View Full Version : Fancy Rat Breeder looking for "Feedback"
TessMillerDT
12-07-05, 10:30 AM
My name is Tess M. Miller, and I've been working almost 6 years as a Fancy Rat breeder, just recently entering the world of professional breeding and showing. Since I'm relatively new to the breeding scene, I'm running into a lot of new opinions from long time breeders and judges. I've noticed that the one thing that everyone seems to agree on, is the absolutely gross living conditions in Wholesale Rodent Manufacturers (or "Rat Mills"). If you don't know what one is (or if you care) you can check out what I'm specifically talking about at (http://pawofjustice.org/index.php?cat=11)
Anyways, the rats are raised in mills that produce up to 100,000 a month to sell to petstores, zoos & independant buyers. These animals live an awful life. So breeders specifically don't support this trade by not visiting petstores of major chains, and encouraging their adopters to do the same. However, the one thing that bothers me about this argument is that we also do not sell our own stock as feeders, we are fitfully against it, and will never sell to a reptile owner.
I'm currently writing an article called Breeders & Feeders: Are we making the problem worse? Where I bring up the idea that the animals from our litter that are not part of our breeding programs, might be used to sell to herpe owners as a way to cut down mill demand. By telling herpe owners that they cannot adopt from us, we are basically saying your options are to go to a petstore, and buy a mill rat, and support the industry. Even those of you who breed most likely bought your breeders from a petstore, therefore supporting the mills. If we really wanted this to stop, we would do something about it and live up to our argument. We argue that all rats (even if they are food) should be given a good life up until that point. So why don't we offer that good life, instead of closing doors and creating more mill demand?
So before I post this article to the rat community (which will probably crucify me for suggesting it) I wanted to get any feedback I could from actual herpe owners and breeders. If you have the time, please let me know:
How often do you purchase feeders, and it what quantity?
If you breed your own feeding stock, do you offer them a good quality of life before feeding?
Even though your love is in snakes, do you not think that rodents deserve proper housing and care (not in a mill)?
If breeders of quality Fancy Rats began to offer their stock as feeders, would you purchase them and play your part to lessen the demand of rat mills?
Thanks for any info that you can provide!
NocturnalBC
12-07-05, 11:37 AM
lol..You posted this on a snake forum?
Anyway, feeders are bred to be fed, they get the best possible food and live in clean housing. What more do you want?
TessMillerDT
12-07-05, 11:45 AM
Of course I posted this on a snake forum, I have to know how snake breeders feel about this.
Of course feeders are bred to be fed, it's not like snakes can eat Purina BoaChow or anything! lol
But the simple truth is that wholesale manufacturers DON'T provide their "product" with clean housing and good food. In fact it's just the opposite, they are given inadequite food and a completely improper diet, and live in horribly unsanitary and unsafe housing that causes many animals to die.
It would be like a wholesale snake breeder (which I'm sure doesn't actually exist) tossing 50 snakes in a galvanized cage made for two snakes total, and feeding them ground beef.
My question is, if you could support a better quality of life for the rodents raised as food, and the only effort on your part would be to buy from a breeder as opposed to a petstore, would you support the effort?
End Times
12-07-05, 11:50 AM
I'd buy from a "rat breeder" if they'd sell to me. You are what you eat I suppose, and I'd sooner feed healthy, well fed, prey items than not.
Even locally, though, in my small city, you see classified adds where people are breeding rodents and right in their add they'll say "NOT FOR FEEDERS!!!" so, like you said, I go to the pet store.
TessMillerDT
12-07-05, 11:59 AM
Even locally, though, in my small city, you see classified adds where people are breeding rodents and right in their add they'll say "NOT FOR FEEDERS!!!" so, like you said, I go to the pet store.
Thanks for the feedback! Do you mind if I use this quote in my article? This is exactly the hypocrisy that I'm trying to work towards ending (in my personal rat community), the idea that we want breeders to stop supporting mills, but unless you breed your own feed what choice do you have? You would have to be crazy to waste your time filling out contracts and paying $30.00 a rat.
NocturnalBC
12-07-05, 12:08 PM
Like End Times has said, For sure those who buy feeders, their 1st choice would be a local breeder but that is not always an option. You do what you have to do to feed your pets.
