bad pics and good eggs!

[citysnakes]

hey guys so i finally figured out how to get pics up here so i thought i might show off a clutch i recently discovered.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=64&pictureid=285

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=64&pictureid=286

thanks for looking!

[Chu'Wuti]

Oh, Nice! OK, I'm trying to learn all the morphs, so I'm going to make a wild guess here--granite pinstripe female? Or am I miles off? ;)

and those eggs look very healthy! Congrats!

[citysnakes]

haha thanks! good guess... but its simply a regular spider female.

[mykee]

Nice work Julian! Nice loking eggs too, what was your female spider bred to?

[Chu'Wuti]

OK, I started thinking after I went to bed last night that I might have mixed up pinstripe & spider! Darn! So it was a BAD guess--you were either being too kind or very sarcastic!

OK, so looking at McCurley's photos in the book, apparently pinstripes don't have the dorsal striping and spiders do . . . and spiders have white extending up their sides more than pinstripes typically do. Am I getting this? Your beauty looks like she has freckles even on her belly. So now we have to wait two months to see the outcome . . .

[citysnakes]

thanks Mykee! she was bred to a pastel so i got my fingers crossed for lots of bees.



you were either being too kind or very sarcastic!

Sandy, i was being kindly sarcastic! ;) you'll get the morphs someday... but theres so damn many now that its hard to keep up.

[siz]

Oh, congrats! :D Hopefully you get some nice bees from her!

[Chu'Wuti]

I can take it, Julian! :)

OK. Pastel is co-dominant color, Spider is dominant pattern and color. How does that work? You're looking for what McCurley calls Bumblebee Spider or Pastel Spider? Was your male from the yellow or the orange line? Or maybe I should ask what the pastel line was . . . Graziani or NERD or ??? Would you explain the hypothetical genetics to me, please? Sorry for all the questions!

[Kmef07]

you'll get the morphs someday... but theres so damn many now that its hard to keep up.


That is why I dont' even try anymore. some look so close I think that people just want to discover new things so they just come up with a name. and some of them they call a different name so they can jack the price up. around Cincinnati I found that many of the breeders aren't honest and will make it sound like an awesome morph to a beginner and then they find out later they overpaid for a very common animal.

[Kmef07]

oh sorry for the ranting...

awesome looking eggs julian you must be a very proud keeper right about now. lol

[Chu'Wuti]

Well, I'm planning to go looking at a couple of herp shows in June, and I want to be fore-armed with enough knowledge to keep anyone from scamming me with a "super-fantastic morph" that isn't. So now is the time to study hard!

[Aaron_S]

Well I know a few things about morphs. I believe everyone slaps the name of their pastel line onto their animals to be able to sell it for more. Really, there's only two lines of pastel and it's just the "pastel jungle" or more commonly known as a "pastel" and the "lemon pastel". Which I believe NERD did originate, I may be wrong on that so please don't quote me. It's supposed to be a brighter pastel colour.

Very cool though Julien. Best of luck getting a bee out of them!

[Chu'Wuti]

Per McCurley, pp. 204-205: "Pastel Jungle AKA Pastel, Graziania Pastel, Lemon pastel, Stonewash, Blonde etc) (in reference to specific lines established by various breeders). First produced: Kevin McCurley, NERD, 1997, proven by Graziani reptiles . . . this mutation brings yellows - and in some lines, orange - to the base color of the snake . . ."

That's why I'm asking about the yellow & the orange & what line . . .

[Aaron_S]

To be honest, at least up here, we don't keep track too much on that. From my visits to american forums and from what I understand, it's not too prevalant there either. The only two that really make a difference are the lemon pastels vs pastels. Despite what the book says.

Though, with each snake it differs. You can have some snakes that have more orange and more with yellow. I would think you can selectively breed for a higher orange or yellow if you really wanted too but that's a very long project.

[citysnakes]

Oh, congrats! :D Hopefully you get some nice bees from her!


thanks for the bee vibes Jess!



