re: breeding

[orion_dv8]

Dang its hard to find literature on breeding IJ's, I just want to make sure, after a succesful mating is observed, i should resume regular heat and feeding schedule?
Am i correct in this, also is ovulation a sign of successful pregnancy or should the female mate again after ovulation is observed? and last anyone need to make us of an IJ male in the Ottawa area, he is really a gem 50/50 :) any takers?
cheers
ORION

[gonesnakee]

Keep introducing/cycling them for breeding, 1 breeding is not enough to ensure she is gravid, the more breedings the higher the fertility of the eggs will be. Ovulation is no indication of a successful breeding, females can ovulate without ever being in with a male. If she doesn't ovulate the breedings will not be successful, but ovulation doesn't mean she's gravid for sure. Mark

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ovulation IS the FERTILIZATION and movement of eggs into the oviduct. More breeding isn't going to do squat after ovulation, impossible.

But ONE breeding isn't going to ensure ovulation and one breeding isn't going to ensure SUCCESSFUL ovulation (ie. fertile eggs).

I breed my Carpets for THREE months before turning the heat back on and offering food. But most of the feeding was done prior to breeding and during breeding. Its almost too late to feed after the warm up.

[orion_dv8]

That is the straight forward answer i was lookin for thanks Jeff, i just get so mixed up with all the terms and conflicting info, my girls look nice and plump and have fed well prior to cooling so i am not really worried i was more just curious in case i shuld be feeding em during the egg formation stage, i have already started to warm them and they have mated several times with the male each, another question though once she is gravid (if) will she then lose interest in the male or will she continue to mate even if shes fertilized?
cheers
ORION

[Jeff_Favelle]

No worries man!! You are now entering the FUN part of snake-keeping!! ;)

The male is the one who is interested or not interested and he will MOST DEFINITELY lose interest in the waning hours (sometimes sooner) leading up to ovulation. The females stop producing phermones for reception and its all up to her now. The male will look for another female, then eventually stop looking altogether and be interested in food again.

Its really fascinating stuff!

[orion_dv8]

Hey man thanks alot for all the information its always good to get the info from one of the authorities :) so for now fingers are well crossed, it really was fascinating i know it sounds silly but i never thought id make it to this point even, i cant wait till i get to the next stage.
cheers
ORION

[orion_dv8]

I know these pics suck but its late ill try to get better ones of all the girls tomorrow and the boy too.

this first one is the big girl she is substantially fatter right due to hopefully a nice clutch in her, she was roughly 6.5 - 7' at last measure and she has the girth of a pop can.
http://www.twocanadas.com/albums/userpics/Snakes%20and%20Crested/normal_IMG_3260.JPG

this next pic is a not so good rendering of my breeder male, he is super docile and as i found out this year quite the active breeder, its his first year and mine so fingers crossed that he has performed his duties well, its funny because he is a fraction of the size of the big female, at first i did not think it was going to work lol.

http://www.twocanadas.com/albums/userpics/Snakes%20and%20Crested/normal_IMG_3268.JPG

actually that leads me to another question which is relative fertility of males in their first year of breeding? have you noticed any differences with a second season male, as opposed to a first timer?
cheers
ORION

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great pic!!!!! :D

Males? Nah, they are all good to go. I've seen 'em go at 18 months and knock up 3 girls. As long as they are cycled, 1st season, 10th season, I doubt it matters!

Best of luck! :-)

[gonesnakee]

I guess I'm confused here some? So they can't actually ovulate without a breeding then? So in the case of a young female never being bred, but laying a clutch of infertile eggs she never ovulated??? I always thought ovulation was mainly the movement of the eggs down to the oviducts whether they had been fertilized or not? Not that I'm any authority or anything :o Mark

[orion_dv8]

once again i find myself a bit confused because that as well is what i always thought, the snake brumates -> ovulates (produces follicles) -> breeds -> fertilizes -> eggs develop -> then lays its eggs. I guess it comes down to semantics as to what we are taking ovulation to mean. The nomenclature is a little bit confusing plus finding any books on breeding morelias is an uphill battle at least i havent found any. If anyone has any recommendations, im all ears as they say. Another thing that im not sure of nor can i find much reference is the size of the eggs at laying, and then at hatching. I assume there is a huge increase, i just cant figure how big my big girl is and a clutch being 15 eggs? i dont know if that made any sense.
cheers
ORION

[Jeff_Favelle]

So they can't actually ovulate without a breeding then?

