View Full Version : New Burmese Python Owner Seeks Advice...
I am a 27 yr old female from the US, I have had alot of friends with snakes and learned a few things over the years, And have always wanted my own. Well I just bought a 8 ft Burmese Python from a friend of mine.
He is VERY good with his snakes and has them very tame, but his methods are not at all traditional, and I think id rather go with majority rules for safety.
I have a few Q's
He says i dont need a humidity gauge of any kind, I believe i do.
arent i right in that? should be 60+ right?
What can i use for a vapor barrier?
What can i use to lock the aquarium? It has a screen lid.
Do they make straps or anything like that for them?
(and yes the aquarium is HUGE and she has ample room to stretch out and should until shes about 14 feet).
How often should I mist her and the cage? my friend does not do that at all.
What are the best ways to get her used to me, I have been leaving her alone to settle in so far, Just got her about 30 hrs ago.
But once I do handle her, what is the best way to go about it without the friends help? so that she feels less threatened etc?
Will she be stressed out you think or anything like that from the changing of homes and owners and loss of her "sister" peaches? She was very close with my friend, he had her since a baby and she is almost two, so she is very used to him & now he wont be around her much.
I have a rottweiler. (almost 3). I will not be allowing him around her or her around him when she is out of her cage. Her viv is located in the kitchen, which has a locking door on it. Is he ok to come in the room as long as she is in the viv? I have been doing it so far, and she didnt react. and he has not noticed her.
When i do hold her, will she attack me because she smells him in the house or on my clothes you think?
Do other snake owners have other pets also?
Any advice is good!
Also we feed her cooked chicken, not mice, rabbits or rats, Same as my old friend did the first snake i was ever around. She likes that fine. My friend that sold her to me started her on it for me when I told him it is what im gonna be feeding her. Im vegetarian, I couldnt handle the animals with a face thing...
Thanks!
body_xs_j
01-27-09, 12:13 AM
cute snake good luck with him. I use to think on getting on of them. Sorry I don't have info on it. I use to have a big redtail. But had a frend of mine make me a cage.
make sure you never pet your dog or SMELL LIKE DOG if your going to play with the snake... if you smell like dog at all, on your clothing, you will mostly likely quickly have a very serious problem which you might not walk away from. the smell of your dog and fur in the area, will cause your snake to maybe have a feeding response... personally i think this was a very bad choice for a first snake, did you know this snake can weight more then 200lbs? and CAN KILL YOU. without any problems.. IF I WAS YOU, before i would EVER handle the snake, i would keep a spray bottle with HOT water beside you at all times... if you get into a bad situation, stay calm and start spraying the snake in the face with the HOT water...
please consider a new snake for your first pet.. YOU will make a mistake, and you may not get a second chance... just keep what im saying in mind... the snake will also be able to push through a SCREEN, if you like your dog, i would sudgest buying a large snake tank, usually made of PVC.. for exaple BOAPHILEPLASTICS.com
if you have children, get rid of the snake...
please seriously consider what im saying to you... to me, this is like giving a 4yr old a handgun and say be careful.
I dont keep Burmese pythons I have red tail boas thats as big as I ever want to go!
Generaly I would have suggested lots of preownership research. But since you have the snake allready, this site may help some Burmese Python (http://www.anapsid.org/burm.html). Do please be careful.. And I prefer whole prey items.
make sure you never pet your dog or SMELL LIKE DOG if your going to play with the snake... if you smell like dog at all, on your clothing, you will mostly likely quickly have a very serious problem which you might not walk away from. the smell of your dog and fur in the area, will cause your snake to maybe have a feeding response... personally i think this was a very bad choice for a first snake, did you know this snake can weight more then 200lbs? and CAN KILL YOU. without any problems.. IF I WAS YOU, before i would EVER handle the snake, i would keep a spray bottle with HOT water beside you at all times... if you get into a bad situation, stay calm and start spraying the snake in the face with the HOT water...
please consider a new snake for your first pet.. YOU will make a mistake, and you may not get a second chance... just keep what im saying in mind... the snake will also be able to push through a SCREEN, if you like your dog, i would sudgest buying a large snake tank, usually made of PVC.. for exaple BOAPHILEPLASTICS.com
if you have children, get rid of the snake...
please seriously consider what im saying to you... to me, this is like giving a 4yr old a handgun and say be careful.
Alright well first off, You own a snake, so who are you to jump me? just cuz u think im a noob? cmon now. im not a total idiot.
my friend would purposely play with his rat and then his snakes, to teach them the difference between owner and food. Personally i think it was a risky foolish gesture, but he swears it worked regardless.
But i def plan to not have dog on me b4 i hold her.
Ive known many snake owners with kids. And i personally didnt plan to mix the two. I gave up on the snake hope cuz my kids. But now i have a big enuff house and it has a locked kitchen they arent allowed in and i will only be handling her in said kitchen.
So I think they will be fine. id never risk my kids.
I have owned a snake before but i was only co owner. and it was a python too. & i know a decent amount about them. I just wanted to make sure that things havent changed alot and been doin alot of research.
I know my snake will live up to about 25 years and get to be as much as 200 lbs and 20 feet. And of course i know she can kill me. im not stupid.
Female dont mean stupid thanks.
I know regardless what people say burmese aint the best starter snakes, but she is what i want and so long as i take the proper precautions then its not a death wish. My rottweiler is actually more dangerous than she is attack wise. There are much more attacks by them than snakes. But trust me, im treading very very carefully with rogue, even tho i know from being over my friends all this time how sweet she can be. cuz u cant tame a snake. they will and can strike.
She is already my pet. So there is no reconsidering it. Ive done spent alot of money on my grrl and she aint going anywhere any time soon.
I also felt a screen was a bad choice, my friend used one and still does tho. But i have it weighted. And am seeking for straps for it.
I first bought a glass one but it was too small.
I cant afford a cage like you described or i definately would have one.
And my kitchen she is in stays locked at all times. kids and dog are not allowed in.
I doubt she could kill my dog. Maybe when shes older but not right now. hed have her ripped in half first. She could hurt him but i think hed live thru it. and either way, i refuse to find out. i want both my pets safe.
Im not 4. im grown. Im a very responsible person and not a risk taker.
Buying it was the only risk i took.
I am beying beyond paranoid and beyond careful trust me.
I will sell her first time she gets at all feisty.
And i wont give her the chance for her first time to be my last. k?
so dont worry about it.
