Frustation w/ Converting to F/T

[BP_okay]

Last night was such a frustrating night for me and my sand boa. He's had one clouded eye for over a week now(hasn't shed), and I have been trying to convert him from live to F/T over the last week as well. Last night, for the first time, he finally struck and constricted. I was advised not to feed live by Sandy(such a wise woman), as his strike would be off, and personally, I was to scared to put the live mouse in there w/ my sand boa having impaired vision. I was so excited, and much to my dismay, he uncurled and went under the sand. I guess he was disappointed, just like me. The mouse was fairly warm, but I had trying for 10 minutes or so, moving the mouse around with tongs, so maybe it had cooled down too much. So I just wanted some pointers/reasons why he just rejected the free meal. I suppose I didn't pull on the mouse long enough emulating a struggle, but any help would be appreciated.

Also, how often should I attempt this, to avoid stressing him out too much. He's obviously hungry,(b/c he struck) and as he's been on a 2 week feeding schedule and it's been over 3 weeks now. I want him to eat, b/c from what I read, he gets alot of his hydration from the mice, and, in turn, that helps with his shedding; he's had a bad shed in the past. Sorry for the long post, just a worried mama.

Thanks in advance,
Traci

[Chu'Wuti]

I don't blame you for being worried, Traci! I'm wondering what's going on, too, and I'm hoping that Mykee, Aaron_S, or Julian will pop onto this thread and help us out--they are the most experienced/knowledgeable people I know on this forum.

I will say that if it took 10 minutes of you wiggling the mouse in front of your boa's face for him to strike, he just may not be hungry. He might have decided to "kill" the pesky mouse just to keep it from bothering him any more.

Also, it isn't that uncommon--or dangerous--for a snake to go a month, several months, or even longer without eating. He's not going to starve to death for a while yet, so don't worry too much about it.

I'm more concerned about the eye. Can you tell if the clouded eye is a different shape than the other eye--maybe dimpled or crinkled?

What substrate are you using? I think you should check for mites, as mites can sometimes cause inflammation around the eye and it could be part of the problem your boa is having. I'm speculating, here, as I have never had this problem before. Agood way to check for mites is by using white paper towels for substrate for awhile. You'll see what looks like poppy-seed sized black dots if he has mites.

Also, can you post pics--one of the bad eye, and one of the good eye?

Finally, give us all the details of his enclosure, temps, humidity, etc. again here, so that when Julian or Mykee or Aaron_S do check on this thread, they'll have all the details they need at their fingertips.

[BP_okay]

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for the response. I just took him out for some pics(I apologize for the quality- I only have a camera on my phone). It doesn't seem there is crinkling nor dimpling on his eye. They both do seem to be the same size, it's just a stark difference with the clouding between the 2 eyes. His left is the troubled eye. His right eye is the clear one. The pics do get better as they progress.

As far as the husbandry, I am using crushed walnut shells, as the gal at the store used that with him for 2 years. I just supposed that what he would used to he and was happy. I did some research, and it seemed that it was an acceptable substrate. Any reason why it's a poor choice would be welcomed by anyone.

Re: the rest: He's in a 10 gallon tank(He's 18-20 inches) He has an UTH and his cool temps are 76-78 degrees; the warm temps are no higher than 95 degrees on the hot end. My book on sand boas, said that Saharans like it pretty hot. Those temps seem to match up pretty well with the book's recs. Humidity is around 25%. I live in the midwest, so when it rains alot is seems to up that around 40%. And when he's in shed I put a larger water bowl in and mist once a day to raise the humidity up the 50% or so. He also has a nice rock to help with the shedding too.

Hopefully this helps anyone, and especially those folks you mentioned.

Thanks again Sandy,
You always care and I appreciate your help.

Traci

[Chu'Wuti]

Hmm . . . the pics are just too fuzzy for me to be able to see what's going on with the eye.

I think we should check on the possibility of mites, though, which will require removing all the current substrate. Perhaps you could store it in a plastic tub for now. Put in white paper toweling for a few days; that way you'll be able to see if there are mites.

I'll see if I can get some more people to take a look at this.

[BP_okay]

Thanks Sandy, I really do appreciate it. I will switch out the substrate to paper towels and get him some hides. Thanks so much for your help and let's hope for the best. In the mean time, I'll try to see if I can get a hold of a friend's camera to get better pics for ya.

Thanks again,
Traci

[BP_okay]

Just as a side note, after switching out his substrate for paper towels, he kind of went nuts. I gave him hides, and understandably he rejected them and burrowed under the paper towels. He is really stressed out. But I suppose finding out if he has mites is more important than his comfort right now.

Thanks Again,
Traci

[Chu'Wuti]

he rejected them and burrowed under the paper towels Poor baby! It must seem to him that you just moved him to a very strange place . . .

Looking forward to those pics so we can try to figure out what's going on.

[BP_okay]

Yeah, poor guy...it was really hard for me too watch. It does appear that he is going into a shed cycle now though. His skin has become dull as it usually does; I will definitely try to have those new pics by tonight.

Thx Again,
Traci :)

[BP_okay]

Sandy,

The friend with the camera is out of town for a few days, but I will continue to update you about the appeaance of mites of lack of them in a couple of days. Thanks again for your concern and help.

Traci

[Aaron_S]

Well, I really can't tell by the pictures about the eye. I've only ever seen one snake with terrible eye problems and even then I didn't know what the exact problem was.

I think you're best leaving the eye thing alone until after it's next shed, if it is coming up. From the pictures it didn't look too bad but my first thought is some sort of infection.


To answer your feeding questions. Sandy did mention in her first response that it's quite possible the snake just killed the mouse because the snake was ticked off. If you have to feed live then do so if you're worried too long of a hunger strike is a bad thing. I always found that moving from live to fresh killed then to F/T is a good way to go. It gets them used to the already killed animal being a prey item.

[BP_okay]

Aaron, thank you so much for your opinion. Sandy had mentioned her respect of your vast herp knowledge, and if you looked at this thread b/c of hear, thank you Sandy!

There is no appearance of mites, and he was definitely working hard to shed last night; and he seems to be on schedule for his usual shed. Hopefully, when he is done, the eye issue will go away, but if not, I suppose we can go from there. I will keep you guys posted either way, as I sincerely am a newbie, and appreciate all the advice you all provide.

Re: the feeding, I will covert gradually, as you suggested. It does make sense that he was just trying to get rid of the mouse and was annoyed, as he was about to go into shed, and was simply not interested.

Once again, I am tremendously greatful for your advice, and I will keep you guys posted.

Traci :)

[Kmef07]

My Bp i had would kill the mouse because it was annoyed with it then it would go as far away as it could from it. But my bp was sick so that is why mine did it. I would do what aaron says because him and mykee and Julian are like herp gods lol.

[BP_okay]

What was wrong with your BP...and how did you rectify it?

Just as an update to one of the herp gods(Aaron S) :) , and everyboyd else, there are still no mites, so I assume that is not the problem. I put him back in with his substrate so his shed would be better. He's definitley working hard and I will let you know how it turns out. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Thank You Again,
Traci

[Chu'Wuti]

OK, one possibility eliminated. That's good. Now we wait for the shed and see what happens with the eye, unless Aaron_S or someone comes up with another idea.

[Aaron_S]

I am flattered by the name of "herp god" but I am by no means even close. I still make mistakes and have been incorrect on these forums before. I do not possess infinite knowledge, I've just had the privlidge of working with a diverse amount of animals over time.

[BP_okay]

Sandy, yep. Thanks for the help with the first possibility. Just a waiting game now, and he's such a slow shedder.

Aaron, even though you are a "herp god", you are so humble ;). Sincerely, thanks for your help with my little guy.

[BP_okay]

Here's an update to Nicolai's situation regarding the eye. I finally just couldn't stand it anymore and took him for a $52 exotic vet visit. Somehow his dimmer had completely messed up his temps, and had raised them by 10 degrees too much on the hot side. I was concerned about dehydration for that reason, as well as having problem sheds in the past. Apparently a piece of the crushed walnut shell had been caught between his eye and his eyecap, thus causing irritation in that eye! Poor guy! I know that has to be extremely uncomfortable. She said he musked them during that examination! Who knew sand boas did that! Do all snakes have musk glands?
The other eye now has an eyecap as well and he's shedding. I was also told by the vet that I need to soak him once a week to ensure proper hydration(after he has shed), as his crushed walnut shell might be contributing to that issue. She said not to change substrates, as he's lived with that his entire life, and that's all he knows. She took a blood test(no infection(Yeah!)) and gave him some fluids to help him out a little bit. She said that I needed to change his substrate weekly and clean the tank out every two weeks, b/c the ammonia/whatever in his urine/excrement really builds up in the type of substrate he has.
Interstingly enough, she also recommended that I get him linear flourescent reptisun 2.0 UVA bulb, as this would make him healthy and obtain Vitamin D3. 12 hours on/off. Of course, unfortunately, I have to re-regulate his temps, b/c the bulb is slightly heating up the tank a bit. :(

Sorry for the lengthy post, but you guys really tried to help me out when I was worried, and I wanted to let you know the latest. Also, any other sand boa keepers out there might find this info very beneficial someday.

Now it's just crossing our fingers that both eyecaps come off and we have a good shed. :)

Thanks again for all your help and concern,

Traci

Well, that's the jist of the vet visit.

[Aaron_S]

It's great you got everything checked out by a 'qualified herp vet'. I'm glad the bad eye is apparantly now all cleared up by this vet.

I do say though I wonder how a sand boa which burrows all the time is going to recieve any benefit from a UVB bulb which is on during the day? This makes no sense, as well as the bulb would need to be within 12 inches of the snake's basking spot for it to be of any benefit. The vet supposedly doesn't also know that snakes get all their vitamins from their food items. It's why we feed whole prey items. Everything is contained inside that little 'pill'.

You can change the substrate if you like. Go with aspen if you want. Not a large difference and you can get then in a shaved form so they are larger and won't get stuck in an eye. What I used to do with sandboas was fill their water dish only when it dried out unless it was going through a shed cycle, then it was every day it was topped up or a small spray. The snake won't really care aslong as it can burrow in the substrate, it'll be fine.

[citysnakes]

good luck with the shed and definitely change that garbage substrate. i have no idea who decided to start crushed walnut shells as a substrate but it has to be one of the dumbest things ive seen.

[totheend]

good luck with the shed and definitely change that garbage substrate. i have no idea who decided to start crushed walnut shells as a substrate but it has to be one of the dumbest things ive seen.

That is the best advice given so far!! Crushed walnut shell is awful! Try some aspen chip. It is much nicer and if ingested the snakes pass it without any problems.
The light is also useless. They stay underground all day. It will do nothing for the snake.
And if the boa won't eat f/t then give it live. It really isn't uncommon for sand boas to eat live.

[Will0W783]

My rough scale sand boa will only eat live, and even then he is a difficult feeder. He is on aspen and he seems to enjoy it. He burrows down into it just fine and sticks his head out at night to look around. I recommend the aspen too. My fiance has his ball python on ground walnut shells- I tried to get him to switch to something else, but he won't. What is the problem with the shells- I thought they were supposed to not cause impaction?

[Chu'Wuti]

Traci, I just searched through my academic database to see whether there is any new information regarding UVB requirements in snakes, particularly boas. About a year ago, some research was published showing that corn snakes appear to benefit from UVB exposure, but the article authors state that further research is needed "before exact husbandry requirements can be determined" (Acierno, MJ; Mitchell, MA; Zachariah, TT; Roundtree, MK; Kirchgessner, MS; & Guzman DSM; 2008; American Journal of Veterinary Research vol. 69(2); pp. 294-297).

Other than that single article, all information I am able to find describes lizards' needs for UVB but not snakes, and most experts say that nocturnal and burrowing snakes do not need UVB.

In sum, I am confirming what Aaron_S and totheend are saying about the UVB light being useless for your sand boa.

I could find no research providing any information about snakes' vitamin D requirements. With the years of experience that snake breeders have showing that feeding whole prey items provides adequate nutrition for snakes, I am inclined to agree you don't need to worry about vitamin D supplementation, too. However, I don't suppose it will hurt him to give the supplement, either.

I also agree that changing to aspen shavings will be fine. Your boa is not really going to care; he has no sentimental attachment to the walnut shell. He may take a few days to adjust, but after that, he'll be fine with the shavings, as he will be able to burrow in them just fine.

I am glad that you got him to a vet so that the problem with the eye is now resolved. YAY! Good luck!

[BP_okay]

Oh my goodness! Thank you guys for your great responses and info. He had a beautiful shed (all in 1 piece), except for the 1/2 inch or so on his head. I think this happened b/c when the vets were dealing w/ him, he was squirming around and broke some shed at that point. Last night he worked so hard, for about 30 minutes to loosen the remainder around his head, and it seemed ready to come off. Of course, he went under and I haven't seen him since. Hopefully tonight he'll come out and I 'll find the shed is gone, eyecaps and all. Then, I'll feed him tomorrow(live).

I have heard that impaction isn't really a big deal with the walnut shells, b/c if they do get a little in their system, it won't impact them. Of course, I could and am probably totally wrong, as I such a newbie to all of this. My only concern with switching is that I think it really helps him with his shed, b/c of their coarseness. After watching him last night, I noticed he didn't use the rock to help with his shed. He used the sides of the tank, and moved back and forth through his substrate. Of course, my corn shed beautifully with paper towel as a substrate and a nice litte rough rock, so it seems that theory could be wrong.

Albeit, I really do think switching over to aspen bedding is a great idea, and it certainly is alot cheaper(especially in quanity)!

Re: the UVA/UVB, I was a bit hesitant and seemed to agree with you all. I think it seems completely pointless and an unnecessary expense.

Sandy, thank you so much for doing your research. You are such a sweet gal. It's so nice to have so many awesome people on here that care.

One last thing the vet told me that I am wondering about is soaking. She told me after he eats/digests, to soak him once a day in 80 degree water for 10 minutes for a week. After that, soak him once a week, for maintenance. She said that this will help him to stay hydrated. It sounds like it will only stress him out, after the last week. What do you guys think?

Thank again for being there and all of your great advice,

Traci :)

[BP_okay]

Oops, one more thing. I think the feeding live thing is fine, and will continue, but I am really trying to find a store here in my area that supplies mite free healthy mice. Petco/Petsmart just does not strike me as the best source. I just want to avoid any problems in the future. I can't raise them myself, due to mdh's allergies, and lack of space. Also the condo assoc. would die and fine us up the you know what. Even having the snakes is risky.

[Chu'Wuti]

Traci, check with the local herp society in your area--they may know a local breeder who will cut you a deal and be less expensive than the pet store. Ask around with high schoolers, too--it's amazing what they know!

The mice won't carry snake mites, if that's your worry. You do want them to be free of fleas, those, as well as other diseases. If you ask to see their breeding set-up and it looks clean and all the mice/rats look & act healthy, that's a good sign.

Good luck!

[Will0W783]

I wouldn't worry about following a soaking schedule, per se- it could do more harm than good. Any snake should have access to a water dish large enough to soak in, and they will use it as they need to. There are some exceptions to this rule- I have a male ball and a female dwarf retic that will NOT soak no matter how deep in shed they are. If you are concerned about him being too dry during shed, soak him two to three times a week when you notice him getting cloudy. Sand boas are adapted to drier climates- too much soaking will almost definitely result in a respiratory infection. Your vet should have known this- I'd seriously consider a different vet- he doesn't sound like he knows even the basics of snakes. If you are concerned, soak him a few times during shed, but not as a "maintenance" practice. I have never soaked my sand boa and he sheds in one nice clean piece every time. I'm so glad that his eye problem resolved with the shed- it can be scary when one of your babies has a problem. Best of luck with him- you should post more pictures!

[BP_okay]

Well, as I anticpated, most of the shed on his head came off last night, after soaking him for 10 min.(just b/c of his shed, not maintenance). I helped get most of it off, except for that left eyecap. I know he's really hungry, b/c the vet said that he was really sniffing her shirt, as she had previously treated a rat during the day. I just think that b/c of the walnut shell piece stuck in his eye, he's avoiding rubbing it on anything, b/c it hurts. Now he has one good eye again, and one eyecap. Now back to the age old question - to feed or not to feed. He seems really hungry, but I was instructed by the vet if the eyecap doesn't come off to apply neosporin twice a day and put him soft substrate like carefresh/ripped up newspaper, so the walnut shell would not stick to it. Based on ya'll's opinions that she was off on so many things, does that seem like a plausible thing to do, or cause alot of stress. He's seems quite stressed from last night's events.

Feed or deal with eye cap? What do you all think? I am considering giving him a mouse tonight - 15 minutes in the tank, with supervison, of course.

Sandy - that's great advice, re: the mice. I'll ask the Chicago herp society about mice, and see what I can find :)

[Will0W783]

You should be able to do both, but be careful. I don't know how handleable your snake is. You could always feed tonight, and put the ointment on tomorrow, that kind of thing. My bp had a retained eyecap that got quite nasty, but he is good enough that I was able to keep him on feed and take care of the ointment on his eye twice a day.

[BP_okay]

Sounds like a good idea Willow. My guy is small and as gentle as can be. The only agression he has every shown is when he musked the vet, as they were discovering the piece of walnut shell under his eye - I am so sad that he's in pain :(

Btw, how long did it take to get the eye cap to come off with the twice a day method. Did you use a q-tip to apply it or did you use your finger?


Thanks so much for all your help,
Traci

[BP_okay]

Good news!'just as an update, last night he struck within in 30 seconds(he was a hungry snake!). Now on to that eyecap, and my baby will be on the road to recovery. Thanks for everyone's help and have a great Sunday :)

Traci

[Will0W783]

I squirted a little strip on and very very gently rubbed it in with my finger- I tried the q-tips but they seemed to stick to the eye as well- icky little cotton fibers. They're much better for scratching ears, or sticking in ears, nostrils, and mouth, and making faces at my fiance....
But I digress...
It honestly was hell to get Saleen's eyecap off. He had about 4 stuck on and the top two had gotten dried out and wrinkled and folded back on themselves. Poor guy was rubbing his face all over the cage- I thought he had torn open his eye as it was bleeding for a while. I had him on antibiotic ointment twice a day for 2 weeks, then antibiotic once a day and Pura-lube once a day for 2 weeks, then just Pura-lube once a day. Three vet bills and 2 months later, he shed and it all came off in the skin. Lesson learned- never ever let the humidity get too low with a BP, or other temperate/tropical snake. The sand boas are different- they require far less humidity. But IMHO, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it took until his next shed for him to get the crap out of his eye. Your main concern is to keep it clean and not infected and let him heal on his own.

[BP_okay]

Oh my goodness! What an ordeal for you and Saleen! I am glad his eye cap finally shed, but how awful. I would have been completely freaking out if my Sand boa started bleeding. But like you said, it was certainly a learning experience.

Even tonight, my experiences are similar to yours. I think I am just wishing more than anything that it comes off with the oinment, but I think that is optimistic. Tonight I took his walnut substrate out and put in carefresh(since I had it on hand and it he could burrow in it), did the ointment thing(and like you, I am definitely going w/ the finger route instead of the q-tip in the morning-icky cotton pieces). It is certainly taking him a while to get use to the carefresh, as I think he is used to the weight of the walnut and the carefresh is so light. I put in about 3-4 inches so he'd feel secure. Right now, he's going crazy trying to get used to his new substrate and rubbing his face all over the tank. Is he honestly working at shedding that eyecap, b/c like you said, it usually comes off w/ the next shed and he hasn't tried that hard in the past with retained eyecaps? It seems like to me, he's trying to get the ointment off b/c it is this annoying goop on his face, and he has never experienced it before.

Oh well, who knows what they are thinking in those cute little heads of thier's
Wish me luck and thanks for the advice,

Traci :)

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, Traci--congrats on getting him to eat! You must feel greatly relieved! Now all you have to do is get the eyecap off and your snake will be back to normal!

[Will0W783]

He is probably trying to get rid of the ointment. Saleen did that too at first, but after a week or so of being wrestled down and having it squirted on twice a day he gave up and let it alone. Be patient- it could take a while. I had to wait two months of feeling guilty and like I was a bad snake mommy.

[citysnakes]

I have a male ball and a female dwarf retic that will NOT soak no matter how deep in shed they are. If you are concerned about him being too dry during shed, soak him two to three times a week when you notice him getting cloudy.

