrate, so I would follow the Kimberly's advice as someone who has more experience in that area.

BPs can be weirdly picky at times, as Kimberly's BP was. Mine doesn't seem to care about color at all, thank goodness! I hope yours doesn't either, Jinx!

And you're welcome--that's what we come here for!

[JinxtheBP]

Good news! It's been a week since I last fed him and tonight he *voraciously* ate both a pinky rat and a fuzzy mouse. He took them both a little bit strangely, which worried me, but he managed to get them down with relative ease, so I'm pretty pleased :) He ate the pinky rat tail first...And then the fuzzy mouse he tried to get from the *side*, but finally managed to work around to its head. In the end, though, he actually ended up eating it *neck* first, with the head bent down flush against the mouse's chest...Even like that it wasn't as girthy as the pinky rat, so I suppose that was okay too...Just made me nervous to watch it!

I think that he is eating better primarily because I've managed to get the humidity up with a larger water dish and slight rearrangements in the enclosure.

Oddly enough, though, lately he seems to always choose to settle on the cool side of the enclosure, which is usually around 72 degrees, rather than the warm side which is between 80 and 85...Even now (and last week) after feeding, he's chosen the cool side hide over the warm side. I've tried rearranging and keeping his favorite hide on the warm side, but he's still been opting for the other hide on the cooler end...

Pictures following in the next two posts + another question!

[JinxtheBP]

Here's the pinky rat, tail first...

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ohthunderbelle/Other%20Pets/IMG_5954.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ohthunderbelle/Other%20Pets/IMG_5956.jpg

And the fuzzy mouse, after he got it flipped around.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ohthunderbelle/Other%20Pets/IMG_5959.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ohthunderbelle/Other%20Pets/IMG_5961.jpg

[JinxtheBP]

Also...is this normal? When he was swallowing he kinda "stood up". I'd never seen him do that before, but he did it both times this time.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu81/ohthunderbelle/Other%20Pets/IMG_5964.jpg

[Will0W783]

Nice, he seems like a hungry little guy. It's great that you got him on rats at a young age- your life will be much easier now. Now just get him on frozen/thawed and you'll be all set. :)

[JinxtheBP]

;) He's already on frozen/thawed! Yay! :D

[Chu'Wuti]

After he finishes swallowing (getting his meal through his throat), he still has to push his meal farther down his digestive tract. By moving upright, he's using gravity to help with that process. You'll also seem him "kink" himself into a strong S-curve with the bend in his body just forward of the prey item, then literally push the prey on down his digestive tract by moving the bend in his body farther down his body. It's quite interesting to watch the "push, push, push" process. Both of these tactics help get the prey item down where full digestion can occur.

The last thing he'll do is "gape" to rehinge his jaw, which he unhinged to swallow the prey.

I didn't ask earlier--what thermometer(s) are you using to measure your temps, and where are they located? His behavior after eating suggests that your temps may be higher than you think they are.

[JinxtheBP]

Both are small digital read thermometers. I'm not sure what brand or anything. But I had them both out in the house and checked them against the thermostat and they read the same, so I figured they were pretty accurate.

Shortly after I posted, he moved back over to the warmer end, after I put the other hide underneath the one he's favored in the past...I think he might have a new favorite hide :)

[Will0W783]

JinxtheBP, you really sound like you are doing an excellent job with that little guy. He's precious. I love to watch them eat; I know it might sound a bit morbid, but it is really fascinating to watch them get food all the way down into their tummies. Like Chu said, the standing up and kinking is totally normal. Almost all of my snakes take the last few gulps standing up and then slowly work it down their throats. Watch for the gaping at the end, it looks like a big yawn, and it gives you a really good look at the inside of the mouth. As the snake grows, if you keep an eye on the gapes, you'll see his teeth grow as well. Snakes are soo much fun!

[JinxtheBP]

I tried to get a picture of him gaping and my camera battery died RIGHT before he did it, lol! I was waiting for it, with the camera up to my face and everything! Darn! Maybe next time :)

Kimberly, thank you so much! He's the first snake I've cared for on my own. My first one, a corn snake, my dad did a lot of the setting up and caring for her. Unfortunately, when I left for college, he was her sole caretaker and ended up not latching the lid properly and she got out...We never did find her :( Jinx is the first snake that's really *mine* and it's so rewarding to take care of him :) This even that was formerly Lee Watson's Reptile Swap (not sure what it's called now) is coming up next weekend and I'm thinking about getting a new baby corn. I think I'm ready for another one! I'm so excited! Next weekend cannot come soon enough ;)

[Chu'Wuti]

Glad you're using digital thermometers, Jinx! Smart! Where do you have them placed in the enclosure?

I hate to tell you this . . . but I'm sure Kimberly will agree--I think you're hooked! Herps are addictive, aren't they? ;)

Keep up the good work--and have fun watching your snake!

[JinxtheBP]

One at each end of the enclosure, stuck to the tank with double sided tape a couple inches from the bottom, lol.

They *are* addictive. I can't wait to get my new corn :) I also plan on getting a rainbow boa at some point, but I can't afford to get him set up with the proper housing and humidity and stuff, so that has to wait. However, I have an extra UTH and a smaller water bowl and some extra hides and, of course, plenty more newspaper! So, setting up my corn snake in a tub that I already have is *really* inexpensive, lol! ;)

[Chu'Wuti]

They *are* addictive. I can't wait to get my new corn I also plan on getting a rainbow boa Oh, yeah! You are definitely hooked! ;) And it does sound like you are completely ready for the next one, too! Have fun!

You might want to get another digital thermometer, or a hygrometer/thermometer combo, and put it inside each of the hides to determine the temps & humidity there. The temp inside the hide can be significantly different that the temp outside; same with humidity. I use an Acu-Rite indoor/outdoor thermometer/hygrometer combo; the wireless sensor/transmitter is inside my humid hide that's over the UTH so I can monitor the temp & humidity there. My other temp probes are under a heat lamp and near the cool end so I know what's going on in each zone.

[JinxtheBP]

Ohhh, that's such a good idea, to have the indoor/outdoor! I think we actually have one of those handy at our house that's not being used!

Thanks again, Chu! :)

[citysnakes]

you may want to bump your 72F cool end and 85F hot end closer to 82F cool and 90F hot. you may also want to get some type of control for your UTH such as a thermostat or rheostat.

[JinxtheBP]

Can anyone recommend an affordable brand of UTH with a temperature control? I could use the one I have now for my new corn snake (which would provide a better heat range for him than for Jinx) and use one with a controller/thermostat for my BP :)

[citysnakes]

you need to control all heating elements. a rheostat(or dimmer) is like five bucks. hit up a home depot and ask for one. they'll know what you are talking about.

[Chu'Wuti]

A rheostat is a good idea. It's really important to know what the temps are right where the snake is. Right now, we don't really know if they are too cool, as I first thought, or if they are warmer than what you initially posted, which the snake's behavior after feeding could suggest. With a rheostat, you can set the temp for the UTH to what it should be for the snake's optimum digestive function & health.