Eating Again! Part 1 of 3

[Chu'Wuti]

For the past couple of months, I've been trying to persuade my BP to switch to rats. I've tried all the suggestions (prescenting by thawing mice & rats together, thawing in enclosure, not moving him to feeding enclosure, trying pinky rats, etc.) Nothing was working. He'd either reject everything or take the mouse but not the rat, and if I offered bigger prey it was even worse. He was losing weight, so I decided to go back to the acceptable prey temporarily and try switching to rats again in the spring. I also decided to increase in prey size gradually rather than radically even though this guy should be eating larger prey.

Success! I'm posting photos, but first let me tell you a bit about the first mouse. I made it act as if it was on the branch the BP was on and backing away from the BP. Great interest! BP grabs & wraps mouse and promptly falls off the branch! I was laughing so hard I forgot to take any photos. After he got that one down, he went back up on the branch--after all, where there was one, there might be more, right? ;)

Here's the next mouse wrap (using the same technique of twitching the mouse along the branch away from the BP):

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008023.jpg

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008022-1.jpg

He felt himself falling and wrapped his tail tightly around the branch. Then the biggest part of his body, on the back side of the branch, began to slip, so he tightened his neck up against the branch:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008024.jpg

[Chu'Wuti]

Part 2 of 3:

Finally it's "dead" enough to eat and he's got his balance/wrap figured out so he won't fall:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008026.jpg

Start swallowing:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008028.jpg

Use gravity to help:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008029.jpg

[Chu'Wuti]

Part 3 of 3:

Carefully creep back up over the branch:

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008030.jpg

Are there more?

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/ChuWuti/Christmas2008031.jpg

Next time we'll go for three prey items (this totaled 25 gr of prey) and move up in size again after that. By March I'm thinking the BP's weight will be back up (and then some, I hope!) and he'll be ready to try rats again.

[citysnakes]

im glad you finally got him to eat.:)

what size tank are you keeping that little guy in??

[st3v3n]

:no:i bought a blood python a week n a half ago n i try feeding it n wont even look at the stupid mouse. think anything is worng with it?¿. thx.

[Chu'Wuti]

It's a 55-gallon. He loves it--lots of places to hang out & explore, including a loop where I accidentally melted a plastic bracket! He loves to go up into the loop and hang out over the water bowl.

[siz]

st3v3n, if you just got your blood you might need to give him some time to adjust. Also the cold weather kind of turns them off food. Snakes can go a long time without eating, he should be fine.

Oh, and YAY Chu! "Are..are there more?" Hahaha.

[Chu'Wuti]

st3ven, just let your blood hang out without handling him for at least a week. He's probably pretty stressed about his new environment and about you. Keep in mind that to your snake, you're Godzilla--a giant predator. Let him get used to the environment first. As siz said, it's also possible that cold weather and short days/long nights (winter) has him thinking he shouldn't eat much.

Oh, and how big is the enclosure you're using? Is he a hatchling or quite young? If so, the enclosure should be fairly small so he doesn't feel lost in a big area.

Double-check all your humidity, light, & heat settings to ensure he's warm enough, has the appropriate moisture levels, etc.

Here are links to care sheets & info:

Blood Pythons, Information and Care | Vida Preciosa International, Inc. (http://www.vpi.com/publications/blood_pythons_information_and_care)

and
New England Reptile Distributors, designer Ball Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and much more! (http://www.newenglandreptile.com/CareBlood.html)

When you try to feed him again, only offer food at night after the sun has set, as blood pythons are nocturnal. Thaw the food item in or on top of or near your enclosure so that the scent of the thawing prey stimulates his appetite. When you offer the prey, make sure it's all warm and the head is quite warm, then offer it so that it appears to twitch (show signs of life).

I'm sure others will have more ideas to share, too--the members of this forum are great for helping out with tricky situations!

And siz, Thanks!

[citysnakes]

Chu, i asked because the tank does look pretty huge for such a small ball python and i was going to suggest that if you continue to have feeding issues with him then you may want to consier swapping to a smaller enclosure until he gets a little bigger.

[Kmef07]

St3v3n--
Chu's advice was awesome let him sit for a week or so undisturbed and then try again. if it doesn't work then take a brown paper bag and thaw the mouse out and get the mouse really warm. if you have a under the tank heater (uth) put the bag with the mouse in it over the uth and let it sit over night on it's side so your blood can crawl inside as if it were a burrow that should give it some satisfaction of being hidden.

[Aaron_S]

Hey Steven, I have a borneo short tail python and she's been nothing but great for me thus far.

