View Full Version : Baby Ball problems eating.
moonsongs
07-30-07, 06:54 PM
I have had my baby ball, he's about 15 inches, for about a month a half. I have tried to feed him frozen and pre-killed mice, of the appropriate size, but is not interested in them. When I tried to feed him a live mouse, he was definitely interested. The problem is that when he attacks the mouse and coils, he doesn't seem to be strong enough to suffocate the mouse.
So, the mouse gets free and then the snake balls up and that's the last of the interaction. I'm afraid that since he's a baby, he isn't getting the nutrition he needs. Is there anything I can do?
Aaron_S
07-30-07, 10:59 PM
Try live with a bit of a smaller prey item.
Herpkid101x
07-31-07, 08:11 AM
what kinda mouse is it? and also maybe when its about 20 inches you could try again and if not you could just kill it for him or get a frozen one
The Snake Guru
07-31-07, 11:14 AM
Like Aaron said I would go with a smaller sized mouse such as a Hopper, he should be able to take that on, no problem....obviously the feeding response is there.
Also have you tried Tease feeding? Warm a F/T mouse up and jiggle it in front of him (with a tongs) to give it the appearance of being alive....they usually fall for the trick.
~B~
moonsongs
08-01-07, 04:04 PM
I've been trying to feed it a hopper mouse. but he doesn't seem to be able to suffocate it. someone told me the mouse could be too small but that doesn't make sense as to why the mouse is able get away.
i have tried the frozen mouse and prekilled avenue but he is not interested in it at all.
i've checked the humidity, temperature, other tank conditions but that doesn't seem to be the problem. he wants to eat but just can't kill the mouse.
what do you mean by letting the snake get to 20 inches then try again? how fast do snakes grow?
The Snake Guru
08-01-07, 06:45 PM
I've been trying to feed it a hopper mouse. but he doesn't seem to be able to suffocate it. someone told me the mouse could be too small but that doesn't make sense as to why the mouse is able get away.
That is actually possible....BPs have a rather inefficiant coiling system (as far as snakes are concerned) Most of mine do one or 2 loops at most....which actually would allow for a very small rodent to wiggle free and escape if it was quick enough, have you tried larger prey items? Perhaps like a small adult?
I don't think your caging is an issue, the snake obviously wants to feed if it is actively seizing prey when offered....even hatchling balls can take on Weanling and Small Adult mice so you may want to give that a try.
~B~
moonsongs
08-01-07, 08:02 PM
I've tried a weanling and the same thing happened so I thought it was too strong and got the hopper and still no luck. But I thought you were only supposed to feed the snake food that is as big as the largest part of it's body? The weanling looking like it was way too big for him but it too got away. How would it be able to eat a weanling or an adult? The snake is only 15 inches long so his body isn't that big. He wont eat prekilled so I don't want him to get hurt by a live adult mouse.
Reticsrule
08-01-07, 08:53 PM
As I'm sure you are aware of, Balls are notorious for being poor feeders. However, as the others have said, in your case the feeding response does seem to be present. You are correct on the prey guidelines. The prey item should be 1-1.5x the size of the snake's largest part. I don't have much experience with Balls myself, but might I suggest trying a weanling/fuzzy RAT? You will eventually need to get it on rats anyway so you might want to try now and see what kind of response you get to that. Good Luck!
The Snake Guru
08-01-07, 09:37 PM
Well again size can be matter of opinion what one person calls a weanling other call a hopper....but that is neither here nor there.
The feeding guidlines you mentioned are correct and you should be feeding according to that size rule.
Now, something is just not fitting though.....the snake has a feeding response, so I'm going to ask again....have you tried warming the prey and jiggling it in front of him making it look alive? Or have you just been throwing it in the bottom of the cage?
The warming part is very important...if it doesn't give off anough heat you aren't going to ellicite a response....you don't want it burning hot, but it has to get up to that 90 degree range for it to be able to be picked up as a living animal by the python.
Moving the prey item with a long tongs or tweezers is the other important part....if it doesn't look alive he won't go for it.
Rat pinkies would be another option....they should be the size of hopper mice.
~B~
moonsongs
08-01-07, 09:45 PM
Actually, I was using frozen rat pinkies. I used tongs to kinda move it around him but he just acted so uninterested. I thought I was warming it enough but how would you suggest to do so? Is it likely he just doesn't like frozen? Or is it more likely that I'm just going about this in the wrong way?
The Snake Guru
08-02-07, 12:06 AM
More likely you are going about the wrong way.
