Handling giant constrictors

[steelnink]

Alright giant snake owners, i'm here to pose a question about the entire handling debate.
I'm so tired of people getting trashed about their handling techniques with the giants.
The entire issue is the 8ft rule,[ over 8ft there should be 2 people, after 12 to 14ft there should be 3 or more].
I realize that YES, this would make things alot safer, but who has all these extra people when its time to interact with a giant?
So lets cut the b.s and get real, who all is like myself, and handles the big-uns alone?
I welcome everyones opinions and thoughts on this subject.

As a side-note, just because you might have an extra person, doesn't mean that your any safer if they are not comfortable with dealing with constrictors,[running around screaming, with arms flairing about, while your giant decides to give you a hug].

[rrrrr]

You're missing half the point. Yes, the rule is for your own safety, and what you do with your safety is your business, although I'd hate to read about you in the paper. The rule also contributes to the snake's safety. Large burms need lots of body support when being handled. I'm not sure one person can "handle" a 14 foot burm by him or herself and not put excessive pressure on ribs, vertebrae etc... More arboreal species can be handled with somewhat less support.

[steelnink]

The safety issue for the giant is a good point, but when held correctly, there is little risk of a 14ft burm attaining an injury.

[ReptiZone]

Steelnink is corrrect.
If handled properly, they are just like any other snake. Proper handling can also be much safer then having 3 pair of arms in that way. But I use the extra people when I need them, handling for medicinal purposes, of course. I never clean my animals without my wife being at earshot distance. Man, things can happen!

I really think that once you have an animal that is like 15 feet and up, you really need close to 5 people in that room with you and they have to be declared clinically insane. Because in reality it is a job easily accomplished with just two people. If something goes terribly wrong though, you will need the 3 other crazy guys to jump in knowing full well they could get bit by this animal.

So in short, I work alone most of the time, the wife is never very far, but I do know my limits. I know when to ask for help. It really becomes a judgement call that with experience a person can make with confidence.

The ReptiZone
Marc & Patricia Doiron

[kevyn]

I won't handle anything over 10ft. when I'm alone in the house. Most of the time it's just my wife and I'm confident in her handling abilities too. Again, I do this for my own safety. There are also certain policies that I have to minimize the danger of working with these powerful animals. I don't go into my snake room smelling like rabbits or chicken when it's time to clean cages. I pay very close attention to the snakes behaviour, and train them early with hooks to switch off the feed response. It's also a good idea to have a spray bottle of vinigar or some sort of alcohol near by too. And, to be totally honest, I'm way more concerned with bites than I am with being constricted. Bites from a giant snake can be very serious.

I think abit of common sence applies to this issue too. There is no way it would be safe for one person to handle a 17ft+ snake alone. On the other hand though, I have seen pictures of Bob Clark handling Fluffy with only 2 other people and it's unlikely that any of us have experience with a 26 + ft. retic.

I think it's very important for all giant keepers to be very careful with the snakes they keep. It is way too easy for us to lose the privilage of keeping these animals.

[steelnink]

I agree with you on that Kevyn.
As i would like to TRY to keep interactions with my burms and retic while my girlfriend is home, i admit, this rarely works.
I keep a spray bottle filled with Jack Daniels nearby,[if not to get a release, it'll kill the pain,lol].
Besides, how could you predict how that second person would re-act?
I know quite a few snake enthusiasts, that are fine with calm snakes, but when confronted with even a younger giant in a ill mood, they wig out.

I'm not saying having a second is ridiculous, it would prove to be alot safer[ problems arise], just find it hard to believe everyone has a second person nearby, during all interactions

[ReptiZone]

It may sound hard to believe but any self respecting, snake respecting, animal keeper will make arrangements to protect him/herself and protect the hobby.
It is one of the Practices that should be kept along with feeding healthy prey items and housing in properly sized, clean enclosures Etc..Etc.. And such things of equal importance.

[steelnink]

So what exactly are you implying Marc?
Anyone who keeps these creatures should be married or have a live-in girlfriend, or roommate?
A single person who lives on their own,[as i have] that choose' to maintain these reptiles, has no self-respect for the animals they keep or the hobby, or themselves?
Hold on a second, i have to take a couple anger managment pills.
O.K. now i'll respond to that.
I know a guy through the N.S.H.S, thats been dealing with giants for over 28 years, mainly burms and rocks, and i would not hesitate to say he has forgotten more about snakes then most of us will ever know.
His knowledge"as he puts it" is from hands on experience, not what the books/magazines say.
I would highly doubt this man is suffering from low self-respect for his animals, or anything else for that matter.
Recently, i have been "called out" about my experience in this game.
For a number of years i lived alone and owned giants, and my #1 priority was and always will be the health/care of the reptiles i keep.
I can assure you, that i suffered no form of low self respect[ maybe a little low self-esteem from my back hair,lol].

