Keeping ball python outside

[AA23ds]

Hi everyone,

I'm a beginner and have a newbie question for some experienced python keeprs.

Can I keep my new ball python outdoors?

I live in Miami in a sixth floor apartment right on the water. The temperature is very stable in this part of the country and for most of the year it's 80s during the day and 70s at night. It is even more stable for me because I am within sight of the ocean, which keeps the temperature much more steady than people who live a few miles inland, preventing peak highs mid day and dipping lows in the dawn hours. I have one of those weather stations on my balcony that measures min and max accurately and in the last week, the highest temperature was 87 and the lowest was 76.

Indoors, I battled with keeping a good stable temperature in the acrylic aquarium I'm housing the snake in. I was getting a range of 73-78...too cold. So cold that the snake regurgitated his first meal with me 36 hours after swallowing it. My wife was pissed. http://python-forum.org/py/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif It stank up the whole room and the head was all digested and black looking. Pretty gross. I do not want him to do that again.

Anyway, I decided the temperature and humidity outside is the exact perfect range for ball pythons. So I put him on the balcony for now....until I can either get a better set up for indoors or someone here scares me out of this idea. And I'm sure there will be some good reasons put forward not to keep hom outside.

The tank has a plastic top with slits cut all over it and it can't get direct sunlight, so I don't think he will cook. The temperature won't get cold enough to harm him until december and I can bring him in then. I'm six floors up and smack in the middle of an urban area, so there's a lot less chance that parasites or other animals will affect the snake. Humidity is always moderate to high here, so he won't dry out. The cage is covered and can't get rained on, so there shouldn't be a mold problem from too much moisture.

I can't think of a reason not to keep it outside. At least until he holds a meal down for me.


I also read that ball pythons are becoming a problem species in this area....that suggests that our climate is perfect for them right. http://python-forum.org/py/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif


Thanks for any advice. And if there's a good reason not to keep the snake outside, I'm not going to ignore it, so don't feel like I've made up my mind....I just thought about the possible negatives and addressed the ones I thought ot.


Also, how long should I wait to feed him again? I waited 6 days after purchase to feed the first mouse, and that was three days ago. I figured I would try again in a few more days...should I wait longer. He looks a little thin to me.

[The Snake Guru]

Personally I don't like idea of keeping them outside, however if you can manage to keep the temperatures in thier prefered range I suppose it could be done, I guess one of the biggest things is making sure that it doesn't overheat but it sounds like you've already thought of that. I know there are people in your area that keep thier pythons outside most of the year so it is possible, I just don't advocate it.

As for feeding and the regurge....wait at least a week and try a prey item about half the size what you fed him before, you'll want to make sure he keeps this one down. It can become a cronic problem if not watched closely....if he keeps the smaller prey item down, than try a slightly larger one the next week.

~B~

[RIBBIT]

You Shouldn't Put Your Balls Outside

[gonesnakee]

Just buy the proper setup to keep it inside, I see nothing but problems with your idea. Unless one lives in Africa where they are native too, keep them indoors in a properly controlled enviroment. Sounds like you just bought a BP & a plastic critter keeper to me & are looking for a place just to be able to set it. More to it than that the enviroment there is far from perfect for it, with the right setup you can provide the exact perfect enviroment. Yo have zero control over the enviroment outside. Total control Vs no control. Hmmmm? You are going to have to purhcase more than just a criiter keeper to maintain the BP in a healthy enviroment. Mark
P.S. proper hotspot for a BP 90-95F proper coolside temp 80-85 F your snake will likely be sick quick, the regurge is a direct result of you keeping it too cold you have already made it sick due to improper care. A respitory infection is next up due to improper husbandry. Your snake is suffering as a direct result of your lack of research & proper preparation prior purchase. Hate to harsh, but thats the facts.

[viper99]

you should keep them inside or check the temperature alot to make sure it isint getting to warm or cold inside the tank

[AA23ds]

thanks for the input


I actually had a ten gallon acrylic aquarium that I used to use for fish...not a "critter keeper." I used cypress mulch for substrate and a rock water bowl large enough for the snake to soak in. I added a den for hiding and a heat rock which I burried to prevent burns (now removed in favor of a UTH style bad heater since I read how bad they are and since the outside temperature is so warm). Not sure how much better of a home you can expect for a 15 inch snake.:)

I probably should have read more about pythons before impulse buying one. I usually caution people against impulse purchases of fish and corals. I read for hours before purchasing new corals or fish. I just figured a snake is a snake....not like you have to measure calcium, pH, carbonate hardness, and temperature down to the nth degree. I mean if my aquariums drop by three degrees, everything in them is in serious danger of death. But oh how wrong I was about the python.

