Burmase Feeding Problem....(2 months havent eaten)

[banto]

Hi everyone,
I have a Burmese Python which I call him Bimba. Well to be honest I am a new Burmese owner. Before I used to have Ball python but when I had to move to China I have to give it to a friend. so I would be asking for some advices from you guys.
I know there are lots of posts like mine about the feeding problems and I nearly read them all and kind of applied them. but my problem is still going on. so help please....
Here is the deal, I bought my Bimba on 3th of Feb. and I saw him being fed in front of me on 2th of Feb, the owner told me that he was feeding It with alive mouse. well it seemed like no problem. I used to feed my Ball python time to time with the alive ones but mostly prefer frozen(or stunned ones). whatever, I took him back to my place and set his place and let him get used for a week. Cleaned his cage when he had a stool.
Next week I tried to feed him with dwarf hamster. he was not interested.
During that time he kind of burned his skin while he tried to climb to the lamp (silly me I didn’t cover the lamp that time. But it is all covered now.) then the next week his eyes get milky and couple of days later changed the skin.
well since that time I am trying to feed my Bimba with any way that I can, but nothing....
he is not interested at all. I tried frozen, stunned, alive, different sizes whatever I can think of but nothing nothing and nothing... he is not interested at all. I can only find Hamsters around my area (it is a small Chinese city and hard to find pet shops, and the pet shop I bought it from is in a really far city).
so what should I do. I am out of ideas. I am thinking maybe he is not happy in his cage. I kind of used a fish aquarium and modified to a lizard cage in the best way I can.(50cmx30cmx20cm) I keep the temperature and humidity close to perfect.
he is right now like 100-110cm. I try to not handle him so much but time to time I do and he seems pretty health but he is getting really skinny recently.
I am open to any advices, and please also remember that I am in a small Chinese city so my recourses are limited. I really kind of get attached to Bimba just in 2 months and I want him to be a big and healthy Burmese Python.
I am sorry for this long post but I wanted to make everything clear for you guys so can get better advises for my case. I will be waiting for your quick replies
Thanks a lot
BANTO

[Chu'Wuti]

I posted a link to a care sheet in your intro post, so I'll let that stay there. Some questions:

Has the burn healed?
Do you have the heat lamp inside the enclosure?
Do you have an under the tank heater (UTH)? He will need belly heat for proper digestion.
Do you have the temperature gradient recommended in the care sheet?
What about water and hides?

Regarding the latter, the enclosure you have is very small for a Burmese that's around 100 cm. He needs at least a 55-gallon enclosure -- a minimum of 30cm x 60 cm x 120 cm, and that'll probably be good only for a year. Will you be able to get a larger enclosure for him soon?

Dwarf hamsters are probably not what he'll want to eat; they may be too small.. I'm guessing he probably should be eating full-sized rats, 100 grams in weight or more. Hopefully someone who has more experience with Burms will give more info on this. But you've got a snake that is going to need to be eating full-sized rats very soon if not immediately, and then rabbits.

In the U.S., we can order frozen prey items to be shipped to us in bulk, which saves money. We keep them in a freezer. I don't know what resources of that nature you have there. I know in some areas of China, people don't have washers, dryers, freezers, but in other areas people do. You may have to begin breeding your own rats to feed this guy.

Hang in there--we'll help you as much as we can!

[banto]

Thanks for the quick reply, and let me answer those questions....
Has the burn healed?
It healed pretty well, i am not trying to handle him so much but time to time i check it and now it is ok.
Do you have the heat lamp inside the enclosure?
Unfortunately my Lamp is in the enclosure. as i said i modified a fish aquarium and that was the best i could do. but now the lamp is covers and i guess he already learned not to touch it...
Do you have an under the tank heater (UTH)?
yea i do have a UTH but i only use it when i need to shut down the lamp. ir it gets so hot inside. so during some nights i will be on but mostly i keep it off because the temperature is pretty still.
Do you have the temperature gradient recommended in the care sheet?
no i dont have one, and i dont think that i can find it easily in here.
What about water and hides?
the there is a hide place in the warm side and he spends most of his time around there, over it or in it. the water tank: he is really not interested in it. i changed the places of the tank and the hiding place but still he enjoys the hiding place and not the water. only while he was shedding he was in the water a lot and then not interested

i know that the cage is o problem right now and i am working on it. i am going to make a new one. i wanted to have a half wooden and half glass cage but i am really not that talented with the tools and no one in here that i know can handle it. so i am going for a whole glass thing. i am thinking of 120x60x50cm is that ok? and what shuold be the thickness of the glass for optimum.

