View Full Version : Where did the savanah missing finger post go?
CDN COLDBLOOD
12-04-02, 10:00 AM
I don't think the missing finger post should have been erased. Let others learn from their mistakes. That's the point, right.
Jeff_Favelle
12-04-02, 10:11 AM
It wasn't taken off by a moderator Brandon. It was deleted by the person himself, from what I can see. But yes, here is the gist of it:
- Do not keep monitors on Astroturf (or ANY lizard for that matter).
- READ up extensively on any animal before purchasing.
- Monitors are NOT beginner animals.
- Even though Savannahs and Waters are cheap, resist the temptation.
Very good points Jeff .. I totally agree with you on all four points ..
Ive been reading so much - especially lately and I can tell u .. I honestly still feel like a beginer after caring for monitors for over two yeras .. The knoledge know on them is so slim..
I find the more you learn on them from books and mainly personal experience, the more confusing it becomes lol .. don't get me wrong, u learn more but realize how complicated monitor husbandry really is ..
just my .02$
Jeff_Favelle
12-04-02, 11:40 AM
I totally agree Dom. Monitors are the trickiest herps we'll probably experience in our lifetime, but also the most rewarding. They are far more advanced than any other reptile and this makes their care also more advanced. I think that they are in no way a beginner reptile and anyone who keeps lizards on Astroturf, should not be keeping lizards, let alone monitors! Another bad thing is the conflicting information that's out there. Literature is not always correct/helpful, and monitor books are no exception! There are a couple of goodies that any serious monitor keeper should have, but there's a alot of garbage out there as well that has done more harm than good.
Excellent post Dom. I totally agree. :D
i took it off because i was only asking for some help and you guys decided to bash me because im a beginner and all, dom and V.aw were very helpfull though.
the monitor was missing the toes before i got it, so that had nothing to do with me apart from the fact that i couldnt find another savannah around my area that had all its toes.
it sucks that peoples opinions differ from anothers so much that it is damn near impossible to find the right answers if you dont know what you are looking for.
thanks for the info though.
I have to side with you on that one Norman .. there is getting to be far too much jumping down peoples throats here. Opinions are fine, but the holier than thou attitude I've been seeing lately is getting a bit tired.
Norman:
I know it isn't your fault that the monitor has some missing toes but the problem is that the majority of ppl do not care for monitors correctly. i know this is generalizing but i beleive this to be true.
Don't get me wrong there is a huge lack of info and the one that is available is conflicting info so beginers are trully not helped out.
On an other note..
I find it also very tricky to give out medical help without seeing the animal .. I can tell u, first of all i am not qualified as many others, and even if I was, without seing the animalin question, all u can do is take an educated guess on what can be done for him wich is a big risk in the end.
I have seen many ppl give advise and much of it was completly wrong .. Who do you trust? Its a very iffy subject. Don't get me wrong the advise I give out may not be the best but in my oppinion, thats what I would do ..
Wich means take ppls advises as advices if they decide to give em out cause all it is is an advice. Keep in mind they have not even seen the animal ..
Norman, I apologize that some ppl jump at your throat but sometimes frustrations get the better of em!
Keeping a monitor on astroturf is like keeping a corn snakes in water... it should just not be done that way..
Just my opinion, take it or leave it .. I mean no harm by it
CDN COLDBLOOD
12-04-02, 03:23 PM
Sorry Jeff, I thought it was deleted because it was a little harsh. Like I said before I'm sorry the last post sounded a little harsh, but I'm sure that everyone will agree with me when I say this happens all too often. I'm not saying you're totally to blame. The pet store that sold it to you is mainly responsible. Doing your research is very important though. You wouldn't try to fix your car without consulting a manual, your monitor is no different. I'm not saying you have to posess a breeders knowledge to get into monitors, because that only comes with experience, but there is enough info out there that can get you started out on the right foot. From there you can let your monitor tell you what needs to be changed. I just think it's a shame when pet stores prey on unwarry customers. I'm sorry if I offended you, I just have strong beleifs when it comes to the pet trade. I ope things work out for you and your monitor though. Here's some good starting points to get a bit of info:
www.varanus.net
kingsnake archives
(Be choosy about what info to believe,a good basic rule is just to use common sense, if it sounds like garbage, it probably is.)
You might want to do a search on the natural history of savanah's, get some local data like seasonal temps, rainfall, etc.
This could give you an idea of what may be causing your problems. If all else fails, you might want to contact Ravi (he's posted a few times on this forum). He' s had sucess keeping and breeding sav's. It's impossible to rely on these forum's to solve your sav's problems, b/c we don't know your sav and all the conditions he lives in. Keep us updated on your progress.