Put the rat in a baggie, then soak in hot water till warm. Then jiggle about 4" away from his nose. back and fourth....but make him come to it....don't bring it to him.
~B~
Herpkid101x
08-02-07, 10:34 AM
I've been trying to feed it a hopper mouse. but he doesn't seem to be able to suffocate it. someone told me the mouse could be too small but that doesn't make sense as to why the mouse is able get away.
i have tried the frozen mouse and prekilled avenue but he is not interested in it at all.
i've checked the humidity, temperature, other tank conditions but that doesn't seem to be the problem. he wants to eat but just can't kill the mouse.
what do you mean by letting the snake get to 20 inches then try again? how fast do snakes grow?
what i mean is that if he's about 20 inches he will have a more longer body, stronger coils to grip the mouse and more muscles to squeze it with
If that ball doesn't eat, there is no way hes ever going to see 20 inches, so your point is moot.
I would do what SG mentioned, but leave out the baggie, and throw the food item right into the hot water. The warmer the food, the better chance that your baby will take it. Good luck.
keg_1981
08-02-07, 11:01 PM
I had a baby ball That i was told had already feed but after a month and a half of owning it still would not eat. Snakes do not like food being forced but if its life is on the line like mine was it's worth it. My ball eventually started eating on her own, but i force fed her for 6 months.
sierrabravo
08-07-07, 12:49 AM
A friend of mine at work has a BP like I do, and he said that he had trouble feeding live mice to him, escaping and all, so he used a pair of needle nose pliers and broke two alternate legs on the mouse so its harder for it to get away... I know; I know it sounds cruel, but it's just a feeder, and personally I would rather have my bp survive than the damn mice.
another good point about putting the rodent directly in the water is alot of times when a snake has gone without food for some time it can become a little dehydrated, the more moisture he gets the better for the animal, if all else fails and u notice the snake loosing weight I would suggest assist feeding it, generally always works, dont confuse this with force feeding where only a well versed herper should attempt, assist feeding is easy though, take a much smaller prey item then usual, have it wet, and warm, not hot, hold the snake gently by the back of its head and gently pry the mouth open with the nose of the rodent, push the rodent in only enough that the snakes teeth are stuck to it and close to the back of his mouth, release the snake and generally the snake will continue to consume the prey on its own, if you have any questions email me and I can email you pics on the proper procedure if you dont understand exactly from my explenation, good luck and best wishes,
I would also like to add, sierrabravo, that is completly cruel, no animal should be treated like that, rodent or snake or anything for that matter, all animals, pets or feeders should be kept with respect and the animals best interest in mind
I agree with Joe. Not cool. If a ball is hungry, he will eat the food item whether it is injured or not. Not cool.
stacyclaire
08-07-07, 02:16 PM
My bp wouldn't eat for a month after I first got him (he was about 18 inches long). Someone suggested I heat the defrosted mouse in the microwave for 3-4 seconds (no longer! you don't want it to start decomposing). That seemed to make it the right temperature. He went after it fast when I dangled it at that temperature and has been eating them great ever since.
Only prob with microwaves is they heat the prey from the inside out, no way to determin the actual core temperature and could serriously hurt your snake
Herpkid101x
08-07-07, 02:48 PM
If that ball doesn't eat, there is no way hes ever going to see 20 inches, so your point is moot.
I would do what SG mentioned, but leave out the baggie, and throw the food item right into the hot water. The warmer the food, the better chance that your baby will take it. Good luck.
oh yea i forgot about that part
moonsongs
08-07-07, 04:20 PM
Well, I thank everyone for their great advice but unfortunately my snake died on Saturday from IBD. Even though he was only part of the family for a short while, he was a great companion and he will be missed.
R.I.P.
Reggie
That is very sad. I haven't been on the forum for a while so missed your original post.
Who told you your snake had IBD? Was it your vet?
If you get another Royal Python (Ball) you will need to make sure the viv is thorough disinfected and all the viv furniture is disinfected too, along with the water bowl. Even better would be to scrap the whole lot and start again.
I keep Royals and have three of them. One rescue approximately 3 years old who is just under 4ft long, one Royal I have had since he was a hatchling - he's 2 years old now and a baby we've had for the past 2 months. She is eating and growing well.
Perhaps the most important thing with Royals is not handling them when you first get them. Very difficult because we all want to handle our new snakes but not doing so is very important until you establish a good feeding routine.
Temps should be 92 deg F warm end, going down in a gradient to around 78 - 80 deg F cool end.
Make sure the snake has plenty of hides to go into. Royals don't like too much space so don't have a viv or hides that are too big for the snake.
