Social Services vs Reptiles...help?

[Youkai]

Some close friends of mine are having some problems.

These people are foster parents, and amazing individuals.
The social worker, companies,and everyone involved have seen their house. Where the animals are, what they are, where the kids are, etc. They never hid anything, and have often offered extra information.

Recently they've had some issues. A social worker has now decided that the animals are unsafe.
Now my friends are in hot water - the company and government are threatening to take the kids away on the grounds that this couple are doing something horribly wrong. They've been given the excuse that they never showed the animals, that they are dangerous animals, and that they are against the law to own! None of these are true.
The reptiles in question are:
Bearded dragons
collared lizards
veileds
leopard geckos
ball pythons
two iguanas
a box turtle
a columbian red tail
crested geckos

All the animals are in a locked bedroom that the kids are not allowed entry to, and the cages are locked themselves!
They are kept very clean and are well looked after. There is always someone home to supervise.

Can anyone offer any help, ideas, or suggestions?
They've been told specifically that the reason this is a problem is simply because they are reptiles, and they aren't comfortable with it. Though they have seen the animals themselves previously...

No laws are being broken. The children are safe. It's a case of prejudice, and people in power and pushing this garbage even though they have nothing but their status to fall back on. Any ideas and information are appreiciated.

I will absolutely not disclose any more information about this. Trust me that these animals are legal in this province, and local laws have been reviewed.

[nouserpif]

Hmmm... sounds really stupid. Almost like discrimination... I can't believe that...

Sorry this post wasn't too helpful, but if you do a little research, and throw some things together and print it off, and maybe get a few government sites that state which animals ARN'T allowed in the province, that might show them, but that has probably been done... If you show them the information saying they are safe/legal in writing somewhere, that will probably help... Just like the ottowa Tarantula ban, people who know nothign about the questioned creatures should have zero input whatsoever.

Dan Conner

[AaliahReed]

My friend is a psyc, and she said to tell you that in aust, some govenment dept's feel the same, here are some ideas that she has suggested you try:

1) gather documentation to prove that all species are non venomous,

2) get copies of all council laws,that pertain to the keeping of these reptiles,

3)gather as many personal testimony's as possible, as to the security of the children, and the lockable room,

4) proceed with caution, gather as much written documentation as possible,


do not allow emotions to get involved, the more professionable the presentation the better,

hope this was of help to you,
goodluck,

[Jaylyn]

I have friends and family who are amazing foster parents. The destruction child welfare can do to the kids and their foster families is amazing. :( Ignorance seems to run rampant in that department (my heartfelt apologies for any responsible case workers). Lying to covers their rear-ends is certainly not unheard of. I think your friends are probably in for an uphill fight ... though I hope it's not the case. Encourage them to document EVERYTHING. In case you didn't notice - my emotions run a little high on this subject.
Jaylyn

[Cas]

Something else they may want to do, is get the reptiles all tested for salmonella count (something our zoo here has to do before any reptiles can have any contact with the public). When the reptiles are all shown to be non-venemous, and not a health risk, it would be awfully hard for someone to say they were 'dangerous'.

Dawn

[beth wallbank]

Seems that the 'system' is working its powers once again. I am sorry that your friend has to deal with the idiots that are in charge of the safety and welbeing of these kids. First of all, your friends need to realize that the system has failed, countless times over. Hence the increase in youth violence, crime including murder and teen runaways. The 'system' has been in hotwater on thousands of occasions, and is just using your friends' livelyhood as a scapegoat. The people that are suppose to be looking out for these children's best interest haven't the slightest clue about children other than what they read in school, heck, half of them aren't even married, never mind have children of thier own.
What your friends need to do, is to stop, take a deep breath, and then start playing the 'systems' game. First of all, the only reason these people are being harassed is because of the nagativity the 'system' has earned for themselves. They need all the brownie points in the spotlight they can.
I think it's time that your friends start to fight fire with fire.
First of all, your friends need to collect any information they can pertaining to the species of animals that they have in thier care. The goods and the bads on each of them. The 'system' doesn't like dealing with facts. They seem to have a hard time toeing the line when being put on the spot.
Depending on how long your friends have been foster parents, they need to find proof somehow of when they began collecting herps, in comparison to when they became fosterparents. They need to have this especially to prove to the worker that she is in fact mistaken about the reptiles being in the home when the children were placed with your friend. They need to catch this worker in her own mistakes. If the reptiles were in fact in the home before these children were placed with your friend, and the system has rules pretaining to reptiles being in homes, then she would herself be in hot water, as she was supposeably the one who did the home check before the children moved in. She was the one that made the house 'safe' with her manditory housecheck.
Your friends also need to have documentation of how they keep these animals, and what precautions they take to ensure that they are unaccessable to the children in question. They need to have all documentation for any interaction these children may have with the reptiles. They will need city bylaws and CITIES documentation on each and every animal in thier possession.
And to fight the fire with fire, your friends need to think about contacting the media. Whether it be newspaper or tv, no matter. The 'system' hates the negative spotlight. It seems that the only time they are in the news is when they have once again screwed up. With all this information that they have gathered they need to give the facts to someone that is bias....ie, the public. With the workers and the 'system' being asked to show the public the harm that these children are in, they are either going to give fact or fiction. And trust me, the public knows the difference between the two.
Your friends have to realize that in the end of all of thier battle here, the children may infact be pulled from thier home. Are they willing to have this happen? They are more than likely going to have to seek legal help. Are they willing to do this? They are also going to have to leave thier emotions aside throughout this and stick to the facts. There is nothing the 'system' uses more than preying on the feelings of those in question. Your friends are going to have dirt spilled on them, both good and bad, and they need to remain calm to support this.
I hope in the end, your friends see through this with positive results. They need to know that they aren't the first ones that the 'system' has tried to make an example of, and certainly not the last.
This is just my personal honest opinion, and I hope that all goes good in the end. Tell your friends happy herping and don't give up on what they love to do.....both with the kids and the herps.
All the best to your friends and thier family.

