Venomoid Question

[Graham85]

Ok, I know venomoids are a pretty sensitive topic but please don't just write mad comments to me for asking about them! With that said my question is Do you think a venomoid is a good way for someone to get into venomous snakes and if you don't think a venomoid is a good way, what else could you do?

[Kmef07]

what he heck is a venomoid?????

[Chu'Wuti]

Verrrrry touchy subject! I think you're paying for a hope that could be untrue & therefore dangerous, that's just IMHO. Why alter something just so you can have it captive? But I know some people do.

Kmef07, if you haven't figured out venemoid, think venomous void--a venomous snake that has been surgically altered to remove its venom-producing capabilities.

How does the conflict with its instincts work, I've always wondered. Poor thing.

[Phoenix446]

You have to keep in mind that most venomous snakes depend on the venom for hunting and/or digestion. It seems to me that removing these apparatus will only have a negative impact on the animal. Not a good idea.

[Aaron_S]

Personally, I would go against it. Deep down, you KNOW a bite won't kill you (unless the surgery was botched and the snake regrew it's glands, which is possible) so you just won't treat it the same. The best way is to find someone who is VERY good with them, highly knowledgable and mentor underneath them.

[Kmef07]

thanks chu now i feel stupid for not figuring that out lol

[Smilts]

I agree with Aaron S 100% on this. I think it would give you a false sense of safety that would be hard to break when dealing with unaltered venomous snakes

[Chu'Wuti]

now i feel stupid for not figuring that out lol

Nah, don't feel stupid. The first time I saw the term, I had to google it to figure out what they were talking about.

IMHO, it's just cruel, and I think Phoenix, Aaron, and Coy are all making excellent points.

[Graham85]

thanks for the feedback. I think I have decided against it now. What do yall think of the False Water Cobra?

[Chu'Wuti]

hmm . . . just looked at some images online, and they wouldn't be my pick, but that's just my personal preference. I'm not enamored of the head & neck shape on them. But I'm used to looking at my BP, which has a very elegant head shape & lovely slender neck, so I'm biased.

I'd be leery of the risks, too--if you're wanting a snake you can handle. If you have any allergies, it's entirely possible that you could have a stronger reaction to the venom than what's described. Sensitization is also mentioned, so if you got bit more than once, your reaction could get worse.

However, if you're not planning to handle the snake, I guess it's up to you. Just MHO. Someone else will probably have another opinion or better advice, as I have no experience with this particular animal.

If I were going to have venomous snakes again, I'd have copperheads. They are beautiful snakes.

[gonesnakee]

A great big NO!
Mutilating snakes is NOT the way to go! Venom is the initial stage of their digestion process.
On the FWC question, for starters just how much experience do you already have keeping snakes? A FWC is not a begginer snake. I'd suggest a minimum of 5 years experience working with larger defensive/aggressive snakes prior even taking on a FWC. As for Venomous a decade plus experience keeping snakes & THEN a few years TRAINING under an EXPERIENCED hot keeper that does so RESPONSIBLY! Proper enclosures, proper handling (NO Free handling!) & most improtantly a PROPER ERP in place. ERP is an Emergency Response Plan which involves contacts in place with the local hospital & most importantly having the proper antivenom in stock for ALL species kept. If you think you can handle all of that THEN you are ready for Venomous snakes otherwise you have NO business keeping them. 99/100 Venomous Keepers ARE NOT worthy & rely on others to save their sorry arses when they screw up. Oh & they do screw up, its only a matter of time before improper procedures catch up to them. Mark

[Graham85]

I have a lot of experience with everything from ball pythons and corn snakes to currently owning a western hognose and burmese python and do some work with the snakes and other reptiles at my local zoo. I have around 6 years experience working with snakes but no venomous ones. I am currently getting my degree in Zoo Animal Technology and looking forward to a career taking care of reptiles. I want to slowly get experience with venomous snakes and reptiles.

[gonesnakee]

Larger Asian Ratsnakes are good experience IMHO (can be very fast & unpredicable, which is good practice) & as stated your best bet is to find a "mentor" who you can "train" under with the venomous stuff. Good Luck with your endevours, Mark

[Phoenix446]

OK, if we are talking laboratory conditions then there are more than likely some pretty strict workplace guidelines for the handling of dangerous reptiles. I would assume that before anyone is put in these situations that there would be rigorous training procedures etc. to lower the risk of a bite. My question is why anyone would want to bring that sort of risk to their home. For example, I knew a guy that kept two Naja Atra, or Chinese cobras at home which was all fun and games before he decided to throw a mouse in with them. When he stuck his hand in to free the mouse that was being consumed at both ends, both snakes disengaged and bit him. The ONLY smart idea he had through this whole ordeal was to have antivenin close at hand and so he survived. This man is a prominent member of a high profile east coast herp society, but his experience should show that venomous snakes DO NOT under any circumstances belong at home.

[gonesnakee]

Can't say I agree that none should be kept but do agree most all don't deserve to keep them. Buddy is a classic example. Housing more than one specimen together is a no no. Even if he was doing so for breeding, feeding them while together is a no no. Sticking ones hand in to try & remove one or the other from the prey is just plain stupid. Should have used tongs/hooks etc. Back to what I was saying of those not being worthy ;) Lucky he lived to tell about it. Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

Should have used tongs/hooks

ABSOLUTELY. Any use of hands near those snakes is just plain idiocy begging to get bitten.

I always hated the way Steve Irwin caught venomous snakes . . . bad role model as far as I was concerned!

[joshw42]

Start with a rear fanged species, such as an Asian Vine. The venom is not toxic to humans and the glands are small. I have a few and I think they are an awesome snake. I'm about to get some more from my wholeseller. They are cheap but hard to find, so I am buying them all.

[Kmef07]

that is a b-e-a-uatiul snake. i've never seen one of those before.

[Chu'Wuti]

They ARE beautiful! I thought maybe I would like to have one myself, but then I found this info on wikipedia:

They are difficult to care for, requiring a humid arboreal habitat and a diet of lizards as they rarely switch to rodents. They also stress easily, are prone to skin infections, and internal parasites. from Ahaetulla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaetulla)

I also found that they can be fed anoles & other small lizards, but it seems that it could get kind of expensive to feed them.

However, some people are apparently pretty successful at keeping them in captivity. Here's a link to one such person's website:

The Ahaetulla Vineyard (http://www.geocities.com/ahaetullavineyard/frames.htm)

Good luck!

[Aaron_S]

You can't start with a vine snake and hope it helps "train" you to keep venomous snakes when you free handle it like it's a ball python. That defeats the purpose of what you're trying to do.

[siz]

Josh, what do you feed yours?

I agree with Aaron and Mark. If you know something can't hurt you, you won't respect it like you would a venomous snake, conciously or subconciously..it's just not the same thing..
(Although vine snakes are pretty cool ;))

[Chu'Wuti]

If you know something can't hurt you, you won't respect it like you would a venomous snake, conciously or subconciously..it's just not the same thing..

Having an Asian vine snake could actually end up being more dangerous, as some people might be allergic to the mild venom such that they have a very strong reaction. And I agree with Aaron, Mark, & Jess--subconsciously, you're going to feel and think "safe" and you won't learn to be more careful--you'll actually learn to be less careful.

