Vivarium Upgrade Advice

[LoganCJF]

Hello! New to the forum. Looking for some advice from you guys please.

I have had a corn snake now for about six years. For those six years she's remained in the same vivarium setup. The vivarium is 3ft (W) x 1.5ft (H) x 1.5ft (D). When I bought this vivarium I was told by the shop keeper that it would suffice for the snakes lifetime. I pretty much took them on their word, as I have done with regards to the setup.

I currently have a thermostat controlled light for the heat source at one end of the vivarium. Its always on, dimming when its reached temperature. I have shelter at this end and at the cold end. Again this was the ideal setup recommended by the shop keeper at the time.

I've never had reason to not take their word for it, but after six years of owning a corn snake, I've wondered why she never roams her enclosure except for when food is offered. She spends 90% of her time coiled up in her hot end shelter. I rarely see her unless I'm holding her myself.

I've asked around in the past but most, including the shop keeper basically say its normal and to just rearrange the vivarium regularly.

Didn't seem to make much difference to be honest.

Anyway, by chance a friend was moving out of home and had a vivarium he used to keep a lizard in that passed away years ago. He was going to get rid of the vivarium, so I said I'd take it off his hands with the intention of using it to upgrade my corn snake vivarium. Here's a pic I just took:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1613/21022009083.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1613/21022009083.jpg)

The new vivarium is considerably larger! Its sized as follows 4.2ft (W) x 2ft (H) x 1.8ft (D). It came equipped with all his lizard gear which included:

- 'Zoo Med' 36" Reptisun 10.0 UVB flurouscent light
- some sort of caged cylinderical heating element attached to the interior rear wall
- basking spot light

Not bad for a freebie :)

Anyway, I have a few questions about converting this and using it as an upgrade for my corn snake.

First and foremost, am I correct in my assumption that this WILL NOT be TOO big a vivarium for my corn snake? I have read something about large vivariums being 'intimidating' but I suspect this is shop keep bull to have you buy several viv's as the snake ages...

I picked up a book and started reading about simulating day and night. This is something that I've never really done for my snake, and it got me thinking that for the last six years, it might explain why I've not seen her out and about much!

So my first question - is it a requirement? To simulate day and night? And secondly, what would be the best method?

Bearing in mind I have that flourescent tube, is the UVB flourescent tube I mention above of any use to a corn snake and can it be used along with a timer to simulate day and night say?

If this is not acceptable, should I look at installing two bulb holders and have them on day/night timers, as I have seen they stock bulbs that can be used to replicate day and night individually. Would this be acceptable?

Onto the next issue. Heat. As I say, currently the source of heat in the existing vivarium is a lamp inside a cage (to prevent burn).

For the new setup, should I go for some thermostat controlled heat mats instead?

The cylinder shaped heating tube I mentioned previously, will be coming out. It is quite large, taking up most of the back wall and obviously, knowing that corn snakes want a hot and cold end, that will be of no use to me.

If I go down the heat mat route, then I will probably remove the basking lamp from the new setup as well. I'm guessing there is no requirement for a basking lamp?

That I think, pretty much covers the questions I wanted to ask. Obviously I'll be kitting the viv out to make it interesting for my snake. And I do need to address some security issues on the rear wall (there is an opening about 2" high along the top rear wall that has some flimsy plastic removable grate - won't take long for an inquisitive snake to get through!).

I really want to give my snake a better life. As the more I have read recently, I'm not altogether sure what the shop keep told me and what I've adhered to the last six years might not have been the best method. That said she has remained a healthy snake.

I would really appreciate your answers to the above questions and indeed any further advice and opinions you have on the subject ;)

Thanks in advance! :D

[Smilts]

I prefer to simulate day and night I dont know that its required but I like it. On the heat I wouldnt use the caged heat tube thingy, I would go with belly heat meaning a heating pad setup or flexwatt though I wouldnt know how to set heat tape up in that cage. And its not to big IMO. Also I doubt enclosure size was your problem to start with. was the snake lethargic meaning stiil not very responsive when you got it out or did things in its tank, or when you got it out would it get active? My 6 year old corn Why unless she is in shed is very active and shes in a tub.

[Logan1981]

I prefer to simulate day and night I dont know that its required but I like it. On the heat I wouldnt use the caged heat tube thingy, I would go with belly heat meaning a heating pad setup or flexwatt though I wouldnt know how to set heat tape up in that cage. And its not to big IMO. Also I doubt enclosure size was your problem to start with. was the snake lethargic meaning stiil not very responsive when you got it out or did things in its tank, or when you got it out would it get active? My 6 year old corn Why unless she is in shed is very active and shes in a tub.

Hi thanks for your reply :)

When I handle her she's very active. She's in no way lethargic. She just tends to not be very mobile in the vivarium.

Can I ask how you simulate day and night please?

Thanks for your help :)

[Chu'Wuti]

Not bad for a freebie

Not bad at all!! I'm envious!

You can get a timer to regulate your lighting and heat pad (e.g., UTH--under tank heater) for day-night changes. My DH & I use a Zilla power center (the digital one) with two Zoo Med 500R thermostats. The power center is designed to allow you to pre-set the temps and hours for "day" and "night," then it does all the work for you.

