Hate to beat a dead horse....or do I?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ages ago we had a discussion and it evolved into whether or not prices affect how animals are treated (sorry Paul, my fault. LOL!!). I didn't like the idea of inexpensive imports or even CB animals as I thought it would create a "disposable" market. Of course other disagreed. Anywho, here's a post from a reputed breeder that seen many sides of the hobby for probably 30 years! It was posted on another forum, but it gives a different perspective on our previous discussion. I'm not re-opening this debate to pi$$ anyone off, I'm just trying to start intelligent, progressive discussion (which is what this site should be all about!!). Its about cheapo water monitors that are imported in great numbers to people who really shouldn't be keeping any reptiles, let alone a water monitor!!

Thanks to all who participate! :D

Posted by FR on Thu - Dec 19 - 10:14am:


Here is more to think about.
In most cases, as Daniel says, its an animal wellfare issure, rather then a conservation issure.

Heres some thoughts on that, first, the commonly imported monitors, are the monitor sold to the newest of keepers, beginers. They are sold to them because of price. The common ones are the cheapest ones. The real problem is, they are not necessarily the best for beginers, with waters being the very worse. To offer a monitor that can easily gets 6 feet and can reach 8 feet or more, is definately not for the first timer. Also, add to that, they are water monitors, that really complicates keeping them. In fact, all the commonly imported monitors are not good canidates for beginers. All have various problems, from size to parasites and other sicknesses.

Mangroves(indicus group) fit into this group as well. They are not nearly so nasty as Daniel thinks, but again, not for beginers. They are very agressive feeders and have very sharp teeth and at times slice up there cagemates in a feeding frenzy.

Of course, many captive hatched monitors are much better canidates, but they too have their own unquie problems. With these, because they do so well in captivity, have lots of reproductive problems, that don't occur with the wild caughts, those simple do not readily breed(so no problems there).

I believe if the price and availibily was equal, there would indeed be different choices made.

Neither here nor there, I was told that the reason some monitors are more availible, like mangroves was. They are hunted with dogs and normally go down holes or into water. While many of the other indo monitors are just as common, but they run up trees and are harder to catch. Those need to be trapped.

More neither here or there, I once worked at a reptile park and large anacondas almost never fed. After a few died, I prepared there skeletons, in doing so, I found their skulls had bird shot in them. They collected them with a shotgun, hmmmmmmmmmm no wonder they did not feed. F

[Matt]

jeff, i didnt see the original thread, but from reading what you said, i fully agree with you. Unfortunately, i think price affects what people buy all too much.
IMO, it IS creating a disposible market, becasue too many people think that they can either just get another one if it dies, or just take the loss 'cause it didnt cost too much.

Furthermore, and this may be off topic a bit, and i know that price is regulated by supply and demand, but it makes me feel uncomfortable that one can buy a WC black mamba for like $250.
people that have no hot experience and want to keep the worlds "deadliest land snake" can get them so readily and they will becasuse they dont cost too too much....and this of course leads to more animal abuse and maybe some dead keepers.

anyways thats just my opinion

[Tim_Cranwill]

What about this for an idea...

If, for example, the black mamba shouldn't cost $250, how much SHOULD it cost? $1000? And how much SHOULD a normal corn cost? $200?

If all the breeders out there decided to sell their cb animals for more, wouldn't that just encourage poachers to capture MORE animals because of the higher profit they can snag? I think this mentality would carry over to any regularly wild caught species.

The prices have likely settled to an amount people are willing to pay given each species' availability, aka supply and demand. The low price of certain species likely contributes to their popularity. For example; if a newbie liked both the Honduran Milksnake and Normal Cornsnakes equally, which do you think he'd choose as his first snake, one that costs $30 or $175? And that's partly why some of these cheaper species are so popular, especially with beginners.

Now, I agree with the "Disposable pet" syndrome, but what can actually be done to change it? Would anybody pay $300 for a leopard gecko or $200 for a normal cornsnake when they could get one for far less?