[siz]

Having an Asian vine snake could actually end up being more dangerous, as some people might be allergic to the mild venom such that they have a very strong reaction.

...you're going to feel and think "safe" and you won't learn to be more careful--you'll actually learn to be less careful.

Hmm, good point. Those two things together can result in one nasty outcome for the handler.

[joshw42]

They eat lizards, birds,etc. Some eat mice, but if not, you can chain feed them a mouse behind a lizard, etc. and they will normally start taking them. They like to bite and can reach very far FAST, but the mouth is so odd it is hard for them to get the fangs into you. If you can take care of an arboreal anything, you can take care of one of these. They are not very hard to care for.
www.jbwexotics.com.

[Chu'Wuti]

Joshw42, here you are recommending Asian vine snakes to Graham85, but on your thread "Ride it, girl!" you say:

I Got bitten 4x in the face and got put in the ICU. I was in there so long I am lucky we are are still alive.

An Asian Vine snake "machine gunned" my face. They are harmless to humans, unless you are allergic.

So you present an excellent example of why most people should NOT have hot herps, even the purportedly "mildly" hot herps.

As Siz said, If you know something can't hurt you, you won't respect it like you would a venomous snake, conciously or subconciously

It sounds to me like this is precisely what happened to you.

No one who doesn't have the training with hot herps should be handling them. Period.

[gonesnakee]

I like this line taken fom his online website for ordering live animals 24/7
It is VERY easy to order from us. If you decide you want a 9 ft king cobra at 3 am, call.
Lucky it wasn't a 9 ft Cobra that "machine gunned" his face eh folks :rolleyes: Mark
edit - more types of Hots listed for sale than any other kind of snake but
Notice: Josh Willmore was bitten in the face by one of his snakes and was in the ICU for nearly a week. Therefore, if you placed any orders before the 27th, please contact us.

[Chu'Wuti]

You HAVE to call to get an animal from me, because I try not to sell any species out of a persons experience range.

Does that include himself?

I reserve the right to refuse sale to an individual at any time, if I see that they are unfit to care of the animal.

Hmmmm . . .


I'm a little confused by one statement: I hardly have any of the available animals listed on the pricelist so far

but I'm not sure I really want to know. Mojave rattlesnakes are on the list. :eek:

You probably don't want to know how I'm impressed.:rolleyes:

[gonesnakee]

Pretty much every Venomous snake native to the US is listed on the list. Kind of sad really, Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

Yes, I noticed, and I agree it's pretty sad. Mojaves, though? For the general public? NO WAY! Their venom is considered to be the most toxic of any North American snake:

Mohave toxin is one of the most lethal venom components found in US snakes. from Snake Envenomation, Mohave Rattle: Overview - eMedicine Emergency Medicine (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/771586-overview)

It's just plain stupid--criminally stupid--to have Mojaves for sale to the general public. Even with the experience I've had, I wouldn't deal with Mojaves. Zoos, OK.

And this guy claims to ensure that his buyer has adequate experience . . . how? I'm not even convinced that HIS experience is adequate. All he claims is:

I am a double major in Zoology and Biology, and have been studying animals of all kinds since I could walk. Therefore I have vast knowledge in this area.

He hasn't finished his BS. He can't specialize in venomous snakes until he finishes his BS. So what "vast" knowledge is this? Does he have any specialized training at all for handling venomous snakes? Worked with a state wildlife conservation agency at least? At least I did that much.

I can't see adequate credentials for dealing with venomous snakes on his website.

[bdreptiles]

I agree with the majority here, that a venomoid is not the way to go. I also agree that an experienced mentor would be the best way to learn to handle hots.

I wouldn't however, dismiss the usefulness of practicing with a non-venomous snake. Those who posted before me are absolutely right about the hidden feeling of safety, but you can still practice safe techniques. An aggressive constrictor could be handled using the same techniques as a venomous snake. Practice with feeding, maintenance, and moving the snake around using the same type of tools you would with a venomous snake couldn't hurt. This practice could be done in preparation with and with out the mentor, to ensure your ready to begin learning to work with the venomous snakes.

Bottom line, working with constrictors is different than working with venomous snakes. There are however common lessons you can learn.

[rapidcityherp]

I also would never de venomize a snake. However I took in a albino monocle cobra that had been devenomized. Due to a change in my city law I need to sell this snake from my collection. I have a cage that is split into to sections so he can be carded for without contact. He has not grown his glands back in the 2 years I have owned him. Cory -605-390-5277 again I did not due this to him I merely took him from a handler that was not feeding him or caring for him right due to fear. I gave him a better home. I am accepting offers of both cash and trades.
prolinerapidcity@yahoo.com

[cheesman]

The species of snake, & its type of venom would determine the answer to your question. The whole thing stresses some snakes more than others, and is sometimes down-right bad for it. For instance if it uses its venom more for killing than digestion (lilke a cobra) itll probably handle being a venomoid better. But if it uses its venom for digestion, I think its very immoral (& dumb, because you probably just killed hundreds of $) to remove its venom. Use discretion, but id opt for either a hot snake, or one that is non-venomous.

[Will0W783]

If I may just chime in, I have a western hognose and a false water cobra yearling. I LOVE my FWC! He is a very alert, curious, docile snake. I do use gloves to remove him from his cage, and intend to use a snake hook when he gets too big to do it with gloves, as he is easily startled, but once he is out he is as cool as my BP and carpets. He is very curious, and looks all around and is fast. Also, hognoses are rear-fanged venomous, so to the person who mentioned having one "but no hots" it IS a hot, just a very mild hot that generally isn't harmful to people. I personally think the FWC is a good way to go because they are unlike anything else, and are a bit feistier than a hognose, so you DO need to be careful of them and handle with care and alertness. Their venom potency is currently unknown, and some people have reported heart palpitations. However, their first defense is hooding and then attempt at escape, so they are less aggressive (generally, from what I've read and my experience with Rogue, my FWC-not a hard, fast rule) than, say, a king cobra or a rattler. I wouldn't recommend handling an unfamiliar FWC without a hook and gloves, and even when "tamed" wearing gloves is always good.

[Aaron_S]

I'm sorry but you do know you basically just told someone it's ok to handle a venomous, however mild and "docile", without really anything more than the normal precautions for any fast moving snake?

Personally, I just think it's best to not do it. Weigh the risk vs. rewards and really, it's not worth it.

[Will0W783]

I guess. I handle him with gloves, but since he really isn't that harmful, I guess I didn't see the need to do more. It came out wrong- thanks for correcting it Aaron! I think it is best for each person to take precautions they see fit. I would never handle a rattler or cobra or viper- I wouldn't keep one because I wouldn't be able to get past the fact that it could kill me. Definitely use gloves and/or a hook and precautions when handling even rear-fanged snakes.

[Will0W783]

Venomous Snakes - False water cobra (http://www.repticzone.com/forums/VenomousSnakes/messages/1127578.html)

There is a good forum with owners talking about their FWCs.

[Aaron_S]

I think it is best for each person to take precautions they see fit.

Not to sound overly rude or anything but this is the mentality that gets people bit. They say "it's just a mangrove snake it won't kill me" or "it's just a rear-fanged snake, it won't kill me." These words were muttered before anyone found out that the boomslang was so deadly.