TessMillerDT
12-07-05, 12:29 PM
Completely understandable. I would do anything for my pets, as soon as you take a life into your home you should do whatever is best for them. I'm just trying to get a better idea of wether or not you as a breeder/owner of a snake, would take any action to better the lives of other animals (after your own of course).
End Times
12-07-05, 01:25 PM
Yeah, you can quote me on that, I don't mind. And yes, I would treat prey animals humanely whilst in my care. I try to always feed Frozen Thawed rats, but one snake in particular just will not take them so is fed live at this time.
Another way for you to look at this would be that as snake lovers, even if we HATED rodents with a passion and for some reason could care less how they were treated when alive, the majority of us would likely still treat "feeders" well as we want our snakes to have quality food. Diseased, malnourished rodents would never be on the menu for a responsible snake keeper. I guess what I mean is, even if we had no love of rats, we would still treat them well for the sake of our snakes. Make sense?
TessMillerDT
12-07-05, 02:51 PM
If it's not a bother. I would like to actually post my article (or send it to someone) when it's written. Before it goes out to those I know, I really want to make sure I don't misrepresent the reptile community.
I think a lot of people aren't going to come out and say it, but the deciding issues are pragmatic ones. If this is surplus, how reliable is the supply going to be? How are you (not "you" per se, but ethical rat breeders in general) going to compete on price? Many people will pay the best price without any concern for the ethics involved. A significant minority may pay a slightly higher price for an ethically produced product. A very small group will pay whatever it costs to take the high road.
For me, supply reliability, quality and price are the most important factors. I am concerned that the feeders be treated humanely, but I'm not going to pay twice the price for it.
So, to answer your actual questions.
- I buy about 800 rodents (rats and mice) per year. When available, I buy about 200 at a time.
- I dont breed feeders and only buy frozen so Q2 is not applicable.
- If fancy rat breeders want my business, they need to compete on availability, quality and price. If they hit the ball-park on all three, I would choose them over vendors that provide less humane conditions.
For the record, many feeder companies seem to do a pretty good job though.
Bluzmn59
12-07-05, 03:25 PM
I am an animal lover and I am married to a veterinarian. We have, in addition to our snakes, a tortoise, a parrot, 2 cats and 3 dogs. Clearly, we do not like supporting anybody who mistreats animals in any way. Also, as pointed out above, a healthy, well-nourished prey animal is desireable. However, I do not have the time, space nor frankly, the inclination, to raise my own rats for feeding purposes. In addition, I need less than twenty rats per month and I need them in three different sizes. I feed frozen/thawed. Clearly, raising my own makes no sense. What, then, are my options? I buy what is available at a reasonable cost and I get them from a local reptile swap meet. If those come from a mill, I really have no other reasonable choice.
Bluzmn59
12-07-05, 03:27 PM
rrrr's post went up while I was typing my previous post. I could not agree more. I would pay a slight premium to support ethical treatment, but will not double my cost, let's say.
End Times
12-07-05, 03:33 PM
Good points by all. I'm surprised I failed to mention the whole cost+quality+supply reliability issue. I wouldn't be paying $10 per rat when it's just food. Also, to keep my loyalty, they'd have to have rats available whenever I'd have need, and not pull "come back next month, I should have more by then..."
Ciddian
12-07-05, 08:40 PM
I think that is the problem.. demand and price. You can procide a good quality of life but how much more would that cost? Please dont read me wrong...but i just see buyers just naturally going to the cheapest seller.
I know we sometimes have an issue with supply and demand in the summers here.. i know we had troubles getting animals at my old pet store job.
I do care for my pet rats and feeder rats greatly... but being myself i dont want to get attached to my feeder animals... because then i wont feed them! lol I'll fall in love. ^^
I have rescued 6 rats from my store and tried to save a few pups and fuzzies.. I still have two left and that was 5 or 6 years ago.
It would be great if breeders would wholesale thier stock that isnt desirable for breeding. I am sure it would take a lot of weight off of the breeders as well...less space needed and such.