*Note: All the figures used are just for argument's sake:)

[Pontus]

you got some great points there but i think that aslong a they arenot to cheep and kept around like 100 people arnt so redily going to think of them as disposable. but when there are corns and savannah monitors sold for like $20 or less that is to low and then people dont care because the the food and enclosure will eventualy cost a lot more then the animal and people will start to think why they ever got it and start mistreating it. i dont think that it is possible to stop the disposable pet idea the only way is for pet shop to tell the possible new owner what they are relly getting into and not just try and make a sale.(saw 2 bad examples yesterday as i was buying mice.)

thats just my $.02

[reverendsterlin]

I think the iguana market is a good example of this, I have seen many owners of 6"-1 1/2' iguanas over the years, probably 1000's, but I almost never come across the owners of 4'+ iguanas. The only conclusion I reach is that these 1000's of iguanas are mostly casualties of the capitalist market and wind up dead and that this killing of animals extends to most non-interactve animals.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Cranwill: Prices have NOT settled to what people are willing to pay. I have friends that paid over $600 for their Jungles when they first came into Canada. Would you pay that now? Probably not. Why is that? Because there are so many people breeding them, no one can sustain a high price like that anymore. Prices have settled due to competition, not because the buyers have dictated how much they want to pay.

Matt: $250 for a mamba? Yikes! Sometims this industry sucks man. :confused:

[Tim_Cranwill]

That's where the supply part of supply and demand comes in. I meant to convey that in my post but I guess it didn't come through.:)

[sSNAKESs.com]

Well on the captive bred / WC thing.. it looks like this year, WC and CH bp's have been available at the shows here for in and around 50$, and the prices of ball pythons has went up for $200 - $225 for females and $150.00+ for males, but the breeders still dont have a problem moving the CB stuff :) I know myself, that i am so scared to buy a adult imported boa for a chance of introducing something to my snake room that i just wont do it.. Plus i hate to admit it but i am not a big fan of having to quarentine for 6 months to a year, i only quarentine for a few weeks to be sure of mites and solid stoool and any other funny behaviour so personally WC really doesnt appeal to me, its better to pay a higher price IF it is available in Canada already. Thats my 0.2.

[eyespy]

I think that unfortuanately price contributes greatly to the number of impulse purchases and that's the worst scenario for abuse and disposable pets.

I'm not sure what the best solution to this problem is, but sometimes I feel that herps should be sold through breeders only, who can teach better husbandry and handling skills than most pet stores, particularly the big chains. In order for a store to be allowed to sell herps, employees should be able to demonstrate good teaching skills and a decent general knowledge of reptile husbandry. Yet when laws against herps are passed, it seems like breeders and keepers are hardest hit and the stores are the last to suffer. Ironic.

[Lisa]

Part of it is edjucation. part of it is some people don't care what they are selling as long as they make $.

[reverendsterlin]

er, lots of breeders (not necessarily good ones), sell their offspring to these stores, however competition with imports can make the business into sell as quick as possible. I understand, I traded earlier this year and one of my hatchlngs died after the person got it. They wanted another snake, which I agreed to, yet here several months later I've invested several $ into food I still have the snake to support. If the guy asks he'll get it free, but from a trade deal for neos to spending bucks feeding it I don't think I should be expected to give over a snake without compensation. Chain stores give the cash up to the dealers, whether importers or breeders, so it really does depend on the market. Will individuals buy EVERY hatchling I produce this year? Should I be required to spend the cash to feed those that don't, without raising prices(everyone complains)? If not a broker or a chain may get them.