[ChadRamsey]

i have no other comment but this

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/halleyjhett/VPT6b.jpg

[Chu'Wuti]

i have no other comment but this

That settles it completely as far as I'm concerned. Not that I needed any extra persuasion . . .

[siz]

That is ........ awful. >:[ It infuriates me to see that...
Disgusting.

[jparker1167]

even tho i dont care for venomoids and have never had one i have talked to jeremy from venomoid inc a few times, also venom helps with digestions but is not needed they can eat frozen food just fine without injecting venom.

Phonenix you said you dont think venomous should be kept in someones home? is that cause your friend made tons of mistakes that you think no one else is able to keep them safely? keeping two cobras together is a bad idea to begin with cobras eat other snakes. venomous snakes are not fun and games and shouldnt be kept for that reason. how long was he in the hospital? you said he kept av how many viles did he have, who gave him the av? its a very interesting story i would like to hear more about what happend if you have the info about it.

everyone makes mistakes weather its keeping venomous reptiles or keeping large constrictors you have to pay attention and take your time

[SavannahMon!tor]

Ya I went to a reptile show in PA and got to hold a typan and a boomslang it was pretty cool but I kind of felt bad for the snake. its most likely a good idea for people who have children and or have a small house but still want a venomous snake.

[Paul_Begg]

Ya I went to a reptile show in PA and got to hold a typan and a boomslang it was pretty cool but I kind of felt bad for the snake. its most likely a good idea for people who have children and or have a small house but still want a venomous snake.

Ok so I admit I haven't posted on this forum in a fair while, but the above quote really got me.
I'd love a venomous snake, but damn my house is too small. No worries I'll get a venomoid.
I went to one "show" and i got to hold a boa. Too bad it wasn't a potential killer.
I'm really at a lose to understand this persons morals on pet keeping, let alone reptile keeping. If people want a "venomous" snake and have children in the same house, then move to the circus. Venomoids arent some cute commodity that is the product of a quick vet visit. The snake will always suffer, no matter what the outcome.
I'm keeping this short, but if anyone fancies a chat feel free to pm me.

Cheers
Paul

[Kmef07]

also there is the problem that also affects skunks that have their scent glands removed. What if they grow back? Dont get something you can't care for!! that is all that needs to be said. if you can't/dont want to take the time to learn how to handle and care for a venomous snake then don't get one. if you don't want a big snake don't get a burm. same thing applies. paul hit the nail on the head don't make the snake suffer because you want something cool.

[Chu'Wuti]

The snake will always suffer, no matter what the outcome.

Agreed!! and welcome back, Paul!

[jparker1167]

all the venomiods i have seen show no sign of suffering, and i have heard of them living long lives, if done by a vet.

[Aaron_S]

all the venomiods i have seen show no sign of suffering, and i have heard of them living long lives, if done by a vet.

What is a long life to you or the people you speak with? There isn't a snake species that has been given this surgery who has had the chance to make it through it's average lifespan. Which in reptiles is usually 10 - 20 years.

[gonesnakee]

As far as suffering goes hw would even know they were not? Reptiles hide injuries, sickness & disease really well until its too late sometimes. Also venom is the initial stage of digestion for many creatures & its harder for them to digest their food without it as well. Most folks that go on about how its no big deal etc. are the ones supporting the bucthering of them to begin with.
Many animals come with teeth, claws, venom etc. etc. If you can;t deal with it, don't get them. don't mutilate them to serve YOUR purpose! Mark

[siz]

Well said Mark! If you don't that a venomous snake has venom....GET A DIFFERENT SNAKE.

[gonesnakee]

Ya I want to get a Tiger too, but it has to be declawed & have a bunch of invasive dentistry first as well too of course. Lord forbid if it was to ever claw or bite me. Wonder if I blended all its food if I could get ALL its teeth pulled, ya then I could just cuddle & bottle feed it. I would still fell like a big strong Man having a Tiger as a pet though as its all about Status Quo right? Screw the animals they are just accessories to make me look good! :rolleyes: ALL sarcasm for those mssing it ;) Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

ALL sarcasm for those mssing it ROFL! Absolutely! And you wouldn't want it to tear up your precious upholstery, either, and declawing it will certainly prevent that! [more sarcasm, folks!!!!]

[jonny666]

So here is my take on the whole venomoid question. If you are going to get a venomoid snake you are not ready for a venomous animal it isn't a good starter snake nor is it cool for what that animal has to go through. If you want a snake that is venomous get a good mentor and work with their snakes for a while. I say awhile because everybodies diff when it come to being Quote unquote ready. You are never ready for everything.

[jparker1167]

What is a long life to you or the people you speak with? There isn't a snake species that has been given this surgery who has had the chance to make it through it's average lifespan. Which in reptiles is usually 10 - 20 years.

well i know of a exotic bird and reptile store near me that has a few venomoid on display and one is a 14 foot king cobra. i have talked to people that have kept venomoids for a number of years and the snakes do fine. well not all repitles live for 10-20 years venomoid or not. venom helps with digestion but is not needed

[gonesnakee]

So someone mangled a 14ft Cobra? This proves what? Other than they don't really have what it takes to take care of an animal without mangling it? Not sure what the points supposed to be mentioning that? Its not something they do at a young age it can be done whenever. The snake could be a full blown adult on its last leg LOL & get mangled by someone. You do realize that putting ANY reptile under for ANY reason is very dangerous & risky to its livlihood right? I guess thats not a huge concern to some of these butcheers that do not do so anyway when they mutilate the animals. Its not like they have to hear it scream in agony or anyhting while they do so if its not sedated right :rolleyes: To do it PROPERLY puts the animals at risk to do it otherwis is just plain cruel. Like going to the dentist for a root canal with nothing for pain etc.
Its in many cases a sick practice done by people with zero ethics, they figure more people will buy their imports if they are venomiod rather than they way they are intended to be. Those that do it "right" LOL aer doing so for te smae reason more often than nt to make them more marketable or make those that are not worthy have something they shouldn;t likley have anyways.
There is also the risks involved with these Venomiods when they breed as well or its unknown they are gravid when the mangling takes place. Rattlesnake, Vipers etc. live bear afterall ;) & unexpected babies come out packing as no one has had the chace to mangle them yet afterall. Then you have someone NOT worthy of dealing with venomous with WAY more than they can handle on their hands.
I think its VERY VERY WRONG anyways in case you had not figured that out yet, Mark

[jparker1167]

the king cobra was not turned into a venomoid when it was an adult, the point of saying about it was because someone said they dont live long which is not true, and the guy that has the venomoid king cobra had also kept fully hot kings and mambas. the venomoid is for a display in his store.

im not into venomoids, i think they are stupid. but i wont say stuff like they die and dont live long lives when i know thats not true. i have around 30 venomous snakes all are still hot i wouldnt have them any other way but i wouldnt make statments that a person couldnt handle a hot one unless i knew them. the guy that owns the store, knows more about reptiles then most of the people i have meet. i dont talk to him often but i know hes very good with his animals. and the king is in now way an unhealthy looking snake. maybe next time i go up ill snap some pics.

im not saying i agree with venomids or that i disagree i think the reason for the person to own one is more important, getting one to show off is the reason i cant stand, i have seen tons of people buying venomoid at hamburg, the same people i wouldnt sell a ball python too.

