Small snake for 2 foot enclosure?

[Missy]

Hi
I have a precision cage that measures 2 feet long and 20 inches wide and around 14 inches high.
I recently put my High white Ca king into a 55 gallon tank and looking for a smallish size snake that you actually see here and there that wont outgrow that size cage and be happy there not cramped.
I have a few choices African house snake (male)-New Mexican milk-scarlet kingsnake. I dont have any preference for any type snake but not venemous .
I prefer a snake that you see and doesnt hide 24/7 any suggestions ?
The cage is nicely decorated with climbing sticks,hide areas and would like a snake that would enjoy this here and thee my CA king was very active but got big so put him in 55 gallon tank.
Thanks.
Missy

[lolaophidia]

How about a male Western Hognose? They stay small and are interesting to watch. They also seem to be more active during the day, unlike most of my constrictors.

I keep African House snakes also, but I haven't noticed that males are any smaller than females (my last adult male was over 3 foot).

A Scarlet king is likely to want to hide all the time.

I don't have any experience with New Mexico Milks, but most of the milks I've worked with were pretty shy- other than Sinaloans.

[Missy]

Thats a snake I know nothing about but now going to research them. I think they are toad eaters but again I know close to nothing about them going to look them up now.
If you have kept them please tell me about them but if not the suggestion is great. My friend has a pueblan and tho great looking hides 24/7.
I am going to look for info on them.
thanks

Missy

[lolaophidia]

Western Hognose readily take mice (mine have never seen anything else). Typical Colubrid temperature requirements, 74 cool side 82-85 hot side, and do fine with low to moderate humidity. They have some very unusual defensive behaviours compared to the rat snakes and king/milk snakes I keep. That's what attracted me to them in the first place. And that turned up nose is just funny to look at.

Here are a few care sheets for general information.


Western Hognose care sheet (http://coloherp.org/careshts/snakes/hognose.php)

Care sheet #2 (http://www.baars.org/hognose.html)

Care sheet #3 (http://my.pclink.com/~dkelley/hognose.htm)

And here's a pic of my little bluffer...
http://photos.herphost.com/albums/userpics/sm%20image%20m%20WHognose6_070604.JPG

[Missy]

Thanks for the care sites. The females I see get bigger than the males what size do your males average and do you see them much one site said they enjoy their privacy which I gather to mean you dont see them much?
My cage is only 24 inches long and 20 wide these snakes seem stocky built tho they are kept in 10 gallon tanks in the care sites so I guess thats okay.
I wonder why they arent to popular. I havent read much about them. I like giving a snake room not just any size enclosure after my CA king began to get close to 3 feet I put him in a 55 gallon so still have this cage which works great.
How many western hogs do you keep?

Thanks

Missy

[lolaophidia]

My current male Western Hognose is about 2 foot long and is active other when he's recently fed or getting ready to shed (like most snakes). I've also got a female, she's close to 3 foot long (talk about the odd couple). They do like a hiding place, but as the picture I posted shows, the male will crawl right out of the cage when I open it, to see what's going on. Very inquisitive little guy. They also hiss loudly when startled and will flatten their heads slightly in an attempt to intimidate you. Once they realize that doesn't work, they settle down and start roaming around.

Hognose are a more stocky and less muscular snake than a king or a rat snake, and since they aren't a constrictor, they have a different feel to them when you handle them. They don't grip you, they just kind of sit on you.

As far as why they aren't more popular, well, they aren't as common in the trade as kings or cornsnakes. They are becoming more readily available though, from what I've seen. They aren't a "pretty" snake. I think of them as the funny looking snake with the great personality (as far as snakes can have a personality that is).

[Missy]

I saw some amazing tri color hognose snakes using the links from the sites you gave me. I imagine those are pricey.
Never knew such colors existed for hognose snakes. Out of all the snakes you keep since you said you keep house snakes to you find these the best tempermeant wise?
I read house snakes easy going unless you try to hold them by their heads?
I was suprised your male was 3 feet. Do you house yours together? I know kings/milks think house snakes to eat other snakes but dont think hognose snakes not from what I read anyway.
thanks

[lolaophidia]

The tri colors are from South America and are about triple the price of a Western Hognose. I've looked at those also, but I'm waiting for the price to come down abit... I don't know that they exhibit the same range of defensive behavior that the North American species do as they aren't that closely related.

I keep 12 different species of snakes at the moment and there's a lot of variety in temperament even within the same species. I keep all of them in separate housing other than during introduction for breeding. It makes feeding a much simpler operation and also makes it easier to deal with any health issues when it's one snake at a time vs. both kept in the same tank. I think it's less stressful also, since they aren't competing for the best hide spots or basking areas.