Let us know what your temperatures are and how you're currently keeping the snake. The curtus genus of snakes tend to be fairly picky with eating. Moreso than any ball python.

[Chu'Wuti]

i was going to suggest that if you continue to have feeding issues with him then you may want to consider swapping to a smaller enclosure until he gets a little bigger.

Yeah, I kinda figured you were wondering about that, Julian!

The thing is, if I feed him mice, he'll eat, and if I offer rats he won't eat. In addition, he really does seem to be very comfortable in the tank. He's explored it all. At night he comes out (every night) and arranges himself in a position that we can only describe as predator watching for prey. He'll hang out on the branch above the water bowl for awhile, then in the loop above the water bowl for awhile, then he'll go to the other end and hang out there for awhile. He has two hides and we're considering putting in a third. He doesn't appear to be at all stressed and will eat mice just fine. So I really don't think the tank size is an issue, just the rats. *sigh*

At this point, if he will eat mice & gain weight, that's what we're going to do. In March we'll try rats again. However, if I run into difficulties feeding mice, you can be sure I'll reconsider the enclosure! I have an empty 20-gallon upstairs that we could use . . .

[citysnakes]

im sure he'll come around sooner or later. good luck getting him on rats!

[st3v3n]

thanks 4 the advice guys. i got him from all pets clud she was the biggest one so figured she must b eating. shes about 1.5 to 2 ft long i tried mice n a small rat . she smelled the rat with her toung thats about it. oh i buy the live roadents then per kill them? good or no good. she is beautifull. n how do i post a thread? its a 30 gallon wide tank w a humitity box n a normal hide w a water bowle. red heat light n a basking light. humitiy is 60 percent but in the hide is 70 . to 80 percrnt. i got keepers choice tropical red cypress . n a preety good size under tank heater. thanks every one 4 helping.

[st3v3n]

gust got one bout 2 ft long not eating been bout A week.? hoW do i make a post.

[Chu'Wuti]

gust got one bout 2 ft long not eating been bout A week.? hoW do i make a post.

Regarding posting, your posts are appearing now. When you first join, a moderator reviews your posts before they can appear, and as the moderators have real lives outside of this great forum and there can be quite a number of new members every day, the moderators can't review every post immediately. So it can take a day or two (or occasionally more) before your very first posts get reviewed and posted.

After the initial review process, your posts will appear immediately, which I think is happening now for you.

Regarding your blood python, first of all, don't worry. He most likely just needs time to adjust. He will not starve to death immediately--some snakes go for weeks or even months without eating.

Give us some more details about him. You say he's about 2 feet long; what's his diameter at the widest part of his body? What was the store or breeder feeding him (type, size, & frozen or live)? How did you offer the prey item to your snake?

[Aaron_S]

Let him sit for a week. Do not disturb the snake in the least. Maybe change water or something. Otherwise let it be. Make sure your temperatures aren't too high because they tend to like temperatures cooler than ball pythons. I would recommend around
88F hot spot. They also need higher humidity. I suggest around a 70 - 80% and mine does well in that. What are you using for your substrate?

[Chu'Wuti]

Aaron_S-- ;)

Everyone has to learn sometime! I like our forum being such an educational site!

[Aaron_S]

I know...I know...I tried hard not to...

[st3v3n]

hey thx 4 ur concerns n help. i just put saran wrap over a lil more than half the tank 2 keep the humitiy in. now in mid 70s to low 80. percent witch is good b4 it was 40 to 50 percent. n b4 they think they feed him frozen mice. but i offerd him a per killed one even live n even tried a pre killed rat n he seemd a lil more interesed in that n the beading is red cypress keepers choice. but ima give her a week without touchin her. its so hard tho cuz i love snakes. ima try 2 post a pic of her maby once she is eatin. oh n i just got her a better hide she been in that all day lol. but ya if any 1 is having humitity problems try covering half the screen w saran wrap but not the whole thing duhh lol.... thanks guys alot of good advice :-)

[Chu'Wuti]

beading is red cypress

Hey, guys--cypress doesn't have the toxic phenols that cedar & pine have? I haven't seen any info stating it does & a lot stating it's commonly used . . .

St3v3n, glad you raised the humidity; that should help. I know it's really hard to leave your brand new pet alone, but we all have found that the less stress the better, and just moving to a new environment is a lot of stress.

[Aaron_S]

I originally kept my girl in a tank with some paper towel as the substrate and then she had three hides. One on the cool side, one over the heatpad and another in the middle filled with moss, to make her a humid hide. She liked the one where she could curl up and feel really secure in the best. I now have her in a rubbermaid with eco-earth and no hides. She kinda burrows and still eats amazingly well.

