View Full Version : Once easy-to-feed BP on a feeding strike?
LadyParvati
12-01-08, 03:14 PM
OK, everyone, I now have to eat my words about my easy-to-feed BP! He's quit eating. Will you please share the benefit of your experience with me?
This BP is about 7-8 months old. I purchased him (?) in June (June 21); he had been fed only mice pinkies. I upgraded him to hoppers as of June 23. On June 28, he weighed 133 grams and was about 16" long. By October (with encouragement from posters here), I had upgraded him to rat pups (35 grams each), and he took the rats readily the first two times I offered them.
On Nov. 2, he shed. The shed is a little over 29" long. Nov. 3, he ate one rat pup and one hopper mouse (refused a second rat pup). On November 10, he weighed 305 grams.
However, since Nov. 3, he has refused to eat. :S Today, he weighs 287 gms.
I've watched for behavioral signals as an indication of hunger, such as hunting, hanging out over the water bowl (must be watching for some critter to come get a drink so he can drop on it, right?) and tried to offer F/T prey as soon as possible after noting these signs. Unfortunately, the result has only been that I have had to throw out quite a number of rats and mice.
I've tried both separately and together, and I've tried warming them together to mix their smells. He smells of them carefully but won't eat either.
I've tried _not_ taking him out to feed him (previously I had always followed the instructions I was given to take him out of his vivarium and put him in a feeding container for feeding, and he always ate immediately until three weeks ago).
I've tried using a feeding tongs (which I hadn't previously used, again without any problems).
I've tried leaving the prey in the vivarium with him for several hours.
Last night I tried again, reverting to all previous _successful_ feeding actions--i.e., take him out of the vivarium, put him in the feeding container, let him relax & start exploring, warm up the F/T prey, offer it without using the tongs. No success.
Several of you have suggested that a decrease in appetite is normal at this time of year (decreasing light hours and/or decreasing temperature leads to decrease in appetite). However, I've also been told that some snakes' appetites seem to _increase_ as the temp decreases . . . :confused: I'd be OK with the lack of appetite due to seasonal changes if it weren't for the fact that this is _not_ a full-grown BP, and he's losing weight.
I've been told that they eat less often as they get older. OK, but--a full month between meals seems excessive.
A couple of you guys have mentioned slitting the skull of the F/T prey (yech, but I'll do it if it is necessary). How do you do that? Do you use a knife or scalpel or ?? How long a slit? How much brain do I need to expose?
As it has been nearly a month now, I'm a little concerned and would feel better with some input from more experienced BP keepers. Thanks, everyone!
LadyParvati
12-01-08, 03:49 PM
Added info for the BP on feeding strike:
I tried increasing the night-time temps by leaving on a red light, because I was worried that the temp in the vivarium was dropping too low at night. That dries things out, but I've increased humidifying measures to maintain 70% humidity or a bit more. He always has a big bowl of water. Currently, during the daytime, there is a cool zone (70-75 deg. F), warm zone (80-85 deg. F where there's an undertank heat pad), and hot zone (87-95 deg. F range as the overhead ceramic heat lamp cycles on & off--controlled by a thermostat). Have a Zilla power center with separate day & night controls for the separate digital thermostat/regulators with remote temperature probes set inside the vivarium where he spends most of his time. Night & day temps differ no more than 10 deg. F according to the care sheets. The heat pad doesn't drop below 80 deg at night, and the hot zone doesn't drop below 85.
He has two hides, one in the warm zone over the heat mat which he uses occasionally, and the other under the ceramic heat lamp. He uses the latter most often. I've put damp sphagnum moss in both for added humidity, and since I began putting in the moss, he's not bathing/soaking as much, so he apparently likes the extra humidity.
Ask if more info would be useful.
Aaron_S
12-01-08, 04:30 PM
Well I don't think he's really losing weight Sandy. If he weighed 305 grams and you fed him a rat pup (which you said weighed 35 grams) and a hopper mouse, the loss of 18 grams is probably from his waste.
Don't worry about things. I do believe your entire enclosure may be a little too hot for the little bugger. I think you need another hide in the cool zone, if you have one. If I understand correctly you have a heat pad on one side, and a ceramic heat emitter on the other side?
I also believe that he's just gone off food for the season. Some snakes just do it. No matter there age. It's natural for them so I wouldn't sweat it.