[rattekonigin]

To take this on a bit of a tangent...reptiles are not anywhere near being the hardest hit by the "disposable pet syndrome"...consider small rodents which usually retail for under 10$ and are THE pet to get for children to teach them "responsibility"... then this kid forgets to feed and water it and mishandles it...and at best, the animal is housed in a cage that's too small and doesn't have cagemates (should it be a social species) and has to put up with infrequent harrassment, but at worst, the animal gets to sit in it's own filth and starve to death...or is actually injured purposefully (there really are some sick, sadistic kids out there)

I've seen this stuff first hand and, to me, this kind of mistreatment is all the worse when applied to mammals because of the fact that many are very intelligent and operate at higher sensory levels than reptiles (with regards to pain perception, etc). In the case of rats, they have an equivalent intelligence to dogs...and I'm not even getting into how people treat fish...
So, what I'm saying is, you can complain about cheap reptiles being considered "disposable" because they go for 20$-30$ (which, might I add, they do NOT go for in most pet stores where the markup is ridiculous)...but then you have a 5 dollar hamster, that's going to suffer much more when it's mistreated and is going to be mistreated 10 times more often, not only because of the fact that it's cheap, but also because it's a more popular pet...

I'm not trying to justify mistreatment of reptiles at all, I'm just saying this is something else to consider...another thing to consider is, should people be "buying and selling" animals at all? In the case of hobbyist breeders, selling offspring to cover costs is probably more ethical than your big chain pet stores which buy the cheapest animals they can get, mark them up 300%, make a huge profit, and people buy the animals on impulse. I personally think they need to make some laws governing what pet stores are allowed to sell, this might put an end to puppy/kitty mills and WC reptiles being sold retail. (I'm not against keeping WC animals, provided they aren't being depleted in their natural habitat for the sake of the pet trade, but pet stores shouldn't be selling them)
Theoretically, one would think breeders are more likely to sell their animals to someone who is fully prepared to take on the responsibility and knows how to go about it...but I wonder how many reptile breeders actually know if their animals go to "good" homes...

Wow, I babbled on a lot more than I meant to... :P
But I am interested to hear people's opinions regarding this stuff...

[Nanashi04]

This hits home.

Being an unemployed 16-year-old, I'm a big penny pusher. My parents are divorced, so it's just my dad supporting the two of us. I am not however, going to go out and get something I can't handle just because it's cheep - I know my limits. Before I think about getting something be it an animal, instrument, craft item, whatever - I look into it and make sure I'll be able to handle it.

I mean, I knew that selling reptiles to just anyone can be bad. I knew a girl with a ball python - it wasn't full grown, but it was way to big for it's 5 gallon tank and hidey hole that my garter would have enjoyed... no heating worth mentioning. Her uncle took it away - it's doing much better now, don't worry. ;)


Yet animal abuse is going to happen no matter what the prices are - people will save up ( I know this story..) to have these animals. Raising the prices would be an insult to people who don't make as much, but are still good keepers. I mean, come on, you can get a cat or dog for free almost anytime of year - and they'll be mistreated the same way. I think the best way to solve abuse would be Education - starting a a young age, people seem to have more respect for things they can understand.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Eyespy: great post! I fully agree! :D

[V.aw]

I dont understand the hype of ball pythons lately. I purchased a CB ball for 100$ last year, and now they go for 200+ sometimes for normal females. I think too many people want to hop on the Corey Woods bandwagon. They pay big bucks so they can dream of producing some nice animals, when it takes alot more work than they think it does.

[V.aw]

I Dont agree with eyespy completely If there were regulations on what the breeder could charge its different. If that happened the reptile cost would be insane. Take ackies for example. You can get another species, say a savannah for 65$ at most stores, or you can pay a breeder 4-600$ for a baby ackie. A baby they produced over 10 of in one clutch in most cases. I dont see how the value of 10 ackies is 6 grand. Thats greed IMO. (these are also dwarf species that most breeders try to stress new comers to purchase, because they're so easy to care for, and they are! but what newcomer is going to be encouraged by a 600$ price tag. Not many.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ever hatched an ackie egg? Some guys are lucky if they get 50% hatch rates. And if you want cheaper animals, then breed them and produce them for everyone to enjoy. There's a reason some things are expensive, and that's because not everyone can breed. If they could, I'd be out of business fast.

