Mites??

[Jessica_101]

I just got back from vacation and my snake has these little things on it. I dont know what they are, theyre really really small (like a pencil dot) and white and they move around. Theyre not around the snakes head, just sort of on his body. Theres probably about ten of them. He is acting normal, eating fine, and isnt soaking in his water dish or anything . Anybody have an idea of what they might be? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[robertS]

most likely mites.remove ones you can see.and get something to get rid of them.make sure when you use mite treatment to clean up everything in your cage as well.

[Herp Whisperer]

Jessica
Those would be the dreaded snake mites. They look like the period at the end of this sentence, and are generally black, red, or white.
No worries though- just takes a little work.
Here's what I do when I have this problem- I'm sure other folks have a favorite method, and you'll probably get a variety of answers. One thing however- DO NOT let your vet inject Ivermectin. Ivermectic kills snakes fairly often, and there are better ways.
First, get another container for your snake- Rubbermaid is fine, it's temporary. Don't keep your snake on wood chips or other natural substrate- it took me years to learn this lesson, but use astroturf (fake grass) or newspaper, butcher paper, etc.
Leave the temporary enclosure bare-bottomed, no substrate at all. Give your snake a bath- if he'll soak quietly, let him soak for 30 minutes or so- many of the mites will drown or simply wash off.
Buy some De Flea Reptile Relief, by Natural Chemistry, online or at the pet supply. I just discovered this stuff fairly recently, and damned if it doesn't work- years ago I would have scoffed at anything over-the-counter. Spray your snake directly with the rep relief, do not dry, and place him in the temporary enclosure.
(An alternate is Provent-a-Mite, which works well too)
Now take his regular enclosure outside, if possible- if not you'll just have to be careful. Mix up a gallon or so of a 5% bleach/water solution, and thoroughly- and wetly- wipe down his entire enclosure, and let it sit. If you can, submerge all of the enclosure's "furniture" (Hides, tubs, water dishes, etc) in a bleach solution and let it sit. After about an hour, thoroughly- and repeatedly- rinse and dry the enclosure and furniture.
If you use any wooden items, wrap them in foil and bake them for 20 minutes at 350 degrees. (tree limbs, wooden hides, etc) If too large for the oven...I'd replace them.
You can put it all back together, but let your snake live in the bare rubbermaid (or whatever) for about 2 weeks, then wet him with the reptile relief again. Give it a day, then you should be ok to return him to his regular enclosure- inspect him for mites, particularly around his eyes, the crease in the bottom of his lower jaw heat pits (if applicable) etc. If he's clean, you're probably ok.
Wild snakes have mites- and it isn't generally a problem for them. The snake moves around alot, and regularly sheds his skin, and the mites. In captivity, however, he's stuck with them- and they multiply pretty quickly. (This is the reason for the second snake treatment, to get any newly hatched mites)

Oh- if you see "about 10 of them", there are alot more, guaranteed!

Good luck- most of us have been through this at some point(s)!

James

[gonesnakee]

First off how do we know they are snake mites for sure. Well folks the easiest way to tell is too observe the ones you can see. Are any attached to the snake? If so squish those ones first, is there blood when you squish them or any others you squish? If so most likely snake mites. Also snake mites are not white they are usually red or black. I've never seen or heard of white ones anyhow. What type substrate do you use? Is it any kind of bark or wood chips or shavings? Ever see wood mites before? They are tiny lil white suckers that have been known to casue us snake folks undue stress thinking that somehow we have become infested. Any new snakes lately? How long have you had the snake in question? Snake mites don't just show up. The snake either had them the whole time & you are just finding out about them or they were introduced by another host, thus a new snake. There is the rare occassion that you could have picked up a "tag-a-long" one that you had on yourself by handling someone elses infested snake or being at their place & having brought it back on your clothing. Best bet to quarrantine new ones & as part of that a precautionary mite treatment. Never handle others snakes, specially at a petstore & then handle your own. With the exception of herp shows I shower & change before touching my stuff after handling others stuff, specially at a store. Anyhow if they are mites the post above is the basic type treatment, though I'd recomend NIX or PAM (provent a mite) both have the same active ingredient & both kill mite eggs as well. Not sure about the other product mentioned, but the treatment is similar. I would give everything a good cleaning as mentioned & also spray it all down with NIX or PAM too, hope they are just wood mites, Cheers Mark

