View Full Version : Evil mice, or doing the right thing?
Ok, that is the question I have been trying to answer, but I cant! Ok, I just recently noticed that my mice had more mice. Well, we had 2 females in a cage and 1 male. I fed the male to my snake a lil while before that. The male was a dark colour and there was one female with the same colour, and the babies are that colour, so i am guessing she is the mother????? Anyways , both females seemed to be taking good care of the babies, so I decided to just keep them both in the cage with the babies. Well I heard a large screeching noise in the cage and I look over and saw blood everywhere. The other female ( not the mother) had seriously bitten one of the babies. So i took her out and fed her to my snake! LMAO! anyways. so then I just took the other mom out and cleaned up the blood WITHOUT touch the babies and i was wearing rubber gloves and and cleaned out the blood and i left the baby that was bitten in the cage cuz she seemed to be doing ok. I put the mom back in , la dee da dee da. And then i went to check up on the babies and i noticed that there was only two i could see and only one was moving. So i again put on the rubber gloves and took out the mom and look under the little plastic house they were under. Then one that was bitten early was buried under the bedding, so I am guessing it died of suffication or internal injuries. And I noticed that the reason only one mouse was moving is because the other had been eaten into the gut. So it was kind of eaten alive. Well so I threw away the dead mice and put the evil mom back in the cage. They seem to be doing ok now. but why the hell did those mice kill the babies??? Was is because they knew they were sick so they thought they should kill them now and maybe get a good meal?OR WHAT?!?!??! I dunno, but PLEASE TELL ME WHY THEY DID THIS! Thank you!
Hey!
Don't worry, that is very common with mice.
There are a number of reasons babies may be eaten
- there is a lack of food or water
- it is the mother's first litter - females will often eat their first litter
- they are stressed... if you are poking around the cage a lot and making them run around and stress out, they may eat their babies
- a jealous other female. If females aren't brought up together or if one is just jealous, they may eat the babies of other females. These mice should be removed and fed to a snake.
In your case, it was probably stress from messing around in the cage or because it was the mother's first litter. It happened to my first litter too. I seperated the female i thought was causing the problem and put her alone with a male and she had a nice litter of 13 babies (mind you I always leave the females with only 6 babies... they grow faster and I need to spend less on mouse food, and I really don't need 10-15 babies on each female).
If you are going to try breeding, don't give up because of this. I suggest you go buy a sub adult trio (or 1.3, whatever you want) and let them grow up together. Also, this is just what I did, I have all albino females, and a normal male. That way all my babies are brown and I can tell them apart from the females... it makes my life a lot simpler!
Zoe
Evil ... eeeeeeeeviiill ... oh, sorry.
So i took her out and fed her to my snake! Sheesh .. J.J. .. remind me never to tick you off. :D lol
I think Zoe's comment is probably the right one. First litters are often a problem. We actually had a dog do that once on her first litter .. she ate all her pups ( we were way off on her due date and were both at work, came home to the lovely scene). Give those mice a good talking to and try again. :cool:
Tim_Cranwill
12-02-02, 10:19 PM
Oh man, a dog did that? I'd find it really hard to look at that dog the same way. It bugs me enough when mice do it and I almost expect them to do it. Gross....:(
thats messed up, i can see using a rodent used completely for a feeder but any rodent thats raised by people and actually aquires trust him a human, is very morbid to be feeding that same animal to anything. that animal believe it or does trust you!! they look at you as a food source like your snake does!!
i dont see how people feed live baby mice to animals, theyre completely defenseless, i know thats the point but thats really twisted. iam frozen all the way just because of that. rodents are actually very intellegent animals. oh well il shut up now.
I'd have to agree with Quervo and Zoe. It was msot likely because it was their first litter. Another thing I would like to ad is that wearing gloves isn't necessary (unless you want to keep yourself clean). You can handle the babies with your bare hands, its an old wives tale that if you get your scent on them their parents will devour them.