Basic I know but always make sure he has a good supply of fresh water.
Unless you live in a very dry atmosphere humidity should be no higher than 50 - 55% except when the snake is shedding when you can give the viv a fine misting (a plant sprayer comes in handy) once or twice a day. Once the snake has shed, stop misting the viv. Don't mist so much that there's water running down the walls or glass. Royals do not need high humidity and high humidity could very quickly cause scale rot. We're quite lucky in the UK because we have a natural humidity and it very seldom gets too dry here.
For the first week do not handle and do not attempt to feed the Royal. They are shy snakes and can take a little time to settle into their new surroundings.
After a week, offer him a frozen/thawed fuzzy mouse. In the UK it is illegal to feed a snake live food and I would not feed live as I have seen a heartbreaking pic of what can happen when a mouse (mouse, not rat) turns on the snake. It killed the snake.
I find warming up the mouse with the hairdryer is the best way. Sometimes heating mice in a plastic bag in water leaves their fur wet, although this is the way I warm up rats for my Boas. None of my Royals will eat a wet mouse or rat. Blow-dried mouse is obviously tastier!
Hopefully (and most likely) the snake will eat. If he does not, then bin the mouse and try again a few days later with a freshly thawed mouse following the same procedure as above.
Only handle your snake briefly to change soiled substrate and put him back immediately with as little fuss as possible. Still a difficult time for you because you want to handle the snake. Desist! Most important.
Once your snake has had at least 4 feeds you can then start handling him gently for a few minutes, gradually building up handling time. This gives both you and the snake time to gain confidence with each other. If your snake bites you don't put him down as he'll quickly learn that biting you means you'll put him down and that is what he wants. All baby snakes see anything bigger than themselves as a predator that's going to eat them. They don't know that snake is not on our menu. A defensive strike the snake will strike then let go. A snake in feeding mode tends to hold on until he decides your not very tasty at all.
Never handle your snake after he's eaten. I always give my snakes 48 hours after their meal before handling them and with the bigger snakes at least 3 days.
I was given this advice when I first started keeping Royals and it is the best advice I was given and am happy to pass on that advice to you and anyone else who's never kept a Royal before or is not sure of its care.
They are lovely snakes and if these basic rules are followed your snake should have a long and healthy (and happy) life.
The Royal I've had since he was a hatchling did his first public display a few weeks ago at our vet's open day. I wondered if it would put him off-feed (a common occurrence with Royals) as he'd never been among so many people before. It obviously didn't worry him at all as he ate a meal of a good sized rat a few days later. He is very bold for a Royal, not in the least bit shy whereas my rescue Royal is very shy, probably due to the bad start in life he had (he nearly died). He's a very healthy snake now but still shy.
If you get another Royal, I'm sure things will turn out better next time.
Mátthew
08-14-07, 09:12 AM
Hey I'm pretty new to this forum and I could be wrong but my ball python wouldn't eat for about two months when i first got him, but after that it ate fine. I just thought it was because of it getting settled in. So ya i could be wrong but thats my opinion.
Sometimes Royals do take a while to settle. They also go off feed for reasons only known to themselves. If temps and humidity are correct and you follow the rules above, your snake should settle in well. Royals are also notoriously fussy. My rescue Royal has decided he doesn't like rats and has been eating large mice for the past 6 months now. Then he'll get fed up with them and go back to rats. My other Royal won't eat mice but loves rats. Our baby Royal is quite happy to eat mice but after another couple of feeds I'm going to try her on rat pups.
Although Royals (Ball Pythons) are often said to be good beginner snakes, my opinion is they are not because of their fussiness with food. Often part of the problem is the owners get really worried when the snake won't eat (natural - I got worried when mine went off feed). It's a Royal thing and something owners of these beautiful snakes will have to live with.
For a first time snake I don't think you can do better than Cornsnakes. These lovely snakes come in so many different colours, tend to be good eaters and are usually very friendly. Kingsnakes are also good as are Boa Constrictors - but, of course, Boas grow very large. Handled regularly Boas are usually gentle giants.
Though I do agree with most of the information that Fionak has given, I don't agree with this:
"For the first week do not handle and do not attempt to feed the Royal"
The last part at least.
I have found from owning quite a few balls for quite a few years that it's stressful enough for a ball to be relocated to a new home, with new surroundings and such. Why stress him out by holding back food? I have ALWAYS fed any new ball to my home as soon as I get it, and 90% of the time, they'll eat and they're off to the races.
