Abnormal Hatchlings

[geckomom]

Altho I've kept leos for a while, I've only recently started to try breeding. Got my first hatchling in March, and it's normal, eating well and growing fast. The second hatchling (from a different female, same male) hatched out about 2 weeks ago, and both its front legs sort of turned under its belly and tho there was movement in the shoulders, the lower legs/feet seemed to have no movement. It also had deformities to its jaw and was missing one eye. I felt I had no choice but to euthanize it.

My next two hatched out three days ago, one seems like a normal, one an albino. They both seem totally healthy, the albino has already had its first shed and the normal looks to be shedding in the next day or so.

The next hatchling hatched out yesterday, and tho it seems otherwise normal, the eyes look very small and its tail is short and stubby, but has a little curled tip at the end.

I incubated the eggs at 81-82 F, and my male (Tremper giant yellow-phase albino) appears totally normal, as do my females.

I can understand the occasional abnormal hatchling, but I'm wondering if there's something I might be doing to contribute to 2 abnormal hatchlings in so short a time, and with so few hatchlings.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks..........

bobbie

[king nick]

well, no clue to why it is happening

I started breeding last year and I had one with a short stubby tail with a curled tip to.........my friend now ownes it and it seems healthy in every way.....

nick

[DragnDrop]

Sounds like a Vitamin A/Calcium imbalance to me. Too much Ca interferes with absorption of Vit A. Low Vit A leads to eye and bone deformities and a few other things like rough skin and constant bad sheds. I've posted about this before, maybe I can still dig it up later when I get a chance.

[DragnDrop]

Found it ... went easier than I thought. ;) Originally this was posted in reply to using TUMS etc. as a Ca supplement, but it applies to any Ca supplements and Vitamin A.



Here's what a shortage of Vitamin A can do.

VITAMIN A - PROVEN BENEFITS

Promotes bone growth, teeth development, reproduction.
Helps form and maintain healthy skin, hair, mucous membranes.
Builds body's resistance to respiratory infections.

What this vitamin does
Essential for normal function of retina. Combines with purple pigment of retina (opsin) to
form rhodopsin, which is necessary for sight in partial darkness.
Necessary for growth of bone, testicular function, ovarian function, embryonic development,
regulation of growth, differentiation of tissues.


VITAMIN AINTERACTION WITH OTHER SUBSTANCES
Antacids decrease absorption of Vitamin A and fat-soluble vitamins D, E, K.

So, what does this mean as far as gecko husbandry is concerned?

Note.... it's necessary for embryonic development, and proper functions of the reproductive
functions in males and females. Also, antacids can decrease absorption.
Antacids are normally calcium based. That suggests excess calcium in the digestive tract can
block absorption of Vitamin A and D (I won't worry about E & K here). With a shortage of Vitamin
D you can get MBD symptoms even though there is ample calcium available. It's easy to increase
the calcium available, dusting more often, even to the point of 'icing' the bugs with calcium,
all of which just puts more 'antacid' into the system. Less and less Vitamin A & D is
available.... a vicious circle. The result is a gecko with possible MBD even though it's on
calcium substrate and gets calcium supplement. AND you have .... a severe shortage of Vitamin A.
You can't see the vitamin A shortage easily, except for possibly poor vision and/or aim when
hunting. Rough skin is usually shrugged off as a 'bit of a bad shed' and hope it works better
next time. If not.... well, we'll just remove the stuck skin with a cotton pad. And so the
circle continues.... more calcium, less vitamin A & D.
The next big worry is the Next Generation. They're hatched tiny, short tails, missing or
deformed eyelids, a pouch-like flap of skin under the chin, weak, poor vision or even blind. It
gets shrugged off as 'one of those things, it does happen even in the wild".
Who'da thunk it could be traced to excess calcium?

[Betty Miskie]

So, if you use Miner-All (multi-mineral supplement) do you still give them calcium? I keep straight calcium in their enclosure (especially the breeders) and shake and bake the bugs with this powder as well as add it to the babyfood (not every time). Am I over doing the calcium? In your opinion, should I keep/not keep this practice. I have been confused when I switched to this specific brand.
Betty

[DragnDrop]

I use Miner-All I for all the reptiles, no other mineral supplement needed. It's got all the Ca and D3 they need. For leos I put some in a bottle lid and let them help themselves. The exception is hatchlings since they still have to learn that trick, so I also dust their food the first month or so. Once I notice they're helping themselves, I phase out the dusting over a few weeks.

