Snakes and Memory

[PDXErik]

I was feeding the other day and my male Red tail was in the feed box. There's a hole on one side that he's discovered he can get out with.

I figure they aren't in there for very long, so the hole is no big deal.

I had turned the lid around so that the hole was on the opposite side. He kept nosing and pushing on the side that used to have the hole and eventually found it in the wrong spot.

How much memory do these guys have? I never thought they had much more than what they needed, but his demonstration got me thinking.

[gonesnakee]

First thing any snake will do when first put into anything is try & figure if they can get out of it. They will usually start by testing the perimeter (sp?), I don't think it has much to do with memory but more just basic instinct. "Can I get out of here?" I know if I was "contained" the first thing I would do is see if I could get out, pretty much what a snake will do as well. Mark

[PDXErik]

First thing any snake will do when first put into anything is try & figure if they can get out of it. They will usually start by testing the perimeter (sp?), I don't think it has much to do with memory but more just basic instinct. "Can I get out of here?" I know if I was "contained" the first thing I would do is see if I could get out, pretty much what a snake will do as well. Mark

Hehe, yeah, me too, however my white lipped would immediately begin searching for an appropriate corner to sit and sulk and be grumpy :unibrow: in.

[gonesnakee]

Sometimes of course they go right for a hide or a position of defense until you leave & then look for a way out once the "threat" or "guard" LOL has left the room. If one escapes while the "guard" is still present one doesn't get very far LOL Mark

[hecate]

Memory? You can train them.

Using positive reinforcement/applied operant conditioning, you can train snakes to enter a container, go through a trapdoor into the other side of a switch cage, follow a target, etc. Lots of useful behaviors for easier and safer management, especially of hots or big/quick/nasty individuals of any species, can be put under stimulus control.

I've never tried turtles or lizards, but since the best results come with active, greedy individuals, I'd expect varanids would be easy to train.

[Aaron_S]

Damn snakes are plotting to take us out! lol

[PDXErik]

Damn snakes are plotting to take us out! lol

As docile as mine are, it is still a bit unnerving to come up to the 6' female's cage and not find a snake in there. I haven't had an escape with my new enclosure (yet) but it's happened before.

[ffollett]

Snakes do have a memory. Ever hear of hook training?
I've never tried turtles or lizards, but since the best results come with active, greedy individuals, I'd expect varanids would be easy to train

I know someone was working with gators. Using a dog clicker to train them to understand when it was feeding time. He would use the clicker when it was time to eat. The idea is when they hear the clicker they know it is time to eat and if they didn't he could go in a clean out the enclosure without them hitting a feed response. Also on the episodes of croc hunter they talk about the crocs knowing the white food bucket meant it was time to eat.

[PDXErik]

Memory? You can train them.

Using positive reinforcement/applied operant conditioning, you can train snakes to enter a container, go through a trapdoor into the other side of a switch cage, follow a target, etc. Lots of useful behaviors for easier and safer management, especially of hots or big/quick/nasty individuals of any species, can be put under stimulus control.

I've never tried turtles or lizards, but since the best results come with active, greedy individuals, I'd expect varanids would be easy to train.

How about for running cable through ducts and drop ceilings?

Oh, God, that would be great.

[ffollett]

Not yet but they have rats that are trained to do that.

[PDXErik]

So you wind up with a cable, attached to a rat, hanging out of a boa's mouth, and you send the boa down the duct!

[ffollett]

the regurgitation part would suck for the snake.

[TailsW/Scales]

In my personal experiences some snakes are truely "smarter" then others. So far in my own little herp studdies Retics seem to have the most smarts. I have seen a Retic(s) test an enclosure systematically for weaknesses and holes. Even patched hole, that were WAY to small for them to get through were consistantly checked. I've patched up holes and completely covered them with a piece of wood, descented the enclosure, and sure enough back to the same hole they'd go.

I can tell all sorts of stories like that. Just my 2 cents.
:D





(I am a posting fool tonight!)

[PDXErik]

(I am a posting fool tonight!)


Well, you got one up on me :P

[Dianne]

I kept turtles (Long Point Painted) off and on through my youth and their "smarts" (what little they seemed to have) seemed pretty much "hard-wired" or instinctual. If you set one down on open ground, they head toward the nearest water. If you turn it 180 degrees and set it down, it turns back and heads for water again. You could do that ALL DAY LONG and the turtle will never get the idea that you wont let it go that way!

When I got a Boa later on, I wasn't expecting much difference but was really surprised to find a number of things that would indicate some "mental faculties". (My snake was well-handled and spent a lot of time out of his enclosure in people space.)

Some of the things I noticed were:

- He figured out where the warm places were and would hang out there when nothing was happening.

- He exhibited curiosity (beyond hunting). If somebody came in to the room, he would come out of his warm place to check out the new arrival. If I was working at my desk and anything was flashing or beeping, he would come down to check it out - just scent it and have a closer look.

- If he was hungry, he would leave his warm place and return to his cage so there was an awareness that his food came to him there.

- He liked to be handled and have his chin rubbed so he took some kind of pleasure or comfort in the interaction.

- When I would sunbath in the yard and took the Boa out with me, he never tried to stray too far or escape though he would hunt the flower beds or climb the Chinese Cherry Tree to hunt birds. That seemed to show an awareness that this was a good place to be (food and safety).

I only ever had the one Boa so I don't know how typical this behaviour was but there were enough things to indicate an awareness of what was around him and appropriate responses.

[Thnaky Laydee!]

Also on the episodes of croc hunter they talk about the crocs knowing the white food bucket meant it was time to eat.

I work with Big Cats, and we feed our tigers, lions, leopards & cheetahs using the orange wheelbarrow & orange buckets.

It too means that we can clean enclosures, using other coloured buckets, and transport stuff around in wheelbarrows without becoming prey...

... well that's the theory... I'm just waiting for our big fella to claim he had temporary colour blindness Your Honour! :yes:

[Aaron_S]

I only believe that snakes have a limited capacity for learning. They aren't entirely instinct. I've seen enough examples to indicate otherwise. Primarily instinct, but there's something else there. I think it could just be something primal within them that we trigger with hook training but otherwise I don't have any theory. I do notice top predator species tend to seem smarter (retics, croc monitors, crocodillians) Such like the example of a retic looking for weak spots in caging.

[Boots Hawks]

Awesome responses, I guess it is all personal belief. I for one believe my big girl Boa named Precious is very smart. She knows when I bring the big Rubber Maid container in the room that there is food in it. I can tell because she will move over close to the dood of her cage so I can get her our easier. The part that in remarkable to me is she will kill the rat first then if I am there she will try to climb up to me while still holding the rat. I have to hide or leave the room for her to eat. I let her climb all the way up into my lap one time with the rat, and she hung off the edge of the chair and my leg and ate it. I just don't want her getting in the habit of eating while on my lap. So I have not let her do that in a long time. My others just chomp away no matter what. But that is precious for you, spoiled I would say. I am just not sure about training them, I suppose they could be conditioned. I know they only will stick their nose on a hot light one time.

Boots H

[PDXErik]

Heh. I'm hoping that they don't have too much anymore as I have to give my rtb's antibiotic shots everyday for 14 days. It's been about a week through it and they're good enough, I just reach in there and give them a shot without taking them out. I was starting to worry that they would think that being handled meant being given a shot.