I would also suggest a clean, easy to use substrate like paper towels at least until your ball is eating consistently, but ideally, forever.
Good luck.
Don't agree 100% with that purely because baby Royals are so easily stressed. They need a bit of time to settle into their new home. Most snakes will have come from a shop and they should have a feeding record. Most times they will have been fed two or three days before you collect them so the chances are they won't be that hungry anyway. When I get a new snake I always make sure I find out when they were last fed and what they were fed on. We use reputable shops who give you this information usually before you ask it.
When I got my first Royal I offered him food in the first week. That was a mistake. He wouldn't look at it and I turned to a well known American snake forum for advice. The advice I was given is what I've reproduced above. It took my first Royal 3 weeks to start eating. He eats all the time now. Loves his food. My rescue I had about 5 days and as I was feeding the rest of the snakes I offered him food and he ate it. He's also a good eater. Our youngest Royal (we've had her about 8 weeks now) we let settle in for about 5 or 6 days, no handling just going into her viv to give her fresh water and she eats like she's never seen food before. Great little feeder and like my other Royals, sheds like a dream.
Every snake is different. My two snakes I got on Sunday - a baby Cross Pinesnake/Bullsnake and a Cali Kingsnake I've let settle in but they're showing signs of being hungry - they're both out and on the prowl so they'll get fed tomorrow. Don't envisage any problems with them.
I always use paper towel in all of my vivs. The paper towel company must think I've got shares in them! Best thing I think as it's quick and easy to change and hygienic and quickly shows up any nasties like mites if you get a new snake.
The Snake Guru
08-15-07, 07:45 PM
To tell you the truth...a week of "settling in" without food is not going to stress out a snake, snakes aren't like other critters that go through -hunger pains- from skipping a week here and there...it's part of thier natural function, they are made to go expanses without food. On this point I have to agree with "fionak" I do believe feeding too early in the "settling in" process can actually cause more harm than good. In fact as a general rule I don't feed any of my new snakes for the first week....not just balls.
At anyrate, just my opinion.
~B~
Absolutely agree Snake Guru. It's a mistake many people (including myself) make when they first get a baby Royal, the second is handling it too much too soon. So difficult to keep you hands off them when all you want to do is handle them but waiting until they've established a good feeding routine (at least 4 feeds) pays dividends.
My new Pine/Bullsnake and Cali babies are out on the prowl again now so later on this evening I'll offer them food. I have a feeling that they won't disappoint me:)
The Snake Guru
08-16-07, 11:59 AM
LOL, yeah isn't that the truth!
And yeah you just gotta love bulls....one of the snakes I know that can eat one day, crap it out on day 2 and be ready and willing to go again! LOL Fun snakes though, I just love Pits.
~B~
Well, I offered them food last night and they didn't disappoint me. The Pine/Bullsnake went all shy, wouldn't strike so I left the mouse (f/t) just infront of his hide. Five minutes later mouse gone. Second mouse went the same way.
The baby Kingsnake is a good striker. I only defrosted 2 pinkies for her which she disposed of very quickly - and was still looking for more. I love it when a new snake feeds for the first time with me. They'll get fed again on Monday evening. This time I'll defrost 4 pinkies for the Kingsnake. I have a feeling she'll eat them all. I think she's just on the small side to handle fuzzies at the moment but I don't think it will be long before she does.
mines two months and im feeding him large fuzzies and hes 16" just try large fuzzies
She's round about 12 - 13 inches long so I think fuzzies are maybe just on the big side for her yet. I got a load of pinkie mice free when I got her so I'll use them up first. I've got some smallish fuzzies in the freezer I'll try her on in about 2 weeks time. By that time the pinkie mice should be eaten. The Pine/Bullsnake eats small mice or rat pups. Couldn't get any rat pups as the shop had run out but I had plenty of small mice.
Got more snake food in the freezer than human food:rolleyes:
Barbequed mice anyone?:laugh:
Well, I'm going to have to disagree. I've actually acquired maybe 50 balls in the last 7 years or so from other breeders, aside from the few hundred I've produced myself, save for my first two from a pets store. Since I've been doing this seriously though, I have actually asked breeders whom I was getting snakes from to not feed for a week before shipping to me. Half of those 50 were sent via air, and as soon as they get home, I get a meal into them, and they do just fine.
If I were talking about 1 or 2 balls here, maybe it could be chalked up as coincidence, but certinaly that many.
Though I do agree that a week without food is a piss in the bucket for a ball (I've got two adults that haven't taken a meal in almost 2 years) I've had GREAT success feeding as soon as they come in. NEVER a regurg.