I did notice as soon as i adopted a wonderful adult corn snake i became a "horrible and uncaring person" in the eyes of rat keepers and breeders. I think that is a closeminded thought. I mean... A Rat lover, might not be fond of snakes...would they all be so kind to a garder snake discovered in thier basement? I dont know... and thats the problem. There is missing respect on both sides..
I only feed frozen thaw and am happy to say i got my corn off of live (not hard..lol She'll eat anything) lol But there are snakes out there that are not and might never take sucha thing. So... good quality breeders need to understand that.
I dont know if i made any sense.. But i took a long long time reading the site and had my eyes opened just a bit more. I think i looked away up to this point because i care so much about the rats/feeders... But its just a part of life when owning a snake or another rat eating herp.
I think we should treat every feeder well, no matter what it is. Chickens, cows.. what have you. I've had people in our old shop that would place a live rat in a bag and smash it off a table.. Let me tell you, there are places for that and in front of me in plain few was not one of them. I cant always control what happens to the rats both bred for pets and for feeders as soon as they leave the shop. Unfortunatly..
Sorry.. I'll stop my rant here ^^
~*jessica*~
peterm15
12-07-05, 09:31 PM
personally would i buy a fancy rat that was bred to be a pet for a feeder.. No. plain and simple.. would anyone buy a lap dog to feed to a burm. i doubt it.
now. i would like to know that the feeders that im buying are taken care of and the short time they have here there well taken care of...
and i certianly agree with something that was mentioned above.. would a fancy rat breeder hesitate to cut a garter snake in half in crawling around there living room.. some may but i doubt all.. you really have to look at the hole picture... when people learn to care for all animals as a hole they will learn to care properly for there own..
i do think what your saying is a great point and even if just for health rats should be cared for properly.. but the only way youll get me buying rats off of a fancy breeder is if there bred for feeders.. thats it... i will not buy a fanvy rat as a feeder.. and that is why i ONLY feed frozen.. ill do anything possible to feed frozen.
i agree with your cause and i wish you well.. i hope yuo can stop cruilty all to animals.. but if yuor going to do that id suggest staying away from PETA.. there a bunch of.. well ill get cencored so theres no point.. just remember that they do not agree with ANY captive animal.. even rats.
I have been breeding rats for about 9 years now and i suppply a great many as feeders and and pets at pet stores and i assure you that my rats and mice have a very good life while they are alive and are fed only the best of foods.
I feed these animals to my own snakes as well and only want the best for them. Also I rely on the money made from them to keep my reptile hobby alive so only the healthiest of animals are kept for breeding.
The opinion that rats are living and breeding in these appauling conditions are just that (opinions). Its just not profitable to have sick and unhealthy rats in a breeding colony as they breed like crap and will eat the babies if they do.
TessMillerDT
12-08-05, 09:37 AM
Again thanks for all the input, and honestly if you have the room for it breeding your own stock sounds like it's the best plan (for those of you that need that many animals to feed).
Yes, being able to sell the stock we don't "need" for breeding would give us more space, but that really isn't much of a concern. Every breeder that I know personally (about 26) never has a litter unless (a) There is too much interest in it and there are more babies reserved for pet homes than a litter could provide, or (b) we have enough room to keep all of the babies if there is no interest. In my personal experiance I've never had too many, or had trouble finding homes for any of them, but I'm sure it does happen to smaller breeders. But then we step into the irresponsible breeders, you shouldn;t breed if it's too expensive for any unexpected outcomes.
You can procide a good quality of life but how much more would that cost?
As far as this one goes, I really never expect to make money off of anything I do with my rats. I spend an average of $600 a month raising my litters and keeping my animals. I NEVER make money and anyone who does is doing something wrong! lol. But really, selling the "undesirables" as feed isn't about making any profit off of it, it's about the goal behind lowering the demand to mill bred rats. And I'm not talking about ending it, there's too much to end it all, but anything is an achievment.
If breeders were to sell their stock as "feeders", I doubt the prices would be higher. For example, our most desirable exotic types can be sold at prices from $20-$40. But when we have standard animals, we sell them for about $10, and the older retired breeders are sold for around $5 or given away to good homes. Even selling a whole litter at $40 a peice doesn't bring in profit, and doesn't come close to covering living costs. At my local petstores the rats are sold for about $5 a peice, and I can't see charging more than that for feeder rats myself, if I as a breeder expected to encourage herpe owners to buy from me.