Corn snakes do not need UV lighting. No snake does, though some lizards do. Your corn snake needs heat; belly heat is the best as it aids proper digestion. A UTH with substrate over it to prevent thermal burns on the snake is the best, as it provides belly heat.

I would only use a basking lamp if I could put it outside the enclosure. It would provide your snake with a 2nd option for heating, and they do seem to "enjoy" basking at times (as far as snakes can "enjoy" anything). But I would worry about the possibility of burns even with a caged light if it were inside the enclosure; maybe someone else has a different perspective on this.

All that being said, that new enclosure of yours is ideal for a larger snake--ever think about getting another kind of snake? :)

Have fun!

[Kmef07]

To address the night day cycle you want it to be 12 hours on and 12 hours off. I don't think anyone else mentioned that but i think everyone has given you great advice so run with it.

[Smilts]

Well like Chu said I use a timer for my lights they turn on around the time the sun comes up and turn off around the time it goes down. :)

[Logan1981]

Thanks guys, all taken on board, so much information and differing views!!

I've been busy today...

And this is what I've ended up with - for now!

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5471/22022009085i.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5471/22022009085i.jpg) http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3221/22022009087.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3221/22022009087.jpg) http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6135/22022009088.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6135/22022009088.jpg) http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6039/22022009084.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6039/22022009084.jpg)

Sorry for the poor mobile phone camera quality...

Because of the height of the viv, I went with bulbs. I bought a few different ones but currently I'm using a "Heat Glo" (red) bulb during the day (0600 to 1800) and a "Night Glo" (blue) bulb during the night (1800 to 0600). Both are on timers. Both are on thermostats. Daytime the thermostat is set to 30'C/86'F and at night time its set to 24'C/75'F. As I've not seen exactly what temperatures reach to at these settings, I'll be adjusting accordingly to get it around low 80's.

Is this be acceptable?

Regarding night time temperatures, what should they be? I have several heat mats knocking around, should I be using one at night time or will the thermostat controlled night time bulb be enough?

I'd also like to hear about ventilation. The old viv had about four or five round holes cut out at the back and inserted were plastic vents. The new viv had nothing essentially. Except a dirty great big gap at the top rear. Obviously, I closed this gap using some panel. Then drilled a number of holes in it to let air in. There is also a gap about an inch by two inch behind the bulbs/guard. Is this sufficient ventilation?

Good news is she's already been out at least once tonight, having a look around. Still settling in though, only been in a couple of hours. The old viv was low, this one is elevated so the cats can't 'bug' her as easily now.

Thanks again for the help.

@Chu'Wuti - yup! Thought about it of course! But the wife put her foot down lol, we're looking at starting a family this year and the room that was to be the nursery now has a corn snake in a mansion lol

[Wolfus_305]

I'm not sure how to help you because I'm not an expert when it comes to cornsnakes. The info that you've gotten so far sounds really good though.
Nice looking vivarium though!
Kenny

[siz]

Nice freebie for sure!
I'm pretty sure you don't need the Night Glo lamp, corn snakes don't need night heat unless your room gets very cold at night. I doubt it would hurt but it's definatley not nessecary.
How many Watts is your HeatGlo/what's the temperature on the basking spot? The tank is high enough that you could use both the lamp and the UTH if the bulb isn't too hot.

My friend's corn snake spend most of his time in the warm hide as well, sometimes the cool hide, doesn't really come out much. But I guess there isn't a whole lot for him to climb around on.

[Kmef07]

You do know that you could use the same bulb for the night and day right? the snake shouldn't be able to see either the red or blue bulb. the red one is much hotter than the blue ones. at least my 75w red is much hotter than my 75w night glow blue bulb.

[Logan1981]

Thanks guys. Duly noted about the bulbs. I might just use the red one for both then. Thanks :)

[Smilts]

Looking nice, I'm still going to stress that belly heat is better but as long as the temps on the floor are good then it should work out good. It sounds like your problem all along is solved by keeping the cats away.

[Aaron_S]

The height is a little high for bubls to be used. You may need to use more powerful ones. Just be sure to check your temperatures where the snake is on the ground. That may be part of the reason for her lack of movement, she's been slightly too cold. Most corns are pretty active.

Everyone has already given good advice and you've done a good job as well, that I can see. Since it has been mentioned that corns (all snakes in general) do not need UV lighting you can use it to simulate the day/night cycle you want. Check out Kathy Love's book on corn snakes. She's the Queen! Also since the snake doesn't use the UV for any nutrients then you don't have to change it every 6 months, just once it burns out!

[Kmef07]

Everyone has already given good advice and you've done a good job as well

wow first time i've ever seen aaron post about someone doing a good job on something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Logan1981]

Thanks again guys :) I'm going to switch to the one bulb and replace the other bulb with a heat mat. Not sure whether to have the heat mat on 24/7 or just during the night. Will see what floor temps are like.

Regarding the cats, we've only had them for last two years, I've had my corn for six. She's always been inactive. But true enough, keeping her out of cats view is a preferred. :)

[Smilts]

It sounds like its in her nature to chill then :) Also I suggest on the heating pad using a thermostat there nice because they shut it off at a certain temp so no over heating or wasting electricity.