Brandon
thanks for understanding.
I dont agree, i find monitors the easiest reptile to take care of.
no iam not someone whos owned a just a savannah, ive owned about 10 different species and currently work with albigs.
When i started, it was tricky. i made quite a few emails to people and learned but it still wasnt as hard as some people make it out to be.
Theres some good literature on keeping monitors, and all of it says "substrate is the key"
and whenever you see a problem its usually substrate related, i find this is where people really screw up if they do.
its all substrate, and the ability to house the animal in a large enough enclosure to give adequate substrate.
they are the best lizards by far.
another note..
anyone whos kept savannahs or seen the way they come to pet stores would be compassionate for someone who purchased one unaware of their problems. abrasions and missing toes on a WC monitor are nothing new, espeacially an older specimen.
Give the guy some credit for coming here and asking for help. He could have been completely oblivious to what was wrong with his animal, but he didnt he thought something was wrong and posted here and asked. I found his question very IN line. Alot of people say monitors get impacted from their substrate which is a possibility, and probably the reason norman had his sav on astroturf/lenolium.
water/heat combined will make it almost impossible for a monitor to become impacted.
So il add to my previous post on substrate: the key to SAVANNAH MONITORS IS!
120-150 degree basking spots, (the retes stack works but you're better off using deep substrate, you'll see your monitor digging hides under his basking spot, and in a cooler end to his own need)
Adequate water dish - if you see your sav soaking constantly, your setup is too dry.
and like i said above.
DIRT.
hope this helps
i put a few inches of top soil in and it seems to be working great. but i should keep it moist and packed down right? any other suggestions?
There all great suggestions v.aw and I agree on the majority .. but trully disagree with the fact that there easy to care for PROPERLY.. even the easiest to care for -- not that is wrong .. com on this are species that may be easy to keep alive but not to make thrive in captivity! Jst my .02$
I think adequate husbandry comes with lots of reading and talking to fellow herpers but great husbandry comes from lots of experience and working with the specific animal .. I have heard this line often and totally agree with it ..let them tell u what they want.
I'd suggest more than a few inches .. depending on size he counld need 12 to 24 inches.. I keep it hard enough for the to walk over a borruw but soft enough for them to dig...
I use the retees stack with my white throat and find it to work wonderfully but my sav's dont have any and use borruws instead and i find it to work as well .. again see what your animals prefers.
how do retes stacks work? are they underneath the dirt or ????
Jeff_Favelle
12-04-02, 08:18 PM
Retes stacks can be anywhere you want them to be, but they are most effective above-ground. They are just layers (usually plywood) that get successively hotter as they get closer to the light. Think of them as little shelves or apartment buildings, with the roof of the top floor exposed to the light.
Just to be clear :D, I didn't jump down your throat. I just suggested than anyone keeping a monitor on astroturf should not be allowed to keep monitors. I was just surprised that thing wasn't dead.
I agree with V.aw that after the initial brain cramps, monitors have be the LEAST labor intensive monitors to care for. They have readily definable signals that clue the keeper into what's wrong or what's right with the monitor. Hardly any other captive reptiles do that like a monitor. However, getting to that point where you can actually read a monitor or even understand that it is not like a snake, or a Leopard Gecko, or a Bearded Dragon, is very very difficult (sometimes impossible) for some people.
Also, I would never keep a Savannah in a cage less than 8x2x4. I'd feel so bad for the monitor. That's why I don't keep them. I can have 20 dwarf monitors in the space that I could have a pair of Savannahs.
thanks...but do you have any pics of them being used,like in your setup or whatever? if anyone does that'd be great.
For monitors its very easy to tell if something is wrong. They dont eat. IT takes alot of stress and illness to make a monitor stop eating.
Retes stacks are good for stressed animals, i personally dont like them too much..... I prefer letting the animal make his own bask, but its worked very well for others so why waste a good thing.
Depending on your sav's size you should put more substrate. for my smallest sav, hes only about 6 inches i have him in a 20 gallon tank thats half full of soil so he can dig down. I put in some cork bark here and there (just bits) to hold the soil together even better. Yes pound it flat, so its almost like clay, then if you want start a burrow for the savannah, i guarentee you he'l finish it. (since hes been captive for awhile and on astroturf you may need to intice him.)
