Another hospital incompetence story

[SCReptiles]

A friend called me last night and told me he had been envenomiated. I was already on the road, so I went over to his apartment to access the damage. He had took a bite on the middle knuckle of the left index figure. I marked off the bite, then marked and timed the pain and swelling line. When the swelling made it to the wriest, he decided he wanted to go to the ER. I took him to Memorial in Chattanooga, TN, which is where I go with mine. Up until last night, I had always been impressed with this operation. The ER was backed up and they took probably a half hour to triage. Since this was a minimal envenomation I didn’t say too much. Had we been there with a cobra or EDB bite, I would have kicked the door in and carried him to the back. So, after a half hour or so wait, they took him in and got his story and insurance info. The attendant tells him to go back out and wait, they will get to him asap. She then says, “Dr Champion says not to worry copperhead bites are not fatal.” The Dr made this diagnosis without even looking at him. For all she knew, he could have been in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction. I asked the lady to inform Dr Champion that a perfectly healthy young man died from a copperhead bite last summer in LA.

If this had been a severe envenmation, the half hour they wasted before they talked to him could have been the difference in him losing his hand or even life and death. And the statement from Dr Champion should be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit.

[Lrptls]

thats really crappy, i dont understand ERs. i would figure some one being bitten by a venomous snake no matter what species would be rushed in and looked at right away because like you said, he could have had a terrible reaction and they could have been too late. i went to he ER years ago, not for a snake bite but i was extremly ill, i think i waited an hour maybe longer, they didnt take me in until i was puking. hospitals are great =\

hope your friend is ok as well, you hot keepers stay safe!

[Reticsrule]

i know if i was bitten by any venomous snake i would want treatment ASAP. don't people understand how toxic some of these animals are? they definately arent something to be messing around with. hospitals suck sometimes:( lol

[Serpens]

I hate ERs...although I think part of the problem, at least in MY area, is that they're horribly understaffed. But yeah, that sucks. I hope your friend is ok. And like lrptls said...you hot keepers stay safe!

Serpens

[psilocybe]

A friend called me last night and told me he had been envenomiated. I was already on the road, so I went over to his apartment to access the damage. He had took a bite on the middle knuckle of the left index figure. I marked off the bite, then marked and timed the pain and swelling line. When the swelling made it to the wriest, he decided he wanted to go to the ER. I took him to Memorial in Chattanooga, TN, which is where I go with mine. Up until last night, I had always been impressed with this operation. The ER was backed up and they took probably a half hour to triage. Since this was a minimal envenomation I didn’t say too much. Had we been there with a cobra or EDB bite, I would have kicked the door in and carried him to the back. So, after a half hour or so wait, they took him in and got his story and insurance info. The attendant tells him to go back out and wait, they will get to him asap. She then says, “Dr Champion says not to worry copperhead bites are not fatal.” The Dr made this diagnosis without even looking at him. For all she knew, he could have been in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction. I asked the lady to inform Dr Champion that a perfectly healthy young man died from a copperhead bite last summer in LA.

If this had been a severe envenmation, the half hour they wasted before they talked to him could have been the difference in him losing his hand or even life and death. And the statement from Dr Champion should be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit.

The purpose of this post is not to insult or belittle...I'll just get that out from the start.

I have to ask...was this bite due to freehandling (for any reason, including religious)? If not, then obviously the rest of my post doesn't pertain to this situation.

If so, while the doctors do have a responsibility in properly managing the patient, the patient deserves whatever he gets. I mean, what do you expect when you freehandle a venomous snake? If I take a gun, and shoot myself in the leg, and something happens in the hospital and I lose the use of my leg or whatever complication you want to apply to this hypothetical situation, do you think people would say "Gosh, those darn doctors screwed up helping that poor young man and his gunshot wound", or would they say "That dumbass, he shot himself in the leg, and he got what he deserved". I think it would be the latter.

We all know that most doctors in this country are ignorant in how to treat snakebite...if we choose to freehandle, we should by default be accepting of the consequences of doing so, no matter how severe. Blaming doctors for "medical mismanagement", even if it was the case, when blatantly irresponsible, and in my humble opinion, stupid, behavior caused the injury in the first place is looking for a scapegoat for one's own ignorance.

