Ball Breeding Question-can't find an answer

[angie_85]

I have recently acquired 3 ball pythons. One male and 2 females. Here is the part that you're all going to be mad at me for: they are all housed together:eek:...lol. Ok so I got them a few months ago and they have apparntly all been housed together for a few years now, since they were all young. They are absolutely not related so I have no worries in that department, should they happen to breed. Now, I have read about the whole cooling them down and stuff before breeding them, which first of all makes no sense to me. I can not find any answers anywhere else so I have come here for some answers. Question 1: Why the whole cooling/fasting process? These snakes live pretty much on the equator, right? So why on earth do they need to be cool before breeding? I know there is a better word for it than "cooling" but I can't think of it right now. My second question is: Without the whole "cooling" process, and seeing as they have been housed together pretty much since babies, will they ever breed? They have not yet, they are all approximately 2.5-3.5 years old. I am assuming that since they have not bred so far that they will not until they are ready. I have no plans on seperating them at all. I would love to hear anyone's opinions about if you think they will breed, if they absolutely need the "cooling":rolleyes: and any helpful opinions. Thank you.

[Smilts]

There is good info online about brumating snakes to prepare for breeding. I believe it is about reseting there biological clock so that there body knows to get ready for breeding. A female also needs to be around 1700-1900 grams before that time to have enough weight for healthy breeding. And it isnt that people get mad about housing snakes together its that it truly is not good for them!!!

[mykee]

1. Just because the previous owner was ignorant to the husbandry of a ball pythons, does not mean you should follow suit. Separate your ball pythons. There is no excuse for keeping them together.
2. Inbreeding is very common in the ball python world and for that matter, almost any other species as well. In order to prove out a trait, inbreeding is necessary and will do not damage to potential offspring. That is a non-issue.
3. "Cooling" your ball pythons is done to mimic the rainy season of the western part of Africa. It's done to cue the animals to the breeding season.
4. Much like an old couple who have been married for fifty years, balls that are kept together often show no interest in breeding. Again, separate your ball pythons.
5. There are quite literally tens of thousands of websites dedicated at least in part to breeding ball pythons. You need to perform a better search online for information.

[Kmef07]

Much like an old couple who have been married for fifty years, balls that are kept together often show no interest in breeding

that is absolutely hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol. im snowed in at my job and bored as hell and that just made me bust out laughing.

[citysnakes]

if you have no plans on seperating them at all then you should also have no plans for breeding them either. if youre going to ignore their basic husbandry requirements, then attempting advanced ball python keeping techniques should not be an issue for you. you should even consider giving the animals to someone who will properly care for them.

dont think im "getting mad" at you here but you come on a website asking for advice from people who are passionate about the animals that they care for and expect them to help a person who straight up ignores the basic needs of those animals with no plans on ever providing them.

the info youre looking for is a pretty popular topic and theres lots of places to get the information you cant seem to find anywhere. books, websites and many breeders will gladly help.

so i guess my helpful opinion would be to do some research on ball pythons, get some experience caring for them properly and research some more before you attempt to breed them.

good luck.

[mykee]

What Julian, said. If you're looking for someone to tell you that what you are doing is OK, and for advice without fixing what is wrong with your husbandry, you're not going to get it here. Maybe you should look elsewhere.

[angie_85]

I appreciate all of the info that has been provided. I didn't mean that I couldn't find any info on breeding them, just none on if they will actually breed when they are housed together. I had the same thoughts that they may not even get interested if they have lived their whole lives together. I came on here asking for help because many people have different opinions about all topics on here. I appreciate everyone's input and if I am convinced that they should not be housed together, I will seperate them. At this point I do not see any harm in keeping them together. I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, I just have a different opinion. I have read many posts on other sites about this topic and I do understand people's concerns to an extent. I do understand now why they have to go through the "cooling" process. Thank you very much for that bit of information. Asside from that I have read so much on how to breed these snakes that I'm sure I will be dreaming of incubating eggs tonight :D I am pretty new at owning snakes, I had a corn for a few years but they are quite different from pythons so I would say that I am a beginner, this is why I am asking for advice. If I am doing something wrong, I want to understand why it is wrong. I don't want people to agree with me that anything is ok if they don't think that, I just don't understand why people are so against it. I want to be more knowledgable about the species, and I assumed that talking to people that are experienced would help. I'm not sure if anyone actually read what I wrote but my second question about breeding was:"...seeing as they have all been housed together pretty much since babies, will they ever breed?" not that i can't find info on breeding them, but will they be interested in breeding seeing as they spend all of their time together. Maybe I should have worded it better? Sorry if I have irritated anyone out there, just thought that asking questions was going to be a lot better experience than sitting here wondering and googling endlessly.

[angie_85]

I appreciate all of the info that has been provided. I didn't mean that I couldn't find any info on breeding them, just none on if they will actually breed when they are housed together. I had the same thoughts that they may not even get interested if they have lived their whole lives together. I came on here asking for help because many people have different opinions about all topics on here. I appreciate everyone's input and if I am convinced that they should not be housed together, I will seperate them. At this point I do not see any harm in keeping them together. I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, I just have a different opinion. I have read many posts on other sites about this topic and I do understand people's concerns to an extent. I do understand now why they have to go through the "cooling" process. Thank you very much for that bit of information. Asside from that I have read so much on how to breed these snakes that I'm sure I will be dreaming of incubating eggs tonight :D I am pretty new at owning snakes, I had a corn for a few years but they are quite different from pythons so I would say that I am a beginner, this is why I am asking for advice. If I am doing something wrong, I want to understand why it is wrong. I want to be more knowledgable about the species, and I assumed that talking to people that are experienced would help. I'm not sure if anyone actually read what I wrote but my second question about breeding was:"...seeing as they have all been housed together pretty much since babies, will they ever breed?" not that i can't find info on breeding them, but will they be interested in breeding seeing as they spend all of their time together. Maybe I should have worded it better? Sorry if I have irritated anyone out there, just thought that asking questions was going to be a lot better experience than sitting here wondering and googling endlessly.

[Smilts]

1. Just because the previous owner was ignorant to the husbandry of a ball pythons, does not mean you should follow suit. Separate your ball pythons. There is no excuse for keeping them together.
4. Much like an old couple who have been married for fifty years, balls that are kept together often show no interest in breeding. Again, separate your ball pythons.

N one is mad but you made the statement that you did not intend to seperate them ever. Mykee put forth good info here

[angie_85]

I do agree that there was a lot of good information given. I still do not plan on seperating them, unless I come across a good reason why. As of yet, I have not. I dod a ton more reading and actually founf some good information on a fish forum in a discussion about snakes. I do have more questions but am now a bit scared to ask. I don't want to have any arguments, I am doing what I think is right and just need input on the things that I think that I need to do better. I am sorry if 99% of people disagree with me. In my mind I am caring for the snakes the best I can.

[Smilts]

What would you consider a good reason ? The fact that its stressfull for solitary animals seems a fair reason. I dont mean itt as a argument but really to ask for information then disregard it as not as good as what you allready believe to be true seems silly. The snakes need to thermoregulate ther bodys they shouldnt have to fight with each other, however passivly, to get the best spots in the enclosure. They should have there own enclosure then its not a problem. Dont be scared away from asking when the answers arent what you want to hear, everyone is just trying to help you and your animals

[angie_85]

I never asked about housing them together, whether it was a good or bad idea. If I am doing something wrong by housing them together, fine but the reason I am asking questions is so that I do not make any other mistakes, right?