[Aaron_S]

wow first time i've ever seen aaron post about someone doing a good job on something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meh, it's easier to give suggestions :P

I just don't say the good words...maybe I should...maybe I need to "parent" people? You know, do the whole positive reinforcement thing to get results.

[Chu'Wuti]

I just don't say the good words...maybe I should...maybe I need to "parent" people? You know, do the whole positive reinforcement thing to get results.

Oh, that would definitely make us all feel better! LOL!

To defend Aaron, he has posted compliments before, but you're right--they are few and far between. Maybe we should think of his compliments this way--their rarity makes them more valuable!

Re the UTH--I'd use it for sure and on a thermostat if you can to raise heat for the day time/lower heat for the night time. But be careful not to get it too high so you don't risk burning the snake. Belly heat helps any snake digest its meals--as Aaron has mentioned elsewhere (and others have mentioned, too!).

[Logan1981]

Noted, thank you :) Got a spare stat for it so alls good ;)

Thing is though, the shelter she likes to hide in is shaped like a hollowed out rock where the top removes. It has a bottom with a moss like type bedding. She loves it in there. It'll be just so damned hard to actually tell how hot the mat is making it! Best I can do is put a thermometer on the substrate aswell, and monitor its temp.

Thanks again all :)

Just as an aside. My dad is having my old 3ft viv. He's quite keen on a lizard. Wants one that doesn't mind handling. Any suggestions for a first timer? I'm thinking gecko's would be the obvious choice. Its a bit too small for a beardie or blue tongue. Thanks.

[Aaron_S]

Geckos are easiest. Cheap and easy and a very good introductory animal. I personally don't think blue tongues are that good as first time lizards. Require a bit more lighting and needs. Fat tail geckos are my number one choice.

[Smilts]

I'm going to agree with gecko's as a firsty.

[siz]

I love geckos! Gotta recommend them too. Crested geckos are great, super easy to care for but can be a bit jumpy. Gargoyle geckos are similar but less jumpy. Both of these geckos are usually good with room temperature and they don't need UVB.
Leopard geckos are terrestrail so they don't jump, they are very popular as well with fairly low maintence.
If you are interested in crested gecko or gargoyles I can tell you much more!:)

[Chu'Wuti]

I was going to say crested geckos myself, but siz beat me to it. Cool little animals!

Hope your new viv works out and you get to see more of that snake! And I hope your dad has fun with his new adventure!

[Logan1981]

Thanks guys :)

@siz - thanks for that advice. Nice little run down of the geckos. We looked at crested today. As you say, nice but jumpy. They need a lot of height apparently with plenty to climb on? So I think my dad's going with leo's as they're similar temperment but don't need to climb etc. and more suited to my old viv.

I'm so tempted to get some geckos myself would that size last lifetime?

What are gargoyle geckos like? What are their requirements? As they are quite cute looking :)

Thanks again :)

[Chu'Wuti]

From what I've read, you can keep an individual crested or gargoyle in a 20-gallon size tank, but that would be the minimum; apparently leos can go smaller. Your old enclosure sounds bigger than that, so your dad should be fine. A 29-gallon size tank is adequate for 3--one male, two females--of any of the three species, though again, larger might be better for the cresteds as they attain mature size, because they tend to be more active. Gargoyles are a little less active, and they need branches & things to climb on, which makes the viv more interesting IMHO.

There are some good care sheets on gargoyles, such as this: Gargoyle Geckos - Care In Captivity (http://www.thelizardwizard.co.uk/Gargoyle_Gecko_Care.htm)

Just google "gargoyle gecko care" and you will get links to a number of others as well.

Leos are apparently very friendly little creatures, so your dad should have fun!

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, I just learned about these: Phelsuma (day gecko)--they are gorgeous!

Here's a link to a care sheet: Phelsuma Care Sheet (http://www.daygecko.com/html/care_sheets.html)

look at this one: P borbonica (http://www.daygecko.com/html/p_borbonica.html)

or this one: P ornata (http://www.daygecko.com/html/p_ornata.html)

or: P laticauda (http://www.daygecko.com/html/p_laticauda.html)

Wow! Those are just a few of the many possibilities.

There are a couple of places with tons of info--Gecko Ranch and the one I just posted links to.

Have fun with whatever you get!

[siz]

Phelsuma are beautiful, but their skin is very delicate and can't be touched. No handling those guys unfortunately.
I'd go about 15g for a leo, and 25g (tall) or bigger for a crested gecko or garg, they'll use all the room. Like I said, their care is super simple and I love working with them. Anything from the Rhacadactylus family is great IMO (go google chahoua and leachianus!) but I'm biased, haha.
Another really cool gecko that I personally have had my eye on is a Tokay (Gecko Gekko). Not too friendly at all, they can be quite aggressive but are beautiful display geckos. They get to about a foot long so need at least a 30g tank.

[Chu'Wuti]

Tokay (Gecko Gekko). Not too friendly

Yeah, my oldest son had one for several years. It bit him several times!