The Curtus family are pigs. If you think it's big enough to eat a larger meal, try it, most likely it'll be ok. Pre-killed should be fine.

[st3v3n]

wow. thx agen 4 ur help really. after all day yesterday of beaing in her new hide she iz starting to poke her nose out, so happy lol :-} i bought this automatic spray bottle to mist the cage n its alot better on the hand lol. well thx guys n any more lil tricks u got b sure 2 share oh can u mate a blood with a ball python j/w.?¿

[Chu'Wuti]

can u mate a blood with a ball python j/w.

Just off the top of my head, I would say no. They are entirely different species:

Python curtis is the blood python (with three subspecies that I know of)

Python regius is the royal or ball python (no subspecies, many morphs)

In some animals, interspecies breeding is possible, but it often has to be forced or accomplished artificially because the animals behave differently enough that breeding isn't stimulated. But this is just off the top of my head and I don't know for sure.

We need Aaron_S or Mykee or Julian at citysnakes.com to weigh in on this, because I am no expert when it comes to breeding. Guys?

[Aaron_S]

It's already been done. It's known as the "superball". I do believe it's been done with a borneo short tail python bred to a ball python. Not quite sure who was the mother or father but it's been done. Looks kinda neat but it's a lot of hassle. Hybridization is a very hot topic, mostly because unlike most other animals, reptiles that are hybrids remain fertile so it can really screw up bloodlines.

[st3v3n]

oh. well would u say it would probely b a bad thing to try? n thx agen this site iz great...

[Aaron_S]

If you've never bred anything. Yes it's a bad thing to try. What's the point? You'll most likely waste your time, the snakes time when you could just breed "pure" bloods and balls.

[st3v3n]

oh k thx Aaron. is it preety cool breeding snakes never done it b4 my 2 bps are keept 2gather n the feamal deffently got eegs any good tips wat to do wen she lays them. humitiy percent? n beding info. thx wat to do wen they pop out how long does it take 4 them 2 hatch.

[st3v3n]

my bearded bragon laid eggs n ate them y ? she has plent of freash food n creekets.

[siz]

Hmm..you shouldn't keep your 2 ball pythons together.
As for the beardie, I am pretty sure you need to remove the eggs. Beardies will eat anything, including little baby beardies. Had you mated your female or did she lay infertile eggs?

[Kmef07]

well isn't it obvious she just had a craving for eggs. lol. all women right after birth have cravings and heaven help you if you stand in the way of that craving lol.

[st3v3n]

lol... thier is a male in her tank with her so i belive they were firtle..... y shouldent keep the 2 balls 2gather?¿ j.w ,..... thx

[Kmef07]

Because snakes for the most part are solitary animals, however if the cage is big enough then there should be no problem keeping two snakes of the same species together. that is unless they are known to not like being with other snakes which some species are. another common problem with housing snakes together is that it is easier to transmit diseases between them. if they are male and female and the female is not of sexual maturity then they could mate before she is ready and i heard it can cause the female to die. but if both snakes are friendly with each other and they are about the same size and either both sexually mature or of the same gender there shouldn't be a problem. there are some reports where you should introduce them to each other slowly in a cage neither of them have been in as a home because then they are less likely to be territorial. but i plan on getting another BRB to live in the same cage as my other one the cage is equivalent to 800 gallons though. just make sure you watch them for the first couple days and make sure they aren't stressing each other out because that can be unhealthy.

[citysnakes]

most likely the animals will cause stress to each other regardless of what you think you are seeing. they will always be competing for something like the safest or warmest spot inside the enclosure and the more dominant animal will always do better than the other less dominant one. theres lots of reasons why bps should be housed individually.

one example being the fact that one of your ball pythons may soon lay a clutch of eggs and youre asking what to do with them. my tip is find a book on breeding balls, get educated on the topic and get all the things you need to successfully hatch these eggs before they come because they wont just hatch inside a fish tank with two ball pythons already living in it. good luck.

[Kmef07]

Citysnakes......if i have a huge tank with multiple hot spots and hides and stuff do you think it would be fine to house my BRB with another BRB?

[siz]

Sorry I should have elaborated..Ball pyhthons are easily stressed, even by other ball pythons, and for all the reasons mentioned above. I guess you can house them together, but why take the chance?

[Chu'Wuti]

St3ven, Kevin McCurley's book The Complete Ball Python might be a good starting place.

Kmef07, you can house two snakes together during a breeding activity, but if you do it routinely, you might end up with only one snake.

As siz said, Why take the chance?

Aaron_S, thank you for answering the question about interspecies breeding--I could only guess on that. I've assumed that a super ball is just another morph of Python regius; guess I'd better educate myself some more!