Now lets see if I can make things right for her.

I think I can keep the temperature better outside for now. I purchased a zoomed RH4 UTH heater, but it cautions against use with acrylic tanks....I just ordered a terrarium style glass tank with a screen lid and front doors...Untill it arrives, I think the snake should live outdoors.

It seems to me that the only issue is temperature so far. I asked the same question on another forum and also got some responses relating to temperature gradients.

If that is the only issue, then it is simply solved by getting the glass tank and using the pad heater on one side of it. The snake will be happier outside, as long as the temperatures remain no higher than 90 in the day and no lower than 75 at night....and that is pretty much how it stays here for 75% of the year. I can bring in the enclosure if the weather gets too hot or too cold.


So...anyone have any issues other than temperature?

And about the mouse....they gave me a small white lab mouse at the reptile store. How much smaller can I get? Should I ask for something else, or just the smallest lab mouse in their mouse cage?


Thanks


p.s. I'd hate to see anyome accusatory posts. People come to forums for help, not to be castigated. Let's put this in perspective....this is a snake that eats rodents for a living. We take little mice and whack them to kill or stun them so the snake can swallow them whole... we don't even give the mouse a fighting chance.:yes: It seems a bit silly to be harsh with a beginner for not giving the snake the exact perfect environment when the very act of proper care involves the constant killing of another kind of animal that is arguably a higher lifeform than the snake and the person is clearly seeking the proper path.:yes:

I can't be the only one that sees irony in striving to keep one animal in perfect comfort while smacking other animals on the counter and ending their comfort for the benefit of the first animal.


that said, I do want to keep the snake for the next 40 years, so all the help is much appreciated. Thanks all

[gonesnakee]

With the exception of live feedings all prey is humanely euthanized at the breeding facilities of such. Mice come in sizes based on age. Pinky, fuzzy, hopper, weanling. small adults, adults & jumbos. After a regurge it is important to wait until the snake has had a chance to recoup. One should wait at least 7-10 days after & then offer a very small meal at first & then work your way back up in size slowly. In your case I would give it a big fuzzy or sm hopper to start & go from there. I wouldn't do so until the temps can be kept warm enough for the snake to properly digest it or risk another regurge. Regurging in snakes is a very serious issue in snakes & its important to make sure it is well hydrated. Its not like a mammal or even a fish say throwing up not that big of a deal, in young snakes if it happens 2 or 3 times in a row it can be fatal. If they are fed too big of a meal too soon after a regurge they will puke. They need to have their digestive fluids bluid back up. If they are fed too big of a meal for them to digest at anytime they will puke. If they are too hot or too cold they will puke. The person that sold you the snake should have ensured you knew about it before selling it to you. Stores that sell exotic pets should be informing their buyers & buyers should do their homework ;) Mark

[Joe]

higher life form?

[The Snake Guru]

The snake will be happier outside, as long as the temperatures remain no higher than 90 in the day and no lower than 75 at night

Here's the main issue at hand....stable temperatures, I know this may seem silly because yes they live in the wild and have to deal with all sorts of temperature variations....but the catch is in the wild they can get deep underground away from extreme heat if needed or bask in cooler temps to warm up.

In a cage the size of a 10 gallon you cannot setup a proper thermal gradiant by putting it outside....the temps are too variable and uncontrolled and the snake has no place to escape too. If you get a 90 degree day it's going to be too hot....and 75 degrees at night is pushing the limits especially for a young snake, and upper respitory is sure to insue. This is what it breaks down too....you NEED the backround temperature to remain from 80F to 86F preferably in the mid range of that (This is air temperature) and you also (as in addition too the 80 to 86 degrees) need to provide and area of 90 to 95 degrees where the snake can bask if so desired....this hot spot area is most often provided by the under tank heater you already have said that you have...you are right though they are not recomened for Acrylic, you can however try to control the heat by placing a thermostat or rheostat inline with the heat mat to keep the temps on the 90 mark....which shouldn't effect the acrylic depending on the type. This Tmeperature range is a must not a suggestion, both sets of temperatures are not correct than the cage is not setup properly....you need both the hotside and the cooler side so the snake can properly thermoregulate....if the entire cage gets into the 90s there is a good chance your snake will over heat and die.