Thanks for the hot water tip tho at least.
any more actual tips u got let me know.
I did do tons of preownership research actually. and most the sites i visited contradicted each other. and tons of them said stuff i already knew. i never enter into ANYTHING without research.
Most of the sites said to do the wrong stuff by far. such as didnt even mention humidity and said use cedar to name a few.
Trust me i checked every site i could find for weeks.
You can prefer whole prey all ya want, I think its totally cruel. Just cuz they eat them in the wild dont mean they cant eat other stuff. It is proven they can.
Trust me ill be beyond careful. and thanks ill check out the site and see if it is one i havent read yet.
b4 reading yalls responses i went out today anyways and bought a mister and all the other stuff i was askin about. cuz i knew i needed them but was pointing out that alot of people say otherwise and i dont get why.
I dont keep Burmese pythons I have red tail boas thats as big as I ever want to go!
Generaly I would have suggested lots of preownership research. But since you have the snake allready, this site may help some Burmese Python (http://www.anapsid.org/burm.html). Do please be careful.. And I prefer whole prey items.
do u have a pic of ur red tail? id like to see her.
hey someone is finally from my side of the world on here. im from Cincy. How's the snow there cuz it's a big pain here. I would have to agree with everone so far though it defiantly is not a good snake to have for your first pet i can't believe your friend would even consider letting you have that one if he knows anything about snakes. also i would suggest trying to do frozen prey because it just seems healthier for the snake. do not handle the snake without someone there with you that is even the recommendation for experienced snake breeders and keepers.
Since you already have the snake no sense in dwelling on the fact you shouldnt have gotten it. you need to:
1-read read read all you can about your snake and get your hands on as many care sheets as you can and write down facts that seem to be consistant through most of them. they will all vary a bit but should be somewhat close. write down what temp should be on warm and cool side, humidity levels, ect. put all that in a notebook and refrence that incase you forget your not just workin off your memory.
2-again do not handle the snake by yourself. if it is hungry you are possibly dinner. or a big enough threat that it needs to take care of. always have someone with you and the hot water bottle sounds like a great idea. but when handling my friends snake that happens to be the same species and about 10ft we always keep a knife around.
3-I have a baby Brazilian rainbow boa that is only 2.5ft and her cage sits on the floor and we have a big shitzu and she comes in my room all the time and lays next to the cage the weird thing is my snake will usually come out and lay against the glass near my dog. never seen anything like it with snakes or any other animals i have had. they don't seem to ever stress each other out but that doesn't mean that your dog wont get stressed with something bigger than it now in the house or your snake won't get stressed by what it would consider a predator. that you will just have to decide for yourself how they react to each other. generally most people i know don't like to have their pets by their snakes.
4-You have it kind of easy because as a snake gets bigger and older it seemsto become more tolerable to variations in temp and also humidity and can handle higher and lower temps than a baby of the same species. some species are more rugged than others. my friend that has a burmese does not mist or anything but kind of lets his snake be. he says that they seem to be a pretty rustic snake and his can tollerate some extremes when the power went out for a couple days last year his snake's cage lost power for about 2 days and got down to about 60-65f the snake wasn't too happy about it im sure but it did ok once he got power and warmed the cage back up.
5-go to home depot and they have some steel screens that are awesome for big snakes. they are thick and heavy so if you build a good wood frame around it and put it over your cage there is no way it could push through it. then while at home depot get some tie down straps or tow straps and fasten those around the cage and the top.
these are just some general things i could think of while bored here at work because no one is here cuz of the snow and ice so sorry it was so long and if you have any questions i message me and i can ask my friend. good luck and just be careful when you handle the snake. and use common sense because it's really not that hard it just takes a little thought. post some more pics if you could i'd like to see the overall size of it.
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 10:59 AM
Wow...
Where to start. First of a bottle of hot water is a good idea but the water will cool pretty quick. Vinegar works best and you should have a knife available when handling the snake. If you don't have a second person to help you at least ensure that there's a second person in the house and that they know you're handling the snake, and they also know how to deal with the snake should something go wrong. Yes it sounds like scary safety measures but really I know people who hoses hooked right up to their hot water heater. Your dog smell shouldn't matter. Shouldn't is the key word. The dog smell is already in the house constantly so the snake will realize it's not a prey item. Sure they can attack dogs but they won't attack an animal that is larger than them unless in defensive.
Secondly, no matter how long the tank is it isn't big enough for your snake.No tank EVER is suitable for a burmese python to 14 feet..EVER! No tank is 4 feet wide, you're lucky to get 30 inches wide. You should have the snake in a 6x2(or3)x2 right now and be moving to a 8x4x4 soon. The tank is terrible for keeping humidity levels up as well as keeping heat in. You don't really need to spray the burmese python but it doesn't hurt. Make sure you do do it during a shed cycle though.
EDIT: Also the snake will be fine with you. It never 'got used' your friend or even cared for her 'sister'. She rather be away from her sister.
Lastly, I'm going to try to be as nice as possible here. You SHOULD NOT have this snake in your possession. Cooked chicken because YOU can't handle feeding it it's actual diet. That's digusting. You own an animal and can't give it it's proper needs so you make the animal suffer for your own problems/issues? Get out of this hobby now. Cooked chicken doesn't have what it needs to give your animal the right nutrients. Let alone the added chemicals animals get for human consumption is now in your animal. Way to go buddy... you're a grade A keeper... Either give the snake to someone else or care for it properly.
Some people...
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 11:03 AM
4-You have it kind of easy because as a snake gets bigger and older it seemsto become more tolerable to variations in temp and also humidity and can handle higher and lower temps than a baby of the same species. some species are more rugged than others. my friend that has a burmese does not mist or anything but kind of lets his snake be. he says that they seem to be a pretty rustic snake and his can tollerate some extremes when the power went out for a couple days last year his snake's cage lost power for about 2 days and got down to about 60-65f the snake wasn't too happy about it im sure but it did ok once he got power and warmed the cage back up.
You're not quite right. If a snake species has requirements it doesn't mean that when it's an adult you can ignore them because it's more 'tolerant' of crappy keepers. Baby snakes all the way to adult snakes need the same requirements for the same species. Just on a larger scale, which trying to maintain temperatures and humidity on a larger scale is actually more difficult. Burmese pythons just tend to be very hardy snakes.
omg that was horrible but again im at work snowed in and it made me laugh.