The think is i tried many kinds of size, dwarf hamster, Syrian hamster, small guinea pig, small rabbit. but no interest at all. i cant find any Rat in here, that is the problem. but the Syrian hamsters that i have now should be ok for now. they are like 10cm size.

i cant find frozen prey in here so i have to make my owns, so i have been killing and freezing them. but i also tried alive(while i am watching) and also stunned ones. Nothing...

if he gets bigger i have good prey sources for him, guinea pigs, rabbits, small pigs chickens. so i dont think that big preys will be a problem and it is pretty cheap in here :) but first my Bimba needs to get a little bit bigger. i want to show you the pictures of him to u guys but, i dont have any clear ones and i dont wanna bother him...

[citysnakes]

what are the temperatures inside the tank?

also you should get the heat lamp out of the tank and place it on the top over a screen or wire lid.

[Kmef07]

First I want to say you bit off more than you can chew...

Now that's out of my system this is what I would do,

1. find out from the person you got if off of what they were feeding it and then feed the same thing.
2. Wait at least a week between offerings because you don't want to stress it out.
3. It is probably stressed due to being in a small cage.
4. you need two hides one on the hot side and one on the cool side, this is a minimum requirement. You don't want your snake to have to choose between security or proper temps. Your snake needs to be able to cool off.
5. Your snake will probably favor one hide over the other but that is ok.
6. Your snake might only use the water when it sheds. some species will only go to water once or twice a day to drink and then only go back if the humidity isn't high enough or it needs to cool down.
7. you need to have a warm/basking spot in your tank and then a cooler side that stays towards the low end of the recommended temp for the burms.
8. go get a thermostat to control the ambient air temp with both the heat lamp and the UTH. Like Chu mentioned the UTH is VERY BENIFICIAL for proper digestion.
9. if you can't get a thermostat then at the very least get a rheostat because they will let you turn down the temp of the heat lamp and the UTH so they won't have to be on full blast. It is basically a dimmer for your heating stuff.

Finally, if you can't do this or at least the bare minimum of this because of your resources then you shouldn't care for this snake. This should have all been done before you got your snake. It is stupid to take on a huge responsibility of an animal when you can't get the necessary supplies for it. I must say i can call it stupid because i did it too when i got my first snake I wasn't prepared and it caused a ton of problems. so good luck and try and do all the things chu and i recommeneded.

[banto]

Well thanks for the advices, they are all great advices which i will be doing one by one.

i kind of know that Burmese is a big responsability and maybe yes it was a big bite for me. but if u have seen the conditions of this snake in that Chinese pet shop(it is even hard to call it a pet shop) you would be thanking me instead of calling stupid. i may not be the best owner for him but i am sure my conditions are much more better than a box size of 20x10x10 cm in the back of the cupboard with out any water and no hide place. and god knows what is the temp/humid conditions.

whatever, i am willing to make my best for Bimba as much as i can. yesterday i went out and find a kind of nice place which can build a cage for me. so can i have some advices. and can i see your Burmese Cages to have some ideas? i am thinking of making a size of 150cmx60cmx60cm. i am hoping that size would be enough for him at least for 2 years. but still i need some pictures to show the designer. i am sure if i dont show him exactly what they should do, i will end up with some different design...

so can u guys share your cage pictures with me and let me have an idea...

Thanks a lot to all...

[Kmef07]

I wish i had a cage idea for you but go on to like google or something and search images and you will be able to get some ideas there for sure. and I said stupid cuz it is. I was stupid when i got my first bp cuz i was not prepared and it ended badly so just passing a little advice on. Didnt mean anything by it.

[Chu'Wuti]

if u have seen the conditions of this snake in that Chinese pet shop(it is even hard to call it a pet shop) you would be thanking me instead of calling stupid.

I know what you mean. though of course I didn't see what the conditions were for Bimba, I've seen some pretty horrible conditions ("What do you mean, that's not a good enough cage? It's just a snake, for ***** sake!") ugh. [shudder]

Hang in there. We have two concerns--one for the snake, which we recognize you are trying to save, and one for you, as the Burms can grow VERY large & be dangerous for their owners if not adequately housed--they are very strong & can break out of inadequate enclosures.