Again, if this is not what happened, then this post doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, obviously. I just have very little sympathy for people who knowingly engage in pointless, un-neccesary, and dangerous behavior, and then cry and blame someone else when the inevitable happens.

[Rikki]

Thats horrible doctors act like that when they are supposed to help people.

[SCReptiles]

Blaming doctors for "medical mismanagement", even if it was the case, when blatantly irresponsible, and in my humble opinion, stupid, behavior caused the injury in the first place is looking for a scapegoat for one's own ignorance.
I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

[psilocybe]

I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

I am assuming you do religously freehandle venomous serpents....you do, don't you? I'm sure I've seen you post that before. Might explain why you got so butthurt about individual accountability, that is, if you act like a moron, and get hurt, DON'T CRY ABOUT IT LATER!

I think you missed the context of my post. I'm sure you know that most doctors are COMPLETELY ignorant when it comes to venomous snakebite. Most have never seen one, much less treated it. I'm sure the logic that "a copperhead isn't deadly, don't worry" is much more common than you or I can even fathom.

I never said that a patient shouldn't be treated for "accidents" (I wouldn't consider being bitten while freehandling an accident, more of a guarentee) resulting from their own stupidity. What I said is, that if you choose to freehandle venomous snakes, you should be prepared to meet an incompetant ER staff as well, because chances are you will. Doctors are infinitely more competant in treating motorcycle accidents, gun shots, etc. Snakebite is either not covered in most medical schools, or summarized in a paragraph. I know...I have friends who are doctors, and some that are still in medical school.

Again, I'll use my previous example. If I shot myself in the leg whilst being a dumbass, then complained when something went wrong at the hospital, most people (including you) would probably say, "What a dumbass, he deserved what he got", not "Oh that poor young man". Freehandling venomous snakes is akin to playing around with a loaded gun, except the snake doesn't need you to pull a trigger for it to bite.

As for hospitals being there to make money, you are dreaming. ER docs in most areas are SEVERELY underpaid for the amount of hours and work they put it. Private practice is where doctors make money, not hospital emergency rooms. A lot of people cannot afford to pay their hospital bills, or take years and years and years to do it. Many hospitals run way over budget. This is why the charge so damn much money to the insurance companies and people that actually can pay their bills, to cover the people who can't. What planet do you live on?

Am I condoning the doctors actions? Hell no. He should have examined your friend before he opened his mouth. Would I expect something like that from your average ER doctor who's overworked, underpaid, and has about a bajillion other patients, not to mention paperwork to attend to, and to top it off, knows NOTHING about snakebite. You betcha. Something to keep in mind next time you freehandle.

And don't worry about offending me, lol, because I take very little creedence in what comes from the mouths of people who use, of all things, religion, as an excuse to get their kicks by freehandling venomous snakes. I'm certainly glad your friend has more sense than you.

[psilocybe]

Ah, here you go:

Thanks Brian. Since that other organization we belong to asked me to play down the whole free handling thing, I have not been talking much about it of posting any pics to raise your blood pressure. However, that is all about the change. I have been working on a paper on religious serpent handling for several months A pastor and I co-authored it and its just about ready to print. In it I make the claim venomous snakes can be picked up safely with proper technique rather then divine intervention. To substantiate my claims I took up all the southeastern venomous species. Soon you will get to see me free handling my 48” copperhead and my 68” diamondback. As well as a coral, cottonmouth, and timber rattler. I know you will be excited to see it. Ha ha ha ha ha

Here's another one:

I recently took a bite in the forearm from a 40” northern copper.


I wonder how that happened?

[SCReptiles]

Fool, what does my free handling have to do with this other guy getting bit?

[BWSmith]

While it is well documented that i have strong feelings agaisnt free handling, I do not think that is the issue at hand. And i honestly do not see what Chuck's handling tactics have to do with the medical management of someone else's envenomation.

[psilocybe]

Fool, what does my free handling have to do with this other guy getting bit?

The purpose of this post is not to insult or belittle...I'll just get that out from the start.