[gonesnakee]

I personally cannot comment on the age thing as I do not know anyone that keeps them. I'm sure some adapt well & can still "thrive".
Glad to hear you are on the right "team" :) Cheers Mark

[jparker1167]

yea im on the right team lol, i dont understand what the point in having a nonvenomous venomous snake is. a cobra that is a venomoid is pretty much just a corn snake that can hood.

[Joel La Rocque]

What do you think a "Venomoid" is going to show you? Obtaining a venomoid to see if you can handle it is the same thing as saying I can't handle it but I want to try. So you get tagged, is that going to stop you from obtaining a venomous snake? So you get bit, and say you don't get bit for a year, then you go out and get an exact replica of the venomoid and it bites you, whats the point?
Listen to me! I have been in the business for 40 years and if you even thing of trying a venomoid I can tell you that "You are NOT ready for any venomous snake rear fanged and God forbid front fanged"! These animals are not toys you show off with until the new wears off, these are deadly and dangerous snakes. I have 57 bites under my belt in 40 years, minus one finger and a whole lot of knee cartilage. Both hands are plagued with arthritis and you want a venomoid? You go to any local creek and grab the biggest Nerodia species you can find, get that bad boy home, care for it for one solid year using nothing more then a 24 inch snake hook, handle it at least four times a week and each time it tears into you pretend it was a Mojave rattlesnake. Get bitten more then four times and your dead plus each bite costs someone over $30.000 in medical bills.

If I sound bitchy it is to smarten you up. You know when it is time and you do not need to ask people who never even met you. If you have a suicide wish , get the snake. If you want to learn, find a mentor and do it right, he or she will tell you when it is time. Good luck and I mean that
Joel T. La Rocque

[Chu'Wuti]

Joel, thank you! I hope these people listen. My middle son & I had venomous snakes--not venomoids--for a couple of years. We never got tagged, but we never, ever put a hand near one of them. We got training first so we would know what NOT to do as well as what to do.

[siz]

but i wouldnt make statments that a person couldnt handle a hot one unless i knew them.
Well...would you tell a random person that you didn't know that they COULD handle a venomous snake? This is one thing you can not just assume. You can't just say "Oh, I'm sure you are good to go, here, take this Mojave!!" These aren't ball pythons and they aren't blood pythons and they aren't emerald tree boas. You MUST nkow what you are doing to accquire a venomous snakes and if you want a venmoid (this is speaking in generalities) you aren't ready for a venomous snake..

a cobra that is a venomoid is pretty much just a corn snake that can hood.
This tells me you are totally missing the point..it's more, much more, than that. As mentioned venom aids in digestion and can shorten lifespans. A venomiod snake, IMO, is a snake that has been stripped of something essential to it, and I really pity the idiot who thinks it is 'cool'....it disgusts me. As you said, a lot of the people who buy these things are the same people who should not own a BP...

/rant

[jparker1167]

when i said that a cobra was just a corn snake with a hood that was a joke, im missing the point in what ? that some people buy venomiods to be cool. no i dont think im missing the point i have seen more then a few people at shows buying venomoids so what point am i missing ? venom aids in digestion and can shorten lifespans ? snakes can digest fine without injecting venom. i feed all my hots frozen and they dont inject venom they digest just fine.. are you saying that if a snake does not inject venom into prey that they will have a shorter life? if that is what you mean then please tell me where you came up with that cause i have never heard that.

[Joel La Rocque]

When it comes to Venomoids, no one agrees on the same reason for having one. I naturally am 100% against a vet. or God preforming this procedure and I can tell you why very easily.
I look into the eyes of all my animals prior to taking them out of their tanks. Snakes have expressions and after a while you can read their eyes. I see a proud animal that can stand one on one with any other breathing animal in its path. Sometimes it wins sometimes it looses but it is always a fair fight. I see an animal that should it escape or be set free would be able to fend for itself and go about a normal life. I see an animal that either accepts me as an equal and does not strike at me when I handle it or an animal that wants no part of me and I release it. I see a fire, a sense of pride, a sense of equality in their eyes. I look into the eyes of a venomoid and I see a beaten animal that depends upon the mercy of others for its upkeep. No fire, very little pride and a ghost of its former self. It does not fear death, it awaits its end with regret, thinking of how it use to be. No, I want no part of a venomoid but should one come my way, I would treat it with all the love and respect I could afford it. Before I would take part in such an act, I prey that my end come swiftly because I had gone back on everything I believed in and loved. I want no part of a butchered snake and I would never be seen with one. Joel

[jparker1167]

I see an animal that either accepts me as an equal and does not strike at me when I handle it or an animal that wants no part of me and I release it.

i dont understand that part. are you saying that the snakes are considering you an equal and thats why they dont bite ? i saw your post where you said. "I have 57 bites under my belt in 40 years" that sounds like your proud of it to me. how did you manage so many bites. how old are, how old where you when you started keeping venomous.. that sounds like a lot of bites for a average person unless your a venom extractor. other then that i wouldnt see how the average keeper takes 2 bites a year.

[Joel La Rocque]

If I could get my hands on the animal who was responsible for strapping that snake down two things would happen: #1: He would receive the worst beating in the history of the United States and when I was through #2: I would end up in jail and go gladly knowing I did nothing wrong. Does anyone know the names and addresses of the animals / butchers who did this? If you have one ounce of integrity or conscience, you will email the names and addresses joellarocque@gmail

[Smilts]

Wow a lil over the top maybe!!

[gonesnakee]

Searching.......
Seek & Destroy! :)
Ya People can be such vile creatures afterall :(
Ask the poster about the source of the pics, posted from some site? Mark

[Chu'Wuti]

i saw your post where you said."I have 57 bites under my belt in 40 years" that sounds like your proud of it to me. how did you manage so many bites. how old are, how old where you when you started keeping venomous.. that sounds like a lot of bites for a average person unless your a venom extractor.

JParker, if you managed to see that post, how is it that you don't know the answers to your questions? Joel has good reason to have that many bites, and I'll bet a considerable amount that that number of bites is a quite small percentage of the number of times he's handled venomous snakes. You're not talking to an inexperienced hots person there, JParker. You'd know that if you'd been reading Joel's posts with more care.

I went back and found his introduction in which he states that he has sometimes handled over 40 venomous snakes in a day. Let's say he handles 30 on an average day. Multiply that times 365 days in a year and then times 40 years in the business . . . 57 divided by that number of handlings . . . very small percentage. You can do the math.

[Smilts]

57 bites for any reason even over period of 40 years appears to discredit most anyone!! Not an attack just a observation. Me Im to clumbsy to even consider working with hots, I'm pretty sure it wouldnt take long for me to DIE.........

[jparker1167]

chu'wuti no i read the post just fine the first time. you think taking almost 2 bites a year is normal for venomous keepers ? I'm sorry but handling 40 venomous snakes a day is not really a good reason to me.

i don't know if your do or don't keep hots chu'wuti but i have lots of friends that keep hots that have not had near that many bites. in the puff adder post on here i said about my friend that lives near me he started keeping hots when he was 14 and started with puff adders hes around 50 years old now so hes kept hots around 36 years. he has taken a total of 3 bites one of which was a fang that got through an air hold in a deli cup at a show. and he had 200 adult venomous breeders at one time 80 where albino cobras he hatched out more then a 100 cobras a year plus the others he kept.

so i don't agree that 57 bites in 40 year even handling 40 hots a day is a great record sorry if you don't agree. i believe Mitch from diamond reptiles has over 200 cobras alone that's not counting the rattlers gaboons puffs ect.. and i don't think hes taken any where near that amount of bites.