Yes, monitors are a pain at first. I've emailed Ravi quite a few times, espeacially when i was beginning. (iam sure my emails got very annoying!) but he was very helpful, and he also always said to go with your own judgement, a form of husbandry may work for one person, and another may have a different form that works as well, or better. Thats why we share our opinions here!
this board is getting good, lots of people are getting into helping newcomers.
BTW jeff, like i said its so easy to read a monitor. all of mine are out about 12 hours a day looking for me to feed them. If i dont see them, and they dont eat, thats my sure fire way to prove somethings up. Also, a monitor thats always aggressive and suddenly becomes tame, well theres another way :) you'll see as you spend more time with your lizard.
thanks!
can someone send me pics of their savannah setup so i can get some ideas? id really like to see some that are for adult sized monitors.
Ive posted these before but here they are again...
The cage is a 6x4x2. Chubs, is a 3,1' male and Miss burnsey is a 2,some inch female ..
Keep in mind that a boy should never ever get this obease .. when I received him, He was almost 14 pounds and had horrible muscle tone .. he is now abou 10 and doing better but still too big around.. With proper husbandry, a monitor will never ever get obease..
I've been told this hundreds of times - especiallly by Jeff lol - Its impossible to overfeed your monitor and I finally agree...although keeping a 3 foot lizard in a 3x3 on cypress mulch for the first year of his life and fedding it as much as he will want to eat will result in that .. (that was the previous owner)
Anyway here are the pics again..
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/502/55chubsandmissburnsey-med.jpg
Heres the cage they are housed in presently.. This is the first time I have ever built a cage for a monitor .. things I have changed is switch lots of the meshing to more plexi windows to reduce air flow because the soil was drying out way to quickly, and if I could, next time I would build it 3 feet or even 4 feet high instead of only 2 feet high .. but thats too late now!
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/55savanahtankpic1-med.jpg
Anyway I hope u like em ... sorry to all who has see this pics already!
Jeff_Favelle
12-05-02, 10:36 AM
Here's one version of a Retes stack.
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ_answers_What_is_a_Retes_Stack.html
Jeff_Favelle
12-05-02, 10:39 AM
Dom, I'm SOOO glad you changed the screen to plexi glass! That's a GIANT improvement in husbandry!! :D
tx Jeff.. i noticed the problem after teh first week then got to work on it .. I still have one screen on but changed four mesh to screen .. humidit levels are perfect now..
u could of suggested it b4 Jeff if u though it would be a prob.. It would of saved me the hassle of dumping litres of water each day in that tank..
btw Jeff nice page on the retees stack ..
what do you think of the radiant heat panels? are they worth it? they seem a lot easier to maintain temperatures with espesially if they are hooked up to a thermostat.
dom what kind of humidity are you giving to your savannah?
Honestly V.aw, I kinda stopped really monitoring humiduty levels and instead mainly emphasized on the condition of the soil ..
Basically with all the screeen, in 2 days, the top inch or more was almost like sand! That was changed quickly .. I am aiming for a moist soil that holds a burrow, wich is excacly what I have .. they seem to love it that way. Under there basking spot and around, the soil is much dryer but htat is to be exected..
If u really want to know, I'll throw in my hydrometer and measure it..
no, i dont need to know. :)
just curious. Ive never worried much about humidity with my guys. I use mesh on my enclosures. My albig enlosure is 10x6x6. I use huge rubbermaids to make big hide spots in certain areas by filling them with soil. every couple of days i heavily water the soil, and it holds the burrows just fine.. I dont think plexi makes all that much difference.
It did for me .. lol With a hot spot of 130 in the day, I lost all moisture in the soil with all the meshing ..
For my cage it made a world of a difference ..
V.Aw ---> I'd love to see pics of them and especislly the encloser?
Tx in advance
Dom
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Here's one version of a Retes stack.
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ_answers_What_is_a_Retes_Stack.html
We have a similar thing set up on our Burms, Not quite as many levels.
http://snakes.lexxdog.com/snakes/enclosure-burm1s.jpg
i can have some pics up in a week or so dom, no digicam here, but will be using my brothers soon.
Go to Proexotics.com and look in their FAQ, Robyn has a decent section there on the stacks. Don't cut a hole into the middle though, that defeats the purpose of the thing.
Simply lay the stack under the basking spot, the monitor will do the rest. My ackies do a really good job at burying the first level by themselves.
Hang out on the varanus.net forum, and just read for a few months. There, you will learn much.
Good luck!
Oops, sorry, didn't realize that there are 3 pages in this thread!!! I'm a little bit late!
Jeff_Favelle
12-29-02, 02:03 PM
I agree with kkigs. I don't like the hole in the middle. Defeats the purpose of the stack.
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