[siz]

It is a mistake to house them together. Sorry, I'm not trying to come off as attacking you, and nobody else here is either, we just want the best for your snakes. If you are new to the hobby, take some advice from people who are seasoned veterans, so to speak. Mykee being one of them. Personally I agree with him and Julian, especially in that if you are going to ignore their husbandry and keep 3 BPs together, maybe now is not the right time to breed them. Also if you are new to BPs, wait until you have the husbandry down pat before you take on the burden of caring for hatchlings.
Again, I'm not trying to come off rude or condescending, I really do just want your snakes to be happy and healthy, and keeping 3 together can not achieve that.
Good luck though, post some pictures of your snakes, we love to see pictures.

[citysnakes]

In my mind I am caring for the snakes the best I can.

then if youre fine with being ignorant thats cool but i really think you should research the pros and cons of keeping your animals together and then make a desicion on your own.

in the end it comes down to whats best for the animals not the keeper.

[Aaron_S]

These are some pictures of snakes that were housed together that are relatively the same size. I hope this helps you in your decision.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/boaball.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/boaball2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/godzilla99/boaball3.jpg

[mykee]

"I am doing what I think is right and just need input on the things that I think that I need to do better. I am sorry if 99% of people disagree with me. In my mind I am caring for the snakes the best I can. "
Do you think there is a REASON that 99% of ball owners think it's wrong?!
Originally I thought it was ignorance, now I'm pretty sure it's stupidity.

[angie_85]

I have seen those pictures before, and also realised that one was a python, and the other a boa. There was no mention of how they were kept. If they were fed regularly, if they had just been introduced to each other, that is my opinion. I am not worried one bit that they will eat each other as long as I am feeding them as often as they need it, and have all of their other housing requirements met. I also have heard that they will "fight" for the best hides, heat, and all that. Everything in there for them is big enough to fit all 3. People say that they are not commonly found together in the wild, but there is so much to be said about that. In the wild lions eat hyenas, but we keep dogs and cats as pets together in the same home. Your house dog could eat your cat if it wanted to...but why do people not worry about that? Because the animals are "tamed". When you go to open your snakes cage and it comes right over to you, waiting to be picked up...is that not tame? More arguments are about if one has the scent of food on it, another might eat it. If they are full and fed properly, I do not see this happening. I do know people that are experienced breeders of snakes and other reptiles and they house more than one snake together, depending on the species. More arguments are that they DO NOT like the company of each other. These 3 adore each other. They are always together. If I have one in my hand and the other two are somewhere else, the one I have will go searching for the others. In my opinion, they do like each other and there is no proof out there to say otherwise. They can not communicate and say whether they like each other or not, but their actions suggest to me that they do. As for breeding them, I think that it would be a huge challenge, I know that they are not ready, I just was wondering if they would breed in there if they are all kept together. Yes I would love to try and have some baby snakes someday, but not right now. If they were to mate right now I would have a difficult situation on my hands. I am happy to hear that they likely will not breed if they are kept together. On a different note, I weighed them today, just to see how big they were and was largely dissapointed.I was told that the larger female was over 3 years old, and from what I have read should be of breeding weight at that age, not that I want to right now, I was just checking out of curiosity. I am assuming that she is either a year less than what I was told, or very small. Now I figure this will result in another reason why they should not be housed together and if for some reason that could be a factor, I will have them seperated as soon as possible. If someone could tell me some normal weights at ages 1, 2, and 3 years of age that would really help. I do have a few pictures of them...just not sure how to do the whole photobucket thing... Thank you all for helping, sorry if I was ever rude, and I hope nobody hates me just yet :)

[mykee]

One year old female "average" weights: 300g-1000g
Two years: 700g-2500g
three years: 800g-3500g

"and I hope nobody hates me just yet "
Hate you, no. Feel sorry for you.

And the sky is green because I say so, there's no convincing me because I'm right and that's that!
I personally can't be bothered trying to explain ad nauseum or to convince anyone how to keep proper husbandry. I've been around this hobby for enough years now to know who is worth it and who isn't.
My suggestion to everyone here is to save it for someone who cares about the well-being of thier animals.

[citysnakes]

angie, your snakes being always together is most likely a sign of competition for the best area inside the enclosure. you may not ever see them fight but know that they are constantly competing to survive amongst each other. i dont think your snakes adore each other but i do think that when they are seperated they will do much better alone. you might see better feeding responses and faster weight gain. by seperately housing your snakes you will have animals that are less stressed and maybe even more handleable, they will feed better, grow better and eventually breed(if that is your plan). im glad you are planning on seperating them.

i cant tell you what normal a weight would be for ball pythons of those ages because they all grow at different rates. i think a normal weight of a ball python at any age is one of an individually housed, healthy animal that is consistently feeding on, lets say, a reasonable feeding schedule.

[Chu'Wuti]

One year old female "average" weights: 300g-1000g
Two years: 700g-2500g
three years: 800g-3500g

i cant tell you what normal a weight would be for ball pythons of those ages because they all grow at different rates.

Looks to me like you guys are essentially in agreement--those weight ranges are quite broad.

Angie, I know you're feeling pretty attacked and defensive right now. The guys want what's best for the snakes, period. They have a LOT of experience--way more than I do, and I've kept various snakes for well over two decades. Mykee, Aaron, & Julian really know BPs, and if they tell me that I shouldn't be doing something or should be doing something, I give them the respect they deserve by listening because I want my BP to do well.

One thing I will add is that snakes & other reptiles do not have emotional feelings for each other or us the way mammals do. We can wish, but it won't happen.

[angie_85]

From what I was told, the older female is supposed to be at least 3-3.5 years old, I have their weights in their room but my boyfriend is sleeping right now and I dare not wake him as he is working the midnight shift. From what I remember the older female was around 700g, and the two smaller (supposedly 2-2.5 years old are between 450 and 550g. If their ages are accurate, they are quite underweight. I will try and get a hold of the man I bought them from, but doubt I will have any luck. The smaller ones look about the same size as the ones at my local pet store, which are 08 ball pythons. Now I am beginning to worry about them, if the ages were accurate. See it's worth still helping someone even if you think they are wrong mykee, You all may just change my mind about housing them together. Ok so they do eat very well, as far as I know. I read that as a general rule to feed them nothing bigger than twice the length of their heads, which I have done. Apparently before they were eating medium size rats every 3 weeks. I thought that wasn't right so I have been feeding them the biggest mice I can find every week to two weeks. So which is best to feed them? Larger rats that seem way to big, but every 3 weeks? Or smaller prey every week or 2?

[herpocrite27]

My BP is 40 inches long, I feed her medium size rats every week, sometimes two during the summer. During the winter she wont eat rats, so I feed her 2 large mice a week. You would be amazed how large a rat they can swallow. If the prey is to large, they will throw it up. As far as I have read, the rats are better, because they have bigger bones, meaning more calcium. They also are more meat and goodies instead of fluff like a mouse. If it wil eat a small rat a week or two mice a week, I believe it would perfect. I hope this helps. Good luck

[Smilts]

They sound small for their ages(but that doesnt mean anything bad all in of it self) my male 4 yr old is 1300 grams. I feed all of mine 1 med rat every two weeks, the smallest is just over 700 grams. The body diameter is a better measure of what size to feed it, I think at least on smaller snakes it is. I have far more exp with corns. Stress can affect a snakes weight and growth just like stress can severly affect humans or any animal.

[mykee]

For comparison, the females that I held back from this years breedings (born between July 2008 and October 2008), which are also housed properly) range in weight from about 450g-725g. You do the math.

[Kmef07]

ya use what coy suggested the same size or slightly bigger than the biggest part of the snake. also i would feed rats becuase they will let the snake grow faster and from what i was told by my breeder much more nutritious. when i had my ball she ate 1 med rat pup every 7 days or so. but i was conditioning her to breed so i was trying to get the weight up. if they truely are 3yrs old they don't need to eat as much as mine did because mine was still not even a year and she was growing quick but if you are trying to get weight on then just feed rats and increase the feeding schedule. but if you can see the skin between the scales when the snake is stretched out (not coiled) then it is fat. other people may have other opinions but this has worked for me.