However, She honestly doesn't know so you cant get mad at her for it. I agree that she should have done research but as far as she knows she is caring for the snake the way her friend (who supposedly knows about snakes) told her to. you have to give her credit for realizing that her friend's ways with snakes are unconventional and she came her for advice on how to properly care for her snake. that shows that she wants to do the right thing. so lets try and help her and not scare her away. lol
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 11:09 AM
Umm no they don't want to do the right thing. If they did they wouldn't have tried to feed it cooked chicken. She said they asked their friend to start feeding it cooked chicken because they would feel bad to feed something with a face on it.
and the fact that they are hardy is what i was trying to get at. i keep my snakes at as close to the required temps as i can but in the wacky climate we are in it can be quite hard because one day it is 60f and sunny and the next it is 20f and snowy. this was the case the last couple weeks. i was just trying to hit on some positive note to make her feel a little better about it.
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 11:13 AM
4-You have it kind of easy because as a snake gets bigger and older it seemsto become more tolerable to variations in temp and also humidity and can handle higher and lower temps than a baby of the same species.
I quoted you again to show you where you are wrong. It doesn't matter if they are a baby or not. Your brazillian rainbow boa needs the same humidity as a baby as it does as an adult. You'll get the SAME problems no matter if it's a baby or an adult.
oh i read that wrong i thought her friend was already feeding the cooked chicken to all his animals.
yes but a baby will have problems faster than an adult will. and i know for a fact that red tail boas as adults can handle really rough conditions becuase my friend gave one to his friend and his friend put it in a pillowcase and shoved it in his closet for about 3 months. when my friend found out he took it back but it proves that adults can handle it better than babies. and yes you are right my brb as an adult will need the correct humidity just as a baby would but im speaking very loosely. some snakes are much more delicate than others and the way i said it grouped them all together and that was wrong, and yes my brb is not the hardiest of snakes no matter the age, but i was just trying to say that older snakes can handle a variation for a longer time than a baby can. is it right to vary the temp NO, but it is not the end of the world in an emergency. so yes i was wrong with the way i worded it and im sorry for that.
I was just trying to show something positive to her with her snake than just all negative
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 12:06 PM
You're still saying things I don't like. An emergency is one thing but we're talking about a constant basis.
A baby boa won't last 3 months in a pillowcase inside a closet due to the fact it doesn't have the fat stores that an adult would have. It doesn't mean that they can grow to be more tolerant.
What I mean by a hardy snake is that if you make a mistake with humidity or temps that the snake will overcome it. That they also eat easily and will eat most anything given to them. This is not the case with all snakes. Your brazillian rainbow is pretty hardy for a species aslong as the extra humidity is met.
yes i agree 100% and i just worded wat i said in the first post wrong but i agree with you. i agree that by hardy that the snake will be more apt to overcome it but i agree too that it is not good for the snake to be kept at in different conditions than it is supposed to be.
Not to cut in but showing a positive side may not be of help she needs to understand just how bad things are. She doesnt need this animal, there are lots of really nice starter snakes that are starter'sor a reason and they still need PRERESEARCH.
Her friend doesnt sound like he need these animals either for that matter. I hope she is willing to ignore everything he has told her and change her care completely around. feeding cooked chicken doesnt change the fact that some one killed then butchered the chicken by the way. At least if its whole it wasnt butchered.
She doesnt need this animal, there are lots of really nice starter snakes that are starter'sor a reason and they still need PRERESEARCH.
I agree!!!
Chu'Wuti
01-27-09, 01:18 PM
Cooked chicken doesn't have what it needs to give your animal the right nutrients.
Absolutely on target; Aaron_S KNOWS what he's talking about! A snake NEEDS WHOLE PREY and NOT cooked. You won't notice the snake is becoming ill right away, but gradually its health will get worse and worse. Its bones will become increasingly fragile as well, to the point that they won't be able to bear the snake's own weight.
My stepson tried to feed a cat a vegetarian diet a couple of years ago because he's vegan. The cat finally died.
You cannot make carnivores into vegetarians; you cannot make a snake not need what it needs nutritionally, and you shouldn't even try.
I think id rather go with majority rules for safety.
Only for you? or for the snake as well? If you care about the snake, PLEASE listen to what we are telling you.
I'm sure you're feeling attacked at this point, and I'm sorry, but this is really important. I'm usually pretty laid-back about stuff and want people to listen rather than get defensive, so I try not to attack people. But this situation even has me upset.
If you truly cannot stand the thought of feeding this snake what it needs because the prey "has a face," then please ask yourself, "Is this the right pet for me? If I cannot stand to meet its needs, is this the right pet for me?"
citysnakes
01-27-09, 01:48 PM
Sane, if you care about this animal you wont listen to anything that has been said in this thread.;)
i dont own a snake that large as im sure nobody else who posted in this thread does but all i can agree with is getting this snake to feed on whole prey animals and to never to handle it alone.
i would recommend talking to a reputable large snake breeder for care and husbandry advice. if youre interested let me know and i can get you a contact.
other than that start reading up on that bad boy.
Chu'Wuti
01-27-09, 01:54 PM
you wont listen to anything that has been said
Anything, Julian? I'm feeling a sarcastic response coming on, but I'll try to restrain myself. Anyway, right after you said that, you contradicted yourself.
Do you really think this person should be trying to start her snake-keeping life with a Burmese Python that she knows almost nothing about?
You're correct that at least I do not have any snakes that large, and I won't ever, because I know I could not handle them safely and am not equipped to take proper care of them. Whatever I get, I want to be sure I can care for it properly and handle it.
I'm beginning to understand Aaron & Mykee better . . .
wow this thread has turned really hostile. lol
If she wants to keep the snake it's better to tell her how to care for it than argue against her having it. Ya it will be tough as hell but if she really wants to keep this snake we should try and help her to achieve that. But yes first step is to feed whole prey. If you don't like the fact it has a face then just cut the head off. lol. But in all seriousness you need to feed whole prey. Chu'Wuti is right on in that aspect.
I posted a link to what looked to be a good caresheet for them :)
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 03:53 PM
I will mention one thing in regards to snakes eating chicken. I have seen with my own eyes, a burmese python and two carpet pythons eating thawed chicken thighs that you buy at the grocery store. I only saw it once and I didn't know the history on the animals. I also don't know where they've gone too now but I don't think they would have lived very long had they been kept on that diet.