African House snakes are generally easy going, but my adult female will bite if I'm careless reaching around her in the cage and startle her (she's fine once out). One of my juveniles is kind of psycho (he's a black phase). He does a lot of thrashing around when ever I pull him out of the cage and will open his mouth to bite. He's so small though, it's not a concern. They do also have very strong feeding responses, and when feeding it's best to keep fingers well out of range.
Here's a pic of my sweetest little African House snake...
http://photos.herphost.com/albums/userpics/new%20red%20AHS5_031604.JPG

[Missy]

Nice looking house snake. I didnt know there were black types. I have seen albino and green but only in pics.
Those Tropical tri color hognose are very pretty. They look like milk/king snakes but different faces. They are expensive tho but amazing looking.
I read about those mandarin rat snakes you keep in a back issue of Reptile magazine. They are great looking tho to big for me and seem a bit delicate not like our Native rat snakes.
I looked into the white Texas ratsnake before I got my CA king but as you know those are super nippy.
Right now narrowed my choices to hognose-new mex milk or thayer mex king.

Missy

[Topaz]

Hi Missy,
I just adopted a male mexican milksnake from a friend and he is almost fully grown and living in a 15 gallon tank with a big water dish he can hide under, a couple tree stumps (one is a house as well) and some decorative vines. He is very cute and easily handled as he was well cared for by my friend. he seems pretty comfy in this tank and if you use a red bulb in the heat lamp he comes out during the day and evening. :)

My next snake (but not for a bit) will definatly be a hognose. I fell inlove with them at the september 03 show!

[Missy]

Thanks. I found out hognose snakes arent allowed in my area they can be seized in shipping because rear fanged snakes are banned here.
Not garters but hognose,mangroves,night snakes and a few others. So I decided on a mex milk or a new mex milk. I know the babies will be up for sale within a month or two.
I am glad you see him because I thought they hid non stop but either way thats the snake I am going to get.
I initialy wanted a male hognose as they seem neat but found out all rear fanged snakes banned. Mex Milks are great looking tho.
I found a breeder to in the area but no babies yet. Thats good that you see yours. My friend has a pueblan that hides 24/7 and if you handle him he faints.
I should have him withing 1 to 45 days as I want to make sure he eats for the breeder before I buy him.
I opted for a male as read they are smaller in this snake group than females.
thanks .
Missy

[Topaz]

Hi Missy,
He does hide a lot but I do see him out and slithering around, he has been in shed the last few days and using the silicon to help get the skin off, so he has been out alot! Also I can handle him easily and when I change the water each day and do cage maintence I take him out and hold him for a bit. He is rather calm. I understand not all are like this but if your getting a baby and find one with a good disposition and handle it regularly it should get used to it. Definatly use the red light.
Not an expert though, as I havent had him long, but I am already thrilled with this type of snake. Good luck with your baby search!

[Missy]

Originally posted by Topaz
Hi Missy,
He does hide a lot but I do see him out and slithering around, he has been in shed the last few days and using the silicon to help get the skin off, so he has been out alot! Also I can handle him easily and when I change the water each day and do cage maintence I take him out and hold him for a bit. He is rather calm. I understand not all are like this but if your getting a baby and find one with a good disposition and handle it regularly it should get used to it. Definatly use the red light.
Not an expert though, as I havent had him long, but I am already thrilled with this type of snake. Good luck with your baby search!


They are great looking I like the hognose to and nice tempermeants but since banned in my area the New mex milk will be it. The breeder has eggs incubating so going to get one.
He will see them after they eat on their own so thats good. Its hard to look at an empty cage lol.
How has yours been feeding?

[peterm15]

banned in your area.. HA who listens to thoes anyways.. lol.. just kidding.. but the bannes that some put on is redicoulas.. (sp).. i hope everything works out good for you and keep us updated on the snake you get...

[Missy]

Lol yout right who listens but the problem was the hognose breeders I found were out of state and when they had babies they shipped so I didnt want to risk it . They shipped fed ex but who knows who opens the packages before you get them and I didnt want to do 2 yrs in jail lol.
Pythons are banned to except the ball and calabars ,boas are banned to except rosy,rubber ,sand and think the arboreal types that dont get over 6 feet are okay.
The law is so vague that its hard to figure out and when I called (city office that handles that)to find out if hognose were banned no one knew than a guy just told me better not get one because even tho its a law they wrote up they themselves couldnt make sense of it and when in doubt snakes can be seized.
New Mex milks are great looking anyway and found an area breeder with eggs.
I have a CA king those arent banned but just to be safe I dont tell anyone just incase they ban everything except worm snakes lol.
I was going to put a deposit on my new mex milk but the breeder told me to wait till he got themm to eat two times after they are born and I didnt need a deposit so just waiting.
Like Topaz I am going to get a male. I was looking into house snakes to but lolaophidia told me his male was bigger than what I read which was 2 feet and the cage I have is only 24 inches by 20 inches . Well sorry I rambled on but thats what happens when you get 11 hours sleep and than drink coffee lol but going to the gym now so its okay lol.
Bye