Please look!!!!!! Need help!!!!

[DeesBalls]

OK now so i got your attention lol i just want to show you a pic of my BP striking and a pic or 2 i just want to know if everything looks good. if i should go a bigger mouse, 2 of these? just pretty much i want to know if everything is going good, thanks!

[DeesBalls]

video...

eleanoreeatingincage.flv video by dereck_gilliland - Photobucket (http://s697.photobucket.com/albums/vv340/dereck_gilliland/?action=view&current=eleanoreeatingincage.flv)

picture( do all ball pythons do this? )

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv340/dereck_gilliland/thisnormal.jpg


sorry to make you guys click anoter link, but i dont know how to put a video right on here like the pic...

[Kmef07]

so your snake knows what it means when the box is rattled huh?

[Kmef07]

oh by the way everything does look good and i think the size is ok. you could switch to a rat of the same size or a little bigger though and it would be healthier for your snake and you could go longer in between feedings. like a day or two longer. rats are more nutritious for snakes im told.

[DeesBalls]

huh, right now, i feed him 1 mouse that size a week... i may try a small rat next time... and yes he knowws when the box is rattleing, its time to eat!!!



*for everyone*
BTW I DONT ALWAYS FEED IN HOUSING CAGE... I JUST DID THIS THING BC IM MOVING AND THE OTHER TANKS IS AT NEW PLACE...

[Will0W783]

How big is he? My 4' male ball ate 2 adult mice a week until I switched him to rat pups of the same size. Snakes like the taste of mice more but they are less nutritious. Basically from what I've read mice are like snake "candy" but rats are the "meat and potatoes". So if you can switch a snake over to rats better to do it early because they can and often do get "addicted" to mice and then will refuse rats when they outgrow mice. And 1 rodent = 1 poop, so if you feed 3 mice = 3 poops vs. 1 adult rat = 1 larger poop. At least that is what I've seen with my snakes- I could be wrong with the turd numbers, so if anyone knows different feel free to call me out on it.

[citysnakes]

Snakes like the taste of mice more but they are less nutritious. .

rats are more nutritious for snakes im told.

dont believe everything you hear...

[Will0W783]

Why do they become hooked on mice and refuse rats after a while of being fed mice?

[Kmef07]

It's true. Rats are more heavily boned and also have more meat to them. and rat pups that aren't weaned yet and are still on mother's milk are very nutritious over mice because rats have a much better milk and the snake then in turn ingests that.

[Will0W783]

Cool. Thanks Kyle!

[DeesBalls]

so maybe i should try a small rat pup, i would say that my snake is about 12-15 inches long.. ( thats an estimate )

[Chu'Wuti]

Kyle, you should search for the other thread where we discussed this before. I have the original research done on nutrition of prey animals, and it is not at all clear that rats are "more" nutritious than mice. We have provided a link to the research on this website multiple times.

The fact is that no one has done or published any actual research on what different snake species need for optimal growth, development, and health. THAT would be important information that would enable us to determine which prey animals would promote that level of growth/development/health. But neither I--with access to my university electronic search engines and libraries and publications all over the world--nor anyone else on this forum or others I have been on has been able to find THAT information yet, and several of us did extensive literature research trying to find that information.

Some people claim that "rats are better because the snakes grow faster and bigger on them." Hmmm . . . by that claim, eating hamburgers every day would be better for humans because we grow faster and bigger on them! That is a fallacious argument.

The fact is that faster is not necessarily better; it actually could be worse in terms of longevity and long-term health.

In addition, my area of research includes mammalian and artificial milks and their different nutritional values. Rat milk is NOT "better" than mouse milk; it is simply different. Rat milk is best for baby rats. Mouse milk is best for baby mice.

Neither rat milk nor mouse milk is of any special nutritional value to snakes. Snakes did not evolve on mammalian milk.

Snakes might get some calcium from the milk---IF they actually ingested it! But they don't, and even if they did, it's very possible that it could be chemically bound with other components in milk in a way that the snake is unable to digest it and utilize the calcium or other nutritional components.

In reality, ingesting a rat pup or mouse pup does NOT give the snake any milk at all, as the rat & mice babies convert their mother's milk--as do nearly ALL mammalian babies (except for rabbits & a few others)--very quickly to bone, muscle, energy, etc. That's all the snake gets, not any milk. Hence, rat pups that aren't yet weaned are NOT necessarily any better than mice that are weaned.