It's really interesting what this thread has generated!

[st3v3n]

ok. thx n my red blood python roxie is starting to streach out of her hide about 6 inches at night. maby gettin used 2 her new home =-}

[Chu'Wuti]

That's great, Steven! She'll venture out soon, I bet!

[Aaron_S]

Don't bet on it. People think ball pythons are lazy? Bloods are even LAZIER! They are a very lazy. They burrow in the wild and just stay there until prey walks past. Really. My borneo never left either of it's hides at all unless I took it out to handle then put it near the one it wasn't in. Barely move. They don't need to.

Kmef07, doesn't matter the species, do not keep them together. No matter how large the enclosure is, the snakes are going to migrate to the best possible areas to give them their needs. The best hot spot, the best hide spot, the best cool spot, they'll both go there.

[Chu'Wuti]

Don't bet on it.

:( Guess my optimism is misplaced. Boo-hoo! But I readily defer to Aaron's greater knowledge!

[Aaron_S]

I could be wrong though. Each snake can decide to do something different. They just aren't very mobile snakes.

[st3v3n]

ok thank u. would u say i should try feeding her? n if so wen n dead or alive i kno alive is dangrous 4 the snakes but my balls wont eat pre killed... should i leave her in the tank n place the rats head in front of her hide....? ur opions r greatly needed thx guys.

[Chu'Wuti]

What has she been fed previously? If she's already used to F/T food, then continue feeding her that. If she's only been fed live prey, then you may want to feed live a time or two then start transferring her to F/T prey.

As I have never gone through the process of switching a snake from live to F/T prey, maybe Aaron_S can help you with that.

[st3v3n]

well the pet store said f/t but couldent give me a size one said adult mouse other small rat... i think she is startin to get hungry tho. she seems 2 be smelling the air w het toung alot more.. thx chu'wuti .. 4 ur info

[st3v3n]

hey Aaron can u post a pic of ur short tail ?????? =-]

[Chu'Wuti]

the pet store said f/t but couldent give me a size

I suggest you go for rats. You can get F rat pups around 25 gms, which is the size of the average adult mouse. If you buy them online in bulk, you'll spend a lot less $$ than you would buying one or two at a time at a pet store.

If you could find out whether the pet store had fed her mice or rats before, it would help. Some snakes don't switch easily from mice to rats. However, it's worth a shot, because your blood will get big enough to warrant larger rats or multiple mice later. Multiple mice will be more expensive than one rat in the long run.

[st3v3n]

ok will try that... um got another question my blood has been like yawning or streaching his mouth wide open any 1 kno y? maby he wants me to drop supper in it lol...

[Smilts]

nevermind sorry

[Chu'Wuti]

Usually snakes gape only occasionally. Most often this occurs after a meal, as it is how they get their jaws back together. (I'm sure there's a more technical way to describe this but it escapes me at the moment!) They have to unhinge their jaws to swallow their prey; they gape (yawn) to rehinge.

Now if your snake is gaping frequently, I would start wondering if there's a piece of substrate caught in its mouth. Someone else may have some more experience with this. Other comments/ideas?

[Aaron_S]

There's too reasons a snake gapes. One is as you said Chu to realign it's jaw or yawn. The other is because it's nostrils are all plugged up with mucus due to a respitory infection and it's trying to breathe. Check for mucus build up, listen to hear the snake "wheeze". It would also be the cause of your snake not wanting to eat. I don't think you've told us the temperatures yet either which would help.

I think I have a picture somewhere... I'll pull it up sometime...

[citysnakes]

St3V3n, so what you are doing to try to get your blood to eat? in some cases snakes wont eat if their needs arent met. so make so your warm and cool end temps are where they should be and make sure your blood has a hide on each side. this will make sure that the snake does not have to choose between thermoregulating and feeling secure. also make sure you are measuring the temps with a digital thermometer so you can be cetain of what they are. after these corrections are made attempt to feed her at least a week later and make sure not to handle her until she is a consistent feeder for you. try feeding her only at night after presecenting the room by defrosting a f/t rat near her enclosure or if youre feeding live presecent the room simply by leaving the live rat near the enclosure until your ready to feed.

if she is gaping due to a respiratory infection that could be another reason why shes not eating so you should get her to a vet to fix that asap.

i know you didnt ask but i hope this will help. good luck.