[paul_le_snake]

very emotive subject, but it was something i had been pondering about posting myself (nice work jeff!) to start with the wild caught debate; in my opinion, there is no reason for any reptile to be taken from its natural habitat, and dumped into a petstore. wc does have a need, for several years madagascan boias have seen a dreadful decline in clean bloodlines. so in the case of certain species that need to be captive bred for the species continued survival then there can be no other alternative than to introduce fresh bloodlines into a designated captive breeding program.
got loads more to write, but i'm well battered. long afternnon at the bar!
cheers
paul

[rattekonigin]

I would like to say this: it seems to me that this whole hobby is primarily driven by ego and the all mighty dollar...the "who produced what first" and the constant b!tching and people jumping down other people's throats is really ridiculous. Guess what? Nobody cares who produced the first magical purple whatsamagidget! It's not like their giving out nobel prizes for this *****, guys...and I'm even skeptical of people who claim to be in the hobby because of the animals when they own 500+ BPs or whatever, how can you possibly appreciate the animals when you're producing them "en masse"?

Here's my blurb on BPs: for everyone jumping on the ballpython morph bandwagon, in a few years those expensive morphs will be going for what normals are going for now, mark my words because time will tell...it may take 10 years, it may take 20, but it will happen...people say that the market won't go down because of small clutch size, etc...etc...well their clutch size isn't a whole lot smaller than corns and there are a hell of a lot of people breeding them...they'll go the way of the corn snake...oh, yes...they will...
Also, what bothers me is how everyone claims to have an unproven "morph"...explain to me how a BP can be anerythristic when the have no red pigment! Tell me, because I am confused...

[Tim_Cranwill]

Just because there is no cherry red flashing in your eyes, that doesn't mean there's no red pigment. Have you ever painted before? How do YOU suppose the color brown is made?

That's what I thought;)

And my hobby isn't driven by my ego. I decided to try breeding because I wanted so many different types of snakes and this was the one way I could have and enjoy them without going broke:)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I won't even touch the BP thing.

Here's another thread by the same guy on the thought of wild-caughts again. This is why I hate WC animals. It takes no skill to obtain one, and it does no service for the hobby.

Its the last paragraph that hits the home run. These people know what they are talking about.

Posted by FR on Wed - Dec 18 - 9:04pm:
Posted by FR on Wed - Dec 18 - 9:04pm:

In Reply to: A ? for Mampam and others posted by Dragoon on Wed - Dec 18 - 5:31pm:

You sure do think alot. You think, and I feed, hahahahahahahaha
First, Daniel has his opinions based on what he sees. Not what you or I see. He is a field biologist not a keeper. Hes a writer as well, and a good one.

If you were to tour the exporters facilities, the importers as well, you may think the same. Some will turn your stomach, not all mind you.

As far as in nature, Most areas are perfectly fine for the monitors to exsist. There are millions of populations that are prefectly healthy. But again some are not. The future for monitors is good, but not for all species.

About what species get imported, its based on many things. Mainly ease of collection. Monitors that can be collected easily, can be sold cheap and if they are sold cheap, they provide a steady income. Monitors that are harder to come by, cost more and therefore are sold in less numbers.

I have to tell you, its not demand for a species that predicts what is imported, its price and price only.

The monitors that are found in large numbers are usually found in disturbed areas where their populations are abnormally high. but i wander.

Daniel sees monitors in nature, once you have done that, its very hard to see them in boxes, its very hard to hear people taking about putting them on cypress crap, or bedadog crap. It will tear your heart out. You see this reptile thats king of his turf, then see people going out of there way to take all thats natural away and turn them into a lap animal, that is a sin to the world in some peoples mind. You know, those people are not entirely wrong.