When you find the charts we posted, read them carefully. Notice that in some cases, mice have more of some element, rats have more of another. The measurements include energy values, protein, trace elements . . .

Without knowing what levels of protein, fat, calcium, copper, iron, zinc, etc. a particular snake actually NEEDS, we cannot KNOW for sure which levels of copper or iron or protein etc. are appropriate.

We merely guess, and many of those guesses are built solely on what various breeders and keepers have seen based on their own perceptions of how they want their snakes to grow. If someone believes forcing the snake to grow really fast so it reaches maturity more quickly (often so they can breed it sooner even if that is bad for the snake in the long run), then they will want to feed their snakes rats.

Those personal opinions and beliefs are what get into the claims you see that "rats are better than mice," but so far they have not been backed up by any solid evidence from actual research. (At least not that I was able to find when I searched for it end of 2008--if you find some, I would LOVE a copy!)

IMHO, we really need the research on the snakes. Hopefully someday someone will do it.

Edit: Now I'm going to get flamed . . . :)

[Kmef07]

HAHA why would you get flamed?????

but im talking about when you can see the white milk in a rat or mouse pup. and rat milk does have higher levels of nutrients in it than mouse milk. I believe i have a web page saved at home on my computer (right now im at work) that my breeder friend sent to me with all the proof needed about that. now does that do anything for our snakes?? no one really knows but it is a good guess that it does. it is widely accepted, by the people around here that deal with reptiles, that if you were to feed a snake a rat that is the same size a mouse then the snake would get more calories from the rat than the mouse of the same size. The way it has been explained to me is that rat meat is like a protien bar and mouse meat is like a candy bar. simular in size but the rat holds a lot more calories and nutrients in the same package. is the research scientific, no, but does it make sense, yes. The breeder friend i have here took a bunch of cbb baby balls a couple years ago and started 6 on mice and 6 on rats from the time they were born. they were from the same clutch. he breeds the mice and rats and feeds them the same food and tried to weigh each one to get them all the same weight. He said that the snakes that he fed rats to grew faster and appeared healthier than the ones that he fed mice to. again not scientific but a good way to test it out and be able to make a pretty good informed decision.

Hmmm . . . by that claim, eating hamburgers every day would be better for humans because we grow faster and bigger on them! That is a fallacious argument.

Yes you choose to compare to something that is not healthy. But lets use the same idea and instead of hamburgers put in something with a ton of nutritional value like protien shakes or carb loading or something that is using healthy means to get bulkier. I had friends in high school that played baseball with me and they decided senior year they wanted to put on 20 pounds before the start of the season. so they carb loaded, and instead of lunch drank protein shakes and ate protein bars for snakes. also they lifted at the gym eveyday. they didn't make the 20 pound mark but did manage to put on about 15 pounds each in the month or so they did this. I didn't participate because im a pitcher and we dont' need to get bulky to throw hard but i do not believe that this will in any way affect them long term. If they were to get fat that is a different thing entirely. but i don't feed my snake ratss for a get big quick thing. i feed it rats because it seems to be healthier based on the knowledge i have gathered from different breeders in this area. I will also throw this in that I would feed my snake once every 5-7 days if i were feeding mice but since i feed rats i feed every 7-10 days.

again i could be completely wrong and without any scientific research on the subject we might never know. but "thats my story and im stickin to it". lol (country music fans will get that)

[Kmef07]

damn i tried to write more than here and i was really close!!

[citysnakes]

Sandy, thank you for that great post! no chance im getting into another one of these...haha

[citysnakes]

Kmef07, if your buddies put on 15 pounds in a month, the weight was definitely not muscle and was more likely a whole lot of water weight and fat. protein and carb loading with shakes and weight gainers is not necessarily healthy and if you want to put on quality weight then quality calories is where it will come from. hamburgers can be healthy(but usually aren't) and have a ton of nutritional value and in Sandy's example hamburgers could be replaced with any other highly caloric food. higher calories and a faster rate of growth do not necessarily mean better or healthier. if we do not know the nutritional requirement then nothing can be said to be better or more nutritious especially based only on "common sense" reasoning. if the animal is eating and is healthy then what, how and when you are feeding it is fine. a feeding schedule based on type prey is a little backward as opposed to a feeding schedule based on the animal that you are feeding.


but why take my word for it? i think i just posted:

dont believe everything you hear...

i would also like to add, "or read", at the end of that quote.

