Need info on keeping hot snakes!

[kristin21]

I'm interested in keeping and possibly breeding hot snakes to milk. I've been having trouble finding the information i need on the internet and am hoping that someone might be of assistance or know where to find above mentioned information. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated since this is something i've been contemplating and researching for several years. Thank you.

[BWSmith]

If you heve never kept venomous before, then there is no need even entertaining the idea of milking them at this point (most likely ever).

Before you keep hots:
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68577

[lubricus]

Why would you want to milk HOTs do you run a venom research laboratory? I'm sure you dont because you wouldn't be here asking such a thing!!! I f your not capable of finding ifo on how to keep venomous snakes on the internet then you definitely need to stick with corn snakes!!!!

[kristin21]

just because i'm having trouble finding information on here doesn't mean i shouldn't do it. No, i don't have a research labrotory. The reason i want to do this though is because i have a genuine love of these animals and a healthy respect for them too. And for the record i don't keep corn snakes, i keep rosy boas and used to take them around to elemntry school classes and give presentaitons on them when i, myself was still in school! My animals are my life and i want to know everything i can before venturing into something i'm unfamiliar with. That is why i am asking if anyone can help me, not for any other reason. I would hope that people could give positive advice instead of negative critisim and do nothing more than every one else does by discouraging someone who wants nothing more than to do something positve and productive. Thank you.

~Kristin~

[BWSmith]

read the book

[lubricus]

I'm interested in keeping and possibly breeding hot snakes to milk. Why on earth would you put your life on the line to milk venomous snakes!!!! maybe you should do a search on what happens to people when they are invenomated! maybe you should rethink the hole thing!!..I had some good examples for you but for some reason i cant put pics here.. OK nevermind it workedhttp://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/lubricus/untitled.jpg

[lubricus]

Ok I guess the hole milking thing made me upset.....I think that its grate that you are doing your research first. try Google you'll finde lots of good ifo that way.......this is a pic of my rhino viper a mistake with a snake like this can and probably will end your life. I WOULD NEVER MILK A SNAKE LIKE THIS......venom research labs have there own venom bank... http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/lubricus/rhino1.jpg

[kristin21]

When i was younger, I came very close to being bitten by a rattlesnake at a sumer camp. I was scared and froze until one of the counselors picked me up and shooed the rest of the group away. I know i was lucky because of the remote location of the camp and of how small and young i was. Not to mention i've been bitten by numerous spiders that created awful scars and such. Also, i did excise the wounds myself to remove the dead tissue from the brown recluse bites! I know the risks. Graphic pictures are nothing i haven't seen before. Like i said i research everthing thouroughly before i do anything! If you don't have anything helpful to say, please hold your tongue- you're not going to dissuade me!

[BWSmith]

If you don't have anything helpful to say, please hold your tongue- you're not going to dissuade me!

That is the wrong attitude to have from the beginning. Without an open mind, I fear for your safety.

[kristin21]

I'm not saying i'm ignoring the risks, simply that i'm used to being told that i can't do things either because i'm a girl or because i'm too small- that i don't have the physicall strength or whatever. I know my limitations, physicall or whatever. I'm highly intelligent and would never do anything that i deemed too dangerous or out of my reach either from skill or whatever. All i want at this point is to collect information. Thank you.

~Kristin~

[cantil]

I'm going to assume that this post is a troll but none-the-less...
1) there is an EXTREMELY limited market for venom and that market is by and large supplied by people who are already in the business (I suggest an article from Reptiles Magazine about Jim Harrisons venom lab in Kentucky if you want to do some background reading)
2)venom used for antivenin(om) must be extracted/processed/stored in laboratory conditions, setting up a lab suitable for this in all likelyhood would run in the tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars
3) if you have a genuine love for keeping and working with hot snakes the LAST thing you want to do is milk them. This is an extremely stressful and risky process which should only be done on the basis of absolute necessity... snakes will often go off food when restrained and subjected to the stresses of milking (or force feeding or anything else necessitating head restraint)
4)lastly (and again I'm assuming this post is a troll) being bitten by spiders shows a lack of caution and common sense which defies description. I know individuals with literally thousands of spiders who have never been bitten and spiders do not (generally, with the possible exception of pheuneutria spp.) pose anywhere near the husbandry challenges associated with working with many venomous snakes (if the spiders to which you refered were not part of a private collection ignore this last part :)

If the vast wealth of experience which the other individuals on this forum impart still can't disuade you, before even considering undertaking a process which requires direct physical contact with venomous snakes try to find someone experienced who can let you at least work venomous snakes in a supervised environment.