[angie_85]

Ok I just checked around a bit and found that they should be fed nothing bigger than the thickest part of it's body. Good to know, as they can eat much larger than a mouse, but if you go by the rule that they shouldn't eat anything bigger than twice the size if their heads, a mouse would be all they can handle right now. I can getthe big girl to eat that darn nibbly male rat that I hate...lol. I have their weights: female 1-772g, female2-548g, and the male is 466g. I am hoping that they were about a year off on the ages, which would mean that they are all at a decent weight. Another question: Why is it that for breeding purposes you would "cool" them down around October (some sites say as late as January)? Why can you not do this at any time of year? I mean if your house stays atthe same temperature all year round, the snakes would have no idea what season it is right? May be a stupid question but I might as well ask right.

[Chu'Wuti]

Angie, another "rule of thumb" Julian once suggested to me is to feed a prey item that is about 10% of the weight of the snake. It seems your BPs could easily be eating rats or at least rat pups, and if you want to have them eating rats after they get bigger, you might want to stick with rats now, because it can be a real challenge to switch them off mice--I know, because mine has (so far) refused to switch.

Good luck!

[angie_85]

That is another thing I will consider next time I go get food for them, if the rats don't start breeding soon. They were on rats before I got them, I just couldn't get any the right size at the pet store so I got mice instead. the larger female and the male don't mind either way. They will take live or dead mice or rats, they just like food...lol. The smaller female is pretty picky, will sometimes take dead food, but usually prefers to eat live. Now I'll have to go start weighing all the rats and mice we have...fun!

[Aaron_S]

I think it was Mykee who gave the 10% rule but I could be wrong.

Aside from the feeding suggestions you have and the fact Julian has covered the competition part of your husbandry. I would like to mention that your snakes tolerate your handling. When you open the cage they don't come to you to be handled, they come out to explore the new area for possible food, they couldn't care less about you. What you are doing is putting human emotions upon your snakes and that's just not how snakes work. They don't care for one another, they wouldn't become sick like a dog or cat would for losing their brother/sister. They'd prefer it. I just don't see how you take a solitary animal and it now LIKES others of it's kind. We just can't compare mammals to reptiles.

Also you can't compare keeping ball pythons together as someone who keeps other reptiles together. They aren't the same. Some lizards can co-habitat but we're talking ball pythons.

Lastly, if you continue to keep them together then I recommend taking out the large hides and placing smaller hides. This way the snakes can be alone when they wish and still get the necessary heat/cooling they need. Ball pythons LIKE to feel very confined. They do not prefer space.

[angie_85]

Thanks for the input. I am not trying to argue at all, I just think that we have no idea if snakes like or dislike their keepers or other snakes, or if they enjoy handling or company, mine seem like they do but yes I do realise that it is very possible thay they do not, we may never know. All I was trying to say was that the person that keeps snakes housed together does know a lot about snakes, and other reptiles, not that they were at all the same. Just trying to mention that he knows more about snakes than I do, breeds them, and houses some together. I do appreciate everyone's input though.

[Aaron_S]

I understand that you don't want to take our word for it that snakes enjoy handling, or each other or anything like that. I could show you plenty of snakes who "seem" like they enjoy handling but I can also show you the same snake isn't eating or is having difficulty feeding. It's a strong debate and there DOES need to be more studies upon this stuff but I do believe the current jury stands as they do not have the ability to care, or enjoy us.

I still stand by my statement that you're just putting these human emotions on these animals. They could be doing whatever they wish and you make up some idea that they "try to get to one another because they miss each other". Snakes, and all reptiles work off instinct.

[mykee]

"another "rule of thumb" Julian once suggested to me "
Yeah, that "10% rule" is Mykee's.