[Herp Whisperer]

Ok, I guess I need to get a little more technical for some folks.
The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, goes through several stages after hatching- The first stage after the hatch is larval. The larvae are white, have six legs, and exist for about 24 hours.
Next the larvae become protonymphs, which, again, are white or light yellow colored. They have 8 legs in the protonymph stage. Protonymphs can appear red if they are engorged with blood, but their natural color is white or nearly so.
Protonymphs then become Deutonymphs, which are dark colored- red or black, and large- probably engorged, although it is not believed that they feed during this stage, which appears to be purely transitional.
Finally, the mites reach the mature, or adult, form. Adult Ophionyssus natricis can vary in color from ivory to tan to dark red or black- although they are actually an ivory color, and the darker variations are due to blood engorgement.
So essentially, you can ignore these mites and wait to see if they get darker in a week or two (while they are laying eggs) or you can assume they are snake mites now, and treat the snake and enclosure.
As for Nix, several herpetological and veterinary newsletters I receive have reported reptile deaths after using Nix as a mite treatment. I have never used it myself, but I have known people who have- it may be safe, as there is no control nor even info on how these reptiles were treated with the stuff- the deaths may be from improper usage and not the chemical itself. However, with proven products like Reptile relief and provent a mite available, why risk it?

Good luck!

James

[gonesnakee]

As for Nix, several herpetological and veterinary newsletters I receive have reported reptile deaths after using Nix as a mite treatment. I have never used it myself, but I have known people who have- it may be safe, as there is no control nor even info on how these reptiles were treated with the stuff- the deaths may be from improper usage and not the chemical itself. However, with proven products like Reptile relief and provent a mite available, why risk it?

Ah I guess you missed part of the facts there I'd recomend NIX or PAM (provent a mite) both have the same active ingredient & both kill mite eggs as well. PAM & NIX are one in the same, as the active ingredient is the same chemical. ;) The only cases I have ever heard of NIX causing death in snakes is by folks applying it directly to the snake in full concentration (it is diluted with a gallon of distilled water if the treatment is done correctly). PAM is a reptile specific product that you will pay a lot more for & is only available in herp stores, whereas NIX is far cheaper & available at any pharmacy. As far as mites being white well it seems you know lots about them, but they can't even be seen by the "naked eye" at the stages you are refering too, so I guess likely why everyone considers them to be black or red. You have assummed they are snake mites right off, something one might want to verify before putting their entire collection thru full blown mite treatment don't ya think? Maybe you are not famililar with wood mites but they come in wood products occassionally & are harmless to herps & are often mistaken for snake mites. Something you might want to also research as you come across the type that likes to get a little more technical LOL & while you are at it check out the active ingredients in the products you are suggesting using over the ones you are suggesting not too. If the active ingredient is the exact same how can one reccomend one to be safe & the other not ;) I am a snake breeder & myslef & most all other snake breeders I know all use NIX as a precautionary measure with all new aquisistions as part of a quaratine procedure & in the event of a snake actually arriving in a shipment with a mite infestation NIX has worked successfully every single time with zero ill effects in my experience & that of all other breeders I know. I just attended one of the largest shows in Canada this weekend & every snake breeder there was using NIX on all of their new aqusistions as well as on their stock that they took home after the show to ensure that no "tag-alongs" were brought to their tables by other vendors or attendees. When one keeps literally 100's (couple of friends of mine keep 1000's) of snakes (some high end specimens worth as much as $10,000+ each) you don't want to risk your collection/livelihood. NIX (& Provent-a-mite) has been proven time & time again as one of the most effective treatments for snake mites whether it be precationary or for eradication. If we are talking one snake I would say go for it (treatment), but in the case of multiple snakes or a large collection ensure they are indeed snake mites before going into a state of paranoia over possibly harmless wood mites. Not worth the time & effort & stress on yourself or your collection. Cheers Mark