Sorry i can't remember your other questions. F

[paul_le_snake]

i know for sure that 100 000 ball pythons were exported from africa in 2000. how can this be sustainable to the wild population???? the fact that dealers will sell 'ranched' balls for as little as $1.50 ea (when brought in lots of 1000) it demeans the life of the snake. the importer would expect that 50 - 65% will die, either en route, or within in the time it takes them to ship them out to other ditributors. all of these deaths are worked into the next selling price.
so much more to say, but so little energy
cheers
paul

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm not sure I understand this statement?

"...explain to me how a BP can be anerythristic when the have no red pigment! Tell me, because I am confused...

Anerythristic IS the absence of red pigment. The absence of erythrins. Now I'm confused. Big time.

[rattekonigin]

Yes, but then how is an "anerythristic" BP any different from a normal BP? I've seen BPs marketted as "anerythristic" that looked exactly like axanthics, to me...so maybe it's confusion with the terminology on the breeder's part...but I've seen "axanthics" for sale from the same breeders, as well...so, if an albino BP has no trace of red pigment, then it's pretty safe to say BPs in general have very little, if any...so, I want to know how someone can claim that a BP is "anerythristic" (ie. lacking red pigment) when it never had any to begin with.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The difference can be seen in the pictures.


http://www.newenglandreptile.com/BallPythonPics/AnerBallNiceBallBodySHot.jpg

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/BallPythonPics/AxanthicBall003.jpg

[lanalizard]

wow, this was a touchy subject and here i would like to add my 0.02$ and dont jump down my throat for a lousy opinion..we are all here to express and be friends.
To me, a ball python is a ball python. Those who pay big $$$ for those 'color morphs' to breed to their normal, breed back to the mother/father, etc..etc...and get babies and sell those, are really wasting their money...eventually the snake is gonna cost 100$ in the long run. Take bearded dragons for example...they were expensive, baby normals were costing what, 199.99$ at one point? and now we find normals for 40$!!!! color morphs are nothing anymore....and the whole iguana issue..i agree totally with that..i own 2 male iguanas and i rescue iguanas..i have 18"svl male iguana who lost his tail due to infection from people i rescued it from who used to throw the iguana against the windows...and ive seen a 7 foot iguana in good health....just because you see them in the stores for 19.99$, doesnt mean you cant respect them. The Anoles and house geckos, i bet 75% of you all think they are puny waste of time lizards, but in fact, they have a life, and they were pulled from their natural habitats to be abused and disrespected by most.
I am blabbing and i may not make sense at times but we all need to sit for a minute and re think this all and respect the animals we know and love.
Even rodents..they have a heart too.

[reverendsterlin]

if I get a genetic line that makes money I'll exploit it, I spend so much on housing, ect. that I have moved to trying to breed high end animals to support my habit lol

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ok, since we've completely abandoned the original thread's discussion (hey Paul, I know what it feels like now!! LOL!), I may as well participate as well.

lanalizard, why do you think Beardeds have dropped in price? Or Leos for that matter? Maybe its because my 5 year-old nephew could breed them? Or maybe because you basically have to shoot them for them not to breed? I don't know how long you've been in the hobby, but do you remember/know when albino Leos came out? It was way back in '93-94 if I remember correctly. Yeah. The debuted at $3,000US each! What are they now? $25US. Now, the albino Ball made its appearance at around the same time. Know how much it went for? $10,000. Know how much they are now? $3,000. Price drop? Yes. But not nearly as much as a Leo. Now why do you think that is?

Ley me illustrate:

If I gave a pair of albino Balls and a pair of albino Leos to my 5 year-old nephew, which do you think he'd breed first? Exactly. How many do you think he'd produce in his first 3 years? Well, I'd be mad at him if he didn't get at least 100 albino Leos, seeing as they mature at 8 months, have 6-8 clutches a year, you can make whatever sex ratio you want!!!!, and they take virtually no space to house 30 adults. How many albino balls do you think he'd produce? I think he'd be lucky not to fry them/kill them/let them escape/feed them poorly, let alone get any successful matings from them.