Miner-All O & I are only mineral supplements, you still have to use vitamins. My preference is for Herptivite but there are several decent brands. Once a week I'll dust bugs with the vitamins. For fruit eaters like cresties, it gets added to the fruit mix.

[Betty Miskie]

Thanks Hilde. I actually thought they still needed extra calcium so I leave a dish in with the cresties. I guess that saves one less dish for me to clean as I will take it out. I do use Herptivite as well and will continue with that practice.
Thanks again,
Betty

[geckomom]

Originally posted by king nick
well, no clue to why it is happening

I started breeding last year and I had one with a short stubby tail with a curled tip to.........my friend now ownes it and it seems healthy in every way.....

nick

king nick, thanks for the info. Altho I'm still a bit worried about these defects, it made me feel a bit better that someone else has seen this tail abnormality. The smallish eyes on mine still concern me, and I'll watch it carefully, but the tail defect doesn't bother me, as it doesn't seem it would affect the gecko's quality of life. Obviously, if it lives and seems to have adequate eyesight to find prey, it will never be used for breeding.

Originally posted by DragnDrop
Sounds like a Vitamin A/Calcium imbalance to me. Too much Ca interferes with absorption of Vit A. Low Vit A leads to eye and bone deformities and a few other things like rough skin and constant bad sheds. I've posted about this before, maybe I can still dig it up later when I get a chance.

Hilde, the info you provided was really valuable, and sounds like a good place to start. But...now I have a few more questions concerning Vitamin A/Calcium imbalance, if you don't mind.

I keep a dish of Bone-Aid (strictly calcium carbonate) with my breeding adults. I dust about twice a week with Reptivite (vitamin) and also the Bone-Aid. Since the geckos started laying this year, they've had about 6 eggs with very soft, thin shells that look fertile when i candle them, but never develop strong shells and shrivel up fairly quickly. That's why I started with the extra calcium dustings.

Do you think I might need to change the products I use, or use a different schedule for dusting, or maybe do without the dish of calcium for my breeders? Balancing the vitamins/minerals is a bit confusing to me, tho the adult breeders seem healthy enough, but with these egg/hatchling problems, there's obviously an imbalance of some sort.

I was also wondering if, since these eggs/hatchlings are all from different females, there's a chance that my male has some bad genes that are expressing themselves? I know there's nothing to do about that but to stop using him for a "daddy".

Since there's not too much I can do about the genetic angle except retire Rafferty (the male), would you mind giving me a bit more advice on vitamin/calcium supplementation? That seems to be the best place to start out.

Thanks! :D

bobbie

[DragnDrop]

I'll see what I can dig up about Bone-Aid, since I've never used it, I have no clue what it's really all about. I used to have all kinds of articles saved on the computer, but a couple of weeks ago I took the PC in to the 'experts' to fix a problem and they took the quick and dirty route, reformat and didn't ask me if there was anything worth saving first. So now I've got to go through stacks of CDs, floppies and zip disks to find all my very clearly unmarked ;) backup copies of things. I might find the info I'm looking for in no time, or it could be a while, but I'll check.

[geckomom]

Originally posted by DragnDrop
I'll see what I can dig up about Bone-Aid,

I didn't mean for you to start doing research on this product, dont' want you doing my research for me:o !

The jar says it's a microstick calcium powder, it's a T-Rex product, ingredients are: calcium carbonate (no Vit D or other minerals or vits). The instructions say to dust at every feeding for growing juveniles and gravid females, and once or twice a week for mature adult reptiles. Apparently the "microstick" refers to it being extra fine particles which adhere better to the prey items and make it more easily digested by the reptiles.

I certainly appreciate all your help, as I don't want to either over- or under-dose my geckos, because i know either one can create problems.

You said you use Miner-all and it works well for you? I gather for adults you don't dust their insects with it, you just leave it in the dish for them to "self-serve"?