[Youkai]

Thanks for all the advice guys. If they haven't seen it already, I'll run this by the people in question. :)

[Rebecca]

Tell your friends to go to their local foster parent association and get some support from them to fight this. Also they might want to consider getting rid of the snakes (can hurt a child)and the turtle (can pass on dieases) I know the animals are probally taken care of but they might want to try that. I'm sorry this is happening to them it's not fair. My bio parents are foster parents and I have some lizards and have never run into this. Hope this might help.

[Youkai]

Any animal has the potential to hurt a child. I'd say a dog running around the house is far more likely to hurt a child then reptiles, in locked tanks, in a locked room.
There is also a higher chance of the children coming into contact with malignant virus/bacteria outside, from mammalian pets, school, outside, etc then animals that are kept clean, vet checked, and under lock and key.

[V.aw]

well like the old saying says:
"one spoils it for us all"



reptiles have had a history of not mixing with children, and these people have them and children.

all of the very stupid people who do not care properly for their reptiles and endanger their children, is the reason why your friends are having problems.

*** in no way am i saying your friends are stupid, its just unfortunate that some peopl eare and it ruins it for everyone. :(

[ReneeB]

I might be able to help.. I just had to provide proof to a judge about my pets being safe. My case is supposed to be over in the next few [twoish] weeks. If they want I can get a copy of to ruling giving me custody of my son back [long story short, my ex kidnapped him] WITH herps in the home. AND with Children's Aid and the Office Of the Children's Lawyer both giving reports that my home is safe even with Herps in it. Just for the report I have cornsnakes, had ball pythons, have pinesnakes, have white line geckos, have leopard geckos, breed rats and gerbils and they knew we are getting a pair of BCC or BCIs.

Just let me know:)

[Rebecca]

I just don't understand why herps are so different from say a cat or a dog. You hear everyday how d family dog just suddenly out of the blue attacks a child or an adult for that fact, but everyone is scared of a little lizard?? Ok so some are bigger then a little lizard but that does not mean that their evil. Youkai let us know how things go for your friends.

[tex_01]

I say as long as the herp cant get out then it should be fine.I think that as long as the children cant be seroisly harmed by these herps then it is all right. Even a dog can hurt a child but they dont complain about dogs.

[Rebecca]

Actually they do. A fellow foster home's dog was startled by a child and it snaped at the kid and bruised it. Didn't break the skin and the kid even said it was not the dog's fault. The dog was sleeping soundly in the hall and the kid just kinda bumped it and scared it. The scocial workers decided they had to choose the kids or the dog. It was a total accident. When your scared out of sleep the first thing you do is want to lash out (well I do at least!) But this will be a happy ending for the home. The parent is adopting the kids so a family friend has to the dog until it's final!!

[Grant vg]

Sorry to hear about your friends situation.

One thing that popped in my head while reading this was the idea of contacting a few local organizations/stores that actually do presentations for kids using reptiles.

I know we have a few around here in toronto, and depending on the individual in charge, they may be interested in helping out publically, whether in the media or in court.
If not publically, im sure they would be glad to submit a written statement along with pictures, etc...
I would also prepare myself to deal with any ignorant accusations regarding kids and reptiles and have proof to back things up.
Educate yourself on the facts of salmonella, snake escapes, and victims of snake/reptile related accidents.

I would seriously consider, starting now, to find someone in your local area or surrounding of great authority or experience in the hobby to help you if things go to the courtroom.
Its always nice to be more prepared then neccessary, or there will always be that feeling of things you possibly could have done, but now its too late kind of thing.
Goodluck to you!