No one said that.

THIS is what I said:

But ONE breeding isn't going to ensure ovulation and one breeding isn't going to ensure SUCCESSFUL ovulation (ie. fertile eggs).

Of course a female can be induced to ovulate and lay infertile eggs (slugs). Heck, my monitors do it all the time. So do my Hondurans for their 2nd clutches. Its just not as common in Carpet Pythons and really wasn't part of what he was asking. Ovulation RESULTS in the eggs being fertilized and I was giving him the timing of the events as he didn't know whether to keep breeding after ovulation or not. ;)

snake brumates -> ovulates (produces follicles) ->

No no no no no no. Ovulating is NOT producing follicles. Producing follicles happens like 2-3 months before that! Ovulation is the SINGLE time when you can count from when you're actually going to get eggs. That and the POS (post ovulation shed). IT IS NOT THE PRODUCTION OF FOLLICLES. I'd be interested in what book you have that said ovulation was the production of follicles. I say we get that author and have a weeenie roast! LOL!

IJ sometimes have smaller clutches. But 15 it possible. I have two big Jungle females that have both laid 26 and 28 in consecutive years. I even have a small girl that laid 24! But.........you get what you get, no matter how much you wish for more.

[orion_dv8]

LOL ok, no i guess it was just my misunderstanding, i have yet a lot to learn which im sure after my first year of breeding i will get a much better handle on, well it seems a book on Morelia breeding is in order, we should get together and write a comprehensive book on the subject and for that matter more specifics of care. It is truly a fascinating genus, as for the book i am using, its old, and it does not give specifics merele talking about reproduction in Diamond pythons, calling them Python spilotus. Always good to get set straight and be ready for a couple more questions from my end.
cheers
ORION

[Jeff_Favelle]

Python of the World Vol. 1: Australia by Dave and Tracy Barker. Best book out there. Tells you all you need to know.

And yes, after breeding, you will understand the chronology of things. Trust me, it becomes WAY clearer! LOL!

:D

[gonesnakee]

Your wording got me LOL It is pretty rare for a Carpet or any Python just to slug out I would say also. I don't think I've ever heard of a Carpet laying eggs without being introduced to a male. Colubrids do so all the time, but I don't think I've ever heard of a Python doing so. Have you Jeff? Like sure they may slug out, but have you actually ever heard of one slugging out without any breeding attempts? Mark

[Jeff_Favelle]

You know Mark, I think I've heard of it, but it was just heresay and no one I actually knew personally. So I'm not sure. I always thought breeding INDUCED ovulation, but as a process ENTIRELY WITHIN the female, I don't see why it couldn't happen all on its own. Just rare, like you said. But they do slug out. Incompatibility, male infertility, bad timing for breedings, etc etc. It happens (hopefully not to us and not often if it does! ;))

But yeah, my stupid Hondos do it all the time. Like the skinny females that you don't want to lay a 2nd clutch that go ahead and do it anyways? LAME! LOL!

Happy breedings. Now I'm all paranoid about slug-fests, thanx!

[orion_dv8]

How big are the eggs when they come out? are we talking golf ball size? or bigger? just curious also do females swell significantly when the eggs are produced?
cheers
ORION

[Jeff_Favelle]

Bit bigger than golf balls.

[orion_dv8]

so a small update i am coming up on what i hope is a prelay shed, consistent with the copulation day approx 20 days ago, so fingers crossed. I guess its time to bust out the old incubator :) for the nestbox what is the preffered substrate and should i put it directly above the basking spot?
cheers
ORION