That being said. Julien, I have kept burmese pythons before. I haven't kept them for years or anything but I have kept a couple from hatchling to about the same size as Sane's. (I rescued one and the other came from someone who couldn't house it) I don't think there's anything in this thread that someone who PROPERLY keeps large boids wouldn't say. A lot of advice I got from mine came from the Bob Clark forums, where the large pythons are kings! Try posting this thread over there and see what response is given.
We recently had a Florida based traveling zoo come through our little town. They had a 8 year old 7 foot burmese that they fed thawed chicken thighs. I asked the rather rude picture taking keeper about it and was told that if I knew anything about large snakes I would know that diet was just fine.
PS i hate the chemicals put into fowl period for anything us included
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 04:11 PM
I just don't see it as a means of a longevity thing. 8 years at 7 feet eh? Doesn't sound like it's fine. Maybe we don't know how long it's been on the diet for either. I really dislike the chemicals that are placed into chickens for humans going inside my snakes.
Chu'Wuti
01-27-09, 04:23 PM
Kmef, thanks for pointing that out.
I apologize; I should have used more smilies and I should have worded things better, as I definitely didn't want to come across as hostile, and especially not to Julian, whom I quite like, though he may not like me so well at this point. Julian, I'm sorry! Truly, I'm not feeling hostile at all. Frustrated, definitely. Like everyone else here, I want that snake--all snakes--to be treated properly. I taught my sons and firmly believe that when we take any animal into our home, we are taking responsibility for that animal's life and well-being. If we aren't willing to provide what it needs for a quality life and well-being, then we should not get it. My personal opinion, of course.
One question we've never asked Sane--Are you feeding your python whole pieces of chicken or whole chicken? That is, is your burmese getting bones and skin as well as chicken? and, Why do you feel the need to cook the meat?
BTW, Aaron, those chemicals given to chickens in chicken farms nowadays aren't any good for humans, either. The reason they are given so many chemicals is to keep them alive in horrible conditions. You might find "The Omnivore's Dilemma" an interesting read; my 19-yo son persuaded me to read it recently, and it makes me want to find other sources of my meats than the local grocery store. Sorry, Sane--I'm sure you think I should go vegetarian. My son and stepson are both vegetarian. However, I'm allergic to legumes, and my dr. has told me to cut down on cheese & dairy, so becoming a vegetarian would be pretty complicated for me.
and Aaron's right--a burm that's only 7 feet long at 8 years hasn't been growing properly. Sounds to me like the traveling zoo "snake keeper" was rude because he didn't want you asking uncomfortable questions, Coy.
I felt the same at the time Chu and still do. I meant the reference to size as a example of what I believed to be malnutrition do to a similar diet. Back on TOPIC Sane I hope you are willing and able to follow the advice here.
Chu'Wuti
01-27-09, 06:19 PM
I meant the reference to size as a example of what I believed to be malnutrition do to a similar diet.
It's definitely a good example. I also wonder how much longer that poor snake lived after you saw it. The slow/poor growth would be only an outward indication of poor nutrition; there would be many invisible effects, too.
I don't think this was at all off topic, either, as the point we're all trying to make is that chicken, even raw, is not an appropriate diet for an animal that did not evolve on chicken and whose nutritional needs will not be met by chicken.
Guys and Gals I think we scared her away. lol.
My biggest problem is what Citysnakes touched on if she is just feeding cooked chicken breasts to her snake then that snake is not getting any calcium along with a ton of other vitamins and minerals im sure.
Sane, I think you need to just bite the bullet and get some frozen rats. Buy them in bulk and have them shipped from somewhere if you can't find any local supplies. There are a lot of shows you can get them from down that way about twice a month. if not i have a breeder friend that will beat any price out there and he ships cheep or cincy is close enough you can drive to get them. the frozen ones are already dead and are killed much faster than the chicken was. also it will make your snake happier and healthier.
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 06:59 PM
I don't think this was at all off topic, either, as the point we're all trying to make is that chicken, even raw, is not an appropriate diet for an animal that did not evolve on chicken and whose nutritional needs will not be met by chicken.
Don't get confused but I only mean chicken raised for human consumption in the supermarket. Plenty of people goto farmers markets and buy chickens for their large snakes. They grow exceptionally well on it. You just need to get them whole, feathers and all, from a farmer's market.
Thats my plan for feeding Kronos (BCC) when he is full grown
Chu'Wuti
01-27-09, 08:04 PM
You just need to get them whole, feathers and all, from a farmer's market.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Nutritional needs will not be met by cooked chicken/chicken parts. The snake evolved on eating whole animals.
Ack.
Aaron_S
01-27-09, 08:40 PM
Alright I just wanted to clarify my point on chicken feedings is all :)
citysnakes
01-27-09, 10:46 PM
he may not like me so well at this point.
I love all!:D
body_xs_j
01-28-09, 12:33 AM
I love all to.
Don't feel bad I'm getting a HYBRID CAIMAN, it may grow and bite me or sometime. But who is to know whats going to happen.. Good luck with the snake....
Wow...
Where to start. First of a bottle of hot water is a good idea but the water will cool pretty quick. Vinegar works best and you should have a knife available when handling the snake. If you don't have a second person to help you at least ensure that there's a second person in the house and that they know you're handling the snake, and they also know how to deal with the snake should something go wrong. Yes it sounds like scary safety measures but really I know people who hoses hooked right up to their hot water heater. Your dog smell shouldn't matter. Shouldn't is the key word. The dog smell is already in the house constantly so the snake will realize it's not a prey item. Sure they can attack dogs but they won't attack an animal that is larger than them unless in defensive.
Secondly, no matter how long the tank is it isn't big enough for your snake.No tank EVER is suitable for a burmese python to 14 feet..EVER! No tank is 4 feet wide, you're lucky to get 30 inches wide. You should have the snake in a 6x2(or3)x2 right now and be moving to a 8x4x4 soon. The tank is terrible for keeping humidity levels up as well as keeping heat in. You don't really need to spray the burmese python but it doesn't hurt. Make sure you do do it during a shed cycle though.
EDIT: Also the snake will be fine with you. It never 'got used' your friend or even cared for her 'sister'. She rather be away from her sister.