[citysnakes]

Yeah, that "10% rule" is Mykee's.

ya ya, its Mykee's on this forum and its someone else's on another forum. whatever, either way its a great rule and should really be everybody's.

[mykee]

Julian, you mean that "Mykee's 10% Rule" isn't proprietary to Mykee!? I hadn't seen anyone espousing it online before I "dreamt" it up years ago.

Dammit all to hell, I'll have to leave my mark on the hobby elsewhere....

[siz]

Should have trademarked it while you had the chance, Mykee :P

[Chu'Wuti]

ooops. :( Mykee, I'm so sorry! I keep getting mixed up about who said what! Didn't mean to steal your thunder! ;)

[dannywyze]

well as far as cooling them go's. it is absolutly necessary, all reptiles have an oragan in there brain called a femeral eye, which sences differentces tempurature and triggers mating responses. to do this you must drop the tank temps to the low 70s for no less then a month and during this time you should live them smaller and less frequent meals. this all simulates the winter months in north eastern africa where they are from. not so nere to the equator.also i know you dont want to but i highly recomend seporating them if you seriousely want to breed your snakes. as long as they've been together your chances breeding them as it is are very small. im not saying it wont happend. a fellow breeder of mine kept two pet balls togther thier hole life and then one day one of them just lay a clutch of 8 fertile eggs. but storries lke these are few and far between. so i will say when snake that are housed togther breed i am surprised. any way good luck i hope i could help you a little.

Danny

[mykee]

"this all simulates the winter months in north eastern africa "
Nope. The rainy season not the winter season
Nope. West Africa, not north eastern Africa.
"differentces tempurature and triggers mating responses."
Nope. Barometric pressure changes.
"to do this you must drop the tank temps to the low 70s "
Nope. Temperatures are a minute part of cueing breeding.

Please, there are members here who can't differentiate between good information, and bad information. Get your facts straight before posting.

[angie_85]

Thanks for the info. I only have 2 of them now. I figured, I have 2 30gal tanks so if I sold one then I could put the other 2 in seperate tanks :D yay...lol. Just trying to figure out the rat situation...rats are in the smaller tanks so I need to either buy another tank for them or make a dividor for the tank the snakes are in so no babies get eaten. Then find a spot to put all the tanks...

[siz]

Yay! So, are the two you have left seperated now?:)

[angie_85]

Not yet... The tank I have them in is angled on the front, so finding something to divide it may be harder than I thought. I am planning on getting another tank in the next few days, a smaller one for the rats, so that should be it. I'll put the males in the big tank that the snakes are in now, along with any females that haven't had babies recently so they'll have 50 gallons of space, plus it's long not tall so they'll like that. Use the new tank for the mommies and babies, and the 2 30g tanks for the snakes. They can share the heat pad and everything should be great :D Now the only issue will be getting the heat and humidity to the right spot again...

[StrictlyScales]

I too thought that I was doing my snakes a favor by going out and buying exoterra tanks for all of them and found out later that racking was the way to go. I argued on here with everyone thinking that I was doing the best that I could and later found out that their opinions were right on!!! I housed the snakes together (despite several people on here telling me that I was wrong) during the construction process of my designated reptile space and that alone set some of my snakes off feeding. It was this that made me realize that I was being selfish and that I needed to re-vamp everything. I now agree with Mykee and the others! There is no need to house your snakes together (except during breeding) The people here seem hard and quick to judge but stop and think about what has all been said Angie and youll realize that they are all really tryinng to just help out when it comes to the best interest of your animals. We are all lovers of this hobby and to see it done wrong sometimes one seems quick to criticize but its all with the best of intentions. I have realized that it was in fact me that was the hippocrit! If you cant live with the answers that you recieve because they arent the ones that you wanted then maybe you shouldnt bother asking. I for one learned that hard way

My snakes are all in a nice big beautiful rack and loving every minute of it!!! :) Thanks Guys