~B~

So there it is.....if you can't guarantee those temperatures outside, then you shouldn't be keeping it outside.

[AA23ds]

With the exception of live feedings all prey is humanely euthanized at the breeding facilities of such. Mice come in sizes based on age. Pinky, fuzzy, hopper, weanling. small adults, adults & jumbos. After a regurge it is important to wait until the snake has had a chance to recoup. One should wait at least 7-10 days after & then offer a very small meal at first & then work your way back up in size slowly. In your case I would give it a big fuzzy or sm hopper to start & go from there. I wouldn't do so until the temps can be kept warm enough for the snake to properly digest it or risk another regurge. Regurging in snakes is a very serious issue in snakes & its important to make sure it is well hydrated. Its not like a mammal or even a fish say throwing up not that big of a deal, in young snakes if it happens 2 or 3 times in a row it can be fatal. If they are fed too big of a meal too soon after a regurge they will puke. They need to have their digestive fluids bluid back up. If they are fed too big of a meal for them to digest at anytime they will puke. If they are too hot or too cold they will puke. The person that sold you the snake should have ensured you knew about it before selling it to you. Stores that sell exotic pets should be informing their buyers & buyers should do their homework ;) Mark


Thanks Mark

I'm not so sure how humane the death of the mouse my snake regurgitated was.....the guy at the reptile store took out the mouse and, holding it by the tail, whacked it on the edge of the counter....that didn't quite do the little guy in, so he whacked him again, explaining to me that you have to hit them just right to break the neck. I have to say I'm not sure what drives a man to a profession that involves the constant killing of animals by smacking them on a counter, but then I'm the guy creating a market for the smacked mice.:yes:



Anyway, I will wait until friday to feed another mouse to the snake...a small one this time.

About the heater, should I use the UTH style heater on an acrylic tank or not? It warns against it, but sometimes those warnings are just to keep the lawyers off the company's back. Is there any reason not to?

And once I get a glass tank, should I mount the UTH on the side or under the tank? And if under, should I use the cypress mulch I use now, or switch to astro turf or something else?

Thanks

[The Snake Guru]

And once I get a glass tank, should I mount the UTH on the side or under the tank?

Always on the bottom....Balls especially need the belly heat. Substrate you use with the heater won't matter it will heat through it.

~B~

[AA23ds]

higher life form?


I knew that would get a response.:yes:


Yes...higher. Like mammals are higher than reptiles and reptiles are higher than fish and fish are higher than insects...etc. It's all very subjective of course, but the snake is definitely lower on the lifeform scale than any mammal.

You know. A little mouse runs on a wheel and sleeps with other little mice and enjoys playing, munching on grains, exploring his surroundings, and running around and all the other things that we mammals enjoy, while a reptile has less brain power and enjoys lying around and thermoregulating and swallowing mammals.

You disagree?:):yes:

[Joe]

I disagree that we have the right to distinguish what is higher up a list, every living creature contributes to the planet in one way or another when the only thing us Humans have done is destroy it, I agree with some of the points, but I dont think it distinguishes us as the top of the list

[The Snake Guru]

I disagree that we have the right to distinguish what is higher up a list, every living creature contributes to the planet in one way or another when the only thing us Humans have done is destroy it, I agree with some of the points, but I dont think it distinguishes us as the top of the list

Hear! Hear! I know people who make stones look intelligent! LOL

~B~

[gonesnakee]

I'd suggest finding a better source for your feeders. Whacking them against the counter is not humane at all of course it is a very violent end specilly if not done the first whack. Large scale breeding operations humanely euthanize animals, freeze & pack them. They come frozen packed in trays, usually in 25 packs. Find a store that sells frozen prey & give them your business. The store that sold you the snake did not provide you the proper info/suport right off the bat & if they think blunt trauma to the head is humane it is not. As far as "higher life form" goes who is closest to the top of their food chain the rodents or the snake ;) Mark

[drec91]

some very good points have been made on this thread aa23ds it seemed like you were arguing against one of your own hobbies there for a sec it does seem a bit ridiculous to decide which animals are "higher" up on the "list" though i agree it is cruel to smack a mouse off of a counter top twice. most of the people here are passionate reptle keepers, so expect passionate answers, although they may seem cruel.
good luck with your python it will be a rewarding experience
PeAcE

[Joe]

leave out the pinky braining and pictus slurshy recipe from this post I guess! lol

[AA23ds]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I purchased a smaller UTH heater that is supposed to be safe for plastic and acrylic tanks because it is relatively low heat. I stuck it to the bottom of the tank on one side toward the back, below the spot the snake likes to curl up in, opposite the water bowl. The temp hasn't stabalized yet, but it seems like its hovering around 90 in that spot.