Lastly, I'm going to try to be as nice as possible here. You SHOULD NOT have this snake in your possession. Cooked chicken because YOU can't handle feeding it it's actual diet. That's digusting. You own an animal and can't give it it's proper needs so you make the animal suffer for your own problems/issues? Get out of this hobby now. Cooked chicken doesn't have what it needs to give your animal the right nutrients. Let alone the added chemicals animals get for human consumption is now in your animal. Way to go buddy... you're a grade A keeper... Either give the snake to someone else or care for it properly.
Some people...
No it DONT sound like scary safety measures. cuz im overly careful. I dont like to take risks on safety.
I plan to take every precaution necessary and then some.
And i will always have two adults in the room when she is handled, i have two large male roomates that will always be there.
Im not stupid as ive said, regardless what you holier than thou idiots would like to think.
I knew id get **** from alot of you that think you know it all, so trust me im not surprised. These forums are for people to HELP each other and for constructive advice and tips etc, not to start drama for the sake of it. If i own a snake or not is noones business. Ive been around them my whole life and I can do as well and probably better than any of you. I asked alot of the Qs i did to be nice, and make people feel needed, in order to start up convo. The only real Q i had was about the dog. The rest i just wanted to make sure that people agreed with me. But it was all pointless cuz b4 anyone responded i went and bought what I thought was right, and she is doing great. her humidity and temp both stay in the 80s.
This aquarium is huge and special made. trust me she will be fine for a long time know it all.
she can lay head to tail in it 3 times. so its three times her height. its HUGE.
you say tanks are terrible for temp and humidity and keeping them up, yet its perfect and has been for days. and we are going thru the coldest days every here lately. icy snow outside like crazy. as well as a broken furnace. yea im doing a terrible job! not.
im glad u think u know everything but rogue adored peaches, they loved to lay together and things. and they beyond loved my friend. she would lay on jame's face if he wasnt loving on her until he loved on her. then shed go on about her business. shed lay there a good 10-20 min waiting for his acknowledgment, her head rested on his nose. he has trained and tamed them well. they adore him. are you in a snakes brains? are you in their heart?
dont assume what snakes know and dont and feel and dont.
They used to say when baby humans were born they cant feel pain and were blind. since then both have been proven false as hell. science dont know everything ,because animals cant tell them how they think or feel. so you sure as hell dont. so keep your ******** opinions to yourself. if you dont have something nice or helpful to say, then stfu.
i have known MANY a owner that fed their snakes on chicken, and they thrived. many a owners as well as pet shop people etc have told me chicken is more than ok and she will get what she needs.
people cant even agree on what people need, my side say a vegetarian diet is safer and yours say that a meat filled diet is safer. whos right ? we both think we are. but both cant be. and i know i am. so i really dont trust you on what is the best diet for ANYONE or ANYTHING.
its not ur business what i feed her. she loves it and is healthy.
also i didnt TELL my friend to feed her chicken. i told him i was going to, and he chose to start her on it for me to see how she responded. she loved it. he was surprised she took to it so well. i was very appreciative he pretried it for me also. hes great.
She is my snake, I love her and all animals unlike people like you who choose to EAT them, so i very much trust her in my care over others.
Alot of people wanted to buy her from james and he chose me cuz he knew id care for her the best. its that simple. her needs are always met and very important to me.
There is no reason in hell for humans to consume meat when they can substitute a vegetarian diet, same as there is no reason she can not be substituted chicken for live or frozen dead prey.
there isnt even any chemicals in the chicken genius that wouldnt be in what she would eat. my roomie/ex husbands grandpa owns a farm and has fresh chickens there. he is slaughtering them anyways so he is hooking me up for my snake. thats as fresh as it gets.
as i have said many a time... dont act like u know things u know NOTHING ABOUT! oh and get a life ;) MWAH!
Not to cut in but showing a positive side may not be of help she needs to understand just how bad things are. She doesnt need this animal, there are lots of really nice starter snakes that are starter'sor a reason and they still need PRERESEARCH.
Her friend doesnt sound like he need these animals either for that matter. I hope she is willing to ignore everything he has told her and change her care completely around. feeding cooked chicken doesnt change the fact that some one killed then butchered the chicken by the way. At least if its whole it wasnt butchered.
YOUR ALL IDIOTS. sincerely. seek help. soon!
things arent at all bad. everything here is all good.
screw a starter snake. no interest. i like things big. hence i have a rottweiler not a freakin chihuahua. and i care for all animals very well.
i need and deserve this snake alot more than u do. obviously.
ive had starters my whole life and been around snakes my whole life. and again ive done TONS OF PRE RESEARCH! HOW ELSE DO U THINK I FOUND THIS FORUM? I WENT TO SO MANY SITES READING B4 I BOUGHT HER IT WASNT FREAKIN FUNNY! AND ALOT OF THEM CONTRADICT AS WELL!
i also asked the pet shop people at 3 places their opinions and friends.
my friends excellent with snakes but i dont agree with alot of his methods on things hence why i do the opposite as i said in my first posting. genius. learn to read. not just jump on the bandwagon.
i didnt say it changed the fact. i hate that any animal dies period.
Absolutely on target; Aaron_S KNOWS what he's talking about! A snake NEEDS WHOLE PREY and NOT cooked. You won't notice the snake is becoming ill right away, but gradually its health will get worse and worse. Its bones will become increasingly fragile as well, to the point that they won't be able to bear the snake's own weight.
My stepson tried to feed a cat a vegetarian diet a couple of years ago because he's vegan. The cat finally died.
You cannot make carnivores into vegetarians; you cannot make a snake not need what it needs nutritionally, and you shouldn't even try.
Only for you? or for the snake as well? If you care about the snake, PLEASE listen to what we are telling you.
I'm sure you're feeling attacked at this point, and I'm sorry, but this is really important. I'm usually pretty laid-back about stuff and want people to listen rather than get defensive, so I try not to attack people. But this situation even has me upset.
If you truly cannot stand the thought of feeding this snake what it needs because the prey "has a face," then please ask yourself, "Is this the right pet for me? If I cannot stand to meet its needs, is this the right pet for me?"
I was going to feed the snake raw chicken but i was told cooked was better and safer. so thats why i was going to cook it. i have a dog, he dont eat a vegetarian diet, hes a dog, he needs dog food. same as the snake eats chicken not a vegetarian diet. im not making my pets eat vegetarian. s o anyways! he was stupid to do that to her cat. i wouldnt do that.
I wasnt saying i only go with things for my safety. I was saying i do for mine and hers.
Yes this is the right snake for me. if yall dont agree o well.
