Goanna Ranch

[Spike]

I was curious about this place called goanna ranch. Goanna Ranch (http://www.goannaranch.com) I am assuming they're very well known breeders of monitors and supply are fair bit throughtout North America. I was wondering if they have a site or if anyone has any pictures of the setups and goannas they have there
Cheers

[kap10cavy]

Goanna Ranch is owned and operated by Frank Retes. He is good at what he does, and that is breeding and hatching monitors.
He could work on his people skills but he knows what he is doing with captive lizards. His site has been under construction for over 3 years that I know of. I think he gets distracted easily. hahahaha
He has a forum called varanus.net. If you want to inquire about an lizard, I would try there or the KS classifieds.
Do Not, tell him MS sent you. Hahaha

Scott

[Spike]

Thanks scott. Being in Australia, i unfortunately can't get a lizard from him. I had heard that he has had great success keeping and breeding them though and was interested in seeing how he was going about it. I heard that he breeds the merten's water monitor, which i am pretty interested in.

Thanks again

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Spike
Thanks scott. Being in Australia, i unfortunately can't get a lizard from him. I had heard that he has had great success keeping and breeding them though and was interested in seeing how he was going about it. I heard that he breeds the merten's water monitor, which i am pretty interested in.

Thanks again

Spike, there are plenty of mertens available in Australia, and they are far less inbred. Why on earth would you even wish you could get a local lizard from overseas?

p.s. I've sent you a pm.

[Spike]

I was the least bit interested in getting a lizard of him, and if i could if definitely would not have been a local one... thats for sure.

I had heard he had success breeding and keeping different kinds of monitors and as i said before was just interested to see how HE does it

Thanks anyway

[crocdoc]

Spike, you're welcome to go ask him. He's on the kingsnake.com monitor forum and the varanus.net forums. I'm sure he'll just come right out and answer all your questions in a straightforward manner, without being the tiniest bit demeaning or bagging scientists in the process.

[kap10cavy]

I'm sure he'll just come right out and answer all your questions in a straightforward manner, without being the tiniest bit demeaning or bagging scientists in the process.

Ummm................. Dave? Are we talking about the same Frank?
I also don't see why anyone would want an imported mertens when there are CB homegrowns right where your at.

Scott

[Spike]

Originally posted by kap10cavy
Ummm................. Dave? Are we talking about the same Frank?
I also don't see why anyone would want an imported mertens when there are CB homegrowns right where your at.

Scott

i apologize if it sounded as though i wished to import a Mertern's Water Monitor from this guy. That was not my intention at all. I'm just interested in Merten's ecology and biology, and i didn't try to get in touch with this guy so i could buy an 'inbred water monitor iilleaglly' off him for 4 times the price i would pay for one down the road,

[kap10cavy]

You might be better off asking Crocdoc and.or Mbayless for that info. All I know is they are cool critters and swim like an otter, oh and I would love to have a couple, i lack the room for a large pool.

Scott

[Spike]

Crocdoc has already given me useful information on the housing and husbandry on these guys. As well as some excellent photos too.

If i can persuade mum to let me get a few, then i'll work my butt off to save up and get some. But before i did get any, i would like for the dragons i have now to start breeding and paying a little bit for themselves... if you know what i mean.

Lace monitors are cool too:D

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by kap10cavy
Ummm................. Dave? Are we talking about the same Frank?
I also don't see why anyone would want an imported mertens when there are CB homegrowns right where your at.

Scott

Haha, Scott, I was being ironic.

[treevaranus]

As far as finding out info about the biology and ecology of mertens, I would ask lizard biologists or researchers in your own country, and not a lizard breeder living in Arizona.

Mr. Retes is notorious for attacking and denouncing the many months and years of research and findings that many of the well known monitor biologists/ecologists have put in to researching monitors in the wild. This is why he is not respected anywhere else but in his tiny little world of reptile breeder buddies... Even there, most do not respect him due to his arrogance.

He will talk about how he has seen all of this in the wild, and how he has seen complete life cycles of the same monitors, breeding, nesting, hatching, etc... which is all BS, as a tourist visa from the US does not allow a tourist to stay more than a couple of weeks, or a few months at most, and there is no way he could have seen what he claims to see in one stay...

Like I said, if you are really interested in the biology and ecology of V. mertensi, or other varanids, I suggest you read the many papers and books written on them, or contacting people at universities in Oz, or globally who are currently studying varanids. I would think that there should be at least somebody up there in the north who is at least studying the affects of cane toads on varanid populations, mertens being one of the species being devastated...

I have two articles on the captive care and husbandry of Mertens in both captive collections and zoo collections, if you would like to read, send me an email and I will forward them to you...

