View Full Version : how to get my humidity higher
dexter 1988
01-29-09, 09:07 PM
i have a ball python i had for 1years i got a new take it is a 75g glass aqum. need some help on getting the humidity higher. something other them wet a towle and putting it on top of the tank, water bowl under the light and sparing the tank i'm doin all of that now. :no:
Chu'Wuti
01-29-09, 09:17 PM
Cover the tank with plexiglass/glass/plastic to retain humidity?
Best recommendation I've received is to go to a smaller tank. I currently have a BP in a 55-gallon & have been told that going smaller will help with both heat and humidity retention.
Moistening the substrate will also help.
i built a wood box to go over mine with a towel over that
Aaron_S
01-29-09, 10:18 PM
Maybe just use a smaller tank?
Chu'Wuti
01-30-09, 08:22 AM
From what I've read, a 75-gallon is way too big for a BP anyway. If I had a 75-gallon, I'd use it for a different snake . . . dreaming again . . .
What are you using for substrate?
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 08:35 AM
What are you using for substrate?
i us newspaper
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 08:36 AM
i like the big tank is the something else i can do
Ditch the newspaper. It doesn't hold humidity at all. I personally use ReptiBark Forest Floor, it's like mulch/fine wood chips so it holds humidity much better. Make sure whatever you change it to doesn't have big enough pieces that your snake can eat them accidentally and get impacted.
edit: Oh and regarding your tank, smaller is better for a BP, they like to feel secure in a smaller enviroment. You could keep your big tank but make sure to have lots of hides that the snake can squeeze into, and you could maybe try adding some non-toxic live pants to raise humidity (and for your BP to climb on, lol).
hope this helps
citysnakes
01-30-09, 12:46 PM
a substrate like cypress mulch is pretty cheap and great at retaining moisture. its great for boosting humidity. youre still going to have to cover up most of the screen to keep the humidity from escaping. i would get rid of the wet towel and wrap the screen up to the heat lamp with plastic wrap or whatever else keeps the moisture from escaping that will work for you.
that should help but you will occasionally need to add a little water to the substrate and mist the enclosure. just dont soak the thing.
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 01:45 PM
Ditch the newspaper. It doesn't hold humidity at all. I personally use , it's like mulch/fine wood chips so it holds humidity much better. Make sure whatever you change it to doesn't have big enough pieces that your snake can eat them accidentally and get impacted.
edit: Oh and regarding your tank, smaller is better for a BP, they like to feel secure in a smaller enviroment. You could keep your big tank but make sure to have lots of hides that the snake can squeeze into, and you could maybe try adding some non-toxic live pants to raise humidity (and for your BP to climb on, lol).
hope this helps
thanks i will go out and buy some but will it grow mold when i spray my enclosure and will the ReptiBark Forest Floor harbor parasites, mites or git them fast should i spray my tank with some kind of mite killer spray when i clean enclosure.
she love her home i have 3 hides 1 on hot side 1 on cool side 1 on in the middle alot of fake plan and 2 logs she loves to climb on but i will try to get some real non toxic plants thakes man
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll51/kmef07/IMG_0215.jpg
This is what i did to make my screen top hold humidity. the box is complete with a towel over it to kind of insulate it close a couple cracks. my humidity can stay at 98% on warm side with the thermometer close to the ground and 85-89% on the cool side with the thermometer at the top of the cage. all in all this worked. i mist every morning and night but dont really need to. i have gone 3 days and the humidity has stayed the same i even put in another humidity gauge to make sure and it was accurate
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 01:48 PM
a substrate like cypress mulch is pretty cheap and great at retaining moisture. its great for boosting humidity. youre still going to have to cover up most of the screen to keep the humidity from escaping. i would get rid of the wet towel and wrap the screen up to the heat lamp with plastic wrap or whatever else keeps the moisture from escaping that will work for you.
that should help but you will occasionally need to add a little water to the substrate and mist the enclosure. just dont soak the thing.
thanks for the help man that sounds good i will give it a try
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 02:05 PM
keep all the good info coming
oh remember to make sure there is adequate airflow in the tank. if you seal it up too tight it becomes stagnant air. (i don't know if that is the correct way to say that but you get the idea). in my box i just drilled one hole on each end and put on hole higher than the other
thanks i will go out and buy some but will it grow mold when i spray my enclosure and will the ReptiBark Forest Floor harbor parasites, mites or git them fast should i spray my tank with some kind of mite killer spray when i clean enclosure.
she love her home i have 3 hides 1 on hot side 1 on cool side 1 on in the middle alot of fake plan and 2 logs she loves to climb on but i will try to get some real non toxic plants thakes man
Nope, that was one of my questions as well, it shouldn't grow mold. Really you shouldn't have the humidity constanly high enough for mold to grow anyway. I have heard of mites in bags of substarte before but mites are species specific, so it doesn't matter. I don't see a need to spray unless you actually see mites, (usually around the eyes or nostrils) or if your snake is soaking in it's water bowl more than usual.
You're welcome, good luck! (I'm a girl by the way..man;) haha)
edit: If you change the newspaper for a different substrate you might not even need to add real plants to the tank, but they make it look a lot more attractive.
If you can't keep proper husbandry in your fish cage, maybe it's time to consider a different type of enclosure. It IS all about the snake, right?
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 06:51 PM
If you can't keep proper husbandry in your fish cage, maybe it's time to consider a different type of enclosure. It IS all about the snake, right?
it is all about her. but she love the big tank I just have to get the humidity up a little higher.
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 06:53 PM
Nope, that was one of my questions as well, it shouldn't grow mold. Really you shouldn't have the humidity constanly high enough for mold to grow anyway. I have heard of mites in bags of substarte before but mites are species specific, so it doesn't matter. I don't see a need to spray unless you actually see mites, (usually around the eyes or nostrils) or if your snake is soaking in it's water bowl more than usual.
You're welcome, good luck! (I'm a girl by the way..man;) haha)
edit: If you change the newspaper for a different substrate you might not even need to add real plants to the tank, but they make it look a lot more attractive.
thank you very much
"but she love the big tank "
She does, does she...
When did she tell you? Does she wag her tail every time you put here in her tank, or does she lick you?