Point is, the Ball prices aren't going anywhere. I'm not sure why people think that they will be $100 any time soon, but these are usually people who don't even own a Ball Python, let alone ever bred one!

And I'm not jumping down your throat. I'm expressing my opinion as well as you were, only I'm providing a little reference and experience in addition.

[reverendsterlin]

good point Jeff, what many don't understand is that I don't care how many high-end animals I produce, if I droppped prices it affects the whole market. I won't underprice my animals to make a sale, I'll charge full market values always. It's not how CHEAP we make them but how well we MAKE them.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly Rev.! :D

[lanalizard]

sure, and im not saying that ur not right..its just that with time, people will be breeding high end balls, not for the quality but for the cheapness.
With leos, it happened that way..balls might not but we cant totally say that it wont. right?

now to end my part of this discussion..i say "merry christmas to all"

[paul_le_snake]

goodpoint rev, how many ppl would it take to get the prices of...say colombian boas down to $50 ea????? one. it was the same in england a few years ago. too many ppl were breeding boas to supply the "need" so what happened? some ppl started selling thier boas for 20 pounds each. yes they sold them, but what about all the private breeders and decent petshops that have to sell an animal to make a living. i'm not trying to demean the value of any animals life, whether it be $1 or $100 000, it's still a living animal that can feel pain and hunger and so many more things that we can't even find.
on that point it makes me sick to think that a beautiful iguana can be sold for as little as $20 when only a month ago it was living in the real jungle. the jungle it was meant for, not this urban society jungle that some ppl seem intent on making.
cheers
paul
i hear ya jeff!

[Jeff_Favelle]

EXCELLENT post Paul! I KNEW we thought alike, ha ha.

But yeah, it is very sad when an animal's intrinsic value far outweighs its monetary value (even though an animal's intrinsic value is always undervalued!!!). Corns, Beardies, Leos, Bci's, Cal Kings, etc etc etc. It sucks. I wish they weren't so easy to breed and then we'd lose a TON of the fringe breeders (the ones not willing to take the next step). Then less animals would suffer, prices would stay about a reasonable amount etc etc. I don't know man. I think about it every day. There are no simple solutions because without lower-end animals, we eliminate a plethora of new keepers. And that's not fair to them. Or is it? I mean, why should someone have the "right" to keep another thing in captivity? But that's a whole other story eh? Ha ha!


The one bright side to the mass production of cheapie animals is that we've certainly come a long way in our husbandry techniques and knowledge. A LONG way. And that's a good thing.

[paul_le_snake]

once again i agree with u jeff, in some way it would be nice if some of the fringe keepers would be put off, unfortunatly tht aint gonna happen. another thing that doesnt help is the stigma of keeping reptiles. u see alot of first time buyers wanting that big python, big boa monitor iggy etc. as most just for the shock factor.
i'm always happy to answer a question, but sometimes it gets frustrating because the answer is usually readily available in a cheap book. nowadays thx to the internet anyone can post some garbage saying that their way is the right way.
going back to an earlier post someone mentioned the idea of policiing certain shops and breeder ( i think thats what it said!) great idea, but who will do it? spca is already overun with too many animals,and not enough staff, let alone finding someone who knows enough about reptiles to give any authority.
ok better go, wife wants a cuddle (went snowboarding and feel very rough!!!! well it was my first time!!)
woo hoo, americas most wanted is on...................."This man is wanted for reptile abuse.....Yeah right!?!?!?!?!?!
cheers
paul

[Dom]

man oh man i missed on interesting thread .. my thoughs are as simple as this..

Unfortunetly, an animal only has as much value as U wish to pay for it.. Its all about suply and demand.. as much as one has as much right to live as the other, if it breeds easily or can be imported in mass number for cheap .. then the animal is gonna be worth only pennies.. Unfair to the animal - defenetly .. unfair to the breeders defently .. unfair to the buyers .. depends on your opinion.