Sandy, you are SO over-worrying something that is not to be worried about. The only suggestion other than this being natural and often occuring, is that he was fed too much too young (35g rat for a 140g snake? am I reading correctly here?) I don't feed my 500g babies rats that are 35g. It's possible that he ate too much and grew too large too fast and this is his way of self-regulating.
Whatever the reason, don't sweat the small stuff. Yes, this is small stuff....
LadyParvati
12-02-08, 10:56 AM
Wow, this is TOO funny! Michael, on another forum, I was _blasted_ for 1) him not growing fast enough/shedding often enough (like once a month or less) and 2) not feeding this BP larger prey and "encouraged" (ordered?) to get him onto rats--at least 50g--ASAP. Even here, some people encouraged larger prey. So--being of a somewhat cautious nature--I moved him up to the smaller size. However, by the time I offered the 35 gm rat pup, the BP weighed over 270 gms.
Aaron, the enclosure is a 55-gallon aquarium with one end cool, middle warm, other end hot zone. I wondered if things were getting _too_ warm, so the past two nights I've left the red lights off. Glad to have some confirmation that leaving the lights off is probably best. The under-tank heat mat is set to 85 deg (that's the middle) & on top of the moss it's always 80deg, so I figure he can go get warm there if he gets too cold elsewhere, or he can get up on his branch to bask under the heat lamp where it's warmer.
Michael, your mention of not feeding your 500 gm babies rats of 35 gm makes me wonder--should I go back to smaller prey? This guy was able to swallow the 35 gm rat pups no problem, albeit slower than swallowing the mice. He had previously eaten a total of 50 gm of mice at one feeding. Also, if you're feeding smaller prey, are you feeding rats or mice? I was told that I should be feeding rats already because he'd be too hard to switch from mice to rats if I waited any longer.
Guys, thanks so much!
Sandy, I can't speak for members on other forums, but I will say that they're all idiots. I prefer to stick with the 10% body weight rule when feeding (you haven't heard about it because it's my rule). I don't feed anything larger than 10% of their own body weight. (Different rules apply for anything over 3000g). I've been experimenting over the years with item size, and I found that 10% food item is optimal for retained weight and turn around time for poops and next feedings. Too many owners try to get the largest meal they can into their snakes cause I guess maybe it's the manly thing to do? I don't know. I find that if you feed smaller melas more consistently, you have better overall growth and less problems. Slow and steady always wins the race, unless you've entered a fast and wobbly race....
LadyParvati
12-02-08, 05:16 PM
I can't speak for members on other forums, but I will say that they're all idiots. LOL!
I'm already wobbly enough on my own, thank you--think I'll go for slow & steady!
I get the idea is to pack it in & make 'em grow as fast as possible. So at 300 gm, this guy should be eating 30 gm snacks. Got it!
Aaron_S
12-02-08, 05:26 PM
I wouldn't say feeding the largest prey item possible is "the manly thing to do". It's the fastest way to get them to breeding size. I'm sure you've heard of the male ball pythons breeding at 9 months of age.
LadyParvati
12-02-08, 08:54 PM
Yes, I have.
Guys, I received a disturbing message from a poster on another forum that has me spooked, so I've changed to my bp's photo. He's grown since that photo, of course. Should've taken the hint from everyone else's photos--now my lack of Internet savvy is showing. Ah, well--live & learn.
The bp is hanging out on top of his stump right now, but I'm ignoring him. When do you guys think I should try feeding him again?
Sandy, too bad that was a GREAT pic....
"I'm sure you've heard of the male ball pythons breeding at 9 months of age. "
Aaron, I've had a six month old spider successfully breed 4 females and father me 21 eggs, and a 5 month old male clown breeding the ladies right now. Powerfeeding has nothing to do with it. Either they're ready, or they're not.
LadyParvati
12-02-08, 10:57 PM
Thank you for the compliment! Too much flattery will go to my head, though, so it's probably just as well the pic has been replaced! (And I should've been smarter, I think.)
Anyway, on to your young breeders . . .
Geez. You mean this BP could be ready to breed? Don't think I will, though--it would be better to invest in a couple of the fancier morphs, I think. Hmmm . . .
Here's our BP tonight, wrapped around my DH's arm:
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/LadyParvati/ThanksgivingEntertainment014.jpg
He's looking a bit dull, you know? I think he must be getting ready to shed again.