Maybe it would be easier for me to just use that, since it's worked well for you, and I know it's available at the stores I go to.

bobbie

[DragnDrop]

Go get a big mug of coffee (or tall glass of wine if you're Linda ;) ) then settle back and read. I could have chopped it into several posts but there's a lot of cross-referencing, so may as well put it all in one.


There's always a chance that deformities are genetic. If all the problem hatchlings are from only one female, it could very well be her problem alone, either genetics or otherwise. If eggs from all the females are producing problem hatchlings then it could still be husbandry/supplementation, but also genetics from either parent, but most likely the father, the common denominator in all the babies.

The trouble is trying to figure out just what the problem is. If you make changes to the supplementation at this point in the breeding season, you might not find out this year if it worked or was the problem. It takes time for the adjustments to take effect and the girls might be done breeding by then, you'd have to wait for next year. Changing males might not give much info this year either. Since the girls can retain sperm, it's not guaranteed the new male will be the father of the new eggs. Unless you get a male who's going to contribute genes that will make it obvious who the father is just by looking at the hatchlings, you won't know who's the daddy. If your current male has fathered healthy offspring before, I would start with supplementation, unless there's a different morph/phase male available to produce 'different' offspring.


As far as supplementation goes, this is something to think about:

Reptivite contains active vitamin A from animal sources while Herptivite contains the vitamin A precursor beta-carotene. The active Vitamin A can potentially be overdosed, while this danger is eliminated with Herptivite which uses a beta carotene source. Beta carotene is converted to Vit A as needed, no overdose can happen. Overdosing with vitamin A can result in depression of calcium metabolism. Long-term intake of high levels of vitamin A (excluding Vitamin A produced from beta-carotene) may increase the risk of osteoporosis, or what we call MBD in our reptiles. In other words, excess Ca can result in a shortage of Vitamin A, but the reverse is also true -excess A can slow absorption of Ca. That's why it's so important not to overdose any vitamin or mineral supplement. No matter which one you're talking about, there's another one that will help or hinder it's absorption by the body, just depends on the amount of each that you're supplying. If in doubt, offer less. Vitamins and minerals are easier to overdose than not get enough of. They are stored way longer than we normally would imagine. Any excess fat-soluble vitamin gets stored, the water-soluble ones get flushed. It's quite easy to live a healthy life with a the stored supply at only half-full or less, but it can be fatal to have an 'overflow' situation.

Consider the size of a typical multi-vitamin mineral supplement pill for humans. One single pill has enough goodies in it for an adult human, bit it a 100 pound ballerina or a 250 pound lumberjack, there's enough there to keep them both supplemented properly. Compare the body mass of either one to that of a typical adult leopard. How much of that vitamin/mineral pill would you think the leopard needs to be properly supplemented? Probably just a few crumbs of one pill a couple times a week, if that? Now consider how much product is in a container of Reptivite, Herptivite, Miner-All and all the others we can buy. How long does one of those containers last you? If you have fewer than maybe 25 adult leos to supplement all year and fewer than 50 or 60 babies/juveniles for a few months before they're sold, then one container of vitamins or minerals should last you a year or maybe longer, might even expire before you use it all up. When I dusted the food for the leos, I'd go through a container in a few months. Once I started letting them (adults) help themselves, I noticed they used way less than I thought they would. At first I even thought they weren't eating it since it took so long for them to use it up, I'd replace the old with new just so it wasn't stale. I finally realized they were licking it up, but they didn't need as much as I thought they would. My leos (and other reptiles) get way less supplementation now than when I first started out, and they're just as healthy, if not more so, than when I was loading on the calcium and vitamins. Even the manufacturers will say to use a 'small amount', or 'lightly coat' the insects, but most of us tend to ice the bugs to an unrecognizable lifeform, moving snowbanks of calcium or vitamins.

Cutting back on supplementation to a more realistic amount will help balance the amount of Vit A and Ca (and others) so they don't interfere with each other. I don't know how much you are actually giving your geckos, I'm just (stupidly?) assuming you're like the rest of us who have been going by the accepted practise of "a little is good, a lot is better".