[heloderm]

57 bites in 40yrs is a rather bad record! I've been keeping and now breeding hots for 6 years and I have yet to take a bite (knock on wood). I have friends that have never taken a bite and have worked with hots much longer then I have. Luck has been on your side! Sounds to me like you need to take a step back and look at what has caused so many bites and what you can do to change that. The way you are going about things (handling, cage cleaning and what not) obviously isn't cutting it and your doing something drasticly wrong!

John

[MegF]

Terri Phillips handles probably an equal amount of hots working as a reptile curator at the zoo in North Carolina and heading up the venomous and I don't think he's had many bites if any. My buddy has been keeping crotalus species since he was in his teens and has had hundreds if not thousands of snakes over the years. He's in his early 50's now and received his first bite ever 6 years ago. As far as venomoids, I'm totally against them. You either gain the skills necessary to safely handle venomous, or you don't keep them. Not only is the surgery cruel to the animal (most reputable vets will not do it) it gives the keeper a false sense of security that leads to complacency. Respectfully Joel, your assessment that a snake thinks about what happens to it or is pining, respecting or anything else is giving a snake a little too much credit. A dog doesn't even think about yesterday. Today is his now. They don't lay awake at night thinking about the pound they used to be in, they just know that now they are in your house. A snake thinks about food, sex and shelter. Some recognize their keepers, tolerate us and some even seem to like us a bit, but they don't have the brain capability to pine away with grief at the loss of venom. I do think they can be traumatized or injured to the point where shock affects their systems and creates illness and a lack of well being though.

[snakedude-uk]

OK, I'm going to go back to the original point on venomoids here rather than who's been bitten by what and how many times.

As has been said already, if the surgery wasn't carried out correctly then there is a risk of the glands re-growing. As an example I quote a friend of mine -

him - "that's my east african gaboon, the venomoid one, trouble is he'll only eat live"

you can see where this is gonna go right????

me - "right, how does he manage that then?"

him - "he usually bites it and waits for it to die"

me - "how quick does that usually happen?"

him - "they normally take about 2-3 steps then keel over"

me - "right, that was the one you said was venomoid wasn't it???"

him - "oh $h1t!!!!!!!!!!"

Admittedly he had been treating the snake as fully venomous and working with it as such but this shows the mistakes that can happen. I believe having looked at the snake closely that it's venom gland had regrown as the head shape was slightly deformed possibly due to the growth of the gland, however this is no excuse for the mistakes he had clearly made!


As for how to learn with venomous, I personally feel there is no substitute for experience and the best way to gain that is to find a mentor who will show you how to handle a hook and how to balance a snake on the hooks and who will also allow you to work on their animals, hey at least it's free labour for them!! lol

Having said that, I went in at the deep end and having read about venomous snakes for many years I imported some from Africa and my first experiences were with Rhinoceros Vipers, Gaboon vipers, Spitting Cobras and Sand Snakes. In the next season when I imported some more, I bought in some Green Mambas and some Bush Vipers and they were amazing animals which I would love to have more of when I have the time and space for them.

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Kind regards,

Mike :yes:

[BruinsBeard]

As an example I quote a friend of mine -

him - "that's my east african gaboon, the venomoid one, trouble is he'll only eat live"

you can see where this is gonna go right????

me - "right, how does he manage that then?"

him - "he usually bites it and waits for it to die"

me - "how quick does that usually happen?"

him - "they normally take about 2-3 steps then keel over"

me - "right, that was the one you said was venomoid wasn't it???"

him - "oh $h1t!!!!!!!!!!"

:

Great story !

[MegF]

No matter what....a gaboon bite would not be fun...venom or no venom. Those substantial fangs will leave some pretty bad holes in your hand! I'd sure hate to trust some unknown and probably garage done surgery.

[Joel La Rocque]

I would really love to get off the who has more bites saga! I don't care if you are the only reptile handler at five Zoos, A Zoo handler may actually pick up five snakes a day, at best, if he or she is doing their job right. I was handling over 125 snakes a day seven days a week, do the math. Bill Hasst is another idiot like myself but he has over 170 bites in his career, Hershel Flowers and Tim Freide are two more people with an affliction. You can stand outside a glass cage full of taipans for 50 years and not receive one bite. What the Hell does that prove, it is MATH. If you handle that many animals a day there are going to be accidents and that's that. In the first part of this post I said I was an idiot, there you have it from the horses mouth, case closed spread the news. As for snakes thinking, they have not been studied scientifically enough to prove anything. Any one can compile up enough data to support his or her beliefs. I know my animals and neither you or anyone else will change what I have witnessed and come to believe. Ask your self, "Why can I go into a room with 30 venomous, fully functional fangs in place snakes and reach in and carry them around like a Garter snake?" I sure as hell do not have any special gifts! Maybe its my aftershave? Who knows but I do it all the time and have the pictures on hand. One person did not believe it and pestered me so much I let him order me with three snakes in any pose he wanted (Reasonable) with that days newspaper. That was the only thing that shut him up. I am not ranting, but it does get old answering the same questions over and over, I get no less then 75 emails a day from people want to know something and I answer every one of them. It is to the point of sending a form letter. I am a sixty year old normal guy that has worked with snakes for a little over forty years now and that is all I am. I might add that I have enough respect for you and the others who ask to drop a subject that I do not subscribe to, I don't hastle you, why do it to me? If you believe I am nuts, well maybe I am but lets not spread it around.

Thanks Joel

[citysnakes]

"Why can I go into a room with 30 venomous, fully functional fangs in place snakes and reach in and carry them around like a Garter snake?"

hehe, maybe thats why you got 57 in 40...

[jparker1167]

joel i was not commenting saying you where an idiot for taking that many bites. but to have that many bites there is something wrong..

yea hasst has taken lots of bites too but i would not put you and him in the same catagory he handles 1000s of snakes. also in your post before you said you handled around 40 hots a day and this post you said 125 a day? im not sure which you ment now. also you said you have had the 57 venomous bites in 40 years, on your profile you have this as your info

Handeling reptiles for over 39 years. Venomous species for 25 plus years. 57 taggs in 30 years

have you just not updated that? i have to say bragging about free handling is not something impressive to me. anyone can free handle. most venomous keeper have done those stupid things too my self included but i dont post pics of it for everyone to see. also i dont think your nuts for handling venomous mayb careless but thats about it. good luck, i hope we dont hear about you taking another bite that ends up worse.

[heloderm]

All I can do is sit back and shake my head. Some people don't get it and never learn. Not only that but they don't want to learn because they "think" they already know. Sometimes you "can't" teach an old dog new tricks.

[MegF]

We're back to highjacking the point of the thread I think, but Terry does handle the snakes he cares for in the course of his job. However, he does not freehandle the snakes. I'm not sure that's the way to work around venomous. However, I guess what this comes down to, is the venomoids leads to complacency and does not prepare a person for intact venomous since a bite from one is still only an "ow" rather than a Sh$%!