I have to ask...was this bite due to freehandling (for any reason, including religious)? If not, then obviously the rest of my post doesn't pertain to this situation.



This is what I said in the beginning of my first post...You had to go get your panties in a twist because of my comments regarding freehandling in general, and that if you do things like that you deserve exactly what you get, much as a motorcycle rider on the highway without a helmet who takes a spill deserves whatever they get, so I responded directly regarding your behavior...yes, the thread went off topic. Your freehandling has nothing to do with your friend being bit, and I never said it did.

I do mean this to be offensive because I think a statement this stupid deserves it. Personal behavior is the cause of almost every bodily injury. ER shouldn’t treat victims from motorcycle wrecks as they choose to ride. They should not treat drowning victims as they choose to swim. Hell man, by your logic they should not treat people from car crashes, as they chose to drive. He was not free handling, and even if he was….how he got injured is of no concern to the ER. They are a business. They did not open as a public service they are there to make money and they are liable for the actions who they choose to employ and an employ choosing to make a diagnose without seeing the patient needs to be replaced prior to causing such a lawsuit.

I neglected to address the idiocy of your argument here...you are saying that normal, everyday activities such as driving and swimming are actually comparable to freehandling venomous snakes? There is a difference between the person who drowns while swimming (an accident, unless they were stupid, i.e. drunk, didn't know how to swim and jumped in anyway, etc.), and a person who carelessly handles dangerous animals and gets what's coming to him. Same thing with driving, it is a normal everyday behavior that is almost a neccessity to most people, freehandling isn't. Those activities, when done properly (like 99% of people do it), are pretty damn safe. Tell me how safe freehandling is. You are comparing apples and oranges, and your argument holds no validity.

Don't you got a diamondback to play with or something?

[psilocybe]

Am I condoning the doctors actions? Hell no. He should have examined your friend before he opened his mouth.

I completely agreed with you on this...the bite was mismanaged. No questions, and no arguments there...

[psilocybe]

While it is well documented that i have strong feelings agaisnt free handling, I do not think that is the issue at hand. And i honestly do not see what Chuck's handling tactics have to do with the medical management of someone else's envenomation.

You're right...my initial post was a question, "was the bite due to freehandling"...i added a caveat, "if not, this post doesn't pertain"...I never said anything about chuck personally in that first post, just my views on people crying about how incompetant doctors are when their incompentance in properly handling dangerous animals got them there in the first place. This obviously hit a tender spot with Chuck, and here we are ;)

[SCReptiles]

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes. And the culture above that can make a case against keeping snakes. I already know what you will say, I keep them for the joy of it, the ascetics, and the beauty….blah blah blah. I can’t fully appreciate something I can not touch and I personally would not have an animal I was afraid to handle. Get on your soap box and preach against me all you want. Your main point will of course be, free handlers are too much of a risk and it may lead to keeping be outlawed. It a good strong point, however, a boa keeper has just as strong of a case for people keeping venomous leading to the total outlawing of snakes. If you look at the wording of the new bans, they are not just saying venomous, they are saying dangerous snakes and outlawing the large constrictors as well. So, you are right, I shouldn’t do it. But the boa keepers that say you shouldn’t keep are right also. Luckily, we live in a country where we have rights, and I have just as much right to take the risk of free handling as you have the right to keep. And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours. And if you really think hospitals are not opened for profit, then you have no concept of reality and debating you is an exercise in futility.

[psilocybe]

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes. And the culture above that can make a case against keeping snakes. I already know what you will say, I keep them for the joy of it, the ascetics, and the beauty….blah blah blah. I can’t fully appreciate something I can not touch and I personally would not have an animal I was afraid to handle. Get on your soap box and preach against me all you want. Your main point will of course be, free handlers are too much of a risk and it may lead to keeping be outlawed. It a good strong point, however, a boa keeper has just as strong of a case for people keeping venomous leading to the total outlawing of snakes. If you look at the wording of the new bans, they are not just saying venomous, they are saying dangerous snakes and outlawing the large constrictors as well. So, you are right, I shouldn’t do it. But the boa keepers that say you shouldn’t keep are right also. Luckily, we live in a country where we have rights, and I have just as much right to take the risk of free handling as you have the right to keep. And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours. And if you really think hospitals are not opened for profit, then you have no concept of reality and debating you is an exercise in futility.