The reason we all try to disuade people from keeping these animals is that everytime someone chooses to and gets hurt it jeopardizes all of us who've been doing it for a while by way of greater restrictions or stricter enforcement of preexisting laws. If we all try to talk someone out of keeping hot snakes, and they do it anyway....well its there life and either they can cut it or they can't....but at least by evaluating their reasons for keeping these animals and, in there own head, dealing with the counter arguments we raised they'll (hopefully) be better prepared to deal with the challenges these animals present which we've already had to deal with.

[lubricus]

Awesome post cantil... Its hard to take good advice when the forum is coming down on you, Kristin you realy need to stop and take a "thought brake" take it from me that's some good advice. I hope that you still continue to have an interest in HOTs and continue to absorb all the information you can, but I dont believe your ready for HOTs at this point.

[kristin21]

Please note that my initial post said 'I am interested," not that i was planning on running out tomorrow and purchasing such an animal tomorrow. I am simply trying to gather all the information i can. All i asked for is help with that. I understand the risks involved, and really am not in need of the critisism for my asking. I don't understand why i am being regarded as someone who is acting impulsivly or some stupid kid who thinks they can just keep such an animal as a pet. I would greatly appreciate it if y'all could at least acknowledge that i am an intelligent woman who is simply trying to gather as much information as possible on this subject and would greatly appreciate any that could be given. I don't need critisim or people trying to talk me out of this. Again, this is something being CONSIDERED. Thank you.

~Kristin~

[Iggy&Roxi]

Well Kristin,
You've definitly handled yourself quite well considering all the negativity you've gotten for your inquiry. These people are only looking out for whats best, and yes, they are sometimes quick to assume the worst. Your best bet is to just look on the net as best as you can and go from there. These guys will never agree with you because they are aware of the dangers, as I'm sure you are. The Lord only knows why on earth you would ever want to do it anyway, but hey to each his own.
Chao

[lubricus]

The hole milking a venomous snake-thing was the red-flag!!! Maybe if you take the time to review this thread, you'll see you were given some guidance as to where to search for your information! did you really think that you were going to be coached over the internet on HOW TO KEEP HOTs!!!? I already told you your not ready yet not even close, that's not a bad thing it just means you need to do a lot more research. pleas reread Cantils post, well your at it reread this hole thead!!!!

[kristin21]

No, i didn't expect to be coached over the internet, but i don't know where to look for this sort of information, and was given the idea of milking them from my FATHER! And i've read the WHOLE thing (fyi- "hole" is what you call a portion of something that's missing, "whole" is used in regards to an entire entity) I take offense that no one is reading what i've written totally. I NEVER tried to say i was in any way ready to keep these animals! Just collecting information. Please keep that in mind when you decide to be so negative towards me! Thank you.

~Kristin~

[lubricus]

Thank-you for the spilling correction. Ill probably never make that mistake again;)

[kristin21]

That wasen't meant to be rude. I am simply detail oriented and like things to be done correctly. I try to the best of my ability to plan out every single thing about anything i do. I never simply jump into anything without knowing what i'm getting into or weighing the risks vs. the rewards. Had anyone given me the benifit of the doubt or taken the time to ask, they would know that. All i want is to collect information and i've been treated as though i'm plotting some heinous act. I deserve better than that i belive. I would appreciate at least some common courtesies that i have always strived to provide to others. Thank you.

~Kristin~

[BWSmith]

For the time being, I would suggest to just concentrate on learning about venomous species and how to safely maintain them. And in 5 or 10 years, when you have some experience, then you can look into opening a lab if it is still something you would like to persue.