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 11:44 PM
yes yes yes yes she does
herpocrite27
02-02-09, 10:54 PM
I use a substrate called Eco Earth by Zoo Med, it’s made of ground up coconut shells, It seems to soak up a lot of water. This substrate also looks just like dirt and because of the amount of carbon in coconut shells it helps absorb odors. This is where they get the carbon for Scentlok Clothing. You could also invest in a fogger or mister. But I have been looking around for a good mister and I haven’t found any with a reasonable price, which also has good reviews. I did find a site for a DIY mister that I plan on building during spring break. Automated Chameleon Misting System (http://www.trix.com/binx/mister/) . Good Luck
i use an aquarium and my humidity stays just fine. now i will admit that it is really difficult to get it to the proper point, in my case between 78-90+%, but once you can get the humidity to stay stable for a day or two with constant misting it seems to hold better with just misting good in the morning and at night. i use repti bark and it seems to do well as well as two uth's that are awesome with humidity. i recently also got a ceramic bulb to replace the basking light and it is helping a ton with keeping the humidity stable. i just put some spagum moss in yesterday left over from my grandpas funeral and that is proving to be really good stuff.
Wow guys! Keeping a ball python with optimal conditions in a fish cage seems like soooo much work..
dude try keeping a brb in a fish cage lol now that is a ton of work lol. but it's worth it. the aquarium looks cool as hell now that i made the box on top look a lot better and i use it on top of the tv in my room and it looks cool as hell.
I'm a believer in Sterilite latching top tubs.
but the tubs them selves are so ugly they drive me insane they look like something i pack the sweaters in my grandma gets me for christmas every year....
Chu'Wuti
02-03-09, 02:41 PM
I'm a believer in Sterilite latching top tubs
OK, that's fine. But I'm not a breeder, and my BP is on display. So I want a tank that's pretty. I've been looking at exo-terras and am saving up for one . . . but for now, I have to use what I've got.
Chu, that is more than understandable.
herpocrite27
02-05-09, 08:51 AM
Chu'wati, I found this site that has reasonably priced tanks that look very durable and are easy to clean. I dont know what exo terras you were looking at, but from the ones I have seen, they dont look as rugged as the ones from this site. Plastic Reptile Cages, Tanks and Racks. Snake, arboreal, lizard and turtle light weight custom flexwatt heated enclosures. (http://www.boaphileplastics.com/322d.html)
Let me know what you think.
citysnakes
02-05-09, 10:44 AM
what are you guys talking about? rubbermaid tubs are pretty...
"but the tubs them selves are so ugly they drive me insane they look like something i pack the sweaters in my grandma gets me for christmas every year.... "
Maybe a ball python is not the right snake for you...
jimbousmc
02-05-09, 11:24 AM
i just had an issue with the misting because of the bubstrate yes it can and will harbor bacteria even if you regularly clean and change it my ball python developed skin rot and yes i think we have it under control now. so i have ordered a fogger for her aqarium and
the plastic on the screen is a great idea. city snakes i might have to try that myself
kyle yours seems to be working great as well
with an aquarium that big which i think is great i like a big aquarium i think you may need to go with something that constanly puts humidity in the air like a fogger but they are like 60 bucks
im just saying that i would rather have a cool looking tank than a plastic box on the ground. if it means more work then im fine with that. now when i start my breeding program soon then yes my favorite snakes will have aquariums and all my babies and other snakes i don't find as cool looking will have rubbermaid racks i will build. but for the select 4 or 5 they will be on display in my house.
Chu'Wuti
02-05-09, 10:15 PM
what are you guys talking about? rubbermaid tubs are pretty...
OK, Julian . . . Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! BPs are beautiful; rubbermaid and sterilite tubs are, as previously noted, great for storing sweaters!
If I'm going to have an animal, I want it to have a nice habitat; a plastic tub just doesn't fit my criteria. It's not only a matter of what looks nice to me but also a matter of what will provide an optimum environment for the animal. (Optimum meaning more than just the right temp/humidity) So label me picky! :)
citysnakes
02-05-09, 10:41 PM
rubbermaids provide an optimum environment for the animal...
Chu'Wuti
02-06-09, 08:44 AM
meaning meeting all the basic requirements for keeping the animal healthy. Maybe I should say I want more than optimum, or more than basic optimum, or something. I know--I want fancy optimum! ;)
how about supreme optimum???? huh pretty catchy if i must say so myself......
Chu'Wuti
02-06-09, 08:51 AM
how about supreme optimum????
Hmmm . . . I think we need special definitions! ;) Maybe there's a difference between supreme and fancy!
citysnakes
02-06-09, 12:01 PM
rubbermaids are supreme optimum. reptile display enclosures are fancy optimum. fish tanks are far less than optimum. unless youre caring for fish.;)
Chu'Wuti
02-06-09, 12:23 PM
OK, so now we have these levels:
suboptimum (fish tank)
optimum??
supreme optimum (rubbermaid tubs)
reptile display enclosures (fancy optimum)
So what is "merely" optimum? How would rubbermaid tubs be better than "optimum"?
citysnakes
02-06-09, 12:39 PM
we must hear from the authority on optimality...
Chu:
"If I'm going to have an animal, I want it to have a nice habitat; a plastic tub just doesn't fit my criteria"
So it's about you then?
Chu'Wuti
02-09-09, 03:09 PM
So it's about you then?
Interesting that you'd think that. Nope. It's all about the snake.
How many snakes have you caught on a field herping expedition that were living in plastic containers?
Aaron_S
02-09-09, 03:52 PM
How many snakes have you caught on a field herping expedition that were living in plastic containers?
None. How many have you caught living in glass tanks or wooden enclosures?
GoodSmeagol
02-09-09, 06:20 PM
Chu:
So it's about you then?
Pets are symbiotic relationship with us.
We choose to take them into our care.
Not just to care for them, but to have them be enjoyed by us.
It is not only about the snake.
Some one chooses to take on the responsibility, and yes the snake should be cared for.
But if you are going to buy a pet, something you will interact with, this Symbiosis is important. For, if I put my snakes in tubs that I could not see them, sure they may be cared for, but not in a manner in which I want to own a pet.
A pet - Symbiotic with us, "the living together of unlike organisms". Which benifits both parties
An animal in your care - Living on its own for its benifit only.