Originally posted by Quervo
We actually had a dog do that once on her first litter .. she ate all her pups ( we were way off on her due date and were both at work, came home to the lovely scene)
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Originally posted by V.aw
i dont see how people feed live baby mice to animals, theyre completely defenseless, i know thats the point but thats really twisted. iam frozen all the way just because of that. rodents are actually very intellegent animals. oh well il shut up now.
It's the cycle of life, it's nothing personal... and people need to realize that it's not anything morbid or wrong. It's simulating the same thing that has been happening in nature since the beginning of time. Animals need to eat, some refuse to eat prekilled/f-t, and in nature they all eat live. Intelligence is irrelevant to it all, just because you are smart does not mean you don't make a good meal for something higher in the food chain. Rodents are not apex predators. Somebody has to raise the feeders for the captive animals, nothing twisted about it :zi:
Originally posted by V.aw
thats messed up, i can see using a rodent used completely for a feeder but any rodent thats raised by people and actually aquires trust him a human, is very morbid to be feeding that same animal to anything. that animal believe it or does trust you!! they look at you as a food source like your snake does!!
i dont see how people feed live baby mice to animals, theyre completely defenseless, i know thats the point but thats really twisted. iam frozen all the way just because of that. rodents are actually very intellegent animals. oh well il shut up now.
whats the difference between a snake nailing a baby or some dude in a lab whakin' it. (i mean i know they dont constrict and eat the mice in the labs...) still it dies in the end either way. i guess im just wondering whats the alternative? feed my snake carrots? i mean frozen or live its still gunna end up in my snake and it was still alive at some point in its life...
Ha Ha Quervo, ya you best not be tickin me off! Naw, im just kiddin! :p Well, thanx alot Zoe, that really really helps me out!! Phew! Well, thanx you to all yal! Thats really gross that your dog ate its babies Quervo! EEWWWIE! Also, V. aw, It's all part of the great circle of life.<<< From my favorite movie, The Lion King. Only the greatest childrens animated movie EVER!
LOL! Well thanx again people! :D
By the way linds. Yeah, I know how like my gramma would always tell me. "DONT TOUCH THE BIRDS NEST OR IT WILL COME BACK AND SMELL YOUR SCENT AND IT WILL ABANDON (sp.) ITS BABIES!" Then i found out at Homosassa State park in FLA. that birds cant smell....................lol
that isnt the circle of life
in the wild a mouse can run away, or dig a burrow large enough to escape a snake, and in some cases a mother mouse would kill the snake going for the pinks. think about that.
As for the lab testing stuff, i ve never said to agree with that either, thats a whole other story.. But feeding a pet to a pet is sick.
Is it a circle of life to feed your pet dog to your burmese? no..
if you raise em as feeders, fine.. But why raise live rodents as feeders anyways, when you can get humainly killed rodents. And dont say it saves money because breeding 1000's of rodents stinks, takes alot of time and is probably more expensive.
the way "JJ" posted these animals were not meant for feeders, they were pets.. Unless ive read this wrong.
my whole point is what ever happened to the emotional attachment to a pet?
(kind of like, would you feed your defenseless corn snake to a kingsnake because its higher on the food chain??)
well, I was not emotionally attached to those stupid mice anyways. They were origanlly feeder mice, but one happened to have babies, thas all. Then one killed the baby, and since she was going to be snake food in the first place, i fed the damn thing to my snake who was hungry. And in the wild, a mouse CAN get away, but snakes are so fast, it probably wont. one reason why people breed and feed live is because MANY snakes will absolutely refuse to eat dead mice, it just doesnt seem the same as live to them. My ball python is like that, and I am sure many people have "picky" eating snakes. If you dont like that we feed animals to our snakes, then why are you here?? I dont mean to sound like a wicked witch, but this is what we do, we raise snakes. After a while of having snakes, feeding them mice isnt hard to do. And here, feeding mice to snakes IS NOT a bad thing, its like a kinda been there done that thing, its also like a who cares thing. I mean, come on. All living things have to eat sometime. What are we supposed to do, spend hundreds of dollars on snakes then never ever feed them and watch them starve until they die then go buy more and do it all over again??????? That's a HUMONGOUS waste of time and lots of money! THEY HAVE TO EAT! I guess all I have to say is, Get used to it!!!!!!!!
iam not going to argue with you, you completely missed my point.
I too feed mice to my reptiles, humainly killed frozen mice.
humanely? How humane? suffocating them with CO2? or breaking their necks? or just throwing them in the freezer so they freeze to death? you can NOT humanely kill something.. murder is murder.. killing is killing.. some ways just appeal to someone more than others
I totally agree with Renee. Pre-Killed mice arent "gently" killed or whatever! My goodness! How is that even possible? They do terrible things to kill mice to make frozen pre-killed mice. In fact I think that pre-killed mice are harmed more than Live fed mice! Also, you have reptiles?? Wow, that surprises me! I thought you were just on this site to complain about how we kill our mice and feed our snakes. No offense or anything......
Humainly Killed......that's actually quite funny.
snakekeeper
12-03-02, 08:47 PM
I would have to agree with renee and jj. There is no humane way to kill any animal.Some ways may cause less pain, but none the less is is still not humane.If you preffer to feed f/t thats fine, but also remember some people preffer to feed freash kill or live. That does not make them any less of a person IMO.
Hey renee, your son has the same birthday as me! But i was born 1989
NO humane way to kill an animal, huh? What about euthanasia with anesthetic? I don't know about you, but I've been put under for surgery before, and it's pretty much the same sensation - only once the animal is asleep, they're overdosed so the heart slows and stops.
As far as killing mice for consumption by snakes, there are <i>more</i> humane ways, and there are <i>less</i> humane ways. Less pain = more humane, less time = more humane, less stress = more humane. If you kill a rodent in some way that take half an hour, but doesn't hurt and doesn't scare it, that's humane... and a way that has a second or 2 of stress and a split second of pain and then nothing is pretty darn humane to.... compared to say, drowning, or freezing directly...
Dawn
I agree with the above post by Cas.
C02 gas is going to be alot less painful than putting the mouse through constriction. (or yes, breaking its neck, smacking it against a hard object ETC)
It's my opinion. its not going to change..
Ive seen people give up their pet hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits etc to pet stores as they can no longer take care of them. They hand them over regardless of what the store tells them. 99% of the time the animal is to old to be put on display with the younger animals, so it will be used for a feeder.. The owner doesnt care, no emotion at all. The post by JJ Just reminded me of the very low respect for life these days. "I threw the dumb male in with ym snake for killing the baby mice". I dunno, if it was me id feel awful that i was neglectful enough to leave a male rodent with the babies. Then theres justification, like : That happens alot, its a husbandry problem! We dont tolerate our lizards killing another lizard, thats a tragedy. But when the mice do it, its like who cares. I just notice a really big disrespect for life, its sad. oh well thats my two cents :)
Originally posted by J.J.
I totally agree with Renee. Pre-Killed mice arent "gently" killed or whatever! My goodness! How is that even possible? They do terrible things to kill mice to make frozen pre-killed mice. In fact I think that pre-killed mice are harmed more than Live fed mice! Also, you have reptiles?? Wow, that surprises me! I thought you were just on this site to complain about how we kill our mice and feed our snakes. No offense or anything......
Humainly Killed......that's actually quite funny.
So, leaving babies unattended with the mother, and being ignorant to possibilities that may arrise is humane?
leaving a mouse to suffer with a punctured stomach suffocating in its own blood is humane?
oooook.. As i said before, il go with the C02 anyday before id breed my own mice.
Originally posted by V.aw
So, leaving babies unattended with the mother, and being ignorant to possibilities that may arrise is humane?
leaving a mouse to suffer with a punctured stomach suffocating in its own blood is humane?
oooook.. As i said before, il go with the C02 anyday before id breed my own mice.
WOW so you are saying you'd CONSTANTLY watch over your baby mice.. must be nice not to have a life.
Who said anything about punctured stomachs?