[gonesnakee]

http://www.albertareptilesociety.org/Caresheets/nix.pdf Oh also should mention DO NOT use NIX or any other mite treatment in the presence of Arachnoids (death to them) or amphibians (can also be fatal). Don't want to cause harm to other possible residents of ones reptile room. Mark

[gonesnakee]

Another tidbit, you don't feed live prey do you? Quite often rodents will come packing fleas which can also freak one out thinking they are snake mites. If they are snake mites assume for every one you see there are 1000 that you don't. Mark

[Herp Whisperer]

I see, you're a snake breeder- that explains alot.

As we seem to be swapping bio's, as well as mildly poking at each other with sticks, here's mine.
I earned a degree in biology with a herpetological specialization, graduating back in 1987. For ten years prior to that, I was actively engaged in catching, milking, breeding, and studying various snakes indigenous to south Texas and Mexico. I helped put myself through school by selling rattlesnake venom as well as any unusual specimens I came across. Since that time I have served as a herp consultant to two major zoos, I've operated a reptile rescue dedicated exotic snakes and monitors, I've bred various pythons and monitors, and I teach classes on reptile handling, behavior, and husbandry.
While Nix may contain the same active ingredient as PAM, there are inactive (supposedly) ingredients contained in the mix which some vets feel may be harmful, over the long term, to reptiles. The majority of breeders I know (and I know a few) no longer use the stuff. As I stated, however, it may be harmless- the point is, nobody is certain, and there are safer products available.
As for being "unable to see" mites in the earlier stages of development, I suggest a visit to your opthamologist. The larval and protonymph stages of development tend to be about 500 by 300 microns in size, and while this is small, it certainly doesn't require the services of an electron microscope to see them.
As for the wood mite vs snake mite debate- it sounded to me asif the person asking the question was, at best, a hobbiest- more likely a pet owner. I would imagine anyone owning a large collection would have seen and dealt with mites before. Therefore, the options were- 1. Ignore the situation until it worsened (if it did) 2. Catch a mite and take it to the vet for identification, or 3. simply treat the animal and enclosure (not a bad idea anyway) and be certain, without a vet bill.
Silly me, I chose to recommend option 3.
What was I thinking?

I'll try to make more responsible suggestions in the future- thank you for straightening me out, buddy.

Cheers!

JJ

[gonesnakee]

Well as far as straightening you out, obviosuly your attitude is already far beyond that. Swapping bios? I was just pointing out what is pretty much standard pratcie for most seriously involved snake folks that I know. As far as 3. simply treat the animal and enclosure (not a bad idea anyway) and be certain, without a vet bill.
Thats what should have been done when the specimen was orginally aquired & as I also suggested If we are talking one snake I would say go for it (treatment), no vets required for mite treatment, not sure where that came from, I made no mention of it. Of course continual or long term exposure to any "chemical" tpe product is a bad idea, thats why 1 simple treatment in the beginning should solve any & all problems if there are any that even exist. If you do things right in the beggining you will never have an issue. This is not a product the snake is exposed to all the time unless you are a keeper that thinks mites are a part of life & use things such as NIX, PAM & Vapona etc. all the time because of your husbandry or lack of (not suggesting that you are or anything, just generally speaking). As far as electron microscopes go just a cheap shot at myself as we all know even adult mites aren't very obvious to the average pet keeper in an enclosure thats a few inches deep in shavings. As far as looking down on someone for being a breeder, better have a little better look at ones self having collected specimens from the wild to sell for profit. I helped put myself through school by selling rattlesnake venom as well as any unusual specimens I came across. Anyhow my advice stands, despite being far less worthy than yours apparrently, you being the expert & all. I made my posts just trying to help someone out, not trying to make myslef look good or better than others, but hey each there own, whatever turns your crank. Mark
EDIT if I am taking you the wrong way I'm sorry as its hard to judge ones true personality on the net, one of its major downfalls, but Nuff Said.