You are right about supply of course. I've read how many litters feeder breeders (even responsible ones) pop out of their females, and it really goes against what is healthy for the mother rat. When you are breeding for the prolonged health and weight of a show winning female, you are going to have only three litters in her whole life. She cannot be bred until at least 6 months of age, and should stop breeding by 1 1/2. These are completely different standards than feeder breeders, simply because our first concern is the health of the mother, and the higher expectations of the babies to grow large and live long.
At my local petstores the rats are sold for about $5 a peice, and I can't see charging more than that for feeder rats myself, if I as a breeder expected to encourage herpe owners to buy from me.
Ahh...but pet store prices aren't even close. Rodentpro for example charges no more than $3 for any rat. and for that price you get a 1lb+ rat. A standard rat, full grown (275-375 grams) from them is only $2. They make a profit at these prices, and by all accounts, the product is of the highest quality. They use CO2 for euthanizing the animals humanely, and I have yet to hear one complaint about their practices.
I admire your zeal for reducing "rat mill" business, but you actually need to compete with good guys like Rodentpro.
TessMillerDT
12-08-05, 11:21 AM
Understandable, I mean honestly if I decided to cull, giving the rats away would matter nothing to me, cause like I said $5 won't even make a dent in expenses.
The thing is I understand buying from a private breeder isn't going to be an option for large scale breeders who need to purchase rats by the hundreds every month. But for the small breeder and individual owners who only need a few rats a week or month, we may be a good option since they don't have to buy in bulk to begin with.
TessMillerDT
12-08-05, 11:25 AM
Just out of curiosity, how do I see how they actually raise and house the animals at Rodentpro? The site says they are laboratory tested for health and quality, but what do they feed them, how many do they keep to a home, what type of beddng....etc.
Do I just not see the link?
You professonal breeders would not even put a tiny dent in the feeder breeder market with your breeding practices, so keep your rats for pets as what you are suggesting will have zero impact.
The big guys produce 100,000 rats per month because they are already sold as feeders.
I love snakes and i will only feed them the highest quality feeders no matter if they are my snakes or my customers snakes.
peterm15
12-08-05, 03:34 PM
you must understand that your rats will of course have better quality conditions than rodentpros.. and the pictures you see on PETA s site is probably the only one like that.. anyone who breeds for feeders most likely own snakes.. and nobody in the right mind would feed rats living in thoes conditions to the snakes... so.. with feeders you not gonna get the greatese quality bedding.. or the "proper breeding ages" ect ect. but you will get the healthiest food possible... when the feeders are healthy so are the snakes.. for the feeders TO be healthy they have to be brought up in good conditions.....
many of these large scale breeders have automatic feeders and waterers.. running straight off their tape.. waters always clean.. foods always fresh.. ect ect.
Ciddian
12-08-05, 05:13 PM
I personally have no problem choking out bad mill breeders... I think you will be able to tell by the rats/mice themselves too.
As peter said before, you want quality food going into your pet.. not malnurished and near death feed.
So when i find a feeder supplyer that has clean, healthy looking animals that are put down humainly i stick to them. I have a supplier like that and i couldnt be happier.
If i could find a breeder with fresh rat pups, killed for me preferably and humainly i will buy.
Those people are just hard to find... And i dont mind going a bit out of my way to help.
But the point that was brought up before... I think a lot of us who feed frozen buy a lot at a time, and i just dont think a professional breeder would have that to give up.
I think every little bit helps, but these mills are so large it makes it so difficult to think that we could hinder thier business in any way ~_~!