Just a question for you.. Do you eat beef? chicken? pork? if so they are NOT killed humanely!
Originally posted by V.aw
We dont tolerate our lizards killing another lizard, thats a tragedy. But when the mice do it, its like who cares. I just notice a really big disrespect for life, its sad. oh well thats my two cents :)
We don't??? I'm sure if you ask around you will find that some people do keeep reptiles that do not eat rodents, but other reptiles or amphibians. This isn't just on mice, and I think you would be hardpressed to find any one of us raising our feeders as pets. I don't know of anyone who raises their feeders as anything other than feeders. I have my feeders, and I have my one pet rat - who will never be fed. I see no disrespect for life from anyones post in this thread. I kill my mice and rats instantly, no suffering, no different than the kind you receive that are frozen, only I'm not paying for someone else to do it. I have equal respect for all animals great and small. Be it an ant, a spider, a rabbit, snake or cow. All has equal importance. But the cycle of life is the cycle of life, it's not a manmade thing, we didn't choose it to be this way, that's just how it evolved. I didn't choose it so my animals happen to eat other animals, that's the way it just happens to be. There is a small population of people that do see it the way you are describing it - that do have the disresepct for certain species, that do raises them up like they would a pet, but thats a small percentage. I can't think of any of us here that are like that, so please do not stereotype us like that :)
Grant vg
12-04-02, 08:44 PM
I dont think anyone can really comment and blast one on the way someone else kills there rodents.
If one chooses to kill a rodent be it co2 or wacking it on the head a few times, its up to them. Bottom line. We all have our own opinions and our own set of morals.
What we persieve to be valuable and what is not, is up to the individual.
I for one have nothing against wacking a rat as many times as it takes for it to be dead prior to feeding.
If you have a large snake that eats rats, but wont eat dead ones, nor would you want to feed live ones, would u not wack the rat enough times to paralyze it but keep it alive so your snake will except it?
I have had to do this many of times, and it has been neccessary.
If your wondering whether i was feeling bad for the rat, no not really.
But thats me, It doesn't make me less of a person, i am just less sensitive to the issue then others.
My main concern is my snakes. not the rats.
My main concern is also my stomach, not the chicken that was killed to fill it.
And yes, one can say these chickens were killed in a "humane" way.
but really, if you are not a commercial rodent breeder, nor do you have the cash to spend on cO2. I really dont see anything wrong with wacking a rat on the head.
And i know i have fed a rat immediately after it bit me.
Would you consider me a bad person?
I have also fed pet anoles to an amazon tree boa, as well as made an anole stock.
does that make me a bad person?
If so, how would you describe me to a friend of yours, based on that fact?
True, that anole thing affected me somewhat, but see thats my line of sensitivity. And it doesnt make me a bad person. I did what i had to do, THE WAY I CHOSE TO.
Nothing wrong with that.
IMHO anyway.
Gvg
You know, I really don't see that there's a conflict raising mice that are intened to be feeders the same way you'd raise mice intended to be pets - it seems to me if the rodents are 'friendly', or at least not stressed out by being handled/examined/moved during cleaning, then that's improving their quality of life until the point when they're gased, whacked, or whatever. It makes their lives less stressful if they can handle our presence around them without having a little mousy heart attack every time we walk into the room (not to mention, if they aren't afraid of us, they're less likely to care if we mess around with their babies... so lowered chance of cannabalism). My one bin of breeder mice is hyper sensitive to my presence - they never fail to run and hide at top speed whenever I'm near their rack. I feel kinda bad for them, since at least once a day I give the little buggers the fright of their lives just by walking into the mouseroom. I should be getting pinks from them this month, and I don't think I'll be able to risk checking out the babies until they're fuzzy size - unless I just cull out most or all of them *note to self - must get CO2 tank set up, must get CO2 tank set up...before I'm up to my neck in mice*
As far as multiple cannabalizers/biters go... it only makes sense to feed them off... not really traits you want to pass on to future generations.