[Joel La Rocque]

There is a discrepancy due to not updating every file I am on and frankly I feel that is not necessary because not that many people care so why bother. I have records on disk for the past 9 years, as far as milking snakes I averaged out to 57 snakes a day, maybe some can do more then that, I can not sorry! There is a lot more to simply grabbing a snake and throwing it back in just to grab another one. Even if a snake is not to be milked it has to be maintained lets say ten snakes a day take a dump? I clean that so now we are up to 67 snakes a day. I have been working with VENEMOUS snakes for a grand total of 36 years now (That's exclusively venomous) I am 59 years old and started my work in July of 1969 at the age of 19, I received my first bite in 1972 in the field by stepping on a cottonmouth in South West Georgia that got me interested in venomous. lets go with the 67 snakes a day say 6 days a week for 36 years although I work 7 days a week 85% of the time but I digress. OK 313 days of the year I am found working X 50 snakes a day ( There are days that are +- so I deducted 17 snakes per day comes to 15.650 snakes a year at least. X 33 years (I knocked off 3 years because I had people working with me who were more experienced then myself so I feel that's about right) and if my math is right it comes to 60.545 snakes over my life time and you want to bicker over a total of 55 tags (two in the field). I have no time to continue with this, I asked to get onto some other subject but you insist on remaining here. For get it, my time is valuable to me, I came here to break up the monotony of being retired but there will always be some wet behind the erars kid who dreams of replacing the older dog. You don't have to fight me to do that, take the spot, its yours. I don't know your name but to all who are listening "This guy knows more them me and he is by far more experienced then I am so please listen to him. see, it was easy.

[heloderm]

Bill Hasst is another idiot like myself but he has over 170 bites in his career

Are you serious? How in the world can you even come close to comparing to Bill Hasst? He self injected so a bite to him in most cases was nothing. He's the damn pioneer! He handled and milked FAR more snakes then you could ever even dream about. He produced more antivenin then just about anyone out there. Bill has got to be one of the most if not the most successful man in the biz when it comes to venom.

WOWWWWWwwwwwwwwwww......LOL I think you should stop, don't post anymore....turn off the computer, and go think about what your typing!!!!!

Then again, this could be quite entertaining, what other crap do you have to write?

To bash a man like that....

[jonny666]

Why can't we just go back to the original question about venomoids? I didn't think this was a bash peoples opinions forum. Who's to say what is to many bites? He obviously loves what he does and has his own cares and concerns when it comes to snakes. Paul thank you for your posts and keep them coming. Anyways how about them venomoids?

[jparker1167]

I came here to break up the monotony of being retired but there will always be some wet behind the erars kid who dreams of replacing the older dog. You don't have to fight me to do that, take the spot, its yours. I don't know your name but to all who are listening "This guy knows more them me and he is by far more experienced then I am so please listen to him. see, it was easy.

joel are you talking about me in that post? lol wet behind the ear kid. i guess i have not kept venomous for as long as you, but i also have not been bit either. no one is better then anyone else, everyone has their ways of doing stuff. but you just seem to think you are better. telling people that they are not ready to handle a puff adder. because they have only 6 years of experience handling cobras and gaboons. then you always seem to throw it out that you have taken 57 bites in 40 years like that has anything to do with how capable the other person is at handling hots. it looks like you believe the snakes love you and enjoy your company with the comments you make like this one

"I truly believe that constant contact, even if is only face to face from behind the glass is one of the most important aspects of NOT becoming a bite victim."

it would seem to me that it has not worked for you over the last 40 years. you seem to think that talking about how you will reach in a cage and pick up a venomous snake and walk around the room is something that should gain respect, i believe that its shows a lack of respect for the snakes and does nothing to benefit you the snake or any venomous keeper, the last thing we need is another bite to get news attention.

you also believe that anyone that wants to keep a venomous snake should have to take a good bite from one first. right? not to be mean but that is the dumbest thing i have ever read. what would that do to help anyone ? i don't understand the point in that at all. what if the person die or had to have a limb amputated? you are the only venomous keeper i have ever seen tell people they should take a bite instead of preventing it.

i guess we will just have to disagree.

[sassamagoo]

ok, now you've agreed to disagree, can we please drop this now? All the bashing and bickering is getting ridiculous.

To quote you jparker "No one is better then anyone else, everyone has their ways of doing stuff." So let it go. Agree to disagree, like you said. I want to learn about venomoids, facts and such, not listen to this juvenile bashing anymore. Start a "We hate joel" thread if you want to do that. Flaming sucks.

Maybe Joel has had a lot of bites in your opinion. You may be right, but does it really matter or affect your life? Really?! Just don't take his advice then.

Lets get back to the topic here, I'd like to actually learn something.

Sass

[heloderm]

Sorry but it's extemely hard not to bash people like this that seem to work so hard to destroy something good we have. They are extremely blinded!

[jparker1167]

yea sass the bites do affect me if you havent noticed all the laws they try to pass on reptiles. when a person gets bit by a venomous snake they keep we start to hear about bans bacause people think only a zoo should be allowed to have a venomous snake.

everyone makes mistakes. even experienced people get bit now and then, but when you freehandle and take a bite a year its not helping anyone that keeps reptiles. i never that i hated joel.


i dont think there is much more that can be said on the topic of venomoids either you decide to get one or you dont. everyone has gave their opinions. its up to you if you want to get one and no one can decide for you.

[MegF]

I'm not sure what else there is to say about venomoids. I'd say most of us are against them due to the cruelty of procedure, the lack of qualified veterinarians who will even do the surgery and the obvious possibility of the surgery not being done properly. Working with a venomoid will not prepare you for an intact venomous (at least I think that's the consensus here) because you still know you don't have to worry. In my book, if you want venomous, get venomous. Get intact venomous....but do your homework. Work with a reputable person with venomous experience if you can. Read, practice safe handling with your non venomous species (may as well use them-it's the same mentality as a venomoid) until you are competant with a snake hook, tongs and moving the snake from one place to the other without a bite. For what it's worth, I don't think I'd like to be the one that helps perpetuate the sale of mutilated snakes by buying one of these.

[Joel La Rocque]

OK folks, get back to the venomoid questions, and listen to this heloderm, with his profile, I guess I was wrong, he has researched my name especially about the self immunization bite. This guy is the guy that owns the venomoids and tells everyone he is a cool handler, smarten up folks.

[jparker1167]

I'm not sure what else there is to say about venomoids. I'd say most of us are against them due to the cruelty of procedure, the lack of qualified veterinarians who will even do the surgery and the obvious possibility of the surgery not being done properly. Working with a venomoid will not prepare you for an intact venomous (at least I think that's the consensus here) because you still know you don't have to worry. In my book, if you want venomous, get venomous. Get intact venomous....but do your homework. Work with a reputable person with venomous experience if you can. Read, practice safe handling with your non venomous species (may as well use them-it's the same mentality as a venomoid) until you are competant with a snake hook, tongs and moving the snake from one place to the other without a bite. For what it's worth, I don't think I'd like to be the one that helps perpetuate the sale of mutilated snakes by buying one of these.

great post meg...


joel i know heloderm from other sites and he works with venomous snakes not venomoids i believe hes handled everthing from copperheads, beaded lizards to gabbons cobras and mambas. you should know the facts about people you talk about before you make your comments, same as the comment you made about fry not talking to anyone and that he has guys that do that for him, he got a good laugh from that.