-okapi-
12-08-05, 07:12 PM
I love rats, they are the same thing as a cat or a dog to me. At the shelter where I interned during high school I was exposed to every thing from dogs, to cats, to pythons, to rats. I am in college right now to become a vet. Whenever I bought frozen rats (which was only when we had a burm at the shelter) from a local pet store, they always seemed in good health before they died, and ive worked around alot of sick animals so I would know if they were in good condition. However that website was pretty gross. When I keep snakes, I will breed my own rodents. That way I wont have to buy the sick, overbred, under fed, retired breeders from mills.
peterm15
12-08-05, 08:35 PM
ok im gonna repeat this for like the 1000th time.lol.... that picture and site is from PETA.... do you think these are ppl you can really trust... they dont even want us to own snakes....
ill give you a story about these kind of groups..
a bunch of newfies a long time ago were reamed on for the pratcice of seal hunting.. green peace took a graphis documentry where certian people were paid a good chunck of money to inhumainly and butaily kill baby seals.. the people paying were green peace.... granted the money didnt have to be taken but when you see how and on what some newfies live on.. youd understand.. these are the "anit-hunting" activists that are out there.... im personally not a hunter nor can a bring myself to kill any animal in an inhumain way... but i dont trust these Green Peace groups and PETA as far as i can throw them...
dont fall into the propaganda bull crap that you see on there websites... there a bunch of 2 bit idiots that wouldnt know the proper way to act on animal cruilty if it slaped them in the face.. handing a very graphic flyer that states " you mommy kills cute animals" to 4 year olds out in front of the ACC is not the way ( true story, its sad to see a 4 year old ballin because of the picture they put on a flyer)..
if anything we should not be supporting peta AT ALL by visiting there so called "factual" website.. at least until they change there actions.
hello just lettin u know befor u read this i can't spell worth sh-t
yes i bread my own rats for food & they r well taken care of. they r feed 6f rat food & given fresh frut & veges as well. also they r kept on aspen with a water system that give them fresh water on demand. they r kept @ a ratio of 1.3 or 1.4 in a there own room & there bins r more than large enough for them to run around and play in. when it is feeding day for my snakes the rats are gassed in small #s using Co2 and it only take about 1 min to kill them (normaly less than that) i think that the rats NEED to be well taken care of because in the end they are food for my outher pets & i dont want them getting sick or dyeing because there food is sick.
I also keep some rats as pets & i find them to be very smart (u can train them to do things just like a dog) & they r also very friendly.
hope this helps
lindsay
Ciddian
12-08-05, 10:44 PM
Good job Linds ^^ Happy to know you take the time to care for your rats :)
If i raised all of my feeders...I'd just end up keeping them as pets >.>
I had a large male rat, rescued from work and he was named wilber.. To this day people still ask of him. The most sweetest and adorable rat i've ever known. Funny to say... but he was my buddy! Took him to work, the store.. everywhere lol
TessMillerDT
12-09-05, 09:48 AM
f anything we should not be supporting peta AT ALL by visiting there so called "factual" website.. at least until they change there actions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of PETA, but the point is that those pictures on the website came from Somewhere, meaning that rodents ARE being milled, and these actions ARE taking place.
But letting go of PETA entirely, the RSA went on a visit to one of the mills in Florida recently to get a first hand look at what was going on. So this is something I've seen first hand, and I chose the Paw of Justice website because it had photos that properly illustrated the kinds of conditions that we saw there. The rats at this mill appeared healthy yes, but it didn't change the fact that they were housed on Pine bedding, and kept in unisex groups to breed consistantly, at great danger to the females.
Again, I'm not saying all places do this, and I'm not saying PETA is a good organization...but not all of their opinions and articles are bullshit, and I've seen this stuff firsthand.
I think feeders should be well cared for as in good food, clean living, etc. But feeders and breeders are different and should remain different. Breeders put effort into their lines to breed for friendly healthy, lovable pets. They are very attached to their pets I completly understand why they would be upset by the idea of an animal they raised and got emotionally attached to being killed off young. Knowing their beloved pet so and so was being used to produce feeders would upset the breeders who came before you. I am sorry to say that snake owners don't have a good reputation for humane treatment of prey items when so many horror stories fly around about kids throwing live rats in a tank just to watch the snake kill it, people whacking rats against a wall, well we all know the stories. As well rats should only be bred a few times in an ideal breeder situation as it puts strain on their resouces and can shorten their lifespan if fancy female rat is perpetually being bred to meet demand.
I personally try to strive for well cared for and humanly killed frozen prey items, and I am willing to pay a bit extra for that assurence.