Yall can eat animals day in and day out and not care that you are killing 3+ animals a week by doing so, yet you judge ME cuz u think i MIGHT kill ONE snake? yall are about the most ******** hyocrites i ever seen in my life. grow up. get your head out of your rectal region and see what kinna hypocrites you are.
She will live a long life and you will all be laughed at thorougly.
If she got sick and i was told it was cuz she ate chicken, id change her diet. but i am told by all these experts its fine, so im going with that. get over it.
I will be going to a forum where people are on their for something other than drama, im done here.
We recently had a Florida based traveling zoo come through our little town. They had a 8 year old 7 foot burmese that they fed thawed chicken thighs. I asked the rather rude picture taking keeper about it and was told that if I knew anything about large snakes I would know that diet was just fine.
PS i hate the chemicals put into fowl period for anything us included
SEE! :D
theirs was too small tho. thats wierd. my friends that have fed their snakes chicken THEIR WHOLE SNAKE LIVES are HUGE! one has one that is over 30 ft long. shes amazing. so whatever if u blame it on chicken!
Anything, Julian? I'm feeling a sarcastic response coming on, but I'll try to restrain myself. Anyway, right after you said that, you contradicted yourself.
Do you really think this person should be trying to start her snake-keeping life with a Burmese Python that she knows almost nothing about?
You're correct that at least I do not have any snakes that large, and I won't ever, because I know I could not handle them safely and am not equipped to take proper care of them. Whatever I get, I want to be sure I can care for it properly and handle it.
I'm beginning to understand Aaron & Mykee better . . .
IM NOT STARTING MY SNAKE KEEPING WITH A FREAKIN BURMESE! IM CONTINUING IT WITH ONE! AND I KNOW MORE ABOUT THEM THEN U PROBABLY DO. god u people dont read u just yap.
why the hell are all you idiots in here that have never even owned a burmese? go away and let the big dogs handle things kiddos.
this part of the forum is NOT for you and you know NOTHING.
I love all to.
Don't feel bad I'm getting a HYBRID CAIMAN, it may grow and bite me or sometime. But who is to know whats going to happen.. Good luck with the snake....
thanks :)
you too!
Don't get confused but I only mean chicken raised for human consumption in the supermarket. Plenty of people goto farmers markets and buy chickens for their large snakes. They grow exceptionally well on it. You just need to get them whole, feathers and all, from a farmer's market.
SEE you said it yourself. now if you had listened and not assumed you wouldnt be looking stupid right now.
get your head out of your rectal region
If you know it all dont post on forums for advice!
hey someone is finally from my side of the world on here. im from Cincy. How's the snow there cuz it's a big pain here. I would have to agree with everone so far though it defiantly is not a good snake to have for your first pet i can't believe your friend would even consider letting you have that one if he knows anything about snakes. also i would suggest trying to do frozen prey because it just seems healthier for the snake. do not handle the snake without someone there with you that is even the recommendation for experienced snake breeders and keepers.
Since you already have the snake no sense in dwelling on the fact you shouldnt have gotten it. you need to:
1-read read read all you can about your snake and get your hands on as many care sheets as you can and write down facts that seem to be consistant through most of them. they will all vary a bit but should be somewhat close. write down what temp should be on warm and cool side, humidity levels, ect. put all that in a notebook and refrence that incase you forget your not just workin off your memory.
2-again do not handle the snake by yourself. if it is hungry you are possibly dinner. or a big enough threat that it needs to take care of. always have someone with you and the hot water bottle sounds like a great idea. but when handling my friends snake that happens to be the same species and about 10ft we always keep a knife around.
3-I have a baby Brazilian rainbow boa that is only 2.5ft and her cage sits on the floor and we have a big shitzu and she comes in my room all the time and lays next to the cage the weird thing is my snake will usually come out and lay against the glass near my dog. never seen anything like it with snakes or any other animals i have had. they don't seem to ever stress each other out but that doesn't mean that your dog wont get stressed with something bigger than it now in the house or your snake won't get stressed by what it would consider a predator. that you will just have to decide for yourself how they react to each other. generally most people i know don't like to have their pets by their snakes.
4-You have it kind of easy because as a snake gets bigger and older it seemsto become more tolerable to variations in temp and also humidity and can handle higher and lower temps than a baby of the same species. some species are more rugged than others. my friend that has a burmese does not mist or anything but kind of lets his snake be. he says that they seem to be a pretty rustic snake and his can tollerate some extremes when the power went out for a couple days last year his snake's cage lost power for about 2 days and got down to about 60-65f the snake wasn't too happy about it im sure but it did ok once he got power and warmed the cage back up.
5-go to home depot and they have some steel screens that are awesome for big snakes. they are thick and heavy so if you build a good wood frame around it and put it over your cage there is no way it could push through it. then while at home depot get some tie down straps or tow straps and fasten those around the cage and the top.
these are just some general things i could think of while bored here at work because no one is here cuz of the snow and ice so sorry it was so long and if you have any questions i message me and i can ask my friend. good luck and just be careful when you handle the snake. and use common sense because it's really not that hard it just takes a little thought. post some more pics if you could i'd like to see the overall size of it.
everything u said i already knew and am doing. cept the straps, good idea, i been lookin for sum cage straps, and couldnt find any so if that works thatd b great. ill try that.
but the rest i knew and am doing. i wont handle a snake three days b4 or after dinner either. minimum. if not longer. done planned on that.
i do mist tho. she does need it. not sure about ur friend on that but her cage needs it sumtimes. tho i got tile on top the cage so it holds humidity and heat n better so the cage dont need it alot.
imma post new pics for u.
I put her in the cage we used to transfer her for the pics cuz its alot smaller and easier for pic taking :D
when i get her out once shes had time to settle in i will take some pics of her and me.
and so u know, if the chicken thing dont work out for whatever reason, my roomie will be happy to feed her dead rats or mice if he has to. and we will b4 we will let her suffer trust me. but if i dont have to, i dont plan to.
If you know it all dont post on forums for advice!
I obv know alot more than most of you,
There is nothing wrong with posting to make sure that what i know is agreed with. and ive found everything is right that im doing so im good.
I mainly posted on here to make friends with other snake lovers.