[ChurleR]

I've skimmed this thread in its entirety and I have yet to see WHY you want to milk the snakes.

No research facilities will accept venom from anyone without excessive lab credentials, nor will you be able to do anything with it since you don't have the proper equipment.

As for your physical limitations, no human has the reaction time to avoid a bite from a coiled viper unless they see the premeditation in the snake.

This ranged from small eye twitches in Gaboons to full out S-coils in rattlesnakes.

Good luck and all, but I think your latest obsession might be a bit of a lost cause.

[kristin21]

This has nothing to do with something being a "latest obsession"! That implies that i am some impulsive person who changes their intrests capriciously. When, in fact, i have had the same intrests since i was 11 or 12 in junior high. Something that someone has tried to plan on and/or research for a decade can hardly be classified as a "latest obsession." Thank you.

~Kristin~

[Phoenix]

Ok… first, welcome to the site! There are lots of people here who are the experts in their field who are open and willing to talk to people and give helpful advice (or cations).

Second, your original post is asking for information and help finding information on venomous snakes. Ok. It’s already been suggested to Google the query, read the books on the matter, look into the Reptiles magazine’s articles on the topic, spend time with people who are widely acknowledged experts in the field and research and gain experience for 5 to 10 years before starting. I also suggest reading all the good information on this site and similar forum sites where the keepers themselves are the ones talking. Private message them, or e-mail them with questions about how they got into the field, what they keep, how they do it, what they do with the snakes, what the paper work is to legally have them, etc. If you want references to special sites that are recommend, I sure people will gladly link you. If you want Google ideas, we will gladly offer some. If you are looking into a certain breed, go ahead and ask questions about it. We want to help educate people about the snakes and as some members have said, we are glad that you are doing research first. It’s fantastic that you have been looking, and if you are stuck, we can probably help. It’s part of why we are here.

Now for the tricky part….
This is a really heated discussion and you are doing very well at staying calm under what could be seen as a critical attack. But please, realize that we are trying to help you, even if that means telling you something that you didn’t ask for. You came and asked for information. You got people telling you not to do something. That can be hard. But please, remember that we are reacting to what you put, and that some things may get a quick reaction from people who are worried for you. If you had posted your original question without the words “to milk”, the reaction you got would have been very different. Because we are talking about snakes that can kill you, or in the very least, make you wish you were dead, any conversation about starting out has to include a lot of warnings. Everyone hears all the horror stories about people doing things with snakes, and all the stories of the poor folks who make fatal errors in the field or in judgement. We don’t want this to happen, obviously, and so people may get a little worried when the topic comes up. So, please, bear with us.

And let me take a moment to say that we are not suggesting or stating that you are a moron, unintelligent, too small or the wrong sex to do something. You are trying to educate yourself, that’s fantastic, and size and sex has nothing to do with keeping hot snakes. I’m a small female and I’ve found that fellow herpers delight in the idea of women getting involved. There aren’t enough, so many encourage it. If you’ve encountered sexism outside the field, that’s another sad issue.

What we are saying is that the idea of milking snakes is something that you should not focus on right now. Again, we are only able to react to what you put, and to our other experiences, so when you mention a hot button issue that that, while saying that you are a beginner, it sets off alarm bells. You have not said why or exactly what you would like to milk. You have not said what you would do with the venom. All that you have said is that you are researching it and that your father suggested it. We have said that it is highly dangerous, difficult, stressful for the snake, and best not attempted. Again, if you want information on snakes, I’m sure people will gladly help you out. However, people have given you information and advice on milking, and the advice is to forget about it for a while. B.S. Smith’s posts are extremely good examples. He said to stay away from milking for a while and he gave to a reference to his book on venomous snakes to help in your quest for information.

All in all, I hope that this helps to clarify what is happening here. I think we all want what is best for the snakes and the people working with them. And I wish you the best of luck as you continue your life with herps!

[SCReptiles]

Sorry you had to deal with the normal negativity that comes from reptiles keepers. It’s bad to begin with, but gets worse when you ask questions about the specialty fields like venomous and endangered species.