Due to the civility of your last post, I will likewise try to be as civil in my post as possible.

I have been thru this debate so many times. I am part of a subculture of venomous keepers that believes in hands on herpticulture. You are part of a subculture of herpticulture that believes in keeping venomous snakes. Herpticulture in general is part of the animal keeping subculture. And animal keepers are subculture of the culture. You can make the case it’s unsafe for me to free hand venomous snakes and that I shouldn’t do it. But the herpticulture subculture can make the case, it’s not safe to keep venomous snakes, and you shouldn’t do it. General animal keepers can make the case keeping any snake is too dangerous and that no one should keep them. That framework being laid, you can make a case against me free handling that I can not counter, but the subculture above you can make just as strong of a case against you keeping venomous snakes.

While it is true that boa keepers might be able to say, "Hey stupid, keeping venomous snakes is dangerous!", and general animal keepers might be able to say "Hey stupid, keeping snakes is dangerous", the facts remain that one of the most common of pets, dogs, kill more people in this country every year than ANY exotic pet. Numbers play into this, but if I were faced with dealing with an angry snake, or any angry dog, I'd choose the snake everytime. You are right, non-venomous keepers can argue against venomous keepers, and non-herp keepers can argue against snakes in general. They can already come up with enough arguments, illogical as they are, to which we shouldn't keep them. Why give them one more nail by which to nail our coffin shut?

The biggest reason that venomous herpeteculture is getting a bad wrap in society is irresponsibility by keepers...animals getting lose, high-profile bites, and yes, freehandling all cast a negative image of venomous keepers on society. If all keepers were responsible and qualified, the public would probably be largely blind to the hobby in general. If all keepers stocked AV instead of robbing it from zoos when something goes wrong, we'd all be better off. Accidents happen, no doubt...very qualified handlers get bitten, it's called human error. But why up the ante by freehandling? If you freehandle, sooner or later (probably sooner), you WILL be bitten. By freehandling, you virtually guarentee that outcome. Name me a freehandler who hasn't been bitten at least once (and if they continue, they are gonna rack up more). I doubt such a man (or woman) exists. By publically announcing yourself as a freehandler by posting pictures, anouncing bites on forums, and whatever else you do, you give the dissenters yet ANOTHER argument against venomous snakekeeping, because they will use the (il)logic that all or most venomous keepers take such risks and chances.

I'm all for personal freedoms. If irresponsible behavior didn't have negative consequences all across the board, I'd say to each his own. I mean, do I really care if some guy who freehandles his hot gets nailed and takes the eternal dirt nap, not really. Unless it makes everyone else who keeps venomous snakes look that stupid, which in the ignorant eye of the general public, trust me, it does. In this country, instead of stressing individual accountability, we take the actions of a few, and try and sanitize the rest of the country.

As for hospitals, obviously they make money...but it's usually the investors who are profiting, not the hospital itself. I don't know about SC, but here in NM, hospital ER's are WAY understaffed, doctors and nurses underpaid. The investors who keep the hospital running are making their wallets fat. But the local government has to subsidize the hospital costs JUST to keep it running. Trust me, ER docs do not make that much money.

This is besides the point. I never once said that a person who ends up in the ER because they were freehandling should be denied treatment. What I did say is this: It is a FACT, one that can't be argued, that the vast majority of doctors in this country are completely ignorant when it comes to treating native species bites, much less exotic. If you freehandle, you should be aware of this, and what can happen in the ER if you get bitten. The same can happen to me if I get tagged, even though I try and minimize that by using proper tools and techniques. I accept that by keeping venomous snakes, I am putting myself at some risk, as low as I might see it to be. I know that if I go into the ER with a bite, it might be mismanaged, that's just a simple fact when it comes to snakebite. Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes. By freehandling, you are increasing your chances of getting bitten, therefore increasing your chances of having your bite mismanaged, and furthermore increasing your chances of dying or being maimed. Sure, you can sue them, a matter of fact, I'd encourage it. But what amount of money in the world is gonna bring back your arm, or worse yet, your life? I don't plan on ever being bitten, but I know it's a definite possibility. I'm prepared for it, and am accepting of the consequences, including mismanagment at the hospital. I do my best to educate the doctors, but things happen, and they don't always turn out they way they are planned. By freehandling, you turn that possibility of being bitten into a guarentee. I don't have the amount of confidence in doctors that I would dramatically increase my chances of visiting them. Maybe you do.