BTW, Grant, I was just wonding about this the other day.... does anole stock work as well as direct anole scenting? I would think the flavor/scent would be changed by the process of making stock... (it is done by boiling the anole, right?)
Dawn
Grant vg
12-04-02, 10:01 PM
Cas,
I would say that the anole stalk is far superior then scenting a rodent with an actual live anole.
My amazon didn't eat for months, did the stupid lizard scenting thing from T-rex or whatever. Didn't work.
Tried multiple times rubbing a pinky on an anole. dodn't work.
Then i tried the anole stalk and got instant results.
The way i did it, not sure if everyone wants to know. but hey!
This is the feeder forum! lol
I basically boiled hot water in a small pot, dropped the live anoles in which resulted in instant death.
Took them out.
Chopped them up.
Put the remains back in, and boiled it for 1/2 an hour and tad-dah!
Not only did i have the complete aroma of anoles, but i was able to use it over and over, as i put it in a container and freezed it.
Each time i needed to feed, i pulled the container out, left it in the over (which was turned off) and let it thaw out.
I then placed the pinky in the container, let it sit for a while.
Took it out, placed it in the container, and within minutes the amazon ate it.
Definately waaay better then using live anoles.
Plus you dont have to feed a gazillion crickets to the anole to keep it healthy. :)
And making a stalk of anything brings out the flavour.
We use many types of stock for many types of food at my restaurant for cooking and sauces.
So why wouldn't your snake like it? :eek:
you do what you do to feed your animals i guess. i have my opinions on it, you may not agree. you have your opinions i may not agree, so lets leave it at that, everyone has their own opinions.
i respect your opinions, as iam sure you do mine.
Was fun debating, but this obviously wont go anywhere!!
Since i have no life, iam off to babysit my pinkies! jk, nice shot though raneeb it hurt badly :)
For scenting mice some one suggested to me to brumate a toad in your fridge. too late to get one here, but we're going try it next year.
Grant vg
12-04-02, 11:57 PM
V. aw,
I just want to commend you on that last post.
I really like when ppl have such a strong opinion on an issue and still be able to accept a stalemate and move on to another great debate! Weve had many discussions reminding me of this one has which turned out for the worst.
Your awsome buddy!
But really, C'mon, i got to know somethin...
Were you not cringing at the teeth when u were reading my anole recipe? :p LOL'
Grant vg
Originally posted by Grant vg
V. aw,
...
But really, C'mon, i got to know somethin...
Were you not cringing at the teeth when u were reading my anole recipe? :p LOL'
Grant vg
yes.
Was fun debating, but this obviously wont go anywhere
debating ... is that what you call it ... I'd hate to see you get insulting then.
Personally, I think you owe J.J. an apology for the way you came down on her for not thinking like you do .... but that's just MY opinion.
what the hell are you talking about?
insulting? I stated my opinion, i was bashed for it. it seems as if nobody is allowed to disagree on these boards. i said, "i respect her opinions" and left it at that.
If anyone took the time to read, that i dont agree with feeding a pet to a pet, not a feeder to a pet, none of this would have been blown up! there IS a big difference.
my whole point is to be responsible when breeding your feeders, and how you dispose of them. without them you wouldnt have your healthy snake or lizard. Jeez, dont be so damn sensitive.
and if what you want is an apology, fine. I don't mind apologizing.
I apologize if i offended anyone with my views, I better go make sure my pinkies are ok, as i have no life and all . :)
PS
dont take things so personally, iam entitled to my opinion too. ** I never said JJ was morbid, i said i felt the whole, "iam gonna keep mice as pets then feed em' to my reptile when iam bored of them" was morbid, so sorry for any confusion.
Originally posted by Grant vg
V. aw,
I just want to commend you on that last post.
I really like when ppl have such a strong opinion on an issue and still be able to accept a stalemate and move on to another great debate! Weve had many discussions reminding me of this one has which turned out for the worst.
Your awsome buddy!
But really, C'mon, i got to know somethin...