Here are some links for care & housing info:

Burmese Python Care (Python molurus bivittatus) (http://ezinearticles.com/?Burmese-Python-Care-(Python-molurus-bivittatus)&id=235644)
(has list of questions to consider in planning an enclosure)

Burmese Python Care Sheet and Information - WNYHS (http://www.wnyherp.org/care-sheets/snakes/burmese-python.php)

Quality Burmese Pythons and Peruvian Rainbow Boa's Care Sheets (http://www.qualityboids.com/burmese/index.htm)

Now, if you have to have an enclosure built, you might want to consider building large enough for the snake's adult size--at a bare minimum, half the adult length. Let's say it's going to get to about 360 cm or so long--you need an enclosure that's at minimum 183 cm long. Length is more important than height, and truthfully, longer than half the snake's length is better (that's why I keep stressing minimum). If you build too big to begin with, you can cut the size in half with a temporary insert until the snake needs more space. Some people devote a room to a Burm.

Your 150cmx60cmx60cm size is a good beginning and will probably do for at least a year, maybe two, though I won't guarantee it for two years, as once your guy begins eating, he is likely going to surprise you by how fast he grows.

Don't use wood for the enclosure unless you can get it completely sealed with nontoxic sealant. Wood is porous, so fecal matter etc. will penetrate the wood & rapidly build up a stink as well as an unhealthful environment.

If you use glass, it should be pretty thick, I think, but I can't find any info about this. I'm guessing maybe 3/8" plate glass would do for a young Burm?

Whatever you use, you DON'T want this snake escaping. Always remember that our snakes do not love us. We either provide prey or we are prey, nothing more. When a Burm grows to full length, people can easily be seen as potential prey.

As Julian said, you need to get the heat lamp out of the enclosure. Put it on top, but not directly on glass (the glass will shatter). Also, in your current enclosure, what kind of top do you have and how is it secured? Holding it down with bricks or rocks will not prevent a Burm from escaping if it decides it should. If you have a wire screen top, you need strong locking clips. Also, if the top is wire, you can put the heat lamp on it; if you have plastic or wood, that won't work.

Hang in there. I think that Bimba may not be willing to eat until it doesn't feel so crowded. Let him chill for a week before you try to feed him again; offering food every day can actually be stressful to the point that the snake won't eat.

[Kmef07]

one more thing to add chu. The burms along with some of the other giant species can actually break through a screen top. you should be fine if it is a good metal screen though.

and chu is right burms don't really care about getting up off the ground they are too big for that. build a cage that is long and wide but not very tall if you are looking to make it big and cheap.

[Chu'Wuti]

burms don't really care about getting up off the ground

but don't take that as a guarantee that he won't try to escape!

So for a strong top, what about 1/4" Mesh Welded Stainless T304 .047" Wire Dia.--heavy-duty welded wire? That's quite a bit heavier than the type of screen top that pet stores sell. One would have to buy a roll of it and cut to be larger than the cage top, then lock it down really well somehow . . .

I'm not much of a construction person, so I'm pretty lost here. Just throwing out ideas. I'll claim in my own defense that even bad ideas can get people thinking and help them generate good ideas. ;)

[Kmef07]

Home Depot has a screen that they sell but I don't remember what department and it is either iron or steel, but it was about 4 foot long and about 25-30 pounds and even with the size i couldn't get it to bend. that is really good stuff so it is out there but fastening it to a board would be tricky. you are better off with a custom cage to make the top out two boards and with a heavy duty screen sandwhiched between them

almost forgot...
with lots of wood glue between the two boards and also a couple steel plates on each side screwed into the boards to make them inseperable.

[banto]

Great News guys,

yesterday Bimba eat his meal. it was such a relief for me. i guess all he needed was a really quiet and lonely time. i moved his place to another room and nearly never bothered him. just changed the water day to day.

but Bimba’s action was little bit weird.
well i gave him a alive hamster, and this time he seemed like interested.(i was waiting on top of him with a stick in case of Hamster does anything) but the thing is, he seemed really kind of shy. he watched the hamster for couple of minutes, smelled him, followed him, touch him couple of times then he decided to attack and eat him. i was kind of worried if the hamster does anything.

i dont know but my old Ball python was never like that. after couple of seconds he saws the prey, he goes for it and Bamm.. it is quickly over. i will be trying frozen preys again for Bimba(or maybe stunned) because i dont want him to hurt himself because of the hamster.

Does it ever happened to you like this. the snake being so gentle to his prey and seemed like he is not sure what to do?

right now he is in a total rest. i kind of increased the temperature 1-2 degree let him digest well and also the turned on the ground warmer. he seems totally ok now. will let him rest till his new cage comes...

[Chu'Wuti]

Bimba wasn't being gentle, Banto. He was stalking his prey, sizing it up, and making sure he hit it correctly so it couldn't get away or injure him. Have you ever watched any documentaries about cheetahs or other cats sneaking up on their prey verrrrrry carefully? it's a slow process . . . . . . . . until the strike!