OK. Pastel is co-dominant color, Spider is dominant pattern and color. How does that work? You're looking for what McCurley calls Bumblebee Spider or Pastel Spider? Was your male from the yellow or the orange line? Or maybe I should ask what the pastel line was . . . Graziani or NERD or ??? Would you explain the hypothetical genetics to me, please? Sorry for all the questions!


the pastel and spider gene are both co-dominant (or incomplete dominant) genes. by breeding a pastel to a spider, each egg will have a 1/4 chance of being either a normal, pastel, spider or bumblebee.

a "Pastel Spider" or a "Bumblebee Spider", as you put it, is simply a bumblebee which is the physical expression of the pastel and spider gene.

hope this helps.




awesome looking eggs julian you must be a very proud keeper right about now. lol


ya man they all look great. this is my third clutch so far so im feeling pretty good right about now.


Very cool though Julien. Best of luck getting a bee out of them!


thanks Aaron at least one is all i want!

[Chu'Wuti]

the pastel and spider gene are both co-dominant (or incomplete dominant) genes. by breeding a pastel to a spider, each egg will have a 1/4 chance of being either a normal, pastel, spider or bumblebee.

OK, so is it:

....... s*.....N
p*...p*s*..p*N

N....s*N.....NN

where p*s* is the bumblebee? (If you can see what I'm trying to do--the dots were to force the spaces)

and thanks for all your patience & explanations, Julian & Aaron! Julian, it's going to be so cool when they hatch!

[Aaron_S]

I am slightly confused by your punnet's square. I think it's the dots. I'm sure you have the right idea but I'll see if I can write one out and you tell me if this is what yours looks like to you.

Sn Legend: S = Spider P = Pastel n = Normal
.....................
Pn:PS nn
:Pn Sn

I don't think it looks entirely correct in regards to the proper way they match up but that's what I've got for it.

[Chu'Wuti]

And I'm confused by yours, LOL! I couldn't figure out a way to insert a table, which would really help, and without the dots, my spacing wouldn't come out right. Also, I was using McCurley's genetic terms, where P* represents the co-dominant pastel--apparently the asterisk stands for co-dominant; S* represents the co-dominant spider (though McCurley says its dominant), and N represents the normal. I'll switch to your terms.

In words: Julian has a Spider and a Pastel that he has bred together. Based on his expectations for the outcomes, I'm guessing the Spider is Sn (per your punnet terms), the Pastel is Pn. Combined, he would get (hypothetically) one PS, one Pn, one Sn, and one nn. I think you're saying the same thing, right?

As I've been studying the info on the NERD's website & in the book, it's beginning to appear that a person who wants to do any breeding (and be able to come up with interesting outcomes) should acquire pastels, spiders, or womas or a combination thereof. At least, McCurley asserts these particular morphs have a great deal of potential. I'm interested in learning your opinions about this.

I'm wondering--do you guys who are breeding ever break even? Especially as a beginner, I wouldn't expect to make money, but it would be nice if my little hobby paid for itself. Or is that too much to expect?

[Aaron_S]

Yes I can see where your confusion lies in my little table. I screwed the spacing and didn't double check it like I should have. You explained it in words on what I was trying to convey so we've got it sorted out. That is also based on a 4 egg clutch for simple number crunching.

From seeing the market and a lot of the combinations that the pastel is probably one of the "foundation" mutations you would want in any breeding project. The same with the spider. Womas are a little different because they don't have a super. Well they do, they refer to it as the pearl but noone has been able to keep one alive.

I haven't bred anything as of yet so I'm still spending my own money on my animals. It does tend to take a few years of breeding to break even. With the purchase or building of incubators and rack systems as well as food and the possible investment of more animals it adds up.