What you need to focus on is educating the snake owner about rat mills and how potentially they can be a less than nutritious source of food... as another in this thread said, "you are what you eat". Trying to convince rat and mouse breeders that they should cull their litters or full out sell them as snake food should turn a pet rat buyer away from that breeder as it puts into question the breeders commitment to raising and happy, lovable pet. It comes across as cold, in my opinion.
I buy my pet rats from breeders, I buy my feeders from CLEAN well run faculties.
Well I might as well comment on this as it makes us rat breeders look like people who are out to mistreat animals. As far as Tess is going on about the use of pine and such. I know that in the long run that it can and sometime does hurt the rats respitory system but you have to take into the fact that mot feeder rats are kept for very short periods of time (excluding breeding stock) and it is not feasible to keep 10,100, 1000 cages of rats on aspen or other such hardwoods as your selling price would have to be so high as aspen and such as double to triple the price of pine. As for the keeping of mixed lot of rats together. As most breeders do you keep the young NOT YET BREEDABLE rats together as they don't bother each other and if they can’t breed who cares if you have 10 males and 8 females together as they don't bother each other.
As for myself I do breed rats. I also use pine as I got through 100-200 cubic feet of the stuff per month so I can't afford to house all my rats on aspen. Would I if I could....sure but it is not realistic to do so. All my rats get cleaned every week or every three days depending on how loading the bin is. Do I keep mixed groups together.....Yes. I haven’t had any problem with keeping large groups of mixed sexes together ever. They get along and don't kill or seem to bother each other. They usually just pile on top of each other to sleep regardless of how much room you give them. As far as caging goes. Most breeders try to use the largest pans they can while still keeping in mind space and cost. Yes big bins are great but you can’t get setting up 5x2x1 cages for every 5 rats you want to breed as you’d go broke just trying to afford the space and bins.
As far as myself. I run up to 1.6 rats per bin. I give them as much lab block as they can eat as well as fresh water giving to them off an automatic watering system plumbed off the main water line. They get changes every 3-7 days with PINE. They get chews for their teeth as well as seed or nuts when available and all extra food that isn’t going to be use (yogurt, eggs, and veggies). I leave the group intact through the 8-10 month breeding life as it causes more problem and drops production to take the male out every time the females get pregnant and Tess I do have just a bit of experience and have seen many rats to know what a healthy rats looks like as currently I’m running 60+ cages and increasing weekly.
So don’t try to give us good rat breeders a bad name based on ONE rodent breeder that you guys went to see. Take into account how many good breeders there are that you guys will never hear about. You only hear about the bad thing never the good.
Thanks
Mark
After a few years of buying feeders I become more and more unsatified with both the quality and the price so I now breed my own feeders, both Rats and Mice and I treat them just as good as all of my other pets. I don't have a huge collection of reptiles so I don't need massive numbers of feeders which allows me to do something a little different when breeding my rats. What I do is keep a much larger number of females than what I really need, this allows me to use a few males to move around from group to group so each group of females gets bred and then gets a break. Each break for a group can be as much as 3-4 months so I never have females that are worn out and develop health problems, by doing it this way I get huge litters and the babies start big and grow fast. All of my rats are kept in groups of 2-3 in bins that give them more than enough space, they are fed with Mazuri blocks along with nuts, seeds, fresh fruit and vegies and a constant supply of fresh water. I also have kept a few of my breeders as pets and all are killed using CO2.
I have no problems keeping more breeders than what I need and in above average conditions for feeder breeders if it means I continue to get the big healthy rats for my reptiles.
boidboi
12-10-05, 01:18 AM
I am sorry to say that snake owners don't have a good reputation for humane treatment of prey items when so many horror stories fly around about kids throwing live rats in a tank just to watch the snake kill it.