Instead i meet nazi's.
everything u said i already knew and am doing. cept the straps, good idea, i been lookin for sum cage straps, and couldnt find any so if that works thatd b great. ill try that.
but the rest i knew and am doing. i wont handle a snake three days b4 or after dinner either. minimum. if not longer. done planned on that.
i do mist tho. she does need it. not sure about ur friend on that but her cage needs it sumtimes. tho i got tile on top the cage so it holds humidity and heat n better so the cage dont need it alot.
imma post new pics for u.
I put her in the cage we used to transfer her for the pics cuz its alot smaller and easier for pic taking :D
when i get her out once shes had time to settle in i will take some pics of her and me.
and so u know, if the chicken thing dont work out for whatever reason, my roomie will be happy to feed her dead rats or mice if he has to. and we will b4 we will let her suffer trust me. but if i dont have to, i dont plan to.
Here is more.
The transfer tank is a 75 gallon. She is comfortable in that but not a ton of freedom. I may leave her in it for a day b4 moving her again so she dont feel too messed with. cuz again im trying to give her space till she is settled in .
Here is more.
The transfer tank is a 75 gallon. She is comfortable in that but not a ton of freedom. I may leave her in it for a day b4 moving her again so she dont feel too messed with. cuz again im trying to give her space till she is settled in .
more pics.
These show her pretty face! :D
Kmef, thanks for pointing that out.
I apologize; I should have used more smilies and I should have worded things better, as I definitely didn't want to come across as hostile, and especially not to Julian, whom I quite like, though he may not like me so well at this point. Julian, I'm sorry! Truly, I'm not feeling hostile at all. Frustrated, definitely. Like everyone else here, I want that snake--all snakes--to be treated properly. I taught my sons and firmly believe that when we take any animal into our home, we are taking responsibility for that animal's life and well-being. If we aren't willing to provide what it needs for a quality life and well-being, then we should not get it. My personal opinion, of course.
One question we've never asked Sane--Are you feeding your python whole pieces of chicken or whole chicken? That is, is your burmese getting bones and skin as well as chicken? and, Why do you feel the need to cook the meat?
BTW, Aaron, those chemicals given to chickens in chicken farms nowadays aren't any good for humans, either. The reason they are given so many chemicals is to keep them alive in horrible conditions. You might find "The Omnivore's Dilemma" an interesting read; my 19-yo son persuaded me to read it recently, and it makes me want to find other sources of my meats than the local grocery store. Sorry, Sane--I'm sure you think I should go vegetarian. My son and stepson are both vegetarian. However, I'm allergic to legumes, and my dr. has told me to cut down on cheese & dairy, so becoming a vegetarian would be pretty complicated for me.
and Aaron's right--a burm that's only 7 feet long at 8 years hasn't been growing properly. Sounds to me like the traveling zoo "snake keeper" was rude because he didn't want you asking uncomfortable questions, Coy.
I care for all animals and living things with utmost love. thats how i am.
she is eating whole chickens but i was gonna cook the meat but only cuz several people said to. originally i planned to do it raw but they said the salmonella risk was too high that way.
so i was gonna cook it.
wasnt sure. but again thats what this forum was supposed to be for. advice!
my roomie was gonna handle the parts of the chicken i cant.
and the chickens his pa gave us have no faces.
no heads.
u dont have to have legumes to be vegetarian, and id prefer people to be vegan which means no dairy or cheese, which is also dairy btw. u can get plenty of nutrition without both if u would take the time to look into it.
if u dont want to then u dont but please dont make excuses that are not true.
no animals anymore are too safe for anyone. ur right, they feed them all kinds of crap to live in bad conditions. any vegetarian, vegan or concerned person can read up on that. i have been one since i was 7, and its an important cause to me, so im always up on everything. i wish meat eaters would be too even if they continue to eat meat. being in the know is still important.
I have never been speechless in my whole life until now. lol. I think this thread is about to get really nasty.lol
Sane, if you care about this animal you wont listen to anything that has been said in this thread.;)
i dont own a snake that large as im sure nobody else who posted in this thread does but all i can agree with is getting this snake to feed on whole prey animals and to never to handle it alone.
i would recommend talking to a reputable large snake breeder for care and husbandry advice. if youre interested let me know and i can get you a contact.
other than that start reading up on that bad boy.
I already did all that thanks.
Chicken counts as prey animal.
the only diff was it was cooked. because a reputable large snake breeder said it was SAFER. several people said so.
but she had the whole thing.
thanks again
I have never been speechless in my whole life until now. lol. I think this thread is about to get really nasty.lol
Only if everyone wants to keep being dramafied morons.
i personally am done. They can end it now and stop talking to me or stop talking crap to me, or i will tell them exactly what i think yet again and leave the forum completely. either way im happy.
Sane, you're being extremely rude. As Coy said, if YOU "know it all" don't ask all the questions that you did and expect a positive response.
It's hard to take you seriously when you are speaking the way you are and asking if you should feed your snake chicken breasts.
You won't be able to feed mice, too small, you're looking at rats and rabbits +.
I have some other things to say to you but maybe I'll just keep them to myself at this point.. :rolleyes:
Aaron_S
01-28-09, 10:24 AM
First of all yes I have kept burmese pythons. So I am not just spouting information randomly.
Secondly, I gave advice and answered your questions with the information I was given! Don't come here and call anyone names based on their answers when you NEVER told us in the first place that these chickens were grown on a private farm and handed over to you with feathers and all. Which is the way the prey needs to be fed. If your friends know so much they would then know that the snake won't get anything from eating the raw chicken. They don't get samonella.
Pet stores are terrible resources for snake keeping so your arguments hold no water when it's backed up with pet store people.
So take a picture of the HUGE enclosure? Oh...you only use a 75 gal "picture taking" tank? Really? Until I see this new enclosure I am going to presume you just keep it in the 75 gal since you have substrate, logs and a heating lamp placed over it.
You can't train a snake. It's never happened before and probably never will. A snake that 'lays' with another snake in the same enclosure isn't trying to be cuddly. Snakes do it because it's probably where the hot spot is in the cage, or the best hiding spot. In the wild, which is were science gets it's information a lot of the time, they aren't found to be communal animals at all. They live alone and only search one another out for breeding.
You also need to know that if any of your friends apparantly have a snake over 30 feet long and can prove it, there's a 50 thousand dollar reward still out there I believe. It's been out there for over a decade solely because any snake over 30 feet is exceptionally difficult to find. Only a retic would most likely make it past the 30 foot mark. A burm would be considered massive at 20 feet. Usually people really don't measure their snakes properly.