[Kmef07]

My point was that faster growing is not bad either. and it is totally possible to put on that much good muscle in a month or so. yes a lot will be water weight but a lot is muscle too. and i was saying my feeding schedule if i was using a mouse would be more frequent because my snake when i first got it and all i had was a mouse ate it and then a couple days later was out and about the tank wanting more food. next i fed a rat of the same size and it was content with not eating for a couple days longer. probably just a growth spurt but still when my snake gets older it will get food less probably no matter what it eats.

but sandy is 100% right i dont think we will ever know 100% what is right and what is wrong on this matter without some research done on it. it's like the global warming debate no one really knows what the hell is going on with it lol.

[Kmef07]

haha and sorry to argue julian and sandy but i just love to debate topics. it is harder over the internet but in real life im really good at it lol.

[citysnakes]

and it is totally possible to put on that much good muscle in a month or so. yes a lot will be water weight but a lot is muscle too.

hehe...buddy, not even professional body builders that live at the gym, eat to the exact calorie and pump themselves with drugs can put on 15 pounds of muscle in a month.

[Chu'Wuti]

it is widely accepted, by the people around here that deal with reptiles, that if you were to feed a snake a rat that is the same size a mouse then the snake would get more calories from the rat than the mouse of the same size. The way it has been explained to me is that rat meat is like a protien bar and mouse meat is like a candy bar. simular in size but the rat holds a lot more calories and nutrients in the same package.

Incorrect. Comparing similar-sized animals, the protein content is similar, the crude fat is actually higher in the rat, and the energy content overall is very similar in a mouse and a rat of the same size. The fat, IMHO, would be the "candy bar" part of the meal, so that nice fatty rat would be the candy bar. As I explained previously, it is UNknown whether the contents of the trace minerals, which differ by species, are better in the rats or the mice, because the studies have not been done on the snakes.

is the research scientific, no, but does it make sense, yes. No. Not if you actually read the scientific research.

He said that the snakes that he fed rats to grew faster and appeared healthier than the ones that he fed mice to.

As I said before, growing faster is not necessarily healthy. How did he assess the differences in health--how did the rat-fed snakes look "healthier" to him? I need some scientific research that provides evidence of better health, such as better circulatory system, less body fat, increased longevity, etc.

rat milk does have higher levels of nutrients in it than mouse milk. That's b***sh*t. I have no idea where you got that information, but part of my research is on milk, and it is simply not true.

my breeder friend sent to me with all the proof needed about that "Proof"? I go by scientific research for my evidence (proof). Show me the scientific research to support your claim. I'll be glad to be educated.

"thats my story and im stickin to it" Yep, we've met several others like you. I'm with Julian--we've "been here, done this." This is my last post on this topic, too.

For those who are actually interested in learning more about this, here is a link (yet again) to the only scientific research I have been able to find about the prey animals:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

You have no idea how much I would like to find some good research about the snakes' actual dietary needs for optimum growth, development, and health.

[siz]

Thanks for the links Sandy, I really find this topic very engaging - it's so unfortunate we don't yet have REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to support all these 'theorys'.

[Will0W783]

Hopefullly somebody someday soon will do the research and get the info out there.

[carciady]

why dont you just look at what the same size snake would eat in the wild lol.