[Herp Whisperer]

Ok, tone and inflection is impossible to determine in an email, so...I was looking at this as a fun and spirited debate ("poking each other with sticks") The only reason I replied to your initial comment is that you "dissed" me, to a degree, in it. I assumed that you, noting your age, could have a discussion without getting offended. I lived in Alaska for awhile, and have several close Canadian friends- I must have assumed you would respond as they would to verbal sparring. My apologies.
For the record, I wasn't making a derogatory comment on breeders- I simply meant that they (or we, as you pointed out) tend to be very opinionated and stubborn, as our posts prove out, on both sides.
As for selling wild caught species, you made an assumption there, and I was perhaps too vague. All of my "unusual" specimens were sold or donated to educational wildlife facilities, not individuals. However, it was a different time, and a vastly different world- particularly where reptiles are concerned. Every corn snake, boa, python, monitor, you name it, that you have or have had initially came from a wild caught specimen...at some point in the recent past, selling wc was acceptable, obviously. 30 years ago, few CB specimens were even available. But, the majority of my "business" in the late 70's involved selling venom for the purpose of creating antivenin.
As for our general disagreement, I never thought for a moment that I would change your thinking- only a fool enters into an argument with that goal. I am a Texan, after all- we just love to argue.

Cheers, eh?

JJ

[gonesnakee]

Cheers back & good post, I'm glad that I made my edit last post & I have to agree with most all of what you have said anyhow & will apologize again for making assumptions etc. (another big downfall of the net). Yes I can be stubborn & opinionated o> & I think we both did take each other the wrong ways in a lot of our back & forth. I'm a little tired & grouchy today after a busy show weekend (just finished setting up 80 snakes in new "houses" actually, gotta get ready to clean the collection & feed some of the lil suckers next, shows are fun, but definitely put a guy behind in the chore department). Alberta's the Texas of Canada by the way eh! So I can relate to the Texas comments & actually spent a good 1/2 year or so in Texas working the oilpatch (exploration in 93/94 I think?) Worked on the Mexican border (Laredo), central (mostly around San Angelo?) & also a lot in the panhandle. I'm usually easier to get along with anyway LOL & I also should mention that I'm very sarcastic, somewhat anally at times o> . Anyhow on the topic of mites I at one time thought snake mites were host specific (like there is 1 type specific to only snakes right?) but also thought that other "reptile mites" were specific to say only lizards etc. I am now of the understanding that there are certain host specific mites but there are also ones that will use a multitude of reptiles as hosts. What do you know about the various types of the lil blood suckers? Is this in fact true certain types are host specific & certain types are thriving off of all reptiles in general or they all one in the same? What about amphibians? I know that they aren't transferable to mammals (or is there some that are too?), but would definitely like to learn more about the various types & what "hosts" they choose. Where do the mites that pester Tarantulas fit into all of this, if you have info there it would also be appreciated by myself & all the other folks here as well I'm sure. Lets put that BIO degree to work :thumbsup: THX Mark

[Herp Whisperer]

The first guy who figures out how to show inflection and sarcasm in the typed word will probably win the Nobel peace prize! No worries, glad we worked it out. I think we'd get along wonderfully in person, we're both sarcastic bastards, lol.
I feel for you...reptile shows can be killers. I thought my days of dragging herps to shows were over, but since our return to Texas (I met and married my wife in Alaska) and my wife's conversion from a herp hater to a rabid enthusiast...(go figure) I guess we're going back into the breeding business, and opening up another rescue for giant snakes and monitors. (several local vets have indicated that there is a dire need- not as bad as the Florida keys yet, but bad enough) This means, I imagine, that I'll be headed back to the shows, to educate the public and try to make the business work.
I'm an airline pilot 12 consecutive days per month- I decided long ago that while I planned to dedicate the majority of my life to animals, that didn't mean I had to be broke! That's what you do with a bio degree and a minor in herpetology, eventually...fly airplanes. Handy if there were...Snakes on a Plane, though! lol...sorry, had to do it...weak, I know. I think I'll wait for the DVD to see that one.