Dom

[paul_le_snake]

bugger..i wrote a whole reply. and then pressed one wrong button and everything pissed off?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?
DAMN
no cheers as before too mad
paul.
DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dom, that is the sad reality. All we can do is our best and not support the pipelines that deal with that kind of stuff. Its a moral/ethical issue and some people just don't care. You think I breed snakes for money? BWHAaaaaaa haaaaaa!!! As if! I can think of a bazillion different ventures that are far more lucrative. I breed them because I like it, it does the planet good (in my disillusioned mind) and I don't like seeing the animals that I grew up so fascinated with, treated like inert commodities with little thought to their well being. I know you feel the same way too Dom. Its tough eh?

Paul, man, you're posts just keep getting better and better man. I can't believe we argued so much before on that other thread. We think soo much alike its not even funny!

Good stuff guys. Glad to have the opportunity to chat with gentlemen like yourselves.

:D

[paul_le_snake]

lol jeff, i guess we're both passionate about the same thing!
true what u said about not making money from breeding snakes, although the way i look at it, is that i do something i love, and if i make a bit of cash from doingso, then all the better, but i'm a long way from making money and i still love it!!!!
interesting point could be though, all these snakes on ppls wish list...y r they so expensive? y does no-one dream of a corn snake???? is it because ppl look down upon them as a lowly snake? if they do they have to remember that without them snake keeping / breeding would not be where it is today. maybe not look down, but u know what i mean..don't ya?
cheers
paul
ps at least all corns are cbb! happy new year i'm off for a quiet drink, followed by 20 loud ones!

[krrc]

Though I may be wrong or most likely I am but this is my opinion anyways: the ball python thing is what really sticks out in my mind and my thoughts are simple that if someone pays that $15,000 dollars for a piebald or 2 or 3 or 10 to use for their breeding program or if they spend 5 or ten years with a 50% het they bought for whatever they go for and worked there way up I dont think anyone will let a snake that they can get so much out of (price wise) go for less than its worth thus the market value of this morph or any really wont fall. I hate to make that sound so money orented but really it is. also an animal you payed more for you will take care of better or you will pay more to take care of better iven if you dont think that you think that way I found myself today (I'm not like this. I'm not like this. I'm not like this. dont take this the wrong way) but I found myself thinking that since I can really deside if my leopard gecko is sick (she kinda is but she kinda isent) that it wouldent be a big deal if she died and I was really mad at myself for thinking this way but it seems that money infueinces the way we think even if we dont want it too. and I really care about all my animals it scares my to think how someone that owns one just because their kid wants it must think. (dont take this the wrong way!!! :eek: )

[paul_le_snake]

good point,
how many vets perform $200 surgery on a hamster? quite a few (which i think is good)
cheers
paul

[Lizzy]

As someone who owrks in a pet retail environment, I can say that 90% of the customers are thinking with their wallets, and if I don't think they should have an animal, I put together an outrageously expensive setup, than see what they think. If they complain about how much it costs, I say that the animal needs to have a proper environment before I can sell it. I can also determine whether they have done their research at this point or not. If they have more money than brains and still go for it, I know that the animal will atleast have all the right stuff and much more. This way if the owner is still being an idiot, perhaps the animal will have a better shot...to a point. It sucks that we live in such a consumer driven world. Ya know, if we had a system in place where people had to take a test about the animal that they want and fill out an application, which must be approved before buying ANY animal, we might not have a need for SPCA's and Reptile Rescues. We might not have a need to have all these stupid by-laws in place either because pet owners would be responsible.

[krrc]

ya lizzy I wish all people who sold reptiles (you do sell them right cuz you made sound like it) would make it their resposibitly to make sure the people that were to buy them had what they needed. Or as I have thought would be a good Idea for a wile find some way to deture a unsutible owner from buying a reptile buy makeing them look really expencive. hehe o> o> o>