LadyParvati
12-02-08, 11:00 PM
Oh--the reason the pic got changed is because the disturbing message included info that the person is tracking me online. Guess he'll read this now . . . sheesh.
citysnakes
12-03-08, 01:39 AM
hey Lady, if youre still looking for suggestions to help get your BP to eat then maybe try moving him into a smaller enclosure and aim for two temperature zones: the cool end at 80-82 and the warm end at 88-92 with no night drop. naturally the temp may drop a couple degrees but dont try to drop it purposely. also keeping him on one type of feeder may help in getting him to eat consistently for you and if you go by "Mykee's size rule" you should be fine with rodent sizes.
as was said earlier, one month is not too long and is really nothing to worry about but correcting a few husbandry issues may help your snake to become a consistent feeder again and reduce any future hunger strikes.
hope this helps!:)
Aaron_S
12-03-08, 10:48 AM
Indeed it was a fine picture. Too bad you have a stalker. Very creepy.I hope that doesn't get any worse!
Aaron, I've had a six month old spider successfully breed 4 females and father me 21 eggs, and a 5 month old male clown breeding the ladies right now. Powerfeeding has nothing to do with it. Either they're ready, or they're not.
I stand corrected. Very incredible. Oh so you'll have het clowns?! Nice.
Aaron, I will almost certainly have het clowns as well as pastel het clowns for sale next year for sure. He's lovin' up a few super pastel ladies, so we're looking good over here...
Aaron_S
12-03-08, 07:58 PM
Very nice. I LOVE the clowns. Always have, even before they became popular.
PDXErik
12-07-08, 04:11 AM
hahahaa, me and my experience with the "OK I'LL EAT ANYTHING" ball pythons.
Ok, so I have 2.3 het pied balls now, all <160 grams. One wants to eat f/t
I can deal with that. The last I had was like that. I had fed it live mice until it was big enough for small rats (before I knew better). All but one will eat the f/t. I am debating just going through the "let them eat live mice until they're old enough and established and then switch them over" thing.
Terrible. I'll try p/k next.
Aaron_S
12-07-08, 07:45 AM
I would just use rat pinks/pups to switch them over now. So much easier feeding them rats. I have a cinnamon that was on fuzzy mice when I got it and she's had a rat pink with me so far so I'm hoping she sticks to them, although she didn't eat the last one I tried.
I've never had a problem (with over 600 hatchlings) getting any of my babies over to f/t rats in 10 meals. First meal is always a live mouse hopper. Second is a live mouse hopper. Third is a live rat pup that was in some mouse bedding. Same with the fourth. Fifth is a f/t rat pup. If they aren't taking the f/t rat pup, repeat third step and keep trying. Never had one that hasn't taken f/t rat by the tenth meal.
LadyParvati
12-10-08, 10:12 PM
Tonight, after not even trying for two weeks, I decided it was time to try again--going completely back to what had worked previously, including only offering mice. No contamination of those sweet mice with those stinky rats!
He ate. Only two hoppers--but that's better than not eating at all! I figure I can try again in a couple of days with a couple more.
YAY!!
I breed both mice and rats and I have to say I absolutely abhor mice; those bitey, popcorn & piss smelling little bastards, I HATE them!!! Rats are awesome; friendly, communal, I like them more than my stupid evil mice, that's for sure.
Aaron_S
12-11-08, 07:06 PM
Mice are terrible for cannibilization! I've been bitten a lot more by mice than I have rats. Thinking about it, I don't think I have been bitten by a rat yet.
LadyParvati
12-12-08, 08:48 AM
All true, all true--I didn't mean to offend anyone's rats! Just joking!
:sorry:
I was pretending to put myself into my BP's head--the last several times I tried to feed him, he'd smell carefully of the rat-mouse combo smell and refuse to eat. This time, there was no rat smell combined with the mouse smell, and he ate. So I was jokingly saying that he must prefer the mouse smell. Sorry I hurt your rats' and your feelings, guys! Rats are definitely much friendlier! :yes:
Aaron_S
12-12-08, 11:03 AM
I'm happy that your snake is eating again. I have a cinnamon female that's being a dink and won't eat for me again. She was on mice when I bought her, and she ate a f/t rat pink left in her tub and now she won't touch anything. I don't want to give into feeding mice again though. I may just try live.
PDXErik
12-12-08, 12:48 PM
Very nice. I LOVE the clowns. Always have, even before they became popular.
The clowns love you, too
http://mikeresponts.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/john-wayne-gacy.jpg
Aaron_S
12-12-08, 01:37 PM
Gacy is not a proper clown....
PDXErik
12-12-08, 05:25 PM
You're probably too old for him, anyway.
Aaron_S
12-12-08, 08:39 PM
Too true. As well I think he's dead.