As best I can tell, thus far I am the only one to respond that actually does venom production. I have a sizable collection of southeastern pitvipers and perform venom extractions when there is a cause to. As for me, I got started about 5 years ago. A grad student at Auburn university contacted me wanting to buy copperhead venom for research he was doing. I was unable to provide that service to him, but I did sell him several copperheads and he tracked down someone at the university to extract the venom for him. So, after that, I decided since I already had the animals, I should learn to do extractions. I came up against the same problems you are now, there is little information out there and the people that know are not interested in sharing. I had talked with Ray Hunter and since he was a fellow Christian, I figured he would be more apt to help me out and he did. I picked his brain for info, then I drove down to South FL and worked with him in person. He showed me all I needed to know and I took it from there. For those that do not know, Ray was trained my Bill Haast himself!

I then checked with the FDA as there is a lot of speculation as to what is legal and what is illegal as far as the sell. The FDA has no bearing on venom production unless, it’s going to be used directly in the production of a medicine, or if it will be used in human testing. You are perfectly legal to sell venom to anyone for animal research or any other type testing. If you are looking at this as an income, I would try to dissuade you. The demand is just not there. Harrison, Haast, and VanHorn are turning this stuff out in large quantities and they more then meet the limited demand. If you want to keep the snakes for the enjoyment of that, and occasionally sell some venom to help offset the cost of keeping them, then you will be happy. If you intend to turn a profit, you will be very disappointed. Before you ever attempt to put your bare hands on a snake, you need to track down someone who is experienced with extractions and work with them. I am sorry, I do not know anyone in TX currently doing it. If you want to come to GA on vacation, I will be happy to teach you….or if you ever travel to FL, I will be happy to give you my contacts there. If you have specific questions, feel free to email or call me. I rarely come to this site any more, all the negativity drags me down. Info@TriStateHerp.com or 423.580.7513.

As a starting point, buy this book, venomous reptiles by Minton, and read it cover to cover. It covers all the basics of extractions and venom production.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0684166267/qid=1138316323/sr=8-7/ref=xs_ap_bun7_xgl14_a//104-5118506-5711139?condition=all

Good luck to you! -----Chuck

[jaracas]

IMO, without going the graduate route, if i were you i would find your nearest Lab and ask about volunteering, you may start off making coffee but you will get a good, 'hands-on' experience into how a lab is run and eventually, maybe get 'hands-on' experience with the livestock.
Also, in a good lab, if you show keenness and a willingness to learn without being careless they may be willing to give you formal academic qualification training.

i did a quick Google and came up with this
http://tamusystem.tamu.edu/univ/tamukfact.html

not that close to you but if you are serious about your dream then the distance wont be a problem

also look in the yellow pages, ask at the hospital, pest control companies (these are a good bet as some take captured snakes to labs)

[Reticsrule]

i think before you think about extracting venom, you should learn to work with venomous snakes. you need to be able to use hooks, tongs, catchboxes, etc. correctly as they can easily save your life at times. i highly recommend BW's book. i ordered it a few months ago and im extremely pleased with the contents. it tells you everything you need to know about keeping venomous snakes. good luck:)

[Ms. Gadsden]

Right, or even some ball & tip sexing probes. :D

Seriously, Your cage is very important, giving you a cutting edge of safety feeding and cleaning.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76814

[kristin21]

Did this last person even read any of what was written?

[Mustangrde1]

I have some questions to ask.. I briefly reviews this thread so if they are already answered forgive me.

How long have you kept / worked with venomous?

What species have you worked with?

what species are you wanting to work with and do venom extractions on?

Why are you wanting to do venom extractions?

Is it even legal for you to own venomous in your state and county.


I can and have done venom extraction, As Chuck pointed out however the demand is being met very well by others already and unless you have the funds to set up a full production facility including the santary conditions needed to ensure pure untainted samples of venom you will not be selling any. You are putting your life and figure on the line... Being present for several envenomations I can tell you IT IS NOT PLEASANT the after math especially in vipers is very distructive on the tissue.. along with the other side effect of DEATH its not a plesant thought.

If your interested in keeping hots by all means get trained and learn to keep them and enjoy them..