As i stated earlier, yes i agree that if a person could have someone else with them when dealing with a giant, it would make things a little safer.
Reality wise, i believe this is not always possible.

The idea behind this thread is to point out that all of "common rules",[passed on from books and reptile related caresheets, and lets not forget about the all wise computer", is NOT the be all-end all.

[ReptiZone]

I don't mean to attack you but if you feel attacked those are your feelings, not mine. All I can say is that some people forget that a picture is just a picture. Maybe Bob Clark and one other guy are in a picture with Fluffy but you can not see the people behind the photographer biting their nails, hoping everything goes well. I have pics of myself holding large green anacondas alone but there are like 6 people behind the scenes watching my every move.

I adapt the rule differently for myself. I can handle a 10 foot snake alone but after 12 feet, I want a extra person for every 4 feet of snake. That is why I construct sectional cages where I can lock the snake in half while I am cleaning the other for days when I am alone. You see I love living my life and I DON'T want to jeopardize it in any way.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

[steelnink]

No, i can't say i feel attacked Marc.
My only problem i had with your reply was the whole, SELF-RESPECTING part.
I just feel that the whole issue should be more of a focus on a person's experience, then the standard rule of 2 or more people.
I realize a person can have years of experience with giant serpents, and even raising one from a hatchling to 14 or more feet, and there could still be accidents.
If a person use's common sense,[ no lingering prey scents, reading the animals actions, etc] and sets their own personal limits, handling alone, can be quite safe.

If i go to interact with any of mine, and i'm home alone, if they show any signs they don't want to be bothered,i give them what they want.
A trick i've used for years before handling the big-uns was to put on extra aftershave, my neck, my face, even my wrists,[ enough to smell like a $3 hooker,lol].
Yes , having extra hands nearby is wiser, i'm not about to argue that.
Marc, don't mean to put you on the spot, but, what would you do if your wife walked?
Would you make sure you had friends over before any interactions with your giants, or would you get rid of them?

Another old "standard rule of giants" is that people with children should not own constrictors, certainly not giants that could possibly escape and kill small kids.
One could argue that, even in locked enclosures, there is still possibilities of accidents.
Would you abide by these rules?

[burmese maniac]

I own a 10 foot burmese python whitch I always handle alone. My wife is always near by and there is a big bottle of alcohol near the tank. One important rule for me is to never stick my hands in the enclosure, always use a hook to take him out of his home that way the territorial instinct is taken away. I also own a baby southern scrub python. one day he will be big also and much more of a threat than my burmese and for sure that I will not be able to always have someone with me to deal with him. I guess my wife near me ready to go with alcohol and my hook, I feel plenty safe. don't get me wrong feeling safe does not make me careless. ALWAYS KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR SNAKE. this rule will help you always, because you might see him coming!!!!!!!! p.s. I find this was a great thread to start. we finally get feedback other than the books

[peterm15]

first off id like to say good thread..

i dont know anything about these snakes.. ect ect.. but i will say this..

it depends on the snake.. personally i wouldnt handle a 3 foot ball by myself if it was really agressive.. but i would handle a 8-10 foot boa by myself if it were nice.. and still accidents happen.. with larger snakes its better to be safe than sorry.... if you as an idvidual feel it safe to hold these snakes alone go for it.. if not dont.. i wouldnt suggest it to a newbie or someone with a new lage snake.. expert or not.. but imo its always better to take proper percautions than to wind up dead..

its like riding a dirt bike without a helmet.. ive done it.. fell off once.. will never do it again.. better safe than sorry.. with a close call some may feel the same... but there will always be ppl with or without warning that will do it...

it cant happen to me right

[SCReptiles]