Chu'Wuti
12-13-08, 10:57 AM
You guys crack me up! I had to google this guy to find out what you were talking about--ugh! And yes, he's dead--executed May 10, 1994 . . . Sounds like it was a good thing in his case!
Aaron _S said: She was on mice when I bought her, and she ate a f/t rat pink left in her tub and now she won't touch anything. I don't want to give into feeding mice again
Is it really a problem if a BP never switches to rats? Somewhere someone was talking about the relative nutritional value of mice compared to rats, but other than a claim that rats are more nutritious, I haven't seen any details--is there really a difference? Why?
I'm going to be making a decision about this one way or the other for my own BP soon, so any info is greatly appreciated!
There are huge nutritional differences between mice and rats but to be honest, I don'r remember where I read the info. Forget about that crap though, who wants to feed a 2000g mouse eater (that's a joke in itself, I've never seen a mouse eater ever come close to 200g) but who wants to feed an adult mouse eater 5-10 mice per meal, what a pain! Did I mention I hate mice?.....
Chu'Wuti
12-14-08, 06:00 PM
QUOTE]Did I mention I hate mice?.....
[/QUOTE]
Uh, yes, I forgot that part-- :sorry: !
And I don't blame you for not wanting to feed 5-10 F/T mice at a time!
OK, is this the time to say don't worry yet?
Chu'Wuti
12-15-08, 04:07 AM
Geez, Aaron_S, seems like we're passing your own advice back to you . . .:) Well, you probably aren't all that worried at this point anyway, right? ;-)
Thanks for confirming my feelings, Mykee!
So, is it better to feed rats than mice? My BP is just over a foot and a half long and roughly and inch and a half wide, I've been feeding mostly live mice, would you recommend I switch to rats, and if so, when would be appropriate?
It's ALWAYS without exception better to feed rats than mice. All my balls get a live mouse to start their eating lives, and then rats...forever.
citysnakes
12-15-08, 01:03 PM
as was already said, there are nutritional differences between rats and mice but one is not necessarily "better" to feed than the other. they both have pros and cons depending on your situation. i would think many people choose rats over mice because of the convenience of offering a single appropriately sized meal but there are people out there who exclusively feed their ball pythons mice and their snakes are just as healthy and happy as all of ours that eat rats.
siz, if you want to switch to rats then now would be just as good a time as any other.
Aaron_S
12-15-08, 05:19 PM
...but there are people out there who exclusively feed their ball pythons mice and their snakes are just as healthy and happy as all of ours that eat rats.
Unless these people are feeding their snakes easily 10 mice per feeding, then they aren't as healthy as a snake eating rats. If the snake isn't growing like it should, then there's obviously a problem, if it's an owner feeding their snake solely mice (and not enough of them) that would stand out to me as something to change.
citysnakes
12-15-08, 07:19 PM
Unless these people are feeding their snakes easily 10 mice per feeding, then they aren't as healthy as a snake eating rats. If the snake isn't growing like it should, then there's obviously a problem, if it's an owner feeding their snake solely mice (and not enough of them) that would stand out to me as something to change.
i agree that if the snake is underfed, not growing properly and is unhealthy then there is a problem but this can happen no matter what the snake is being fed. like i said, their ball pythons are just as healthy feeding on mice as yours and mine are feeding on rats. the snakes are growing properly, are healthy and are breeding so what is the problem?
Aaron_S
12-15-08, 08:24 PM
Nothing then. I said they'd be fine if they ate enough mice. Most people who feed snakes only mice usually feed way less of them.
siz, if you want to switch to rats then now would be just as good a time as any other.
Thanks :)
Out of curiousity, what are some other advantages of feeding rats besides the nutritional value?
Chu'Wuti
12-16-08, 11:02 AM
This nutritional value difference is driving me crazy. My DH suggests it's because if one has to feed several mice, the surface area (hair area) that contains fewer nutrients is much larger compared to the high value interior, while with a single rat, the surface area of lower nutritional value is less compared to the interior/high nutritional value portion. I guess that makes sense.
OK. Guess I'd better try again to get my BP to switch. I just need to find some smaller, tenderer rats . . .
Aaron_S
12-16-08, 02:44 PM
I'll try here Siz.
Feeding rats is just better.
citysnakes
12-16-08, 04:19 PM
Feeding rats is just better.
why?:confused:
Aaron_S
12-16-08, 04:47 PM
Has the whole nutritional value not been mentioned?