And if I am hurt free handling, I have just as much right to medical care as you do if you are envenomatied while bagging a snake with a hook. I took excess risk in my hobby, just as you did in yours.

Here's the difference. I take measures to minimize the possibility of being bitten. What measures can you take to minimize being bitten when freehandling? I don't freehandle, so maybe I don't know, but I can't think of any...if they snake is unrestrained, it is PURELY up to the snake whether you get bitten or not. One saftey measure (though some would consider it equally as dangerous, I'll choose not to comment) that freehandlers take is self-innoculation. At least it's something

It appears that at this point, we are gonna have to agree to disagree. I will say Chuck that there are no hard feelings on this end. We already have enough enemies against the hobby as a whole, we don't need to start making ones within.

Be safe,

Abhishek Prasad

[SCReptiles]

The biggest reason that venomous herpeteculture is getting a bad wrap in society is irresponsibility by keepers...animals getting lose, high-profile bites, and yes, freehandling all cast a negative image of venomous keepers on society.
I completely agree on the irresponsible keepers and the escaped snakes. I can think of two states (TN & AL) that had laws passed due to escapes. However, I need an example of the bad press from freehandling. I do knot know of a single bit of negative pub from freehandling.
If all keepers stocked AV instead of robbing it from zoos when something goes wrong
Who paid for the AV at a zoo? Tax dollars!!! Seems I paid for that AV, so I don’t see it as robbing if I need to use something I paid for.
Name me a freehandler who hasn't been bitten at least once (and if they continue, they are gonna rack up more). I doubt such a man (or woman) exists.
Mark Kilby of the Luray Reptile Zoo. Been handling longer then I have been alive and never bitten. www.lurayzoo.com
http://www.lurayzoo.com/images/jkgrn.jpg
As for hospitals, obviously they make money...but it's usually the investors who are profiting, not the hospital itself. I don't know about SC, but here in NM, hospital ER's are WAY understaffed, doctors and nurses underpaid. The investors who keep the hospital running are making their wallets fat.
Investors open hospitals for profit, doctors become doctors for profit. That is pure and simple. If the Dr they hire are incompetent, then it will affect the bottom line of the investors.
I will say Chuck that there are no hard feelings on this end. We already have enough enemies against the hobby as a whole, we don't need to start making ones within.
I completely agree.
I've been reading the posts that have been going back and forth, and stayed out of it, as I really don't know anything about the topic. That's sorta the point of this pm. You said that you free handle hots religiously, and I'm just curious about that aspect. What religion decrees, or at least praises, free handling serpents? If you want, just point me in the direction of a good paper or something to read. Thanks in advance.
There seems to be a misconception here. I am not a religious serpent handler, though I know many of them. Some are friends. They are a fundamental Christian sect. They base it on Mark 16:18. They take up serpents, drink poison, and speak in tongues. All part of the signs described by Mark. The thing is, these were special powers granted only to the first century Christians who did not have a bible to validate what they were saying. It’s not a power we can claim today, but they do not see it that way. They do not understand time lines….if they read it in black and white, you can’t convince them otherwise. Serpent handling has been going on throughout history, but it was brought into the public eye by George Went Hensley, some time around 1900. He made the practice popular right here in my hometown. I have probably done more research on it then anyone. I will be publishing a paper I co-authored with a PHD theologian in a couple of weeks. He addresses the theology of it and I address the herpetology. When the work is done, I will post it on ssnakess.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Snakes.html
http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1976/v33-3-article2.htm
http://www.chuckconner.com/serpenthandling1.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html
http://www.les.appstate.edu/courses/appalachia/religion/snake.htm
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/pentecostal/snakeskill-fool.html
P.S. How's your friend doing?
Full recovery. Finger still stiff, but otherwise fine. As I was saying, the Dr was correct, it was not a threatening bit, but she had no way of knowing that when she made the call.

