Horned lizards?

[Ch3m1cal_x]

i saw these wonderful horned lizards in the pet store today i was fascinated. i came home to read up on them to see if i could have them... but it turns out they supozingly eat ants... is this true? any one know if i can substitute the ants with some other insect because cant ants kill a crestie? can some1 help me out?
Thanks :)

[DragnDrop]

Ants can kill any gecko if you get the 'correct' species of ants. Why would you worry about ants killing a crestie if you're talking horned lizards? There's no way you can house the two species together so that shouldn't be a problem.

Phyrnosoma can eat other bugs but apparently they do need a good percentage of ants in their diets. If I remember correctly they use the formic acid in the ants to help digest their food (or some similar strange reason, but whatever it is, if they don't get enough ants they'll starve no matter what you feed them).

[Ch3m1cal_x]

lol obviously i wont be keeping them together :S i may be beginner but im not dumb no offence... yeah i was also wondering where in toronto i could get ants to feed one if i did get it... i dont want to buy one if i cant provide what it needs to live a healthy life. yeah i found the thing about the formic acid needed for digestion on the internet... i was hopping someone on here would have some experience with them

[Ciddian]

Hello :)

I currently own two platyrhinos which is a more common horned lizard that you would find in canada. Luckily they are not too picky regarding food and will take wax worms, small mealies and the such. But they do much better with lots of smaller meals then bigger and fewer. Thats why they do so well with ants.
Now... I am unsure about the dependancy with the ants. I know they say they depend on the formic acid but i dont think that has been actually proven. (dont tell the guys in the states i said that LOL)
But ants are good if you can get them. Harvester ants are the usual and you can order them here.
http://www.antsalive.com/hornedlizard.htm
Your HL can eat about 20 ants a day...

Be careful when purchasing a HL....Some are extreamly picky and will only eat a specific type of ant. Also... keep in mind that they are not very good with handling...So if you do get one just keep that in mind.

I've had mine for about 2 years now, i adopted the second.
You can house two lizards comfortably in a 40 gallon reptile style tank :)

Please feel free to email me if you have any questions or pm...
This is an excelent site to read up on regarding thier care :)
http://www.phrynosoma.com/

Most of the top guys on there are lucky enough to have harvester mounds in thier backyards... This spring i will be trying out those large black ants we geta round here....and possibly fire, but i am not sure on that one yet.

Good luck!

[Ciddian]

Oops i forgot to mention that small crix do well too for feeding. Try to shoot for ant size.

I really wish they made a formic acid powder you could feed to the crix. LOL one day maybe. :)
Oh and what store did you see them in? I never see them...I only spot em at the reptile shows

[tupinambis]

First, I believe it is illegal to ship ants in Canada. If there were a supplier of ants within Canada, you might have a chance, but I'd be amazed if they'd ship them across the border. Have you ever ordered them, Ciddian?

Second, I've never seen my Phrynosoma eat any type of ant other than harvester. I've tried with several species, all to no avail.

I use mainly smaller arthropods (crickets, roaches, waxworms, etc.) that I supplement with formic acid. My Phrynosomids seem to do fine on this. However, formic acid is neither easy to get ahold of for the average keeper, nor is it cheap (I paid $60 for a ~ 200ml bottle).

[Ciddian]

Well from what i have been told from my only supplier is that is is legal because they do not ship any queens. Its basically a place that supplies the ants for your everyday ant farm.

I have yet to try any local ants myself... but i will give it a shot this spring and see what happens :)

Do you have a link to where you get that formic acid?
Also what kind of roaches do you use? Every time i try to get a hold of some i have legal issues. My guys do enjoy wax worms but tend to hold out for ants or small crix.

Ohhh also what kind of Phrynosoma do you have? :)

[tupinambis]

Not to argue with you, but from what I've been told, it is just plain illegal, no ifs ands or buts, because ants are seen as an agricultural pest. Trust me, I really, really want to believe you as I'd love to be able to order these things for my animals. As it is, I have to travel several hundred kms to the nearest local desert and then try hunting down a nest or two. I'm told they are illegal to ship in Canada by my entomological associates, and I'd trust they know (of course, they could still be wrong).

As for links to get formic acid, I'm afraid I don't know of any. I do research at a university, and through the university I can get whatever chemicals I need. The formic acid I ordered from Sigma. I have no idea if they'll do small orders, or any orders at all, with private citizens.

Roaches, I don't know what the species is, just that I think they're the smaller asian ones. One of the apartments I lived in was infested with the little monsters, so I started a colony from that. Otherwise, there is a professor at my university that uses them as a vector for studying parasitism, and I can get clean ones from him. Roaches I think fall under the same category as the ants do, and therefore they are just basically banned in Canada (I think).

[Ciddian]

Oohh i see.... LoL i get more flack trying to get roaches then ants.. LOL
This is the site...and they dont have any qualms shipping to me. Ok guys too.
www.antsalive.com

I was just saying to a friend that they should make a formic acid powder like they have for basically everything else lol. We dont have harvester ants around in toronto here... so its a bit of a pain... I am jealous of those people who have nests just outside in thier backyard lol.

a friend of mind in the bc area was saying he has to go a fair way to get to the dessert as well. :/ I'll be interested to see if mine will take any of the basic ants around here... and then i was curious if they would meet the same needs as the harvesters do.

I have yet to really sit down and crack some books on ants... but its definatly interesting :)
there are so many Hl's i could never keep here just because of the supply problem.. My two Phrynosoma platyrhinos are enough as it is... :)

feel free to email me if you ever wish to exchange info ^^ Ciddian@hotmail.com