Other than that (which SHOULD be the #1 concern regarding your pet) it's largely a convenience thing. It's easier to feed one rat than 10 mice. Or as added, cost effective. 5 adult mice will on average, cost more than a single rat. Besides I much rather feed my adult male a nice sized rat every 14 days then feed him 20 mice every 14 days.
citysnakes
12-16-08, 06:02 PM
Has the whole nutritional value not been mentioned?
yes, those two words have been mentioned but no, the specific nutritional values of mice and rats have not been mentioned at all. we also dont know what a ball python's exact nutritional requirements really are. so saying "this is better than that" or "its more convenient to do this" arent opinions that im just going to jump on.
whatever, i feed my balls rats anyways and like the convenience of feeding one appropriately sized meal per week. it works for me and my animals and many other keepers as well but other methods, that we many find inconvenient, work for many others and their animals.
Aaron_S
12-16-08, 09:02 PM
So wait, you're not going to 'jump on' the opinion that it's more convient to feed a single prey time but you admit that that's why you like to do it? So you agree then.
I do not have a chart to compare the two. Snakes grown on mice vs. rats in my own experience tend to be slower growing. (Not including snakes that only get large enough to eat mice) I have no factual data to back that up, it is merely opinion from my own observations.
I tend to find that some people use a more "inconvient" method to feed their animals when they only have a couple of them. They usually use a specific method because they have the time to devote to it. For example some people remove their snakes from their "normal" enclosure and feed them in a seperate enclosure. People who keep more than say a dozen snakes, normally leave them in the "normal" enclosure. It's just a whole lot easier.
citysnakes
12-16-08, 10:24 PM
sure, if thats what you want to believe but thats not what i said.
this thread is has gone way off topic and a new one should be started if this is to be discussed further. have your own opinions and do whatever works for you and you animals. thats all i gotta say.
:)
Chu'Wuti
12-17-08, 07:35 AM
I'll try here Siz.
Feeding rats is just better.
Has the whole nutritional value not been mentioned?
Yes, it has been mentioned, and the first answer is . . . ahem . . . a cop-out. :rolleyes:
Come on, guys--I'm trying to learn something here. Feeding rats is better. Why? Because they are more nutritious. OK. I'll bite and ask the question that to you has an obvious answer--Why are rats more nutritious than mice? They are both small rodents, fairly closely related . . . what about rats makes them more nutritious than mice?
I tried to speculate as to a possible reason why earlier when talking about surface area of less nutritional value (hair versus meat). But I don't really know that that's the reason--and I'd really like to know the reason.
I'm willing to take your word that rats are better, and I've ordered rat pinkies to see if that'll help my BP make the switch, as he apparently wasn't happy with rat pups, I think--oops, that's anthromorphizing--he refused to eat rat pups over the past month.
Simply put, I'm genuinely curious about the "why" rats are more nutritious!
Simply put, I'm genuinely curious about the "why" rats are more nutritious!
Exactly my question Chu'Wuti
Chu'Wuti
12-17-08, 11:01 AM
OK, I just did some research on this. The most recent article I was able to find (real research article) is published here:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf
Unfortunately, that article was published in 2002, and it doesn't address pythons' nutritional requirements. I was unable to find any articles in the Web of Science database (accessed through my university) providing info regarding pythons' nutritional needs.
While the article by Dierenfeld, Alcorn, & Jacobsen (2002; link above) gives info about the gross energy content of rats & mice along with mineral content available, there is a lot of variability depending upon whether the mouse/rat is a neonate, a juvie, or an adult. If we go solely by energy content, a neonatal rat provides more than a neonatal mouse, and the same is true for the adult rat compared to the adult mouse. However, a juvenile rat has a LOWER energy content than a juvenile mouse.
Further, pythons' mineral needs might be quite important in relation to what mice & rats provide. For example, an adult mouse provide more calcium, more phosphorus, more magnesium, more copper, more zinc, and more manganese than an adult rat, but less iron. Even some of these conclusions are questionable, as the sample sizes were (except for adult rats/mice) too small for the conclusions to be reliable (measuring the nutritional composition of 5 neonates does not establish that all neonates of that species provide that nutrient at the level seen in the five!). Finally, the nutritional value of both mice and rats depends upon the quality of their feed!
Without knowing pythons' actual nutritional requirements for each mineral, it's impossible to say whether more of any particular mineral is better or less is better. For example, more iron could be better for some predators, but bad for others if the are susceptibel to iron-storage disease as mentioned on p. 5 of this article.