[heloderm]

OK folks, get back to the venomoid questions, and listen to this heloderm, with his profile, I guess I was wrong, he has researched my name especially about the self immunization bite. This guy is the guy that owns the venomoids and tells everyone he is a cool handler, smarten up folks.

Hhhhmmm...I'd rather not turn this into a pissing match. I don't work with venomoids nor will I ever. As Jparker has stated I've worked with many many species over the years. Mamba's, taipans, cobra's, rattlers, you name it, I've probably worked with it.

I will add....I'm smart, I don't average just about A BITE A YEAR! I do things safely the way they should be done. For people like you, there is Darwin's Law. Sooner or later....for you, most likely sooner....

Sorry pal, not going to have any luck bashing me....

[MegF]

The one thing I am curious about is if the snakes act any differently. For instance, cats that have been declawed generally become more aggressive and will bite more readily. They seem to instinctively know that they are lacking a defense mechanism. Now the venom on a snake is more often for offense (i.e. food aquisition) but it can be used defensively. The exception I would think would be spitters who use it for both.Has anyone here worked with venomoids and found them to be any different temperament wise than intact? I know it would be difficult to assertain whether or not that particular snake would have been a jerk no matter what, but has anyone worked with multiple animals from the same species?

[Joel La Rocque]

They tend to be in a state of shock until the end. The ones that end up being rescued here are in sad shape and even though they are youths' they last only a year or two. As for temper, they retreat into their hides and stay there most of thew time. They know what has happened as far as I am concerned.

[siz]

That is a fantastic question Meg. I'm definaltey curious as well.

[Will0W783]

They tend to be in a state of shock until the end.. Poor things- I imagine it's painful and even after they've recovered from the pain, they must realize that prey doesn't die when they bite it, and become accustomed to not being able to defend themselves/hunt. I'm a neuroscientist, and we have a term for that- "learned helplessness". It's basically the animal equivalent to clinical depression and can be demonstrated in just about every species that has an actual brain, from reptiles to mice to cats and dogs, to monkeys.

[siz]

That's super interesting - I wasn't sure if reptiles had the capacity to realize they were venomoid. I would also think the procedure would be very painful. What do you do with live feeders that can't kill the prey with their venom?

[Will0W783]

As far as I know, venomoids can only be fed f/t, so I don't know what people do if the snake wont' take that. I imagine they only do surgery once they've gotten the snake to reliably take f/t, otherwise it just wouldn't stand a chance.

[Smilts]

I was just talking to guy on a chat room... He and i agree that venomoids are pure BS however had one point he had to baby sit some venomoids, and said they were plenty fiesty when he kept them but that like was stated they only lived a few years slightly more than 1 but not to long really...

[jparker1167]

all the venomiods i have seen act just like the venomous ones. they bite at you the same way. i dont believe the snakes will know they are venomoid now, i also dont believe they will become depressed

venomiods should be feed frozen or fresh killed there is no reason to put a live animal in with a snake that has no venom.

good topic tho

[heloderm]

all the venomiods i have seen act just like the venomous ones. they bite at you the same way. i dont believe the snakes will know they are venomoid now, i also dont believe they will become depressed

venomiods should be feed frozen or fresh killed there is no reason to put a live animal in with a snake that has no venom.

good topic tho

Completely agree, the ones I've seen have been health and nippy, they don't seem to know the difference.

[MegF]

Are the ones that are nippy a species that generally tend to be nippy? Do you notice a difference between venomoids and intact among the same species? My eyelash viper for instance is pretty laid back. He rarely if ever strikes at you..occasionally at the water when he gets misted and at the food of course. Otherwise when I take him out to clean the cage or whatever, or to photograph, he just hangs out on the hook. If he was turned into a venomoid, would he become more aggressive? I'm not convinced that snakes have the capacity to be "depressed". They may not be well enough to thrive though and I guess that's basically the same. Mice, monkeys and other higher order mammals are a whole different ballgame. Their brains are far more complex than a reptiles. Either way, I can't imagine it doesn't cause a great deal of stress and pain to the snake. It's in an area that houses some of the most delicate tissue in the body...namely the brain and sinuses and in reptiles, the sensing organs. Any messing around in that area can't be good.

[Will0W783]

Oh yeah, I'm not convinced they can become depressed either. I was just stating the term for the condition Joel described and that as far as I know it has been demonstrated in reptiles (not sure of the species, although I think agamid lizards). I don't know what my snakes can or cannot think- some of them just seem to exist, and other seem to be looking for my attention when I'm in the room. As humans, we cannot really and truly know what goes through another species' mind, but they are inarguably primitive and incapable of higher emotions like love.

[Smilts]

I have alot of snakes and one tegu, the tegu seems far smarter than my snakes just thought id share as i found it odd.

[MegF]

Lizards on the whole seem to enjoy interaction with humans far more than snakes, although I have several snakes in my collection that seem to tolerate and even enjoy handling by me.

[Smilts]

LOL my tegu hates me!!! Just seems smarter....


By and large I feel like snakes arent going to feel higher emotions. I can see physical trauma from a badly done butcher job surgery affecting them in a way that might at a glance appear to be emotion. Of course this is just my opinion.

[heloderm]

Coy as a whole lizards are far smarter then snakes. Then again you must also take species into account. Mamba's and Scrubs are very smart. Ball pythons not to much. Monitors and tegus are very smart.

From what Joel has said, it sounds as if the venomoids he has seen were extremely stressed and possibly kept in the wrong conditions.

[Smilts]

I have to agree thats what it sounds like to me....

[Joel La Rocque]

The intelligence of a snake is relevant to the person making the observation. If I look at a butchered snake and see anger and distrust, you might see sadness or some other signal being sent from the snake. One thing that is for sure in my situation: Snakes from bad homes take almost twice as long to calm and become manageable, as do snakes taken from the wild or from good homes. Something causes this and I believe it is a thinking process as well as the snakes ability to compile information and file it away.

[heloderm]

hmmm....I haven't found that to be the truth. I think you attempt to read into these animals and make your own assumptions.

[Will0W783]

I would agree that, depending on the species of snake, snakes that come from "bad" households, i.e. ones that have not been handled, or have been winged around, repeatedly grabbed suddenly, or otherwise irritated and pestered, will be more aggressive than snakes that have been handled gently and calmly. I do not, however, think this has as much to do with intelligence as with simple fear conditioning. In the wild, in order to survive, an animal has to be able to associate certain events with certain outcomes, to a certain degree. A snake in the wild that approaches a larger snake or wildcat or some other predator and gets almost killed will learn not to do that. Is it a smart snake? Not necessarily; it's just being conditioned. The more something happens with the same result, the stronger the conditioning. This is what happens when you "tame" a snake. You repeatedly slowly approach it, gently lift it, and handle it, then put it back with no ill effects to the snake. It begins to associate the "big, warm, thing" with no danger, and will eventually cease to defend itself as it's learned no harm will come to it and it's a waste of energy. Likewise, a snake that is repeatedly grabbed hard, or has things waved in its face until it strikes at them, will become more aggressive, as it is constantly being presented with things and situations that aggravate its defense responses. It becomes conditioned that the "big warm things" mean stress and fear and danger- not necessarily death, but a situation that is uncomfortable for the snake. One can condition many species, even planarian flatworms can be conditioned and "taught" to swim mazes. Are they "smart"? Not necessarily, we're just manipulating their natural instinct systems. Know that your snakes do not love you, nor do they respect you, or despise you, or appreciate you, or anything other than tolerate you as they've associated you with situations that do not cause them alarm or discomfort.