Sorry you've never tried it. I find with a full belly, life is just a whole lot easier......
Interesting comment - "Sorry you've never tried it. I find with a full belly, life is just a whole lot easier......"
I did try it (read my post again) and I ended up with a baby Royal that refused to eat for nearly 3 weeks! The advice I've been given, both from breeders world-wide and here in the UK is not to feed a Royal for the first week. Advice I've followed since then and so far I haven't had any more problems.
Guess I'm just lucky 50 times over then......
Reptile husbandry has come a LOOOOOONG way in the last 25 years. If the "pioneer" reptile keepers did what they they heard or read, we would all be housing our ball pythons in fish cages, using an overhead UVB for heat, and feeding them live gerbils and hamsters.
It's good to try something new and not just "status quo" it.
You might just find something that works for ya'.
I'm was just offering up an alternative that has worked for me.
Sometimes I wonder if things have come anywhere at all.
Last year we got a rescue Cornsnake who had been kept in an old fishtank. No hides, filthy Aspen substrate and not even fresh water. His water bowl was bone dry:mad:
Worse still he had an unguarded household lightbulb for a heatsource, not even on a thermostat (so he was either too hot or too cold) and the inevitable had happened. He got badly burned. The burns were healed up by the time I got him but have left deep scarring all down one side:no:
He's a lovely snake - beautiful colours and very friendly. He was also underweight so the previous "owners" (if you can call them that) obviously couldn't be bothered feeding him either.
Happy to say he's well looked after now and really quite stunning despite his scars:)
My Boas were fed within a couple of days of us getting them and they ate no problem. It's just Royals I'm a bit wary with because they can be so easily upset.
I don't follow the "status quo" all the time - I'm one of the few people who think snakes can and do form relationships with their owners (in their own way). Now that's my head on the chopping block LOL.
I understand what you're saying. I like to mix it up sometimes because balls are so varied in their personalities and behaviors that what might work for one may not work for another.
I just figured I would share my success with experimenting on feeding immediately as, like I said, it has worked for me. I'll keep all the failed attempts to myself though....
Royals most certainly have different personalities. Our rescue, Bobby is quite shy on initial handling but settles down after a few minutes. He also seems to prefer sitting on my husband rather than on me.
Byron my Royal (had him since he was a baby) is very bold, not a bit shy. He has some really strange quirks. One is when I take him out he rubs his face against my face and will "kiss" me. The other strange quirk he has is he refuses to eat off tongs. I have to hand feed him (holding rat by the tail). Even if my hands have been warmer than the rat he's always struck the rat and never even come close to hitting my hand. It's almost as if he knows the difference. When I've tried feeding him with the tongs he backs away from me. I could swear he gives me a hurt look LOL!
Rosie our baby Royal has a very similar temperament to Byron (when she's older I think they'll make a very good pairing). However, I feed her with tongs as when there's food around she turns into an eating machine.
A few weeks ago I was asked to do a demonstration at our vet's open day with a couple of our snakes. We took Byron and one of our Boas, Zag (our girl). Our other Boa, Zig (our boy) was in shed so we couldn't take him. It was the first time they'd ever done anything like this (and us too). I did worry that it might put Byron off feed. Both of them were stars and behaved beautifully despite many people, young and old coming up to stroke them (some touching a snake for the first time). I needn't have worried about Byron. He fed no problem a couple of days later.
One quirk Bobby has is he's a great weather-forecaster. Every time we get a thunderstorm, a few hours before Bobby will come out of his hide and sit on top of it. He forecasts thunderstorms with 100% accuracy which is really useful to us because our dog is terrified of thunderstorms and once almost chewed her way out the back door causing quite a lot of damage. Now when we see Bobby sitting on top of one of the hides we make sure the dog is not left on her own.
Clever snake:)
Wow!!! when I said "personality", that's not what I meant.........
Raven22
08-18-07, 08:28 PM
try just leaving a dead outside its hide all nice and ready for it?
My book has that as a suggestion to get a relctant feeder to eat.
Do that too. Don't need to with our Royals - they know good food when they see it LOL.
However, we have a Snow Corn that is a reluctant feeder and we did just that. Worked very well. He's a shy feeder and won't strike at the food like the others do so we put his food just by the entrance to his hide. He eats no problem now.
A lot of it is knowing your snake. When I first started keeping snakes another very good piece of advice I got was to learn the snake's body language. At the time I wondered how on earth do you do that but by literally watching the snakes I learnt very quickly.
They are indeed fascinating animals and a joy to have as part of our family:)
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