In addition, the authors explain, "Protein and essential amino acid requirements of zoo carnivores have not been determined" (p. 3). The authors also note that "laboratory-reared rodents contain more body fat and less body protein than sampled free-ranging rodents of the same species" (p. 4; I think that would also apply to domestically reared animals). On p. 6, they add that there is no info on fatty acid concentrations, vitamins D & K, or water-soluble vitamins.
I was unable to find any more recent research, and none at all on pythons' nutritional requirements. It seems that even for zoo animals, the assumption is that if they grow and don't die, whatever they're being fed is OK.
My conclusion? We need more info! I'm even more frustrated now than I was. Somebody needs to do more research.
Here is the most comprehensive compilation of prey food item and their nutritional breakdown I have ever seen. Read the raw data and draw your own conclusions:
RodentPro.com - Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)
Aaron_S
12-17-08, 01:58 PM
Thank you Mykee. That link should answer all further questions to why it's better to feed rats over mice.
No worries Aaron. The above link will answer all.
citysnakes
12-17-08, 04:32 PM
Chu and Mike, great links guys thanks for posting them.
haha but you guys kill me. actually the above links, although very informative and helpful, do not answer "all".
Aaron_S
12-17-08, 05:21 PM
What more do you want?
I took a look only at Mykee's link. I compared an adult mouse to a juvenile rat. I chose these two because we originally started talking about a ball python switching. Which if the snake is eating mice it would at 10g or greater weight, just the same as a juvenile rat.
Except the dry matter, everything else was higher. How does this not answer "all" final inquiries to the "debate"? I explained the convience factor and now we have proof of the nutritional value, which was the follow-up question after I made my remarks regarding convience.
What further questions do you have Julian?
What else do you feel you need to know to make an educated choice Adrian?
All the information you could possibly want is right in front of you in black and white.
Proof? I'll give you some first hand knowledge from my personal experiences:
When I first started out, and didn't know not to buy mice-eating adults, I purchased a group of four related sub-adult female balls; two mouse-eaters and two rat eaters (almost sounds like the perfect set-up, doesn't it?)
I tried and tried to get the two mouse eaters onto rats, to no avail. After two full years of messing with these picky bitches, I sold them. They all ate weekly of roughly 100g meals (I liked to keep my meal sizes small even back then); 4 adult mice for the mouse-eaters, and one medium rat each for the rat eaters.)
After two years of my owning them (they were all three-ish at the time), eating the same sized meals at the same intervals, the two mouse eaters were both under 1200g and the two rat eaters were both well over 2000g.
I realize that four animals does not a theory prove, but it said enough to me that I've never owned a mouse-eater since.
citysnakes
12-17-08, 05:54 PM
Aaron, i have no questions for you and if you feel that after reading that you know everything there is to know then good for you. i dont feel that way and im not here to teach you what questions to ask and what too look for and why. like i said im finished trying to discuss this. think what you want, know that rats are "better" and youre golden.
Mike thanks letting us in a little on your experiences, good info.
Chu'Wuti
12-17-08, 10:29 PM
Here is the most comprehensive compilation of prey food item and their nutritional breakdown I have ever seen. Read the raw data and draw your own conclusions:
RodentPro.com - Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey
The tables presented at RodentPro.com come directly from the published article at http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf (the link I posted earlier). If anyone had bothered to look at both links, they would have instantly seen that I had already posted a link to those tables in their original context.
It's very helpful to read the authors' text in conjunction with the tables--the excerpts I quoted earlier give some idea of why the tables are incompletely helpful.
To be explicit, more is NOT necessarily better.
Just because the tables say one particular rat contains more energy and more iron than one particular mouse does NOT mean that it is best for the snake. What we need is the information about the snake's nutritional needs. What if the snake needs more of the minerals the rat has less of? We don't know--that article, including the tables extracted from it by RodentPro.com, does not say what the snake needs. Faster growth may mean a snake got more fat (and hence more energy) but it does NOT mean the snake is healthier. We can make humans grow faster and bigger, too, by changing our diet--but it is not healthy.
I stand by my earlier post. This is something that needs further research.
and you sound like just the person to do that research. Good luck with that........
Chu'Wuti
12-18-08, 09:16 AM
you sound like just the person to do that research
Thanks (I think)---I'll take that as a compliment. However, as much as I love my animals, I'm not a herpetologist. I'm just a doctoral student in an entirely different field who has learned how to find research literature, read it for the important information, and evaluate it--it's part of my job.