If you are concerned, soak him a few times during shed, but not as a "maintenance" practice.

i'd like to comment on the fact that you have suggested to soak a snake while in shed to "help" with the process.

to keep it simple, when snakes start a shed cycle a liquid barrier filled with enzymes forms in between the new and the old skin. this is why your snake turns "blue" or "opaque". excessive damp or wet conditions may compromise this barrier and actually have negative effects on the shedding process as well as possible risk for skin problems. there is no need to soak a snake while it is in shed for this reason and as well as the fact that we are all responsible keepers providing optimal care for our snakes, i assume the proper environmental conditions are provided.

when the heat and humidity (along with other factors) are where they are supposed to be and your animal is healthy and not stressed, it will (under normal circumstances) shed, on its own, without problems. considering snakes during a shed cycle are at their most vulnerable point so they stress out more readily and may act more agressive, it is best to leave it alone and let it shed on its own. this added stress due to unnecessary handling during a shed cycle may also have negative effects on the outcome. the snake doesnt need any physical help to eventually shed. all you as the keeper need to do is provide the proper conditions and allow the snake to shed on its own when its ready. if it doesnt shed properly then obviously your husbandry is off and needs some correcting and it is at this time when a keeper's intervention of soaking the snake is an effective method of assistance.

for these reasons i would have to say that the best assistance during a snakes shed cycle is keeping the environment stable and if you must do something else, then, slightly bump the humidity up.

other than that just leave the snake alone. it will shed on its own without the keepers physical assistance.

hope this helps some...

[BP_okay]

Thanks Sandy! Yeah, I am soooo relieved. His aim was really spot on - so proud!

Willow, he has definitely stopped trying to rub off the ointment. He's such a calm little guy. He actually didn't try to get it off w/ the next application. He just burrows right after, and goes back to sleep. I think the patience is the worst thing. I just want that darned thing to come off his eye. I somehow think this snake mommy thing is preparing us for motherhood in a small way. We know it annoys them, we don't want to annoy them, but it is also best for them. :)

Citysnakes, very interesting info on the soaking. I actually wonder a snake can be slightly assisted in being rehydrated by soaking. The vet told me since the temps had gotten too high for a little while he could have gotten slightly dehydrated(also he had not eaten for 6 weeks-from what I understand, not too uncommon for an adult male sand boa. She recommended this soaking schedule, which Willow suggest could cause some problems. I mean, he's a desert snake, why would anyone think soaking him 2 times a week be necessary. He really does not have any humidity requirements, except that they not get too high. I have read that can cause skin probs and blister, etc. What is your opinion on this?

Thanks guys,

Traci :)

[citysnakes]

he's a desert snake, why would anyone think soaking him 2 times a week be necessary. He really does not have any humidity requirements, except that they not get too high. I have read that can cause skin probs and blister, etc. What is your opinion on this?


humidity requirements are most likely not the issue in this case and considering sand boas drink little but also get moisture from their prey, which yours was unable too do for for a while, possibly under the circumstances a soaking twice a week as a treatment regimen for the duration of whatever the problem may be is necessary and thats why the vet recommended it.

a few soakings shouldnt hurt a dehydrated sand boa and i agree that it will assist with hydration. a dehydrated snake most likely will not shed properly and if the vet diagnosed your sand boa as slightly dehydrated then maybe she felt that the hydration caused by the soaking will help remedy the problem and/or shedding issue.

[BP_okay]

Thanks for your input. I did continue with the soaking schedule, but now that he has eaten, and has supposedly been rehydrated, via a hydration shot at the herp vet and the soakings, I wonder if her recommendation to soak him once a week as part of his regular care regimen makes sense? Also, he shed better than he ever has, once nice long piece, except for a little on the head, which the soaking helped him to finish.

Thanks for all your info, as it helps tremendously,

Traci :)

[frogsnbugs]

Your temps etc. might be off, but if your ksb is having so many problems shedding, get a pillow case, put it in warm water, wring out and then put the snake inside, tie up the pillow case with a knot at the top, and let it roll around in there for awhile ( not hours or anything) but an hour or a little more wouldn't hurt as long as it's in a warm room. The shed should come off! Lots of people do that with their snakes that are having trouble shedding. Give it a try the next time he starts to shed. I wouldn't soak him n the tub as they are desert snakes! He could end up with a respitory infection.