I'm so glad he ate for you--what a relief! I know that feeling. :)

And your reasoning about why he finally ate is probably right on target, Banto. Snakes are not social animals, so too much handling and activity can be very stressful for a snake. They need lots of quiet and to be left alone a lot.

BTW, lonely is being alone when you don't want to be alone--sad alone. Being alone when you want to be alone is what we Americans call "space" as in "I need some space today" = "I need to be left alone today." Apparently that's JUST what Bimba needed! ;)

Keep up the good work--providing some belly heat for digestion was a smart decision. Sounds like you're getting things figured out and Bimba is going to start growing!
What did you finally figure out for a new enclosure for Bimba?

[banto]

Well to tell the truth yea, i did watch documentaries, to be honest pretty much. and i totally know what you mean with stalking. but this was not like that. thats why i was kind of worried. it was poking the hamster couple of times, going under him （kind of licking him). thanks to god the hamster was not aggressive at all. but he seems like " hmmm, what the hell is this?"
As i said my ball python was not like this at all. i know all snakes has their own personalities but i felt kind of worried.
and thanks Chu, i am trying my best for Bimba. i really want him to feel comfortable.

here is another question that i can use your advise. i dont wanna feed him with alive hamsters alot (since it could be dangerous for him) but i am also kind of scared that he would again have a feeding problem. because all his life he had been fed with alive preys as the owner told me. and while i was trying to feed him with frozen ones i didnt care at all.
i am thinking of keeping the alive feeding for a while till he gets a regular feeding routine and then turning in to stunned and the frozen ones. i feel like he will get more comfortable with it. but still if u have any other advises i am willing to hear for it.

[Chu'Wuti]

OK, looking back at your first post, I see you stated that the first owner was feeding Bimba mice. So I think your analysis is correct--"What the hell is this?" indeed! It didn't smell "right" for food, but it acted like it could be food . . . so, after checking it out thoroughly, Bimba decided it was food! ;)

I cannot argue with your logic regarding feeding him live prey for awhile after you finally got him to eat. I know that feeling of worry about one's snake not eating . . .

Question: is one hamster about 10% of Bimba's body weight? He needs to be eating about 10% of his body weight (this is Mykee's rule of thumb for appropriate feeding--thanks, Mykee!).

If you don't have a scales to weigh Bimba and the prey items, watch Bimba for hunger signs. If Bimba begins hunting in less than a week--say 4 days--he's probably not getting quite enough for a good meal and may need two hamsters. However, this can only be a rough estimate, as Bimba may have his own opinion about how much to eat at one time! ;)

There are a couple of tricks you can try to get Bimba to change to pre-killed prey. One is to feed a live one and immediately follow it with a stunned or fresh-killed one while the snake's feeding instinct is still activated. This will only work if two hamsters are the right size for a good meal (or even a meal that is little small) for Bimba. If he needs only one hamster for a good meal, he won't take a second one.

Another trick is to scent the pre-killed prey properly. That means keeping some hamster bedding with droppings in it from the next live hamster you feed. Then thaw a frozen (F) prey item in the bedding so that it picks up scents that will suggest it is still alive. Also thaw (T) it right next to or on top of Bimba's cage so he will smell it thawing out. Thaw it thoroughly, then warm it in a plastic bag in warm water. Warm the head especially well with hot water to ensure a strong heat signature (mammals' heads are the hottest part of the body in life). Then try offering it to Bimba.

If that doesn't work, some people have had success feeding F/T prey by slitting the head open to expose blood & brains & give the prey a stronger scent signature. Not the most pleasant task, but if it works, it's worth it.

[Chu'Wuti]

A few more thoughts:

Use feeding tongs to offer the prey. Pick up the warmed prey item by a back leg and hold it in front of your snake. Twitch it just a little to attract your snake's attention, but don't poke him with it. Also, hold it a little to the side of his head rather than right in front of him.

Once you have the snake trained to take F/T, you can just thaw the prey item in a plastic bag in cool/lukewarm water. Then warm it, heat the head, and offer it.

Good luck!

[Snuggs]

Just one suggestion - I haven't seen whether or not you are 100% certain you have a male there. Female burmese go through a period of brumation, which can last a few months, in which they will not eat at all - even captive animals. We currently care for a 19.5' bumese, 15 years old, a female, who has every gone through brumation for between 3-6 months, regardless of cage temps.

[T.O-SK8TER]

Burms do not normally eat in the winter months, my burm does not eat from november to march.