first just because a few stupid kids think its cool and like to show off to there friends what there snakes can do doesnt mean every one does this and there are thousands of snakes out in the world in captivity that eat live prey just for the fact that they will not accept F/T mice/rats/rabbits and it doesnt matter how much some people might object it , it is still going to happen
4 example : the last ball python i had would only eat live but i didnt sit there and watch him eat personally i did feel bad about it but it had to be done it's life things live and die and if it wasn't the rat that died in time it would have been my snake .and yes while the rats where alive in my care they had just as much care given to them as all my animals
it's not that snake owners are cold heartless people because thats the total oppisite of the truth we're just hobbists like your selfs but rather then rat or dogs we keep snakes and just like you we want the best for are pets and if that means feeding live mice or rats then it must be done
and for any body that has problem with what say im sorry its just what i think
first just because a few stupid kids think its cool and like to show off to there friends what there snakes can do doesnt mean every one does this and there are thousands of snakes out in the world in captivity that eat live prey just for the fact that they will not accept F/T mice/rats/rabbits and it doesnt matter how much some people might object it , it is still going to happen
I don't believe that is what Topaz meant, like it or not there are those people out there that get a snake just for the cool factor and do think it's cool to watch their snake kill a rodent and once again like it or not these are usually the people that film it and put it on the internet and give the hobbie a bad name. There is no implication that everyone is like this but it doesn't take much for every snake owner to be grouped together when people see and hear things like this, call it being narrow minded but that is the world we live in. I myself have had to feed live to stubborn snakes which of course I dislike doing but it is nature and as long as I'm not out there making videos to post on the internet and always trying to keep my snakes eating F/T then I'm not contributing to the bad image of snake keepers.
The only difference that should be seen between fancy rats and feeders should be that fancy rats should be handled and feeders should be frozen before being sold.
-okapi-
12-12-05, 01:28 AM
I saw your post in another feeder forum (the reptile rooms), and Im just kinda curious, what did you mean by rat breeders culling their rat's offspring to get good breeders? If it means what I think it means, why do rat breeders hate herp keepers for keeping snakes when they thenselves "get rid of" their own rats?
TessMillerDT
12-12-05, 08:13 AM
Culling: That's a good question, but honestly it was just an comment. It's very VERY uncommon for breeders to cull litters, and it's extremely frowned upon. In fact code of ethics for most clubs prohibits this practice, and normally when a breeder IS found to cull, they are pretty much shunned and avoided.
There used to be some opinions on culling that people followed. Such as the idea that ridding the mother of "undesirables" (in a breeders eye) would lighten the load on a lactating mother, and allow the other babies a great change at optimum growth. Or that it would immediatly rid your breeding lines of unwanted genetic issues. But these things are generally considered false, and I myself have never met a breeder that still encourages culling. Though it's not a GENERAL practice, there are still accounts of babies that happen to be born with a genetic problem being removed immediatly from the litter. Though this normally doesn't need to be done, as they either die on their own, or the mother will ingest it before the first feeding.
-okapi-
12-12-05, 09:24 AM
That kind of misunderstanding is why most rat breeders hate us lol.
You could put some stuff in your paper about the breeding of human food animals, such as pigs, cattle, etc, to show that the fact that "feeder breeders" overcrowding their animals and not provinging the proper care isnt just limited to "us evil herp keepers."
Good luck and I hope they dont frown upon you over this.
I only keep and breed the best possible stock, All rats or mice that are born less then perfect by my standard are used as feeders and have no chance of being breeders.
The culling of imperfect animals is also natures way.
TessMillerDT you have a very open mind compared to most fancy rat breeders and i have alot of respect for you for that, but you have come here and labeled feeder breeders based on a few bad apples. For each of the bad breeders there are probably about 100 good ones. You will find that most of the people here are passionate about all animals and not just reptiles.
TessMillerDT
12-13-05, 10:01 AM
Jayson,
I'm not talking about those who breed their own feeder stock, not at all. My remarks about feeding conditions and the like are only based on specific information and aimed at Rodent Mill breeding. I'm really not talking about owners who breed their own stock, so it's really not anyone here in particular who should feel offended by any of my opinions. I myself love ALL animals, not just my rodents, and I would expect herpe owners and breeders to be good people, and have found (for the most part) that this is true, just like with any animal community.
and thank you for the compliments ;)
-okapi-
12-29-05, 02:20 PM
Hows the paper coming? I would love to read it.
I like reading those kinda papers:
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?p=524645#post524645
See why?
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