You Mykee, have a bunch of Animals in your care.
I do not care for animals in my care. I care for PETS in my care.
If I do not see my pets on display, what is the purpose of careing for it.
Other then to keep it healthy...
Fish tanks do require some small modifications to provide proper ranges and gradients for Balls, as proved by many posters in this thread, FISH TANKS WORK FINE
I have 2 reptile display cages, They have a screen top, I place palastic shelf liner on the top with a 3inch hole in all corners.
I also open the cages at least once daily to interact with my PETS.
As described in another thread, my humidity was to low, I was going by breeders and advice gained in other places.
I decided to raise my levels to 75% during shed, 60% all other times.
This is far below your recomendations, however I do not care what you recommend, as said, you are an ***, and I do not take advice from jerks.
I bought at walmart a 40 dollar Warm Mist Humidifier. I raised the humidity in my room to 40%, with a daily mist and a large water bowl in each cage, the last 3 days my tanks have stayed above 60%.
No need for an expensive mister which would handle a single cage.
Ambient room temp is 75, cages raised to 80low,88high ambient, with ground surface between 80-95 grandiently.
Aaron_S
02-09-09, 07:58 PM
I bought at walmart a 40 dollar Warm Mist Humidifier.
I can spend 10 bucks at wal mart and buy an appropriate cage that keeps humidity with a proper sized water dish (bought for 2 bucks)
I know Mykee can come off as "harsh" sometimes but he's not wrong. Why should we buy animals as pets and do all these little 'tricks' to get their husbandry correct when all you need to do is buy a better enclosure? Tanks are crap. End of story. There's plenty of options out there. Build your own with front viewing windows, buy a pre-made enclosure with large front viewing window. Best part about those options is they hold heat and humidity. All you do is spend a bit more on a nicer looking enclosure.
GoodSmeagol
02-09-09, 08:46 PM
I can spend 10 bucks at wal mart and buy an appropriate cage that keeps humidity with a proper sized water dish (bought for 2 bucks)
I know Mykee can come off as "harsh" sometimes but he's not wrong. Why should we buy animals as pets and do all these little 'tricks' to get their husbandry correct when all you need to do is buy a better enclosure? Tanks are crap. End of story. There's plenty of options out there. Build your own with front viewing windows, buy a pre-made enclosure with large front viewing window. Best part about those options is they hold heat and humidity. All you do is spend a bit more on a nicer looking enclosure.
Because at the end of the day, after we do all these little tricks to get the proper husbandry, the tank is more then suitable for Balls.
You spend 10 bucks on a tub.
I will fight that a TUB is the best enclosure.
Would you rather spend your life in a room with a window, or a frakkin prison cell with no window?
You treat your animals like criminals.
I will place this arguement.
We place humans in jail, when they break the law yes?
We place them in a small cell with a bed, and a toilet.
We feed them 3 regular meals through out the day.
ALL of their living requirements are provided.
Is that the best way for us to live?
NO we enjoy nice lives with freedom to explore, forrage, enjoy life.
I think putting a ball in a small tub that it may very well be comfortable in, is inhumain!
Treat the animals with respect, take proper care of them, allow them to live long fruitful lives.
Instead of a life of isolation.
Again,
All these tricks to make a Fishtank suitable.
No tricks and a cell block is suitable.
We, use alot of little fancy tricks to make OUR life easy, I simply provide the same for my pets. Hell even the damn pet is part of our 'tricks' to make life better.
I stand by my point that Mykee may have experience with large amounts of balls. But he is still a jerk.
And by the way, my fish tanks lay on their side, making the screen on its side. They are reptile/critter cages with sliding lockable lids.
I have 1 Fishtank this would not work for. It uses the same method of keeping in humidity as my Snake cages with a screened top, mostly covered with a few circulation holes.
well as a prison guard i can say inmates have much more than that in your argument? Tank, tub there in the same sorta small invironment. I dont have a huge problem with tanks but it takes alot more work such as at least a custom plexiglass cover to make them work. Ifyou have time and are willing to do the extra work then great, but how many that say they will actually do and because of that how many reptiles live much worse than they have to.
Aaron_S
02-09-09, 09:24 PM
Tank vs Tub? You're comparing these to a prison? Do you not get the irony of your analogy? You are actually comparing keeping these animals in captivity in small enclosures to the wild. If you feel they need "space" then don't own any as it's a crime to take them out of the wild.
I'm sorry but snakes don't "enjoy life" as we do. How they enjoy life is to eat, sleep and procreate. Their life goal is to continue their species. That is it. Keeping a single animal as a "pet" is actually doing the species and it's intention on this earth a disservice.
Lastly, I suggested if you don't like tubs then there's more suitable reptile specific enclosures that be built or bought. Fish tanks are for fish.
ok so i will agree that the tanks are easier and if by them being easier then yes they are better but if you can achieve the same housing with a tank as you can a tub then they are equal in all respects that concern the animal. so if they are equal and one person prefers a prettier enclosure in which to show off thier animal then who cares. they are EQUAL as long as they do the same thing. no matter how hard it is in either to make them suitable.
GoodSmeagol
02-09-09, 09:55 PM
[quote=Aaron_S;545438]Tank vs Tub? You're comparing these to a prison? Do you not get the irony of your analogy? You are actually comparing keeping these animals in captivity in small enclosures to the wild. If you feel they need "space" then don't own any as it's a crime to take them out of the wild.
I'm sorry but snakes don't "enjoy life" as we do. How they enjoy life is to eat, sleep and procreate. Their life goal is to continue their species. That is it. Keeping a single animal as a "pet" is actually doing the species and it's intention on this earth a disservice.
I will quote good ol' Mykee to respond to
"She does, does she...
When did she tell you? Does she wag her tail every time you put here in her tank, or does she lick you? "
With a good this quote from Mykees earlier post
"She does, does she...
When did she tell you? Does she wag her tail every time you put here in her tank, or does she lick you? "
I believe a cage with a view is far superior to a CELL, I make the choice to buy a ball python, and I give it the best life I think it would want.
If you think a better life is in a 4 walled cage with nothing else but a little hide for it to go under, call it a bed.
Then go to spend a few days in a cell block, then a few days in a hospital bed with a nice view.
Tell me which is better, if you prefer the jail cell, I will bow to your feet as well.