I bet you will get more from these articles than you will out of Goanna Ranch.

Because of his arrogance, and refusal to ever admit to being wrong or hypocritical, he will probably deny ever experiencing any problems or difficulties with mertens, I know for a fact that he has, because he openly admitted to me he did at Daytona last year(over some drinks- I think that was the trick to 'opening the vault'). He said his biggest problem was getting hatchlings that survived and grew up. He said he lost quite a few babies...

But I'm sure even if you ask him, he will give you the run around, leaving you with nothing but confusion and unanswered queries....like he does with everyone else.. There are many other people who have had much better success with this species, both in your country and Europe. If I were you, and were serious about talking with somebody who has been breeding Mertens for more than a decade, I would highly recommend talking to Bernd Eidenmueller... I don't think anyone could compare to the success that he has had with monitors for the past decades.. His website is www.monitor-lizards.net . I suggest you check him out, he is usually very helpful when it comes to advice....

I wish you the best of luck, Mertens are gorgeous animals... I love going to the Bronx Zoo here to go watch them on display.. One of my favorite non-tree monitor varanids...hahaha...

Cheers, good luck

Bob
treemonitors.com (http://www.treemonitors.com)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Are these the same biologists that claim that monitors don't have the ability to multi-clutch in the wild?

LOL!

[treevaranus]

Please show me who/where/when a monitor biologist said that it is not possible to multiclutch......

There is a big difference between being possible and actually occurring. To date, to my knowledge, there is no evidence suggesting that it ocurs in the wild...

Do you have proof? Does FR? Of course not...Does FR have proof of monitors pair bonding in the wild? Of course not...(sorry, still hasn't shown any photographs suggesting that it occurs in the wild).

I think it is quite clear that animals in captivity physiologically respond to and behave differently than in the wild, as variables and extremes are completely removed/altered in captivity..

You are simply altering/slandering the original argument, which is that there is no evidence to suggest that monitors multiclutch in the wild. The scientists have never argued the capability of it occurring.. But that is one of the things that FR and his apostles use to bash scientists, claiming that science said it is impossible to multiclutch in the wild, whereas the stance of the monitor biologists was that is hasn't been observed to occur in the wild...

FR is very good at manipulating and altering contexts, to get his message across, or to make someone look inferior to him...hnce the alteration of the argument of it occurring in the wild to the ability to do so...

Please show me who/when/where a monitor biologist claimed that it is impossible to occur....

[kap10cavy]

Ok, lets see if I can put my veiw into words without starting an arguement. Frank is good at what he does and has been very successful at it, which is raising and breeding monitors.
If I have a nesting or husbandry question, I have no problem asking him.
Now If I want some info about the senses of a monitors, ie. hearing smelling, eyesight ect. I have no problem asking people like Mark.
It all boils down to what do you want to know. Not everyone is qualified to answer every question.
When it comes to incubating and hatching eggs, I can only tell you what I have read and observed from other peoples critters or send you to the people with success.
If you ask me about the "third eye" of a savannah, I will tell you, "I dunno, ask Mark".
If you want advise about rehabbing a malnurished, dehyderated, neglected sav or albig, I will be glad to help.
We all have our own nitches, Bob's is those gorgeous tree monitors, Jody's is the waters and niles, Mark and Sam's are(where is Sam nowadays?) the study of anything with scales.
Mine has become nursemaid to sick african monitors.
Just my thoughts.

Scott

[treevaranus]

I agree with what you're saying Scott,

What I am trying to say is that Frank is stepping out of his league by making attacks on wild monitor biologists, and outlandish claims of wild monitor behaviors never seen before(by anyone except for FR).

I do not disagree that FR is good at what he is, a reptile breeder. However he is way out of his 'specialization' when discussing wild monitors. Which goes back to my reasoning in my initial post, when Spike was looking to ask FR about monitor biology and ecology... Something that is not Frank's 'cup of tea'.....

As FR got good at what he does(breed monitors), he developed quite a bit of an ego. With this ego, he became confident that because he breeds monitors, he knows what they do in the wild, challenging renown monitor biologists who have dedicated many years and decades to studying them in the wild. Challenging them in Australia, or Indonesia, or Africa, while sitting in his backyard in Arizona.....

There are clearly two separate aspects here.. captivity vs. wild.

Since monitors have all originated in the wild(they are wild animals), I see it better to base their needs and requirements of what they need in captivity off of what they use in nature. After all, that is where they come from/originated from!!!

Going by FR's stance, he has a bit of an opposite twist of beliefs. He believes that studying the behaviors, biology, and ecology of monitors in captivity(man made/artificial/not natural/not where monitors originated from) is a way of understanding wild monitors...