I have no intent of offending anyone, and I am working to switch my BP to rats. I'm just saying we shouldn't jump on the rat bandwagon too strongly because we don't have all the info we need on this subject. Future research may reveal that a different diet is even better.
At this point, though, we're all doing the best we can--you, Aaron, Julian, etc. all care about your snakes just as I do, and we all are taking care of them in a way that seems to be optimal with the info we have. Seeing your snakes grow faster certainly appears to support the idea that rats are better, and their growth rate supports the research showing that rats provide more energy. :yes:
Now you can all say--look what Chu'Wuti's curiosity got us into! No more curiosity! :rolleyes:
"I have no intent of offending anyone, and I am working to switch my BP to rats. I'm just saying we shouldn't jump on the rat bandwagon too strongly because we don't have all the info we need on this subject. "
Bandwagon? Seriously?.. you make it sound like feeding rats to ball pythons is a fad that has taken hold in the last few years. I understand your desire to find out what food is best for a ball python, but unless you are willing to go to western Africa and catch some gerboas, you're SOL...
Rats: The new fad.
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 10:20 AM
We could most likely switch our ball pythons to dwarf bunnies. How about guinea pigs?
It's a good thing that someone is looking into what our animals "need" but as I said it's also a convience. It's easy to raise rats, it's easy to feed them and the snakes take them like no tomorrow. Why ruin a good thing?
As well as being "easy" Aaron, there is also the fact that ball pythons maintain a healthy weight eating "just rats", they breed when sexually mature eating "just rats", they have solid and regular stool eating "just rats", they have enough fat storage to breed successfully eating "just rats" and they live long lives eating "just rats".
"Just rats" sounds like a perfect food item for ball pythons, non?
Chu'Wuti
12-18-08, 10:42 AM
you make it sound like feeding rats to ball pythons is a fad that has taken hold in the last few years
Gosh, I sure didn't mean it to come across that way! I'm so sorry. :sorry:
I recognize the value of convenience for feeding our snakes, and I'm not trying to diminish its importance. Remember I said way back up the line in this thread that I'm curious?
I simply want to learn more. I enjoy learning :nerd: and after having a mother whose favorite answer to my questions was a frustrating, "Because I said so, that's why!" or "Because it's better that way, and don't ask any more questions!", I'm pretty rebellious when it comes to finding out more. I tried never to do that to my kids because I hated it so much myself. Maybe there are no definitive answers--I've certainly found that to be true over and over, and maybe the best solutions--like feeding rats--rest as much on convenience as on science. Doesn't mean I won't want to know more.
After all, why do you think I joined this forum? I've got books, I've read multiple care sheets--I just want to know more.
Sorry to be such a source of frustration for you. :crazy2: Just think of me as the little kid who's always asking, "Why? But why?"
Don't get me wrong, I understand completely where you are coming from, and I think we got carried away with your initial post on this topic and just kept going on our own fuel. I am a big fan of the "yeah, but why" way of thinking as well, and I tend to research topics to no end as well. The fact remains though that this topic specifically can't be tied up in a neat little bow because even though we know the nutritional breakdons of every food source available to man, we don't know the optimal nutritional requirements of a ball pythons. I do know that rats have become the accepted food item for ball pythons not because they're easy but because they work.
So, on this topic, a line from Tommy Boy starring the late, great Chris Farley:
"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$$, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."
Chu'Wuti
12-18-08, 11:09 AM
I am a big fan of the "yeah, but why" way of thinking as well, and I tend to research topics to no end as well.
Whew! I'm relieved to hear I'm not alone! ;-)
The fact remains though that this topic specifically can't be tied up in a neat little bow because even though we know the nutritional breakdons of every food source available to man, we don't know the optimal nutritional requirements of a ball pythons. I do know that rats have become the accepted food item for ball pythons not because they're easy but because they work.
Yes, I began to see that (we can't tie it up in a neat bow) as I was searching for lit on this topic. In some ways, I ended up more frustrated because here we are relying on a 6-year old meta-analysis that is based on research of the nutrient analyses of mice and rats from as long ago as 1976! and some of it with very small sample sizes that would preclude any truly valid conclusions. Analytical techniques have improved enormously since 1976 and even since 1996. It became very clear that more research is needed, and especially that someone should find out what our pythons actually need.
I recognize that they grow, appear healthy, reproduce, etc. on a pure rat diet, and I'm not disparaging that, guys, truly! But I'd like to know if they need more copper or zinc or iron or less to be healthy down to the molecular level.