Yes, I punish my snake because I put it in a cage, and not let it roam free in Africa.
But unlike you, I put my snake in the better of the 2 evils.
My temps are right, now, thanks to Mykees rant and my initiative do read further on humidity levels, my humidity is correct.
Now tell me again, why is a glass enclosure wrong? because its more difficult to to get to those temps and ranges? Now see I put the extra effort in, and now they will match within reason at least 50% of the ball python communities.
so the problem is.....?
Chu'Wuti
02-09-09, 10:55 PM
None. How many have you caught living in glass tanks or wooden enclosures?
None; I concede that point.
However, I have no interest in keeping the snake hidden in a plastic tub where I cannot see him 99% of the time. Nor am I interested in making it "easy" on myself or as cheap as possible by using a plastic tub.
I want to provide an enclosure that mimics the natural habitat for the creature in my care reasonably well while still ensuring that it is healthful for the animal. Even if it is still in captivity in a small space. By doing so, my husband and I can sit on our couch and enjoy watching our BP sliding gracefully up and over his branch, through his bracket loop, and around his enclosure. We are able to observe behavior that appears to be fairly natural as he arranges himself in a pose that suggests he is waiting for a small furry creature to come to drink at the watering hole (bowl), or as he waits patiently for a small creature to appear under a plant, or as he basks under the "sun" (heat lamp). I understand that you do not approve of any of these things.
So I've had to work a little harder and spend a little more money in my effort to provide a habitat that is appropriate in humidity and temperature in my BP's enclosure. That doesn't justify my being sneered at. You have made your choices; I'm making mine. As long as I am providing the correct humidity, temperature range, basking spots, and food, why shouldn't I go to the extra effort if I wish to do so?
Mykee and Aaron, I respect both of you for your expertise and knowledge about BPs, and I truly appreciate all the care you take to provide detailed information to the many newbies and ignorant people who come to this forum for advice. However, we have different reasons for having snakes in our care, as well as different goals for their lives while they are in our care.
I'm sorry but snakes don't "enjoy life" as we do. How they enjoy life is to eat, sleep and procreate. Their life goal is to continue their species. That is it. Keeping a single animal as a "pet" is actually doing the species and it's intention on this earth a disservice.
I agree that snakes don't enjoy life as we do. Does that justify my stuffing one in an unnatural habitat such as a plastic tub when, with a little extra effort and expense, I could provide a more natural habitat? Even if I am the only one who will appreciate the nicer habitat and the snake never does, at least I know that I am treating the snake with the respect it deserves as a living creature on this earth. I agree with GoodSmeagol, quite frankly--I believe keeping animals in plastic tubs is inhumane.
In addition, while I agree that snakes don't enjoy life as we do, I disagree that snakes have any "intention" on this earth. The word intention implies deliberate planning of an action to achieve a desired objective, which in turn implies a level of intelligence that snakes do not have.
Furthermore, if keeping a single animal as a pet is doing Serpentes (not merely one species, but all of them) a disservice--indeed, we should say it is doing all Reptilia a disservice--if that is true, then ALL of us are engaged in that disservice. Those of you who are breeding any species of Serpentes or any other reptilian in order to sell them are doing them an enormous disservice.
Or will you argue that you are keeping them alive as they die in their natural habitats? Then we could discuss how your breeding many different morphs is contributing to their natural purpose in the order of things, especially those morphs that could never survive in nature. And if you argue that you are continuing the species/suborder/order/class (take your choice of what level you are assisting) by breeding them, then I and the rest of us who purchase your product--the offspring you produce by breeding your snakes or other herps in unnatural circumstances--are contributing to and facilitating your efforts to keep these beautiful animals alive on this eart. And you sneer at us?
And BTW, I've kept quiet about the claim that BPs get stressed in large enclosures for a long time, but since we're on a discussion that touches on their natural habitat versus their captive conditions, it seems to me quite ludicrous to claim that an animal that lives naturally in the great outdoors will be stressed by a 55-gallon enclosure or larger. It is not a logical argument.
Perhaps that helps you justify your Rubbermaid tubs, though.
Now you've pissed me off.
GoodSmeagol and Kyle, I appreciate your contributions and defense.
Coy, I also appreciate your tolerance of my choice: Ifyou have time and are willing to do the extra work then great,
citysnakes
02-10-09, 01:09 AM
are you guys seriously having a tub vs. tank war?
tub or tank, they are both not natural environments and the snake doesnt know the difference between them. as long as you can provide the animals basic needs in either type then they are both just as "humane" as the other.
im sorry to break it to you guys but nobody here is replicating the wild no matter how natural you think your enclosure is. do you tank people really believe that because you use coco husk substrate, fancy exo terra hides, fake rock water bowls and maybe climbing branches that you are replicating a ball python's natural habitat? my balls dont know the difference between that and aspen substrate, upside down kitty litter tub hides and dog water bowls and they are doing just as well if not better than your animals.
point being although a plastic tub and a fish tank are not designed to house any type of reptile, with a little modification they can both properly do the job.
GoodSmeagol
02-10-09, 01:23 AM
Who said anything about replicating :)
I use paper towel substrate
A small plastic bin with a hole cut in it for its humid hide
A white glass pie plate for a water dish, 1.5" deep(not the water)
and a raw looking Y branch
Spungum(sp) moss in each hide, one slightly moistened
Aaron wasnt wrong in entirity, they do not think or see or take the same comfort in us, so I do not care to spend for the exo terra rocks and such
I use 'tricks' to fake something for them to do other then slide up and down the plastic walls of a tub
I got riled up because they were making me out to be a terrible herper because I choose to use a TERRARIUM(fish tank, seems to be a misuse of the term)
Aaron_S
02-10-09, 04:30 AM
Julian, I was not trying to have a "tub vs tank war". You said what I was trying to say a lot better than myself. I was trying to point out that either way it's still not natural to keep them in a tank or tub. If I am going to do either I'm going to do the one that's best suited to my snake. I've used tanks and they CAN work with adjustments as pointed out but my snakes in them weren't always the best eaters.
As I mentioned, why use fish tanks which are harder to use or clean even when there's plenty of great enclosures you can buy will massive front doors for viewing purposes? Nobody seems to have answered this.