Mites...as far as I know, and I have put some effort into learning about the little bastards, they are not entirely host-specific, although I believe they are either warm-blooded feeders or cold blooded. Here's my breakdown- probably arguable- of the common mites. Texts indicate that over 250 types of mites can affect reptiles, however, and I'm only familiar with about 10% of those- BUT, the following three are the only types I have ever identified on reptiles I have worked with in the US, Mexico, south and central america.

Ophionyssus natricis Snake mite, the one we all know and love- also found on some lizards/monitors

Hirstiella trombidiiformis lizard mite, I've never seen them on snakes

Siphonaptera (fleas) chigger mite, sometimes called the Iguana mite- seem to be limited to Iguanas

To the best of my knowledge, this is the distribution among hosts. Some crossover, but not both directions. Researching various papers/texts will thoroughly confuse you, as every Arachnologist seems to have a different opinion. There are reports of snake mites "infesting" humans, but it is thought that the resulting skin irritation is a result of an allergy to the mites or a substance they produce, not a result of the mites actually feeding on human blood. IMHO, the chances of a mite feeding on both ectothermic and endothermic critters is zero or close to it.
There are also roughly a half dozen types of ticks that feed on reptiles.

I've had a few tarantulas, Texas browns and pink toes, but their parasites are unknown to me. However, my partner is a self-taught arachna-guru, so I'll get his opinion and get back to you.

I worked offshore, roughneck/tool pusher, years ago- as a teenager. I pitied the poor guys working inland in the south Texas heat! Hell, I was born here and I think it would kill me- don't know how a Canadian managed!

My wife is in love with Bearded dragons, and wants to breed them...as for me, I believe I'm going to try Diamond pythons this time. (Morelia spilota spilota)
I'd really like to breed Burms and Black throated monitors again, but I can't in good conscience sell either one to the majority of the people who want to buy them. It doesn't matter how many times you inform the folks that "This snake will get to be large enough to potentially kill a human being, and will eventually need an enclosure the size of a small bedroom"...they still believe they can keep it in a one bedroom apartment, in a 30 gallon aquarium, forever. Is it me, or is the general public getting dumber...?

If you get down to South Texas, let me know- we'll do a little field herping. I've been finding grey banded kings (Blair's) and Indigos regularly (along with the always -present atrox) which is nice- before I went to AK, both were in short supply. Every time they put either on the endangered list, it makes the black market price skyrocket, and illegal demand goes through the roof.

Bedtime.

Cheers, you crazy Canuck.


JJ

[gonesnakee]

Well seeings how we totally jacked the thread already LOL Sorry bout that but we did discuss mites too. Cool I will be trying to breed my diamonds for the first time next year & will hopefully be successful with my pair of Eastern Indigos as well. I breed quite a few corns & select kings & hybrids & do breed quite a few blairs every year (work with 2.4 & have an albino female 25% ruthveni that I will try as well). Also working with Jaguar Pythons & with any luck I'll have some of those next year as well. Anyhow enough thread jacking for now, Mark
P.S. & yes its darn hot in Texas, when in Laredo the 95% humidity & the heat was killer, but the 120+ F a day in central texas was the worst, even worse then my stint in the Kalahari Desert in Botswana, Africa, well as far as the heat went anyway. We used to say "If it doesn't stick ya, stab ya or shoot ya, It ain't from Texas!"

[redtails]

I had some spider mites on my garden that came in one day after I let my burm out to roam. They were sometimes white, though usually looked like regular snake mites. weird thing is they are omnivorous I believe as they ate some of my plants, causing spots all over and poor growth. Easy to treat though with permethrin(sp?) sprays. Safe for the snake too if you get the garden veggie type.

[gonesnakee]

Same stuff is what is in PAM & NIX, Mark

[redtails]

wasn't sure cuz I've never used the stuff, but now that you mention it a buddy had some & I remember it said that on the label. I also used diluted listerene(brown unflavored) to spray my snakes and that worked, although took a couple tries.