Were you not cringing at the teeth when u were reading my anole recipe? :p LOL'
Grant vg
hehe not really, you know why? it was how you said it.. You werent like " i threw the dumb anole into the pot, but it jumped out half melted crawling on the floor "LOL" and it was funy then i stupid thing in with my snake" just look at the differences.. I dunno JJ's original post just annoyed me. I keep monitors, and many of them, you dont think i go through a mouse or two? I misunderstood his post i guess. and everyone took it to heart and decided to attack me.
I don't know you, but iam not sure if iam reading sarcasm, or you are actually commending me for ending this dumb thread.
Originally posted by V.aw
the way "JJ" posted these animals were not meant for feeders, they were pets.. Unless ive read this wrong.
my whole point is what ever happened to the emotional attachment to a pet?
(kind of like, would you feed your defenseless corn snake to a kingsnake because its higher on the food chain??)
I think people skim over posts.. This is my proof, as i admited to being wrong on what i read and people continued to blab saying i have no life, heheh
AS I SAID on the post previous to this one (god this is stupid) Rodents as pure feeders is ok in MY eyes (not yours this is IMO) but feeding a PET because you are bored of it to your pet higher on the food chain is MORBID! not using feeders as a whole.(refer to my post about seeing kids come to my store bored of their hamsters &gerbils, not caring if it becomes a meal) It just brought back memories, thats all.
I guess i TOO neglected to read deeper and jumped to conclusions, so lets end this garble shall we?
OH MY FRICKEN GOSH! All I wanted to know is why the mom killed her babies, and in the end, Im getting arguements and apologizes and people being cocky to other people. I found out what i needed to know. I started most of this though, like 99% of it, so I guess it is my fault that this all started. So i am sorry to everyone but i just had to express my feelings about what V.aw said. I love you all, I really do! But sometimes I just cant keep my feelings in, it runs in the family! lol, so V.aw I am sorry for not "keepin my kool" and shouting at you, but you have to understand, we eat cows, sharks eat us, snakes eat mice, mice eat grass, eventually everything eats eachother. Look at a hamburger sometime and then think that it used to be a living breathing cow. And then think that it was slaughtered (sp.) and killed JUST so it could wind up on your plate at McDonalds or burger King. Well, also, mice are already over populating!!!! Who cares if the snakes eat them?! if it werent for animals eating mice, there would probably be more mice than anything in the world. Just like rabbits and all other fast breeding animals. Why do you think states allow deer hunting? not just so we can get food, but so the population doesnt go hey wire! If the deer are going extinct or endangered then they will make it so that we cannot hunt until the population of deer flourishes. Well, thats all i have to say i guess. My apologizes again. Bye bye
But i know, i know, you were just mad cause you dont like that we feed "pets to pets" But they arent pets. and i hate mice! :D
So, leaving babies unattended with the mother, and being ignorant to possibilities that may arrise is humane?
What was I supposed to do?? Its there mother, she gave birth to them, so they are her babies, they arent mine to take care of. But nevermind, i dont want to argue again. Also, the one that had a punctured stomache, if thats what you wan to call it, I clenaed up and trew away as soon as i found it, ok.
AymKing
01-02-03, 12:01 AM
I agree no matter how it was killed it was once alive, but it's got to die somehow to be eaten. As far as mice in the wild there are snakes that find a nest and devour every last pink, then go for mom, some snakes if hungry enough won't stop once they find a mouse scent, moral of the story: mouse dies anyway. Since we have taken snakes out of their environment we must feed them, so I don't think it's cruel or inhumane to feed them rodents (regardlous of how some die whether they are frozen or whacked or just given to the snake live.) I have bred for my snakes, my snakes can't leave and hunt there own, I must do it for them. That's what my mice and rats and hamsters are for.
lanalizard
01-02-03, 08:47 AM
wooh! i dont believe in ANY WAY AT ALL that hamsters are meant as feeders in captivity.....any snake owner that i have talked to disagree that hamsters should be used as feeders.
Them and Us
01-03-03, 12:50 AM
oh the power of words.
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