[citysnakes]

Sandy your square is correct and hypothetically, based on these specific genotypes, each egg has a 1/4 chance of producing each predicted phenotype.

the odds are theoretical and any possible combination of phenotypes may be produced.

many people do consider the spider morph dominant because only one copy of the spider gene results in the full (known) physical expression of the morph but there may be a homozygous spider except its physical expression is exactly like the spider or even lethal(so i have heard). so i guess the spider gene is dominant until proven otherwise but it is likely that there is a homozygous spider lying around somewhere.




I'm wondering--do you guys who are breeding ever break even? Especially as a beginner, I wouldn't expect to make money, but it would be nice if my little hobby paid for itself. Or is that too much to expect?

its hard to break even when you constantly have to add another snake to your collection but it is very possible.;) you just have to be smart and make sure your motivation is your love not greed.

[siz]

Apologizes for the ignorance but...Is it possible to have a het pastel?

[Chu'Wuti]

Siz, from what I understand of McCurley's explanation on pp. 128-129 of his book, the Pastel is the heterozygous condition: Np* is the way McCurley identifies it. They don't call it a "het Pastel" because the gene for pastel is co-dominant, which is indicated by the *. There is no Pp--the gene for pastel is simply p* (combined with the allele for normal: Pn as in Aaron's terminology above).

If you breed two Pastels together, you can (hypothetically) get two Np* pastels, one NN normal, and one Super Pastel: p*p*, which would be the homozygous condition.

If you don't have McCurley's book, his website, New England Reptile Distributors, has several genetics lessons that are very clearly explained beginning here: New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more! (http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html)

[Chu'Wuti]

Womas are a little different because they don't have a super. Well they do, they refer to it as the pearl but noone has been able to keep one alive. Yes, I read about that in McCurley's book--motor skill issues, failure to thrive--very sad.

only one copy of the spider gene results in the full (known) physical expression of the morph but there may be a homozygous spider except its physical expression is exactly like the spider or even lethal(so i have heard).

OK, so now I am confused again. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding McCurley's description of the Killer Bee Spider (AKA Spider Super Pastel): "Dominant (Spider) and dominant (Super Pastel). Two homozygous expressions." (p. 255) I thought he meant that the Killer Bee Spider would be SSp*p* for those two genes? Or have they learned more about that combination since he wrote his text?

[citysnakes]

i guess you can say a "het super pastel", thats a pastel. just like a "het ivory" is a yellow belly. make sense?



super pastel is not a dominant characteristic. it is the full expression of the pastel phenotype when an animal has two copies of the pastel gene.


so to simplify; the pastel gene is "co-dominant" and the pastel phenotype is the partial expression of it. one animal with two copies of the pastel gene results in the full expression of the pastel gene(the super pastel). the super pastel has two copies of the codominant pastel gene.


a friend told me that we call the spider gene dominant only in reference to terminology within our everyday hobbyist lingo. this makes sense because if the spider was truely a dominant gene then a spider x normal breeding should result in 100% spiders which is clearly not the case. therefore it may not be so farfetched to believe that possibly the homozygous expression of the spider gene is exact to the partial expression and/or lethal.

but to simplify; the spider is a "dominant" gene with no super form.

and as far as i know the killer bee is a super pastel/spider so it has two copies of the pastel gene and one copy of the spider gene.

hope this helps.

[Chu'Wuti]

as far as i know the killer bee is a super pastel/spider so it has two copies of the pastel gene and one copy of the spider gene. OK, if that's so, what is the other homozygous expression? It would be p*p* and Sn and ??

[citysnakes]

the homozygous expression of the spider gene doesnt exsist or is unknown or is exactly like the partial expression of the spider gene or is lethal.

lethal like the homozygous expression of the woma, where all pearl hatchlings die.

so a killerbee would be, using your characters, p*p*sn if i am not mistaken.

[Chu'Wuti]

If that's so (p*p*sn), then I wonder what McCurley meant by "two homozygous expressions" in describing the Killer Bee. I'm going to e-mail him & enquire, as I'd really like to understand this . . .