The size formula is relative. There is no 8 foot constrictor in the world that is dangerous to me. I have been criticized throughout my career for not exercising enough safety in handling, wither is be venomous, giant snakes, giant lizards, crocs, big cats, ect. And I have reaped the rewards of my carelessness. I have been bite by everything from rattlesnakes to retics to crocs to massive monitors. Since this discussion focuses on giant snakes, I have been wrapped 3 times. All were burms and at least 15 feet…largest was 18 I think. I never at any time was in fear for my life, it was just a question of getting the animal in position for me to pull off the tail. In the early 90’s a keeper I know was constricted by a 16’ retic and passed out. His wife came home and found him in the coils. She got the guys brother and they unwrapped the snake and brought him back with cpr. He was fine. I think in that exact situation, I would have been fine….but he wasn’t. that is why I say the formula is relative. Perhaps 8’ in dangerous to some people, but not to most. Another keeper I know was hit in the leg by a 14’ burm. The animal wrapped his legs and he was unable to get the thing off him. He had both hands free, so he called 911 and when they arrived he explained how to unwrap it and they emt’s did it. He was fine also. There is no question that large constrictors are dangerous. Reptiles Magazine reports that burms are averages two deaths per year in the US, that is more then captive venomous. Caution should be used, but the amount necessary is different for different people. If that snake in the had wrapped my friends neck rather then his legs, I think he would have died as a result of his caviler attitude toward the snake.

[JimmyDavid]

I'm with Chuck, here.
First of all, you have to know your animal. By adulthood, snakes have a personality so very well defined that you almost can't go wrong. Tame is tame and those that never tamed down probably never will. there's a small chance that even the tamest of all snakes could go crazy at some point, but that chance also aplies to all living things: dogs, horses, even people. So, if our fear comes from there, then we are never safe near any living creature. But our primordial fear of snakes makes us more suspicious of them than, say, a good looking horse. Now, we all know that horses cause more deaths than snakes every year, don't we? So, if you are asking if i trust myself alone near a giant snake that i know it's tame, the answer is "much more than around some people i know"lol.
If you are dealing with a wild giant constrictor (i didn't use the word mean, because they are simply animals trying to defend themselves) then you have to use common sense. All help is good, and you should know what you are doing.

[daiyoukaii]

The size formula is relative. There is no 8 foot constrictor in the world that is dangerous to me. I have been criticized throughout my career for not exercising enough safety in handling, wither is be venomous, giant snakes, giant lizards, crocs, big cats, ect. And I have reaped the rewards of my carelessness. I have been bite by everything from rattlesnakes to retics to crocs to massive monitors. Since this discussion focuses on giant snakes, I have been wrapped 3 times. All were burms and at least 15 feet…largest was 18 I think. I never at any time was in fear for my life, it was just a question of getting the animal in position for me to pull off the tail. In the early 90’s a keeper I know was constricted by a 16’ retic and passed out. His wife came home and found him in the coils. She got the guys brother and they unwrapped the snake and brought him back with cpr. He was fine. I think in that exact situation, I would have been fine….but he wasn’t. that is why I say the formula is relative. Perhaps 8’ in dangerous to some people, but not to most. Another keeper I know was hit in the leg by a 14’ burm. The animal wrapped his legs and he was unable to get the thing off him. He had both hands free, so he called 911 and when they arrived he explained how to unwrap it and they emt’s did it. He was fine also. There is no question that large constrictors are dangerous. Reptiles Magazine reports that burms are averages two deaths per year in the US, that is more then captive venomous. Caution should be used, but the amount necessary is different for different people. If that snake in the had wrapped my friends neck rather then his legs, I think he would have died as a result of his caviler attitude toward the snake.

I can honestly say you are just lucky. To be put in the situation where a 15ft+ snake is actualy in the process of trying to kill you, you have done something
wrong. and for it to happed three times is just plain foolish. Not saying that you didnt handled being wraped correctly just saying if you had soemone else on the other end it might not would have had the ability to wrap you....

IMO you are playing with loaded guns and have only managed to shoot your foot.

[ReptiGramma]

STEEL..............YOU HAVE BACK HAIR!!!??? :eek:

[Linds]

[QUOTE=JimmyDavid]I'm with Chuck, here.
By adulthood, snakes have a personality so very well defined that you almost can't go wrong. Tame is tame and those that never tamed down probably never will. there's a small chance that even the tamest of all snakes could go crazy at some point...QUOTE]

I definitely have to disagree wioth this statement. I have seen VERY established (everything from 4 year olds to 10 year olds) adults become snappy snakes seemingly overnight, and I've seen a zillion typically relaxed animals all have their days. IMHO there isn't a small chance it will happen, it is something that WILL happen. Snakes are not sentient, which by my standards (as well as most other's) means they cannot be 'tamed'. You can try to condition them to an extent, but being that they will always only react without thinking, there is no such thing as a sure thing. Always be prepared.

[steelnink]

I have to agree with Linds on that.
I have also seen "puppy dog" tame adults turn into the spawn of Satan in short amounts of time.

As for Daiyoukaii' comment,
How could having another person present, avoid being wrapped?
It happens in the matter of seconds...

[T.O-SK8TER]

I handle my burm on my own most of the time, my burm is well over 16 feet.

adam

[daiyoukaii]

I have to agree with Linds on that.
I have also seen "puppy dog" tame adults turn into the spawn of Satan in short amounts of time.

As for Daiyoukaii' comment,
How could having another person present, avoid being wrapped?
It happens in the matter of seconds...

I guess I dont know how these wraps happen but the fact they have isnt a good sign. and another person could have been there to help manage the other end of the snake, doesnt seem that hard to understand that if a snake is supported by more then one person it is less likely to be able to coil around just one.

When you say wrap I think three things

1. you had the snake out resting around you and it desided to give you a big hug (again, another person could have been there as to not allow the snake to coil its self around you)

2. you where bit and it threw it's coils around you, this would lead one to believe it was trying to consume you or kill you, IMO this would be the worse. (not sure how this could be avoided besides staying alert/shield)

3. the snake threw it's coils without striking for what ever reason. (number 1 and 2 for how it could have been prevented)


Again, Im not saying I know more then you or trying to get in a pissing match but you tell me how a snake could manage to coil around you that couldnt have been avoided if another person would have been there.

there is an older (black and white) movie of a guy with a oh say 12 foot scrub python. the python was doing fine for a scrub but it still managed to get it's tail completely around the guys neck and chest causing the ?camera man? to help peel back the coils, and even then all that did was make the snake look for new body parts to constrict. The snake had the man by the legs, arms, and neck all in ~ a min. There is no doubt that guy would have been in SERIOUS trouble if he was there alone.

[bassteck76]

I have to agree with Linds......Snakes are Snakes are Snakes....they are all animals with insticts. PERIOD! Dogs, Cats, Snakes, Birds....it doesnt matter...they are never truly "tame". They simply have a level of tolerance towards us. At any given moment a snake can and possibly will bite you. It doesnt matter if you have 10 people there.....they can not prevent the bite and wrap from happening. If the snake decides to do so there is nothing we can do to completely stop it....just help unwrapping. The simple fact that anyone here thinks that 2 or 3 people could restrain a 15+ ft snake is beyond me.....LOL Slow it down maybe.....I think the whole matter of having multilple people is to support the snake and make it feel more comfortable with the entire process......= calmer snake. Just my opinions on this matter.

[JimmyDavid]

The "going crazy" factor, as i mentioned, is left to a tiny percentage of situations that don't even account for statistics. So, if we wanna make a science out of this, we should stick to regular situations that follow a normal pattern.
Why would a snake attack you?
1-it's a wild and dangerous snake that doesn't wanna be handled.
2-The snake is hungry and thinks you are food
3-The snake is going to strike at food and gets you by accident
4-You are hurting the snake
These are what you should be worried about. Sometimes people don't admit that they made a mistake, and blame it on the snake "ohh, the damned thing just went crazy!".

[steelnink]

I know what your saying Daiyoukaii, no pissing match intended.
Unless 2 or more people have"hands-on" a giant, i don't think a wrap could be avoided.
Here's the question- I've seen pics of your retic [great colors], when you get out on your own, what do you do?
Your gf moves in, great, what happens if she leaves?

I'm curious to what others, [who stand fast about these rules] would do in any given situation.

[steelnink]

The "going crazy" factor, as i mentioned, is left to a tiny percentage of situations that don't even account for statistics. So, if we wanna make a science out of this, we should stick to regular situations that follow a normal pattern.
Why would a snake attack you?
1-it's a wild and dangerous snake that doesn't wanna be handled.
2-The snake is hungry and thinks you are food
3-The snake is going to strike at food and gets you by accident
4-You are hurting the snake
These are what you should be worried about. Sometimes people don't admit that they made a mistake, and blame it on the snake "ohh, the damned thing just went crazy!".
I agree, in fact, i feel ALL accidents are a form of human error.
When a snake is going through shed, most times, they feel a little more defensive, don't handle them.
If you have any type of lingering prey scent on you, most times, the snake will hunt.
I do still agree with Linds, there are times when a snake will just turn nasty, but more cases than not, human caused.