[psilocybe]

Who paid for the AV at a zoo? Tax dollars!!! Seems I paid for that AV, so I don’t see it as robbing if I need to use something I paid for.


I started a long diatribe about this one particular comment, but decided to simplify it. I can't agree with this comment. Zoo AV is for one purpose: to protect the zoo's employees who work with venomous reptiles in the event of a bite, not the general public. Those keepers pay taxes too, hence they have as much of a right to the AV as you claim to have (actually more, considering that snakebite is a job hazard, not a consequence of the hobby), and if you use it up, they are the ones screwed. How would you feel if a zoo keeper got tagged doing his JOB (hopefully he wouldn't have been freehandling, ;) ), and there was no AV because you used it for a bite you sustained during freehandling? Exotic AV can take up to months to restock, depending on many variables. In this time, zoo keepers lives are in danger if their AV is used up. In addition, you are claiming ownership to zoo AV. Therefore, every other tax payer who happens to keep venomous, by your logic, is entitled to this AV as well. Do you really feel it's the zoos responsiblity to cover all these people, when the state (if the state actually pays for it, I've never heard of this, maybe just in SC?) only provides them with enough money for a very small amount of AV (i.e. a few moderate bites)? What are their keepers supposed to do? I will ask Terry Phillip about this, he is curator of the Black Hills Reptile Park in South Dakota, and they house and display one of the most impressive collections of venomous snakes in North America (including all 3 species of Oxyuranus).

As for the guy who's never been tagged, well, ya got me there. If he regularly freehandles and has not been tagged, he is an anomaly. I highly doubt there are many (if any) more people like him.

Regardless, you see things your way and I see them mine. I will handle hots with hooks, you will handle them with your hands. Hopefully neither of us will be getting tagged.

[SCReptiles]

Zoo AV is for one purpose: to protect the zoo's employees who work with venomous reptiles in the event of a bite, not the general public.
A lot of what we have discussed up to this point has only been opinion, with no means to prove you or I right or wrong….however, at this point you are completely wrong and it very easy to prove. The ONLY way exotic AV, SIMAR, for example can be imported into the United States is via an experimental medicine permit. The language of this permit is very clear. The ownership of the medicine is the researching physician and further more, the permit clearly states the medicine must be made available to ANYONE in the event of an emergency.
Those keepers pay taxes too, hence they have as much of a right to the AV as you claim to have (actually more, considering that snakebite is a job hazard, not a consequence of the hobby)
I am the director of herpetology at the local nature center, so I am sure you would have no problems with me using AV, since working with snake is part of my job. Good to know I have your support.
every other tax payer who happens to keep venomous, by your logic, is entitled to this AV as well.
Exactly, if you pay taxes, you paid for that AV if its at a public zoo. If you needed, you have the legal right to it, as provided in the permits system and you have the moral right to it, as you paid for it in the first place.
maybe just in SC?)
Why do you keep talking about SC? I clearly told you I live in TN…are you not paying attention?
As for the guy who's never been tagged, well, ya got me there. If he regularly freehandles and has not been tagged, he is an anomaly. I highly doubt there are many (if any) more people like him.
Wrong again!!! How many shall I name for you?
Why would you make statements like this? You are so incorrect it’s obvious you have not done any research on the matter. How many freehandlers do you even know? If you want to debate, do a little research and get back to me.

[BWSmith]

Uggh. I hate to jump in again but i just a side note. I have met dozens of freehandlers. I have never met one that has not been envenomated. I am sure that they are out there, but I have not met a single one.

[SCReptiles]

not true BW...you have met at least two that i know of. i am not dropping their names, but they are always with me...you know them. both free handle, nither has ever been bit. and i could list probably 10 more on top of them.

[davo]

I can't understand the phobia like "anti-freehandling" attitude of some some of the forum members. I don't see any evidence of freehandlers trying to force anybody else to do likewise so why all the fuss. If you freehandle go for it, if you don't then don't.