[st3v3n]

thx guys .. uh i would hear a weez if its a (RPI) right? n the humitiy is 70 to 80 percrnt i gotta get a thermoiter or w.e i got a hot box n a cold box on each side.... water bowle in the middle. heat light / uth n a basking light. ...but thiers seems to b dried shin lije a peice of shed like most of her lower jaw .. tried to get it off soaked her rubed it it started stressun her out tho.. n i lissend very closly i i heard no weez n no mucous thay i can see she looks healthy the only thing i can c is that pice of shead like her whole lower jaw is that bad cuz i cant get it off. wen dhe gaped or yawned.. i dident see nuttin stuck in her mouth. um, could i wait till she sheads 4 that piece of shead 2 come off.. n her eye lide seems 2 have a ripple im it like it anit smooth in the middle..?

[Aaron_S]

First off, please spell check your posts before posting. It's getting difficult to understand.

Now that that is out of the way...if the eye is not smooth then it's either a shed problem or a humidity problem. If the humidity is where you say it is, then it SHOULD be a stuck eye cap.

For the skin underneath the head, if it's actually a stuck shed, then you should be able to rub it off with your fingers after a good soaking.

I hope you can really sort this out. Can you post pictures of the enclosure and of the snake?

[Chu'Wuti]

If there is some shed stuck to her lower jaw, that may be what's causing her to gape--she may be trying to dislodge it. Have you seen her rubbing against rough surfaces? Has she been soaking?

You might try the burlap bag soak method--soak a burlap bag or bag of other rough material in water (80-85 deg), then put your snake in it for about 10 hours. It could help her get whatever is on her lower jaw off.

[Kmef07]

my ball that died had that same problem that yours is having. the not eating the yawning and the skin on the bottom jaw. My ball died before i could figure out the problem but i would just let her be and check the temp. maybe increase it a little and even clean the cage and go back to the basics. paper towels for substrate two hides and a water bowl. mine had some mucas so i think mine had a respitory infection. watever you do don't try and handle it too much because i did that and it seemed to stress my ball out.

[st3v3n]

uuuuhhhhhhh man.. ok the hot hide is 82.6 F the cold one is 77.8F thats the temps. i tried rubbing it off after a soaking but she dont soak her head under. n i will try to have my x girl to post a pic b'cuz i am typing off nintendo wii not a comp. but i might try that burlap bag trick. i had offerd a live mouse last night n she seemed very intersted in it i thought she would eat it. after bout a hour n a half i killed the mouse n put it with her in her hide all night n she dident eat it..... but looked liked she wanted 2. she dosent look skinny at all/ not fat either.. ill try 2 post picks photo bucket right?

[Kmef07]

ya photo bucket. u need to increase the temps to between 88-90 and cold side at about 80. if you have a screen top just cover it with a towl or something i use a towel right over the lamps. they cannot get hot enough to start a fire. wait a week before you try feeding again if you keep trying a lot of stuff all at once you will stress her out and she will get worse. just increase ur temps and then after a couple days if she seems happy and stuff try the sack trick with the shed problem and then a couple days after that try and feed her again. just be patient it takes time

[st3v3n]

ok thx 07.

[Kmef07]

Hope that helps somewhat

[citysnakes]

uuuuhhhhhhh man.. ok the hot hide is 82.6 F the cold one is 77.8F thats the temps.

raise those temps to where they need to be and you'll have a better chance for a successful feeding. you ve had this blood for a few weeks now right? i think you should do a little bit of research on the species and your time with her will be much more enjoyable.

[Chu'Wuti]

you should do a little bit of research on the species and your time with her will be much more enjoyable.

Agreed. There are plenty of care sheets on the web; just google "species name care sheet" or "blood python care sheet" and you will find them.

Snakes won't eat when it's too cold because they can't digest the food properly.

[st3v3n]

i read most of the care sheets...but how wouc i increass the temp

[Kmef07]

a higher wattage heat lamp or a bigger uth or cover the top more. there are many ways but a bigger uth will usually help or a ceramic heater but i don't particuarly like them.

[citysnakes]

i read most of the care sheets...but how wouc i increass the temp

why dont you describe your entire setup to us first. maybe even take a few pics. then we can help you better.

[Chu'Wuti]

Hey, since we're on the subject of heat, I'm having a problem. I think.

It seems that my ceramic heat lamp for my hot zone is dying. It's only about six months old--is that typical? I unplugged it and plugged it back in and it began working again, but this evening it seems to have quit again. I'm thinking I should replace it, but with what?

I'm not worried about my BP freezing, as he has a UTH that's working well, but it's in the warm zone, and I still need a hot zone.

[Aaron_S]

So why not just put the UTH under the hot zone, and voila... a new hot zone with a cool zone at the other end. I've never used ceramic heat lamps so I am unsure of what the cause to your problem is.

[st3v3n]

I have a xtra large heat pad!