That just sounds backwards and assenine to me. Therefore, i feel that FR is way out of his league, to try to step in to the wild fora, and contest and denounce people who have experience are out in the field day and night, for weeks/months/years....

[jungleshadows]

Going by FR's stance, he has a bit of an opposite twist of beliefs. He believes that studying the behaviors, biology, and ecology of monitors in captivity(man made/artificial/not natural/not where monitors originated from) is a way of understanding wild monitors...

I actually think that can be done to an extent. No you won't be able to figure out everything. But you will be able to learn alot of things and use it to better understand them in the wild.

By putting them in a cage they do not change into something else they are still very much wild. Watching them grow you will learn how they grow, the potential they have, and a bit of their language.

I think things can be learned on both sides of this fence. Getting everyone on the same team is the hard part.

[treevaranus]

yes, but the things that FR claims that occurs which the biologists disagree with him on, are all behaviors which are the product of captivity...

Pair Bonding- We are the ones forcing the animals to live in the same enclosures together, share the same resources, have a limited distance to get away from one another, etc.. We are the ones forcing them to live together. As the scientists have said before, open up the cage door, and see how social they really are. This is not something that FR has tested to disprove his theory...

Multi Clutching- This is a product of food intake, and perhaps stable/consistent conditions. If food is optimal(being fed a lot- you have that ability in captivity), females will cycle more frequently. It is very unlikely that monitors eat anywhere near as much as what they are offered in captivity. We are allowing them the extra food(a product of us, not 'nature') Also, climatic conditions/weather/seasons play an important role with this as well. Animals in captivity are not exposed to the same natural occurrences that wild animals are... Even Frank himself has said that the animals he keeps outdoors do not breed as frequently as the ones kept inside... By eliminating/limiting seasonal variability/inclimate weather, etc... animals are able to continue on the same physiological cycle, free of most stresses which would otherwise cause a shutdown in reproductive cycling. There are many other limiting factors which would affect reproductive output that are also not experienced in captivity...

Even measuring growth in captivity may not even be a legitimate method to imply towards wild monitors, as the frequency and quantities of food intake may vary drastically due to many factors as well... ie. seasonal fluctuations, drought-shortage of food, inclimate weather, etc... In captivity, growth is caused by what we provide the lizards with- it is all about us and our input into the system.... Therefore we are the limiting factor in their growth, reproduction, social behaviors, etc...

There truly is no way of modeling what occurs with the three behaviors metnioned, in nature after what we see in captivity, as we are the ones that limit and control what occurs.

[jungleshadows]

Key words in my post maybe you missed them?

I think can be done extent potential

We are not making them something they are not. Well with the exception of crossing species.

We are only bringing out there potential it may be to the max but it is all there to begin with. To say we change them that much is very arrogant.

Of course they are different they are in a box in our care. But not to the extreme as you make it sound. After all tossing a rock in the pond makes it different, but doesn't change the fact it is a pond.

This is just how I view things you may see things different then I. Thats just how the cookie crumbles. No biggie

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Are these the same biologists that claim that monitors don't have the ability to multi-clutch in the wild?

LOL!

Unfortunately, Jeff, as Bob said you are falling into the trap of believing what the 'anti-scientists' (let's call them AS's) say scientists think. It's easy to win arguments by making up stuff about what the other side thinks, then tearing it down.

For example, you'll see AS's saying that scientists thinks monitors can't multiclutch in the wild. SHvar has taken this one step further and said that the 'experts' claim they don't multiclutch at all (implying wild or captivity).

If you read all of the threads you'd see that what scientists are actually saying is that it has never been observed or documented in the wild and, in the case of many Australian monitors, is highly unlikely to occur because of something we Australians like to call seasons (something AS's wouldn't encounter on their brief trips to Australia - it's easy to imagine lace monitors breeding all year 'round when you've only been here in summer).

AS's have also said scientists think Sceloporus don't pair up, then showed a photo of them pairing to prove the scientists wrong. That's confusing monitors with other lizards. No scientist I know claims that no lizards pair up, just that certain ones don't. I know where particular groups of male and female water dragons hang out and can go back to those places time after time to see the same male and female(s) hanging out. Unfortunately, they aren't monitors, either.


I've even seen the AS's claim scientists compare monitor social heirarchies to wolves (who? where?) and that scientists look down upon John Cann because he isn't one of us when in fact he's a very well respected herper here. He himself wouldn't define the winter breeding gatherings of scrub pythons as being social, either, as there are reasons they gather in those exact areas. Also, despite being in the tropics, the seasons are different enough to affect the behaviours of reptiles (ie there are reasons for those scrubbies to gather in those exact places, but I'm not going to go into it). Unfotunately, you'd have to be in Australia all year round to learn that.