[carciady]

nice snake by the way

[gonesnakee]

Off/On topic but, you know what I hate?
Is these people that have these BS thread titles that waste my time.
I could care less about looking at some stupid BP pics etc. when the only reason I bothered to even look at this crap was to see if I could help someone who might actualy need it. As i type this crap someone else that realy requires my time & effort will not be receiving it now THX Mark

[citysnakes]

Thanks for the links Sandy, I really find this topic very engaging - it's so unfortunate we don't yet have REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to support all these 'theorys'.

well research has been done on reptile nutrition so its only a matter of trying to dig up whats out there. in this case we do not know the nutritional requirements for optimal health in ball pythons.

since ball pythons are ectothermic, their metabolic rates will be determined by the temperature of their environment and their behaviour within the environment. also we would need to consider the animals age and weight and possibly sex, as in humans for example, metabolic rates vary between sexes.

we would also need to know the animals resting metabolic rate at different temperatures or possibly determine a standard resting metabolic rate at a certain temperature so that we can calculate required energy for a specific animal while at rest.

i guess we then add average behavioural energy consumption at an average temperature range(because the animals metabolic rate will increase or decrease depending on higher or lower temperatures), to our standard resting metabolic rate and we should end up with a total daily(or weekly) caloric expenditure.

based on the energy output of the specific animal we can then determine what size, amount and type of prey would meet these caloric needs but i guess we still would need to determine the macros for this animal. ball pythons are true carnivores so i would assume that the majority of their calories would come from proteins and fats with minimal amounts of carbohydrates.

even after we figure out all these factors(and most likely even more that i have missed) any prey item, be it mouse or rat, that meets the nutritional requirements will do.

so this whole rant was pointless and most likely even wrong as little to no research has been done by me on this issue. i was merely thinking about the possibility and i guess i got carried away while typing.


anyways,

dont believe everything you hear...

or read...

[citysnakes]

oh, and im going to have to agree with mark about this thread's title. ;)

[gonesnakee]

oh, and im going to have to agree with mark about this thread's title. ;)

I was pretty gouchy earlier :o LOL but it still shouldn't be abused, but used if one actually really needs help ASAP.
You don't scream FIRE or RAPE etc. just to get Attn right? ;) Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

why dont you just look at what the same size snake would eat in the wild lol. Partly because in some cases that info hasn't been published, and in many cases we simply cannot replicate that diet because we don't have those prey items available.

And I also agree with Mark about this thread's title. In fact, after coming to see if I could help with whatever the problem was, I almost left without posting at all. If I hadn't read the post with incorrect nutrition information, I would have never posted here.

If you want us to look at your pics, that's fine--I love looking at pics.

it still shouldn't be abused, but used if one actually really needs help ASAP.

[gonesnakee]

As for prey in the wild snakes will eat meals that are way too big or far too small all the time. They do not pick & choose prey but are pretty much complete opportunists & take what they can get. They do not eat the prefect size meal every 5-7 days in the wild. Quite often they get no meals for weeks or even months & sometimes they get a huge meal they can barely take & keep down & may not require another for upwards of a year. Comparing anything we do meal wise in captivity to waht they will take in the wild is like Apples & Oranges kinda deal. There are no finicky feeders in the wild either, well not for long anyway ;) Mark

[carciady]

Sorry for the stupid comment, I was not thinking lol. I hope you all have a great day.

[DeesBalls]

Off/On topic but, you know what I hate?
Is these people that have these BS thread titles that waste my time.
I could care less about looking at some stupid BP pics etc. when the only reason I bothered to even look at this crap was to see if I could help someone who might actualy need it. As i type this crap someone else that realy requires my time & effort will not be receiving it now THX Mark

i dont check this thread alot but should i be offended by this? i did need help and i wanted to make sure everything was fine w/ my ball. and if you are being rude, im sure some one else would of helped... if you wernt being rude... then well nevermind...

[gonesnakee]

First post in thread:
OK now so i got your attention lol i just want to show you a pic of my BP striking and a pic or 2 i just want to know if everything looks good. if i should go a bigger mouse, 2 of these? just pretty much i want to know if everything is going good, thanks!

This is NOT an emergency this is a simple question & should have been addressed as such. Nuff Said, Mark

[DeesBalls]

First post in thread:


This is NOT an emergency this is a simple question & should have been addressed as such. Nuff Said, Mark

well see maybe for me it was an emergency... when i want to know something, i want to know right away, not 20 min. so i made a title that will get attention so i can get my answer... thats it, i dont see why your getting all upset about this.

[gonesnakee]

Some folks just don't get it Nuff Said Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

i dont see why your getting all upset about this.

Ever hear of the little boy who cried wolf?

Some folks just don't get it

Yep, and probably never will.

[DeesBalls]

ok man, whatever....

[Kmef07]

well dont' think we will see him back for a while...