Chu: You don't understand why a large tank would stress out a snake? You don't get the difference between a snakes life in Africa compared to one in a 4 sided, glass tank, with people continually putting their hands in there to clean and just stare at the snake. Touching it. Ball pythons in Africa lie in some hide the entire time. They don't roam when they don't have to.
Let's look at it this way. I got some baby ball pythons earlier this year. I originally set them up in larger enclosures (with hides) and they would not eat for me. I switched them to smaller enclosures and all four started eating for me with a voracious appetite. Difference? Only the habitat size. Makes you wonder...
Chu'Wuti
02-10-09, 08:24 AM
they are both not natural environments and the snake doesnt know the difference between them. as long as you can provide the animals basic needs in either type then they are both just as "humane" as the other.
nobody here is replicating the wild no matter how natural you think your enclosure is
Do you think that we don't know that? Here's what I said:
enclosure that mimics the natural habitat for the creature in my care reasonably well
I suppose I shouldn't have said "reasonably well," or I should at least have qualified it to "reasonably well in the space I have provided for captive conditions," as it appears that you guys wish to pick nits on this issue.
Fine. My enclosure is not natural at all; I'm quite aware of that. And it's not appropriate despite my work to ensure that the temps & humidity are appropriate and that there are multiple hides. It is only attractive in appearance, it only provides a few of the "amenities" of nature, and my snake only comes out hunting when he feels like it and appears to be comfortable in it to my completely biased and totally inexperienced eye. And as my eye is so very inexperienced, I really don't know whether he's comfortable, so I must be making it all up. It's all in my mind, right?
point being although a plastic tub and a fish tank are not designed to house any type of reptile, with a little modification they can both properly do the job.
Thank you, Julian!!
I was beginning to think that Rubbermaid and Sterilite had designed their plastic tubs specifically for keeping snakes in them! And it's a great relief to know that "with a little modification" my glass enclosure can do the job. Indeed, that is precisely what we have done to ensure proper humidity and temps.
my balls dont know the difference between that and aspen substrate, upside down kitty litter tub hides and dog water bowls and they are doing just as well if not better than your animals.
I originally set them up in larger enclosures (with hides) and they would not eat for me. I switched them to smaller enclosures and all four started eating for me with a voracious appetite. Difference? Only the habitat size.
That's great, Aaron and Julian! It's wonderful that your snakes are doing so well!
Of course, you don't know how my animal is doing--you're only making assumptions because you've learned I'm not keeping him in a Rubbermaid tub. You've decided that Rubbermaid (or whatever brand you're using) tubs are perfect, which means that anything else is imperfect and therefore snakes kept in anything else cannot be doing well.
I can turn that argument around, too, but I won't, because you'll just throw it back in my face. So I'll just let it drop here, because it'll just set off another round of this, and I have no interest in engaging in this merry-go-round any more.
I think this thread turned into a big misunderstanding i think both parties are now saying that either way is fine as long as there are adequate adjustments made to the benefit of the snake. Rubbermaids by far are the cheapest and they work just fine and are easier to maintain. glass tanks are more expensive but look better and are harder to maintain. i dont think the snake really cares either way as long as it has some place to hide and feel safe whether it be a turned over flower pot with a hole or a fancy fake tree. right now with my one brb i have a glass display tank but when i get more snakes to breed they will probably be kept in rubbermaids as they are easier to maintain with a lot of snakes.
there really is not a good or bad way to go between tanks and tubs. i do agree though that tubs probably make the snakes feel safer because they are more confining and it is more like a hole to them.
As I mentioned, why use fish tanks which are harder to use or clean even when there's plenty of great enclosures you can buy will massive front doors for viewing purposes? Nobody seems to have answered this.
i don't go out and buy a really expensive enclosure because they are really EXPENSIVE. my 35g aquarium was only $30 at a pet store that was going out of business and when i was looking at a massive terrarium it was around $1000. i am currently building one with my dad that will be huge and wooden with a front viewing panel but that has been delayed since my grandpa died last week. so for now to display my beautiful snake i choose to have it in an aquarium. whats the point of owning a beautiful snake if you can't show it off and let everyone see how pretty they are. i've gotten a ton of people interested in snakes the the 6 months or so i've been into snakes. and about 30 people are new snake owners cuz my display in my room caught their eye.
citysnakes
02-10-09, 01:19 PM
Of course, you don't know how my animal is doing--you're only making assumptions because you've learned I'm not keeping him in a Rubbermaid tub.
Chu, please dont assume that i have made any assumptions about the current health of your animal because i have never made any such statements.
You've decided that Rubbermaid (or whatever brand you're using) tubs are perfect, which means that anything else is imperfect and therefore snakes kept in anything else cannot be doing well.
Also please dont accuse me of this belief especially after reading my last post in this thread which clearly says otherwise.
It seems like my post has been misinterpereted as an attack on something or someone. Please dont take it that way as it was only meant to show my own personal opinion on this topic.
Chu'Wuti
02-10-09, 03:14 PM
Keeping a single animal as a "pet" is actually doing the species and it's intention on this earth a disservice.
After more thought, I'm curious about this statement. Why is keeping a single animal as a pet doing this species a disservice?
You don't get the difference between a snakes life in Africa compared to one in a 4 sided, glass tank, with people continually putting their hands in there to clean and just stare at the snake. Touching it. (Bold added)
Do you really believe I don't get the difference between a snake living in the wild and one kept in captivity? I'm sorry to hear that; I'd hoped you had gotten to know me a bit better than that.
How often do you think I put my hands in there and touch my snake? "Continually" suggests that's all I do, day in and day out, 24/7.
How often do you clean your snake's plastic tub? How often do you replace/add water? How often do you handle your snake? I'm willing to bet that I clean, add water, and handle my snake no more often than you do, though of course I could be wrong.
Chu'Wuti
02-10-09, 03:24 PM
Julian said, Chu, please dont assume that i have made any assumptions about the current health of your animal because i have never made any such statements.
And regarding my statement Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti View Post
You've decided that Rubbermaid (or whatever brand you're using) tubs are perfect, which means that anything else is imperfect and therefore snakes kept in anything else cannot be doing well.
you responded:
Also please dont accuse me of this belief especially after reading my last post in this thread which clearly says otherwise.