Just remember, I'm a :nerd: !!
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 02:41 PM
You get to Africa and do some field research on that for us :D
Although there's ONE good way to figure out how much your snake is getting. Breed your own and feed them what YOU want to feed them. Then you know what is going into your snakes. Sadly, it's not viable for all of us to do this so for those of us who can't we just need to be sure where we buy our feeders from. Even then it might be difficult because how do you truely know what is in the food you feed the rats? Maybe then we need a 'rodent garden'. Hmm, I may have to take up a part of the garden next year :D
Aaron; I breed my own rats because of that very reason. I've been producing rats for over 7 years to feed to my collection. I feed only the highest quality lab food and keep them immaculately clean so that I can monitor and maintain the highest quality of rodents.
However, due to my colonies being so established, I have no desire whatsoever to branch out and breed ASF's, gerboas, or any other "alternative" food source for my snakes.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 03:29 PM
I truely don't know anything about these ASF's. If I had the room I would start up a rat colony. Especially with the woody pet substrate.Seems to be a blessing.
What are Gerboa's?
Jerboas are the ACTUAL food item that ball pythons are said to eat IN Africa:
Jerboa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerboa)
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 04:21 PM
Has anyone cultivated them for ball python cunsumption? Are they related to gerbils?
Chu'Wuti
12-18-08, 05:08 PM
Do they only eat jerboas? Or do they eat other things, too? Hmmm . . . more research. Ack.
Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, meaning they will spend ALL of their waking hours in the wild hunting or hiding out waiting for food. They will eat as much as they can because they do not know when their next meal will be. Because I have not followed around stalking or hunting ball pythons in Africa, I cannot provide you with an educated answer on all of the different food items they eat.
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 05:32 PM
Well hop on a plane and get to it! While you are there, want to send me some "new morphs" to "flip" ;)
Aren't most boids,and snakes, opportunistic? Or am I just generalizing way too much. I believe it's more with boids than other snakes.
Chu'Wuti
12-18-08, 07:26 PM
Because I have not followed around stalking or hunting ball pythons in Africa, I cannot provide you with an educated answer on all of the different food items they eat.
Well hop on a plane and get to it!
and previously You get to Africa and do some field research on that for us
Boy, Aaron, you're going to have half of us taking off for Africa at this rate! Why don't we just get up a group snake safari while we're at it? ;-)
Aaron_S
12-18-08, 07:57 PM
I call all the black mambas!
Chu'Wuti
12-19-08, 08:38 AM
Hah! You would! :)
I've been away for a couple days, I realzize this thread is even more off topic than when I last posted, just wanted to say thanks for all the info and entertainment, haha.
Aaron_S
12-19-08, 07:14 PM
We do our best ;)
Chu'Wuti
12-20-08, 10:52 AM
I realzize this thread is even more off topic than when I last posted
"Off" topic? I prefer to say the topic has evolved, thank you! (nose in air, very snooty!)
thanks for all the info and entertainment, haha. We're so glad you appreciate us! ;-)
oops, REALIZE*
"Off" topic? I prefer to say the topic has evolved, thank you!
It certainly has!
Chu'Wuti
12-20-08, 11:16 AM
:yes: Ain't it fun?! (the grammar is tongue-in-cheek here, guys, so don't jump on me too hard! I actually teach English as a second language . . .)
Hahahaha.
I'm not usually a forum type of gal but I can't stay away from this one! So many clashes of opinion make for good entertainment!
Aaron_S
12-20-08, 12:56 PM
I don't want you to leave us because we always need more members that are willing to post to get somewhere but there are faaar more entertaining threads and posts to be had on the interwebs.
Chu'Wuti
12-21-08, 10:52 AM
there are faaar more entertaining threads and posts to be had on the interwebs.
1) What is an interweb?
2) Ack! We've been dissed for being boring!
Aaron_S
12-21-08, 08:58 PM
I suppose I dissed myself then?
Just a slang term for "the internet". Also referred to as "intrawebz" or any variation of.
Chu'Wuti
12-22-08, 11:04 AM
I suppose I dissed myself then?
If the shoe fits . . . don't throw it! ;-)
The last few nights we have had to keep the red lights on just to maintain 80 deg. We've never had this problem before, but then, we've never had a python before. It is unusually cold for this time of year for us in South Central U.S. It got down to 12 deg. F last night, even lower than was predicted--this is really weird for us! I'm wondering if I should wrap the BP's enclosure in a blanket . . .
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