Aaron_S
01-28-09, 10:28 AM
I am a 27 yr old female from the US, I have had alot of friends with snakes and learned a few things over the years, And have always wanted my own. Well I just bought a 8 ft Burmese Python from a friend of mine.
So here in this post, the original, it says that you have always wanted your own. So with your own words everyone here thought this was your first snake. Again, noone can read your mind or knows anything more than what you put here in this post so we base our answers off this.
angie_85
01-28-09, 04:11 PM
I know I shouldn't really say much here but I have seen so much contradiction that I think Sane should go back and read her first post. One thing you did say was that you wanted to be able to take her out by yourself, and you now say that you never would. Read the whole thread through because people are just going by what you said. Also if you want people to take you seriously, try not cursing, be respectful, and if you ask for advice expect people to give it to you. People here don't like my first post either, and think that I am stupid, but I asked for opinions and got them. If you already knew everything, you should have asked whatever you wanted to know and that's it. The people on here are not stupid, they are very experienced, which is why I too came asking questions. Sure they can be a bit rude and somewhat hostile themselves, but try and respect everyone's opinions. I can also say that seeing this post, and having my own, where I felt attacked and don't like much being called stupid, I would like to say that people come on here for advice, not to be rediculed. If you make someone feel attacked, some are going to respond in the way that Sane has. People ask for advice, not a lecture. I thought that this was going to be a good experience and so far, it has been horrible. Not because people disagree with me but because people are down right rude.
Chu'Wuti
01-28-09, 07:30 PM
Whew! That makes me feel soooo much better—thanks, Julian!
holier than thou idiots would like to think.
I knew id get **** from alot of you that think you know it all,
Think they know? At the very least, Aaron, Mykee, and Julian are definitely experts in snake-keeping. I never made a claim to be an expert, particularly with Burmese Pythons, but I do know that snakes are solitary animals and do not do well together, and I do know that snakes are healthier when fed appropriate diets.
From there, reading the rest of that post from "Sane", and the next, and the next, and the next ad nauseum, I became more and more shocked.
Sane, you just joined this month. You can't make any claims to credibility because you haven't been a member of the forum long enough. We don’t know you. We were all responding to your first post, in which you presented yourself as a newbie to snake-keeping. You asked quite a number of questions that reinforced our perception that you are a newbie to snake-keeping.
Now you want us to believe that you merely asked those questions “to be nice and start a convo.” I don’t think it’s very nice when you ask questions you don’t want answers to and then attack us for responding.
At one point you stated that you were leaving (post 39) and then you posted 10 more times after that. Nearly every one of your last 11 posts have been the most vitriolic, ad hominem attacks I have ever seen. In contrast:
Angie, yes, some people sometimes come across as a bit rude. Sometimes frustration with new snake owners' lack of information, mistakes, and obstinacy about accepting information that contradicts what they want to believe gets to the really experienced people here. I agree that's not good and that we shouldn't ridicule people for ignorance when they've come here for information. I thank you for your calm and reasoned way of pointing this out.
Sane, there is a great deal of research on reptilian brains. They do not have an ability to feel emotion the way mammals do. However, I will not endeavor to try to share any further information with you, as you have made it clear that you don't want it. Perhaps you will be much happier on another herp forum. I wish you all the best with your snake and in your life.
Angie, I'm really sorry that your experience here has been so unpleasant. I hope you will forgive us and stick around--these guys are really very nice, caring people at heart, I promise! I also apologize that we let our frustration overcome our good judgment about the best ways to help others learn.
angie i don't hate you lol!!!!!!!!!!!! Hell im suprised i haven't gotten some awful responses since i've been on here but im sure i will sooner or later i do a lot of research and absorb it but im pretty new to this. hang in there angie.
body_xs_j
01-29-09, 03:44 AM
welcome sane =p Nice pics keep us posted...
dexter 1988
01-29-09, 03:47 PM
[
Any advice is good!
Also we feed her cooked chicken, not mice, rabbits or rats, Same as my old friend did the first snake i was ever around. She likes that fine. My friend that sold her to me started her on it for me when I told him it is what im gonna be feeding her. Im vegetarian, I couldnt handle the animals with a face thing...
start to feed her real food like mice, rabbits or rats and start to handle the animals face's you want the snake. you want good advices give her back. NOT TO BE A *** BUT THATS GOOD ADVICES.
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 09:45 AM
STOP.feeding cooked chickens. start feedig mice, rabbits or rats, you want her WHAT YOU THINK SHE IS GOING TO COOK HER FOOD IN the WILD.IF U CAN'T HANDLE THE FACES THEN GAVE HER BACK TO YOUR FRIEND EVEN BETTER GIVE IT TO SMOEONE WHO WILL CARE FOR HER BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND DID NOT KNOW HOW TO AND BAST IT OFF TO YOU AND YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO CARE FOR HER. and if u keep on feed COOKED CHICKEN u will have one BIG dead snake because she wont get the nutrition she NEEDS.just never heared feeding cook food lol lol lol i hope your new snake makes it a year. i feel bad for the snake.
dude read the entire thread we already made these points. she gets the chicken whole just minus the head from a farmer friend of hers. that is fine. who cares if it is cooked. ya it is kinda strange but it's ok. don't get on here just to bash someone without reading the entire thread first.
dexter 1988
01-30-09, 02:29 PM
man cooked food is not good for the snake most of the nutrition is now lots i hope u dont cook your snakes food. i readed the entire thread first and just want her i know again that cooked food is not good and when you cut the head off you loss blood and other nutrition by doing that she wanted the snake u have to suck it up and feed the snake the food it needes or one day she will awake with a BIG dead snake not to be mean but it's true
Chu'Wuti
01-30-09, 10:14 PM
Yes, almost all of us think that may occur, Dexter--but we've all said it already, and all it did was get her mad. She doesn't want to hear it. She refuses to hear it. Flaming her isn't going to change her mind.
Personally, I'm beginning to think this thread should be deleted or locked. Boots?
you're right cooking the thing isn't he best and probably isn't good but it's better than what we thought that she was feeding chicken breasts. and i chu is right she is set in her ways and argueing anymore isn't going to do anything except start a fight in here with her. sometimes you just leave it alone and the person will come around after a while. sometimes you have to just gain people's trust before you can get them to change something. ya delete this thread is my vote!!!!! and u can even see earlier in the thread where i even agreed that it wasnt the best.
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