Julian, I apologize--I combined you and Aaron in my response, and that was unfair to you. You are absolutely correct; you didn't make the assumptions, and you allowed the possibility that both kinds of enclosures could work. Thank you for pointing that out respectfully; I really appreciate it. I enjoy a discussion in which people share various opinions without attacking others for not having the same opinions; I respect those who offer their opinions without attacking others for not having the same opinions; and I appreciate being treated with respect even when I have different opinions.
I do recall that in another thread awhile back, there were various opinions about the nutritional value of different prey animals, and you were equally respectful there. I really admire that.
Aaron_S
02-10-09, 03:35 PM
Chu: The "disservice" statement is that because the snake isn't creating offspring to ensure the survival of the species. That is what the animals of the world do. It's what we (as humans) do. If you think deeply about it, it's truly what most of us strive to do in this world. Mate and bear offspring. We happen to have a higher brain function and thus we have our civilization. Another point is that because they aren't being bred, but being caught and shipped over to us for "pleasure" then it doesn't help the wild population.
I do believe my statement was harsh and very bold to say. That is my argument though and I know you'll just turn it around and say I'm just the same.
Now will you finally respond to the question that Kyle did? I've made suggestions (two) in regards to a different type of enclosure that isn't too expensive but yet can work to benefit both the animal better and yourself. I know people who keep their snakes in boaphiles (spacious ones) and they do fine. Boaphiles are designed for snakes. I've also stated that fish tanks CAN work but there's better. As I've just said (again) there's other options to just fish tanks without the 4-sided glass walls.
See that is where you are making a mistake aaron, it isn't a better option per say it is an easier option. The fact is that either a tank or tub are good options and are equal as long as the conditions in each fit the snakes needs. but he tubs are easier and no one will debate that. if you are a competent person and persistant you can get the conditions right in a tank. i think this whole debate is going nowhere and that it is just a matter of opinion.
Let it go......tanks are prettier but harder to get the right conditions.........tubs are uglier but are easier to keep the right conditions............that is all there is to it there is no other arguemet.
Aaron_S
02-10-09, 04:41 PM
Alright I'm just going to drop it. To each their own but I don't find tanks very pretty for the most part.
Chu'Wuti
02-10-09, 10:40 PM
The "disservice" statement is that because the snake isn't creating offspring to ensure the survival of the species. That is what the animals of the world do. It's what we (as humans) do. If you think deeply about it, it's truly what most of us strive to do in this world. Mate and bear offspring.
I suspected that that is what you meant. So let me be sure I understand--I am doing my snake--which was purchased at a local petstore before I knew better (you've known this since approximately last June or July), and for which I have no genetic history--a disservice by not allowing it to breed, is that correct?
That is the same argument that people apply to their dogs and cats when they allow them to breed indiscriminately, with the result that we (at least in the U.S.) have very large unwanted dog and cat populations. Most of the unwanted animals are simply dumped--often in front of my house when they were too far gone (ill, starved) to save. Others are dumped at the dog pound to be destroyed; others are simply thrown out to fend for themselves and join a rapidly growing feral population of either species.
It is not an argument with which I can agree. I do not believe that purchasing a snake of the opposite sex of any morph and breeding it to this snake would be doing any positive service for the species as a whole, and it could be a huge disservice to the offspring--who would want them? Do YOU buy BPs of unknown genetic heritage? From what I've seen on this forum over the past seven months or so, most of you with long-time experience with BPs, e.g., you, Mykee, Julian, and I'm sure others, are into breeding unusual or favored morphs for which you need extensive genetic histories. My snake is not one you would have ever purchased, nor would you ever consider breeding it.
I do believe my statement was harsh and very bold to say. That is my argument though and I know you'll just turn it around and say I'm just the same.
I'm not sure I understand these two sentences.
Another point is that because they aren't being bred, but being caught and shipped over to us for "pleasure" then it doesn't help the wild population.
That I definitely agree with. None of us, as I think you recognize, are helping the wild population directly by keeping captive snakes. However, three thoughts come to mind:
1) by breeding the snakes here in captivity, many of you are learning a great deal about these snakes that may indeed help the wild population in the future. As we learn more about genetic diversity, we understand more about its importance in survival of a species.
2) by breeding BPs in captivity, you may keep these beautiful animals alive when the wild population is no longer able to survive because its habitat has been destroyed by the encroachment of humans or by global warming changing the climate there too much. I foresee a future, a sad one to be sure, when few animals will exist in the wild, and those species that will still be alive will primarily be the ones that humans have preserved in zoos and as "pets." It's not a future I like believing in, but I think it is undeniable that that is where we are headed.
3) the snake I have was already here in the U.S., in that local pet store where I found it. Though I may be contributing to the disservice being done to the wild population--if indeed this snake was wild caught and not captive bred, which I take leave to doubt--I probably did a great service for this particular individual, as the next batch of BPs I saw at that particular store were not doing very well. So perhaps I have saved its life; on the other hand, I could be exaggerating the service I have done for this particular BP, as I don't know what its future would have been had I not bought it.
Now will you finally respond to the question that Kyle did? I've made suggestions (two) in regards to a different type of enclosure that isn't too expensive but yet can work to benefit both the animal better and yourself.
Apparently you have forgotten that I asked for your suggestions several days ago regarding more appropriate enclosures, and you provided several suggestions. Let me quote what you told me then:
If you want to outright buy an enclosure then there's a few in the states I can recommend. Animal Plastics from what I've heard, are terrific. I haven't heard anything lately of them but I do believe they are still in business and make a great product.
Jeff Ronne at boaphile also makes enclosures. I've seen these first hand and they aren't bad. They have a lot of options to choose from so you can customize them fairly well.
Those are the two I would look into first. There's also Vision cages and I do believe freedom breeder may also make more than just rack systems.
You can build your own but it can be a bit of a hassle. It's certainly cheaper for the material but you make up for that in time.
I copied all of that information and stored it in my extensive and growing snake information folder. I didn't think it necessary for me to repeat myself regarding my desire to find/create a more suitable enclosure. My apologies for ignoring your question this time.
I don't find tanks very pretty for the most part.