On Friday, I'll go buy the smallest rodent I can find and see if she will hold this one down. Now that she has perfect temperatures in her home, WITH A NEAR PERFECT GRADIENT:yes:, the only other thing that could go wrong is feeding her too soon or feeding her too big of a mouse. If I wait for the digestive juices to build, as stated here, and I feed a small enough rodent, with a good hot spot so the snake can digest, all I can do is hope there isn't something internally wrong or that the extra week without food didn't do too much damage.

Thanks again for all the advice. Hopefully the snake makes it over this hump and I'll start a dozen more threads asking questions in the future.

[gonesnakee]

Seeings how you mentioned a possible internal problem, if the snake has internal parasites that could lead ot a series of regurges as well. Likely not anything to do with your case (touch wood), but I thought I would mention it, Mark

[AA23ds]

Seeings how you mentioned a possible internal problem, if the snake has internal parasites that could lead ot a series of regurges as well. Likely not anything to do with your case (touch wood), but I thought I would mention it, Mark


That's what I meant by internal problem. I figure the first regurge was due to low temperature and a lack of a high temperature spot in the tank....and possibly too large a prey item.

With those conditions fixed, all that's left is parasites or some other health problem. I guess I won't know about that until I try another mouse on Friday.

Wish me luck

Regards,
Manny

[AA23ds]

Just wanted to thank you all for the advice and help.

She seems to be doing well and its been 60 hours since she swallowed the mouse I fed on Friday. She hid in the warm spot in the hide for the first 48 hours and then tonight she came out and started exploring the cage, climbing on the fake branch thing and drinking water. I took her out for a few minutes while I cleaned the water bowl and I noticed a marked improvement in strength, temperment, and curiousity. She looks great. The meal did her a world of good.

So thanks guys!

[Herpkid101x]

i agree with joe we really havent done anything but destroy this planet and kill many creatures in the millions or possibly an even larger number.

[AA23ds]

i agree with joe we really havent done anything but destroy this planet and kill many creatures in the millions or possibly an even larger number.


Gotta love how the greenies indoctrinate them before they even hit highschool.

[Joe]

calling me names already, and you hardly even know me yet! lol

[Jason Wakelin]

Manny,

This is with regards to the UTH, in case you need to set up a cage in the future. Personally I do not fix them directly to the tank. Once fixed onto a tank they will not come off, unless you break the tank. Even then they will be covered with pieces of broken glass that are very dangerous to try to remove. Instead, after removing the paper from the UTH I lay a piece of aluminum foil, dull side down, directly onto the sticky surface. I then place a ceramic tile between the UTH and the surface it is resting on to keep it in place and difuse extra heat. I have been doing this since UTH's came onto the market and have never had any type of issues with this technique. For a person with one snake and a relatively unlimited budget this may seem trivial. But when you have 30, 40 or 50+ cages the money saved, and flexibility to move UTH's from tank to tank is invaluable.

[AA23ds]

Manny,

This is with regards to the UTH, in case you need to set up a cage in the future. Personally I do not fix them directly to the tank. Once fixed onto a tank they will not come off, unless you break the tank. Even then they will be covered with pieces of broken glass that are very dangerous to try to remove. Instead, after removing the paper from the UTH I lay a piece of aluminum foil, dull side down, directly onto the sticky surface. I then place a ceramic tile between the UTH and the surface it is resting on to keep it in place and difuse extra heat. I have been doing this since UTH's came onto the market and have never had any type of issues with this technique. For a person with one snake and a relatively unlimited budget this may seem trivial. But when you have 30, 40 or 50+ cages the money saved, and flexibility to move UTH's from tank to tank is invaluable.


That is really great advice. I was trying to come up with a way to use the UTH without sticking it permanently to a tank. My idea was sticking it to a piece of glass, but that could break and the extra glass would diffuse a lot of heat that wouldn't transfer up through the tank bottom...I never tried it.

I ended up sticking this one to the tank bottom, but it's the lowest watttage/cheapest one because that's the only one that says its ok for use with acrylic tanks. But now I have a workable reptile tank with that one.

When I get a tank with a glass bottom, I'll use your method to make it more convenient.


I didn't even know UTHs existed until I got this snake. The snakes I owned when I was a kid all did fine with heat rocks and lamps.:yes: