Inbreed reptiles!

[monty bl python]

I have seen lots of people that say that they have breed the original snake with its offspring (especially morph snakes) but couldn’t t this present a problem. In dogs and other species this causes mental and physical defect. there has been inbreed human children without body parts, retardation, or even extra body parts. On this site people have said beware of inbreed bearded dragons but some one else has suggested that someone should breed a grader snake with its offspring to get more albinos.

My questions is why is it ok to have a inbreed snake but not a inbreed lizard. :medlotsae

[End Times]

Well, I'm no expert and am for the most part new to reptiles owning only a single ball python at this time and having owned anoles in the past and on one lengthy occasion I babysay a ball for someone else, but I think it goes like this:

Obviously inbred genes aren't as strong as a proper set of non-related genes given by non-related parents. As you said, people generally do it with morphs. The reasons are A) to create new morphs, and B) to save money. It's far cheaper to buy a 100% het, breed it to a normal, giving you possible hets, and then breeding the offspring when they come of age back to the 100% het parent. This gives you a chance of hatching out say an albino having only really spent the money on a single 100% het rather than like $3000 for an albino ball... It's a cheaper alternative that some see as an alright way to go about something.... On the other hand, when some new magical morph first comes out with one and only one unusual snake then there isn't much choice but to inbreed in order to try to create a second snake with the same mutation.

All in all.... is it harmful for the snakes? If overdone I imagine it would be so... but as long as the lines aren't overly inbred, then usually the animals are healthy. Is it alright to do this? Well, that's a whole other thread where people will start talking about the morality of it all.....

[mykee]

You also have to understand that people are constantly adding new blood to any given "line" that is being bred. When I breed my morph balls, I ALWAYS breed it to an unrelated mate, as I would imagine most do. There are occasions, especially with morphs, that I breed a Mom to her son, Dad to his daughter, or sibs, but new blood always has to be introduced to the lines being bred.

[Linds]

Nonsense.

Inbreeding doesn't create weak genes, in fact quite the opposite. It simply intensifies things, which is why people need to be careful. It can be used to make things better, but it can also bring out underlying problems. In some cases, outcrossing can even be harmful to animals, such is the case with specific populations. Inbreeding doesn't cause any different defects that can be found in breeding two unrelated animals as well.

[gonesnakee]

Inbreeding can bring out both the positive & also the negative traits in specimens. If overdone if creates lots of problems such as small weak non feeding offspring, high infertility in eggs (some very small fertile eggs also) & malformed under developed babies or ones that just up & die in the first week or 2. I have worked with Corns that have been too interbred before as have friends of mine & we all experienced the same problems. Most of them had came from the same founding stock that had already been interbred too much (didn't know that until all the problems surfaced after growing the stock up & breeding them) & the stock we tried out from it failed miserably despite "mixing it up some". Females also had egg binding & prolapse problems. The line they came from had apparrently been bred together for 2 or 3 generations & it should not have been done without outcrossing them more as the "line" had to be "dropped" due to all the issues & new blood was introduced. Mark

[Jeff_Favelle]

You cannot "create" genes. Inbreeding, outbreeding, line breeding, whatever, genes cannot be created. The only thing that can do that is either mutation or genetic engineering. Neither of which are affected by inbreeding.

The only thing inbreeding does is the lining up of like alleles. That's it. If the bad alleles aren't there to begin with, no amount of inbreeding is going to produce 3-eyed, two headed monsters.

[monty bl python]

so what you all are saying is that it isnt bad for the animal to do this but that you just have to be careful

[Linds]

Basically yes. Try to choose only the outwardly strongest animals, and if anything pops up, you know what you need to correct/discontinue. The tricky thing about breeding anything in captivity is survival of the fittest has been removed, so regardless of whether or not you outcross, you carry a certain risk of breeding weak animals.

[gonesnakee]

Good points Jeff/Linds. Thats what I was trying to get across sort of, but genetics isn't my strongest field LOL. It brings out the best, but also brings out the worst & often does. These "visual" genetic traits we seek because they look cool can also come with some negative ones that can surface in full force if not carefull. People always forget that things such as albinos & leusistics etc. are not considered to be "genetically strong" in nature (ie:"survival of the fittest") but are manipulated by us because they look neat. One must watch how certain breedings work out & as mentioned orginally sometimes projects need to be dropped based on the outcome of the offspring or lack of. As Jeff has stated "creates" isn't a good term as it is misleading but "can bring out" would be more proper. Anyhow IMHO it is always best to use unrelated stock whenever possible & also to consider the making of hets or risk the possible creation of "3 eyed, 2 headed monsters" LOL (been there done that) The line I was orginally refering too was striped corn stock myself & a few friends had worked with in the past. We all experienced the same problems while working with them. They had been inbred for a couple generations prior us obtaining the stock, thus bringing out all the negative traits that had not previously surfaced in the founding stock. Mark
P.S. Big Dan is a good guy to talk genetics too as he does have a degree afterall.

[Stav.T]

You cannot "create" genes. Inbreeding, outbreeding, line breeding, whatever, genes cannot be created. The only thing that can do that is either mutation or genetic engineering. Neither of which are affected by inbreeding.

The only thing inbreeding does is the lining up of like alleles. That's it. If the bad alleles aren't there to begin with, no amount of inbreeding is going to produce 3-eyed, two headed monsters.

100% with you you cant explain it better.

;)

Stav

[Jeff_Favelle]

What Mark and Stav said. ;)

[spidergecko]

You cannot "create" genes.

This isn't true. When I was in highschool, a girl I knew used to make her own genes. She bought the denim and added some flowers and other decorations herself.

[greenman1867]

3-eyed, two headed monsters.

Is anyone producing these this year? If so are you working on any specfic colours schemes or morphs? A Nice flower print would be cool. :medbugged


Good topic, explained very well, thanks Jeff and Linds. This is a topic people sometimes really do not understand, and like a lot of things not understood, gets twisted and "feared" up by people who just don;t know the facts.

Thanks

[JimmyDavid]

In theory, the best way not to spoil the genes of a flawless creature (but is there one?) is , in fact, to breed it to a related animal. But since weak traits don't always stand out, there's always the danger that you could be amplifying something very bad.


Just an observation: Jeff, of course there are ways of creating genes. there's got to be at least one way, but so far nature keeps it as a secret. That's the big puzzle. How do you think life started before there was ever anything to mutate from??? Scientist have theories, but nothing solid.

[Jeff_Favelle]

This isn't true. When I was in highschool, a girl I knew used to make her own genes. She bought the denim and added some flowers and other decorations herself.

Was she hot?

[JimmyDavid]

hehe. Seems like that girl had good genes. But again, is what's inside that counts ;)

[mykee]

Jeff, what do you think? A girl in high school that makes her own clothes? OF COURSE she was hot, and I'm guessing really popular too!

[peterm15]

ive got an add on question..

i know its ok to breed a daughter to the father ect ect.... but when does inbreeding become not so ok.. like is it still ok to breed the offspring of the father/ daughter back to the father.. ect ect... so basically how much is to much

[Reticsrule]

and ill add another question, why do people breed snakes and then sell them as $75 each, $125 pair, $175 trio? if you bought a related pair from the same clutch, is it ok to breed them together?

[Jeff_Favelle]

if you bought a related pair from the same clutch, is it ok to breed them together?


Have you not been reading this thread from the beginning? Or did you just read the last post??? LOL! :P

[Reticsrule]

well i started in the beginning but then it got too confusing :p lol. so is it safe to breed two siblings from the same clutch when they come of age?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ya, its safe. Unless they are carrying lethal single recessive or polygenetic genes.

[Reticsrule]

ok i understood the first part, but........ nah i wont bother you again lol:)

[BoidsUnlimited]

I hear people saying that its "okay" to inbreed one generation, but I feel they say that just to save themselves a few bucks.

If you truely care about the animal at hand, and want to produce a certain morph, you would be willing to go out and spend the extra money on another snake//lizard from different parents.

I do not agree with inbreeding at all...

[Invictus]

As mentioned, being against inbreeding, you may as well just be against breeding. Your odds of passing on weak alleles actually INCREASE by outcrossing. You can't suddenly make weak genes from inbreeding. By inbreeding related animals with proven strong genetics, you are doing them a huge favor.

[Jeff_Favelle]

As mentioned, being against inbreeding, you may as well just be against breeding. Your odds of passing on weak alleles actually INCREASE by outcrossing.

Too true. Listen to what Ken is saying. Take a moment to think about what snakes do in the wild: How far do they travel to mate? Hmmmm...... Do they maybe live in DISTINCT population? Hmmm.... Do you have a favorite "herping" spot as a kid where you could go and ALWAYS find that garter snake or pool or tadpoles? Well those spots are part of a population. Possibly a subpopulation. And the genes are flowin' rampant within that population. But not outside of it. There could be factors like a road, a forest, fast-moving river, mountain, etc etc. SO snakes breed in little pockets, and not really outside of those pockets. Ever read those old field guides where it told you to release any wild caught frogs or snakes EXACTLY where you found them? Ever wonder why that is?

[Invictus]

Aye Jeff. Let's take Rattlesnake dens and garter snake den sites as another example..... hmmmmm..... funny how 100 garters one year turns into 400 the next, lol!

[JAdkins2451]

I hear people saying that its "okay" to inbreed one generation, but I feel they say that just to save themselves a few bucks.

If you truely care about the animal at hand, and want to produce a certain morph, you would be willing to go out and spend the extra money on another snake//lizard from different parents.

I do not agree with inbreeding at all...

Sometimes you have to inbreed to prove out "new morphs".


Jamie

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly Ken!!! :D

[K1LOS]

I think it is tough for really religious people to accept inbreeding. I have seen them argue it in the past. I don't know, but i am guessing you are religious boids? Anyways, it seems pretty evident that a responsible breeder can inbreed his animals, keep a close eye, and in the end actually STRENGTHEN his line. This all sounds good to me.

How much of these genetics applies to humans and apes as well? Or is it all the same thing?

K!LOS

[Patrick Wise]

So far no has mentioned inbreeding depression which is a real problem. For a basic explanation check out this website

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/relevance/IIIA1Inbreeding.shtml

enjoy

[gonesnakee]

Great link Pat, Mark

[SOS]

Keep in mind the fact that ALL snake morphs were inbred at one time. If it wasn't for inbreeding, you wouldn't see any of the great morphs we see today. Inbreeding is necessary for the growth of our hobby, within reason of course.

[monty bl python]

I think it is tough for really religious people to accept inbreeding. I have seen them argue it in the past.

K!LOS
Technically everyone is inbreed if you go by a religious standpoint, because in the beginning there was only Adam and Eve

[JimmyDavid]

Not just from a religious point of view, but also from a scientific point of view. At the dawn of a new species, nature has to work with the available genetic variety there is, wich is none.

[Patrick Wise]

Actually, very rarely do species evolve from a single founder animal, island species excepted. When a species does originate from a few founder animals they experience a genetic bottleneck where mortality is extremely high as the deleterious genes are weeded out. Species usually evolve as parts of populations become isolated and progress along a new path or some new selective pressure acts on an entire population, take Darwins finches in the Galapagos for example. When conditions are dry and food is scarce finches produce eggs with small yolks, this triggers developmental mechanisms that result in overly large bills compared to the parent generation. This enables the young to feed on tougher seeds. This happens to an entire generation to the whole species in that locale, not just a few animals. Don't get me wrong, I am not against inbreeding animals for selective traits, more commonly called line breeding in other pet hobbies. But it needs to be done responsibly with respect to each species, what works for one may not work for the other. Individual species ecologies need to be considered. Recent studies on Green Iguanas suggest that clutch mates recognize each other versus non clutch mates, this may have profound implications with respect to avoiding inbreeding. Reptiles are such a diverse and polyphyletic group you can't generalize for the lot, you have to ask lots of questions and think and try and make an informed decision, like your doing on this forum.

[Invictus]

Great post again, Pat. You're right, responsibility must be taken, because if a reptile (I'll take snakes, because that's all I breed) is showing weaknesses such as small sizes, low fertility rates, deformities, etc., then the offspring will carry these weak alleles, and this will totally intensify when the animals are line bred. I think high attention should be paid to offspring of a line bred pairing as well for this exact reason - look for the weaknesses, and stop breeding that pair entirely.