I'd post a picture of mine, which I think is fairly pretty even if it is the "wrong" kind of enclosure, but I'm almost afraid to do so! ;)
Aaron, thank you very, very much for responding as you did in your last two posts--I feel much more comfortable with the less inflammatory rhetoric. I have learned a great deal from you, and I have a great deal of respect for your experience and knowledge. However, I, and many other people, learn better when we are given information politely and respectfully. I have always told my students that there is no stupid question--ignorance is something to eradicate through education. Quite often, the question that students are afraid to ask because they don't want to be perceived as stupid or ignorant is the question that about 80% of the students have on their minds; someone has to be brave enough to ask it so that they can all learn.
Thank you for your patience.
chu post pics of your enclosure please i like to see other peoples so i can make adjustments on mine and make it better.
Aaron_S
02-11-09, 04:48 AM
My snake is not one you would have ever purchased, nor would you ever consider breeding it.
I may not prefer to purchase a normal male ball python but I have owned them and nothing is out of the question in regards to breeding. Maybe your snake has some great markings I would like to see passed down into other offspring.
Also, you're right in regards to domestic animals. Although I don't think it's entirely the same for reptiles. For the most part, reptiles can't live in North America. I do know there's now feral burmese pythons in Florida and that's due to people releasing their animals and being terrible owners.
The first sentence is me saying maybe my comment was missplaced. The second sentence is me sticking by my argument or at least explaining it regardless of what I think about it. (I tend to argue for the fun of arguing)
I'm sorry I forgot about the other enclosure post. I also have no doubt that you probably did save the life of your ball python.
haha i argue just for the fun of arguing too!!!! im glad other people on here are the same way. im also going to apoligize now for any future arguements where i piss someone off.
GoodSmeagol
02-11-09, 11:09 AM
Post your pics!
You know a few of us will have nothing negative to say...
When I get my custom units delivered I will post their pics, right now, a bit disorganized.
MurderAuction
02-11-09, 10:56 PM
I have 2 balls in a 55 gallon aquarium and I'm having the same problem. I have not moved my heat light source above the water bowl and put a towel over 2/3 of my screen top. I don't see any vapor on the glass but I'm going to get a hygrometer this weekend and see what the levels are.
I have noticed that the tubs that a lot of people are using are excellent for humidity, but I got snakes to view and don't like the look of the tubs.
I have a nice sized hide in thier house that I made out of a flower pot. The little ball which is about 2 foot long seems to like it. She comes out at night and moves around a bit. The bigger ball which is 3 feet long doesn't seem to care for a hide. I had 2 different ones in the aquarium now and he always go to oppisite side of the aquarium.
As far as substrate I'm using aspen but I'm not misting because I don't want to grow any mold.
What alerted me that the humidity is way to low was the fact that when my little one shed the skin didn't come off well. I have only had the 2 for about a month or so, so I'm trying to tweak here and their for the best results for the 2 balls to be as happy as they can be.
Next I want to build a coffee table aquarium so that I can show them off and not have things so cluttered up.
GoodSmeagol
02-13-09, 09:54 AM
I have 2 balls in a 55 gallon aquarium and I'm having the same problem. I have not moved my heat light source above the water bowl and put a towel over 2/3 of my screen top. I don't see any vapor on the glass but I'm going to get a hygrometer this weekend and see what the levels are.
I have noticed that the tubs that a lot of people are using are excellent for humidity, but I got snakes to view and don't like the look of the tubs.
I have a nice sized hide in thier house that I made out of a flower pot. The little ball which is about 2 foot long seems to like it. She comes out at night and moves around a bit. The bigger ball which is 3 feet long doesn't seem to care for a hide. I had 2 different ones in the aquarium now and he always go to oppisite side of the aquarium.
As far as substrate I'm using aspen but I'm not misting because I don't want to grow any mold.
What alerted me that the humidity is way to low was the fact that when my little one shed the skin didn't come off well. I have only had the 2 for about a month or so, so I'm trying to tweak here and their for the best results for the 2 balls to be as happy as they can be.
Next I want to build a coffee table aquarium so that I can show them off and not have things so cluttered up.
Please go and read some other threads highlighting WHY 2 balls 1 cage is a bad idea!
and 2 different sized balls is worse. READ THEM
im not sure he is talking about the same cage. i hope he has two tanks each with only one snake in it. he didn't specify at least that i could see that they are or aren't in the same tank.
Also, it's better to have your water bowl on the cool side, right under the lamp it can grow bacteria if it's not changed very often.
yes siz, but having the water bowl under the heat lamp makes for a lot more humidity. also i keep one under the heat emitter and one on the cool side and neither have grown mold. the water, at least in my tank, evaportates kinda quick so every morning or night i usually use the sprayer and fill the water bowls back all the way up. also it makes the water move which bacteria and mold dont like.
I didn't say mold, you don't nessecerily see bacteria that your snake could ingest or come into contact with. Moving water is good, but even those waterfalls you can get can grow a LOT of bacteria, and that's constanly moving water.
Chu'Wuti
02-13-09, 06:39 PM
I have a nice sized hide in thier house that I made out of a flower pot.
This suggests to me that MurderAuction has both snakes in the same enclosure. MurderAuction, it's a very bad idea to have more than one snake in one enclosure. Get a 20-gallon enclosure for the little one. If you have male and female and wish to breed them, read about breeding BPs thoroughly before putting them back together--when they are both large enough to breed safely.
MurderAuction
02-14-09, 10:24 AM
This suggests to me that MurderAuction has both snakes in the same enclosure. MurderAuction, it's a very bad idea to have more than one snake in one enclosure. Get a 20-gallon enclosure for the little one. If you have male and female and wish to breed them, read about breeding BPs thoroughly before putting them back together--when they are both large enough to breed safely.
Yes I bought them together in the same aquarium and haven't thought about whether or not they should be together because I see them together all the time. At the pet store I go to they're are several sets of BP's together.
I've seen them housed together at other places also. I could find the thread on here about housing more than one together but I found a few threads on others sites.
I'm going to go out now and get the needed items to set my other tank up.
Thanks for your advise.
MurderAuction
02-14-09, 09:04 PM
today I got a hygrometer and some cypress mulch. According to the meter both my temp and humidity are well within range.
I took the smaller ball out and put into another aquarium. It is a little more active in the new house. Is this because it's new or do you think it feels better being away from the big guy.