Since you're supplying Ca via the Bone-aid, and D3 with the Reptivite, they should be able to absorb the Ca and use it for the shells. The thin shells could be from not getting enough Ca, or as mentioned, too much Vit A which interferes with the Ca being absorbed. Of course, it could also be too much Ca and/or Vit D3 producing a 'fake' MBD which is first showing in the thin shelled eggs. The whole balance thing is so tricky in some ways. It's hard for us to know how much of what they need, that's why I let them decide. I supply the stuff, let them pick what they want, when and how much. I also never used Bone-aid, and haven't used Reptivite in years, so I'm limited in what I can say about them. I started using Miner-All and Herptivite way back when and haven't had problems with them. I'd read enough testimonials and contacted a few 'big names' in gecko breeding and decided if it works for them, I'll use it too. I'm not implying the other products don't work, all I'm saying is that the ones I use work well for me and my gang, and I know they're getting what they need with the schedule and routine I use. If you're using different products, you'd have to experiment to see just what is causing the problems you're seeing - either adjust the supplementation, or replace the male. One or both should do the trick, but it could take a few months or even until next year before you find out what it is.

(I should mention, this is all assuming you didn't have an incubator problem - temperature spikes or drops, and the parents are healthy, can't be passing on some virus, bacteria or parasites to the embryo via the eggs.)

[geckomom]

I totally understand when you say that any change in supplementation, or even a change of male gecko, will take quite a long time to become evident if it's helping or not. The thing I'm most worried about is if I'm over or underdosing my geckos with Ca/Vits, as apart from the egg/hatchling problems, the situation can't be good for my adult geckos, and could maybe eventually lead to serious health problems.

I have six females and one mail, along with one (healthy) hatchling from March and the three new hatchlings, and I don't breed to "sell", my set-up is in no way extravagant, and I'm not looking to be a high volume producer or improve morphs or discover new morphs. It's just a real interest for me, that's helping me learn more about gecko husbandry, and have the fun/learning experience of having a low number of hatchlings so I could go that one step farther than just keeping geckos. Fortunately, there's a very good petshop (not a chain) near my house who take wonderful care of their animals, who will take the babies off my hands. My boys also have a few friends with some herp experience who might be able to adopt some. I really don't want to contribute to any of the geckos, either my adults, or hatchlings, having a lousy quality of life, nor can i see continuing to hatch out babies with severe defects that have to be put down.

Your info on supplementation is very good. There's probably nothign wrong (hopefully) with the products I'm using, but since you and many others have had success with Miner-All and Herptivite, I think I'm going to get some and use that instead of what I have. My supplements do go a long way, and I don't tend to "glop" the dusting on the crickets, etc. I figure they're gutloaded also, so I dust lightly.

I probably need to cut down on the dusting to once a weekwith Reptivite? And then just leave the dish of Miner-All so they can help themselves? With the hatchlings, tho, since as you mentioned they don't get the hang of the cal dish for awhile, do you recommend dusting with Ca/Vits at every feeding still, at least til they get the hang of the dish? And just to make sure I've got the idea, for the adults, you dust your crickets w/Herptivite once a week, and just leave the Miner-All in the dish?

I really love the education that comes with keeping these geckos! The only part I don't like is that during the learning phase, it's so easy to get bad outcomes. I really hate to be responsible for bad outcomes. I think I'll change over to your methods, and hope with time, things straighten out.

Thanks so much for all the information, and the invitation for coffee or wine before reading your post. Unfortunately I had to stick with the coffee, cause I wouldn't have been able to read/understand the post when unconscious, and at my age, wine is a wonderful sleeping pill!:rolleyes: :bugged:

If you wouldn't mind just giving a quick reply to the couple extra questions I've brought up, I'd so appreciate it, and thanks again for your help. All my geckos: Rafferty, Morrigan, Aoife, Niamh, Grian, Sorcha, and Ciar (adults), Ceadghin (juvie), and the 3 hatchlings (nameless so far) also send their sincere thanks!:D

bobbie

[DragnDrop]

Um, hmm, ... I thought I'd gotten all the questions answered. I guess I missed a few. I'll get to them in a bit, have to figure out what I didn't get to in all the spouting off I did in the long reply.
I did send you some info via PM that might be of interest.