[MegF]

I agree with you Kimberly. In general I've found if I gently pick up a wild snake instead of grabbing, they rarely if ever bite. In fact I can say I've never had a wild snake bite me unless I grabbed it or was manipulating it in some way. I had a gopher snake get into one the wire cages with our Mojaves at a snake avoidance training seminar and it was partway thru the wire. I had to get it out and it objected to me forcing it out of the wire squares and bit me once. I didn't do anything so it ceased attempting to bite and I did get it out of there. Most often slow and gentle will get you no response from a snake except they either just hang out or they slowly attempt to get away.

[Joel La Rocque]

There are only two of us here now maintaining the animals, we have one Cottonmouth that strikes at Phil every time he walks by? I can pick him up with out problem and with out the use of a hook! Spook or grab anything and it will strike but why does it strike at Phil and not me? I doubt it is scent because the tanks have fresh air pumped in and we are on the outside of the sealed top.

[heloderm]

Joel, your still an idiot free handling venomous! And the bite count continues!

[Joel La Rocque]

Maybe, but I am one who made it and am enjoying a nice six figure retirement with a constant flow of people calling and asking to interview me, I use my real name not one and address with a profile, I visit other countries and get paid a good chunk of change for whats in my head. But if I were an insignificant nobody I would be a little green to. That is the difference between a wanna bee and a real expert. Type my name in a search engine and compare it next to yours. Go back and sit down, these people want to learn something not listen to you rave on. tell you what, I will leave if you will and that will leave this board free for those who want to get on with life! Your turn sonny.

[heloderm]

Maybe, but I am one who made it and am enjoying a nice six figure retirement with a constant flow of people calling and asking to interview me, I use my real name not one and address with a profile, I visit other countries and get paid a good chunk of change for whats in my head. But if I were an insignificant nobody I would be a little green to. That is the difference between a wanna bee and a real expert. Type my name in a search engine and compare it next to yours. Go back and sit down, these people want to learn something not listen to you rave on. tell you what, I will leave if you will and that will leave this board free for those who want to get on with life! Your turn sonny.

Sorry Joel, don't care for who you are or your ignorance/stupidity when dealing with venomous. I'm far younger then you and don't claim to be an expert by any means. I must be a step ahead as I have never taken a bite. You have nothing but insignifiant things to teach that will get someone hurt. Raving about being bitten almost once a year for the life of your career. I've been around the hobby for many years.....funny I have never heard of you, for that matter neither have any of my friends some of which have been around far longer then yourself. The pissing match is over, just try not to get one of these people asking for advice killed!

John

[Smilts]

I actually did find that name alot on forums mostly like this one though..... ;) This has gotten beyond silly BTW!
Joels hands probly hurt from typing(what with the bites) my eyes have started to bleed from reading this crap, i cant stop though dont know why and venomoids suck BLAH BLAH BLAH!

[Joel La Rocque]

Buu's eye!

[siz]

This thread has gotten way off topic. Can we either get back on topic or end this thread now?

[Will0W783]

I agree. While the original topic of this thread is a complex, controversial and thought-provoking issue, I am quickly tiring of the "pissing contest" that has ensued. I for one have enjoyed everyone's input and opinions, although I may not agree with each and every one, I do respect everyone's right to their own opinions. I think in Joel's case, the fact that he has been working free-handling vens for some 30 years and is still alive, says something for him. If nothing else, the man's got balls. His is a unique and interesting position on reptile mentality, and while I am not fully convinced, I think we need more people who view the animals as intelligent, feeling beings and not a means to profit or a way to pick up chicks (not that anyone here does, just in general in the world). That being said, I think he should make it clear that he does not advocate the free-handling of venomous animals by the average lay keeper. His being a commercial venom extractor probably allows for him to have large quantities of antivenins on hand so he can immediately treat himself in the case of a bite. (I do hope that you don't wish to encourage anyone to free-handle vens, but if you do so yourself, it's your choice and cool that you are able to do so). Jparker, heloderm, Greg Fry, I also appreciate and have enjoyed everything you guys have said that is related to the original venomoid question and not an attack on Joel. You guys obviously know your stuff as well, and it is good to hear from people who've worked with these animals for years.
But, I beg you guys, from the bottom of my heart, PLEASE STOP WITH THE BASHING! We're all getting tired of it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can say that with every trash-talking post you make (Joel included) my respect for you decreases incrementally.

[sassamagoo]

Thank you Kimberly, well said and I agree!

[Will0W783]

No problem, I'm really getting tired of this.

[MacAdder]

This is an ethical debate and those without ethics or morals are those who keep or want to keep venomoids. Save a snake by killing a venomiod keeper.

[Janek]

Graham 85 I would start of with something along the lines of a hognose snake haha...but in all seriousness your really have to be somewhat stupid or just have balls of steel. To know that you may be bit and that not all hospitals or states have either anti venom or that it will be legal to house that certain snake. Check regulations and double check that idea. Goodluck

[emseeKAY]

can't we all just get along, ill add my two cents in here (might as well)
- I think venomoids are immoral and i feel disgusted at the thought of owning one
- eventually i want a FWC!
- Willow, you're a neuroscientist, now i feel stupid for making my way towards policing :( lol!
- Joel La Rocque (hope i spelled that right!) i think you would be a great mentor and i respect you quite a bit, i enjoy reading your posts!

overall, i find hots an interesting topic, that being said, i would never own one, i dont believe in myself enough to handle a hot whereas i can trust myself to whole-heartedly take care of colubrids, boa's and Pythons, (even if i love them more than they love me! hahaha :D) i think everyone here has had different experiences and should be respected. i think that (much to my dismay) lizards such as agamids and tegus are much smarter than snakes, whereas snakes are more instictual in their behaviour than "thinkers" (if that made sense) I love all my animals and would love to own many more, i digress. i would never own an animal myself without doing extensive research, and as sometimes i ask for help, i am attempting to get a grasp on what others have done in order to correct issues or problems i have run into (we all have those).

anywho sorry about the run-on...paragraph, and i believe i covered everything in this MONSTER of a thread lol:) ill shut up already... im outtie!

Peace, Love, and Rubber Gloves!

~ Sean!

[MacAdder]

Hi Sean
I was involved in a debate regards venomoids on another forum this week and the idea is generally unaccepted. Mark O`shea got involved and made some real great point why this practice is so barbaric. (Sorry but I am very anti-venomoid as you can see)
Regards
Shaun

[emseeKAY]

exactly i dont think i could ever purchase and care for something which has literally been torn apart to make my life easier. ive read quite a few great points and even some which i didnt really understand, although ive just started in this hobby i love reading, learning, and experiencing everything about it, as it comes to venomoids, i dont ever want to be a part of that.

P.s. i like your name ;) hahaha :)

[MacAdder]

Help put an end to this practice - Please sign this petition
http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/index.php

[emseeKAY]

done!

also the guys name is Hoser...

hehehe maybe you have to be Canadian... ;)