The little one ate after I moved it, but the big one although it shows more interest in the rat still didn't eat.
After you post about housing them together though I read that housing 2 together could be the reason that the larger one is not eating. So I'm hoping a week or so alone might prod him to eat.
Thank you all who suggested that housing 2 together is a bad idea. I would have never thought about it since i see them that way via the pet store all the time. I suppose the pet store doesn't know or doesn't see it as a worry since they figure the snakes will be sold before they can hurt each other. Unless I just happened across a thread that mentioned 2 not being housed together I would have been in the dark without you.
Tomorrow first thing I have to go and get a top for the cage that I now have the little one in. Plus I will need a new water bowl, heat light, and meters. This tank is just temp until i can find something bigger.
GoodSmeagol
02-14-09, 10:44 PM
today I got a hygrometer and some cypress mulch. According to the meter both my temp and humidity are well within range.
I took the smaller ball out and put into another aquarium. It is a little more active in the new house. Is this because it's new or do you think it feels better being away from the big guy.
Thank you all who suggested that housing 2 together is a bad idea. I would have never thought about it since i see them that way via the pet store all the time. I suppose the pet store doesn't know or doesn't see it as a worry since they figure the snakes will be sold before they can hurt each other. Unless I just happened across a thread that mentioned 2 not being housed together I would have been in the dark without you.
Tomorrow first thing I have to go and get a top for the cage that I now have the little one in. Plus I will need a new water bowl, heat light, and meters. This tank is just temp until i can find something bigger.
good stuff dude.
You will find pet stores are out to make $$$$, they will try and sell you dirt and say its gold. I never trust them, and rarely go into them.
What do you have covering the new smaller cage right now? Balls are escape artists, be careful there.
Good luck
Chu'Wuti
02-14-09, 10:58 PM
I took the smaller ball out and put into another aquarium. It is a little more active in the new house. Is this because it's new or do you think it feels better being away from the big guy.
I'll bet he feels a lot less stressed! You're right, the pet stores do it all the time. [SHUDDER]
I'm with Good Smeagol--get a cover on that tank if you don't have one--and make sure it's tight. BPs can stretch much higher than you might think--a 24" stretch is no problem for even an only 27-30" snake! I'm amazed at how strong they are--they can balance on just a couple inches of tail while going straight up the side of an enclosure. If there's anything to climb on that will get them higher, even a 16" BP can reach 24" without much difficulty.
GoodSmeagol
02-15-09, 03:57 PM
I'll bet he feels a lot less stressed! You're right, the pet stores do it all the time. [SHUDDER]
I'm with Good Smeagol--get a cover on that tank if you don't have one--and make sure it's tight. BPs can stretch much higher than you might think--a 24" stretch is no problem for even an only 27-30" snake! I'm amazed at how strong they are--they can balance on just a couple inches of tail while going straight up the side of an enclosure. If there's anything to climb on that will get them higher, even a 16" BP can reach 24" without much difficulty.
THOSE LIL BUGGERS EH!
My first ball, I thought I had the lid tightly secured with velcra straps.
Came home from work one night and who was crawling across my floor?
THE LIL BUGGER!
I am... lucky, some people are not so much.
I have yet to have my snake get out. i've been so lucky it seems like my wooden top is heavy enough to keep it down but i dunno i guess i just need to stop being lazy and get some straps. the top is only about 10-20 pounds how big does my brb need to be to be able to get that off? and even if it does push it up a little it would crush it i would assume when it tried to slither between the top and the tank. my finger got stuck in it once and it hurt like a son of a gun.
MurderAuction
02-16-09, 12:02 PM
The larger BP spent about 2 days in the hide before coming out now that the little one is in another home. But he was out this morning on the oppisite side of the tank so I'm guessing he was warming up.
I got a new top, lamp, and bulb for the smaller one today. She (I don't actually know that it's a female) also went into the hide in the new tank and hasn't come out other than the tip of her head.
Do the red and blue bulbs that I see actually out off a significant amount of heat? I read that BP don't like bright light and it's best to use the red or blue lights so I have been buying the red.
the red ones can give off a huge amount of heat. they come in different wattages and you need to make sure it is the night heat bulb and not just a red bulb. look for the ones that say infra red. i had a 75w bulb that i used and it was hotter than a 75w basking bulb. it gives a great amount of heat off and you should be able to see it.
Aaron_S
02-17-09, 08:00 AM
Most snakes don't even need an item to climb to get to the top of the enclosure. I've seen snakes just squeeze themselves into corners of tanks and shimmy up.
Thats how my Cali King escaped. They are surprisingly strong, the enclosure was pretty high and there was weight on the lid.
I've bought two humidifiers at yard sales, for $2 and one with a timer and all for $5.
You can attach hoses to the exhaust, if you remove the deflector vent, and route the humidity where you want it.
I'd keep the hose short though or the vapor may condense in the hose itself.
I think the plant idea is nice. I don't have plants myself, at this time.
I think that ventilation is probably necessary, but snakes live a hole, or some do, and ventilation is probably minimal in there, or I would think so anyway.
I'd think it's species specific.
My tank is usually 40% or higher, and I live in Phoenix where it's really dry.
My snakes don't need high humidity, or so I was told, so I don't use the humidifiers for them.
Somebody was telling me at a rep show this weekend to take a plastic box of some kind and put a hole in it, then fill it will moss and dampen it. put half the box over the heated end of the tank and the other over the unheated. The moisture will condense and create a rainforest affect, so he said. It's a special rainforest hide box :)
The snake can go in when he wants high humidity, and leave when he has enough.
I think that a humidifier with a hide positioned partially over the heater will do well for you.
Open water drinkers should also help.
The plants that get watered should also help.
Go to a herp show and see how the pro's do it. Maybe go to their homes to see how they set them up for optimal, or would that be hyperherptioptimal living.
Chu'Wuti
02-18-09, 10:11 PM
Most snakes don't even need an item to climb to get to the top of the enclosure. I've seen snakes just squeeze themselves into corners of tanks and shimmy up.
I believe it! They are pretty amazing. Such a pleasure to watch the positions they get into, the graceful ways they drape themselves, the strength, the length of time one can hold himself outstretched in the air without even a hint of movement . . .
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.