[kap10cavy]

Unfotunately, you'd have to be in Australia all year round to learn that.
Is that an invite? You gonna give me a job? I understand the easiest way to get a visa to OZ is to have a job waiting on you.
I could be wrong, it happened once before.
Now I gotta update my passport if I can find it.

Scott

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by jungleshadows
Key words in my post maybe you missed them?

I think can be done extent potential

We are not making them something they are not. Well with the exception of crossing species.

We are only bringing out there potential it may be to the max but it is all there to begin with. To say we change them that much is very arrogant.

Of course they are different they are in a box in our care. But not to the extreme as you make it sound. After all tossing a rock in the pond makes it different, but doesn't change the fact it is a pond.

This is just how I view things you may see things different then I. Thats just how the cookie crumbles. No biggie

Jody, while all this is true and I agree that we can learn about certain behaviours of wild monitors by studying captives, the important thing is to recognise which of those behaviours can be extrapolated. Unfortunately, most of the arguments have been about things that are affected by captivity, such as spatial choices (for example, whether to live near or far from potential mates), access to heat for basking and access to a steady supply of food.


The spatial thing is a no-brainer. Captive monitor pairs are always within a few metres of each other because there are enclosure walls restricting movements. I have hundreds of cosy shots of my pair hanging all over each other, but somehow you don't see that happening outside the short breeding season in the wild.

Access to heat and food is also a no-brainer. My monitors have access to heat and food throughout the warmer months, even when it is cold and raining outside (remember that I live in the middle of lace monitor range). I've watched my captives' growth rates far exceed wild lacies I see on a regular basis and it would be a fair assumption that my female's triple clutching would be unachievable by the wild ones around here. For starters, her first clutch has already been laid when most of the wild ones are freshly emerged from winter and are still trying to fatten up for breeding. Her second clutch has already been laid when wild females are just gravid. Her third clutch is laid around the time the wild ones have just laid theirs.

Even people who keep them in captivity here, but outdoors, can tell you that their animals pretty much follow the pattern of the wild ones.

[crocdoc]

haha scott!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I didn't take any sides, just asked a question. I'm not all that interested in monitors, captive or wild. They are really cool, and I hope they are being studied in the wild AND produced in captivity.

If captive (optimal, pulse feeding, etc etc) allows monitors to lay literally 5-7 clutches per annum, why wouldn't it stand to reason that they'd do the same in a "bountiful year" in the wild? Why would they have the mechanisms to be able to do it if they didn't utilize it once in a while. And if they do, how come it isn't observed? Lack of funds? Bad observations? Lying? Stupidity?

Interesting topic nonetheless. Hopefully it doesn't get as heated as on Varanus.net.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
If captive (optimal, pulse feeding, etc etc) allows monitors to lay literally 5-7 clutches per annum, why wouldn't it stand to reason that they'd do the same in a "bountiful year" in the wild? Why would they have the mechanisms to be able to do it if they didn't utilize it once in a while. And if they do, how come it isn't observed? Lack of funds? Bad observations? Lying? Stupidity?

Interesting topic nonetheless. Hopefully it doesn't get as heated as on Varanus.net.

Very legitimate questions, Jeff. The big question is, for most species is there such a thing as a truly bountiful year, one bountiful enough to allow multiclutching?

For example, lets look at local lace monitors (since this is the species I keep and the species I see in the wild most frequently). A bountiful year would have to combine clear, sunny days throughout the warmer months with an unusually high supply of food. In the 24 years I've been here I've yet to go through an entire summer without a significant number of rainy days, cloudy and cool enough to prevent monitors from emerging from their hides on those days, thereby not feeding or doing anything that would contribute to multiclutching. On those same days my captives are warm and feeding, the female either gaining fat after laying or adding nutrients to an upcoming clutch.

This past summer has been a particularly dry year, so there have been lots of sunny days. In fact, far more than usual. Are the monitors multiclutching? No, they're dying. A trip to a national park early in the season provided a fraction of the monitor sightings I would normally expect. When speaking to one of the rangers, he said the drought was hitting the monitor population hard. Not enough water, not enough food (drought affects the food supply).

As far as observing multiclutching in the wild, the studies on lace monitor reproduction haven't just hoped to catch a female in the process of laying. Many termite mounds were examined and watched, animals tagged, wild females examined with laproscopy, museum specimens (which have been collected over a very long time) dissected etc. A strong pattern soon emerges. Even amongst the museum specimens, covering many years, both good and bad, females only show developing ova within a very narrow time band, coinciding with the known breeding season. If multiclutching were occuring, one would expect to find females with developing ova before and after this narrow band.

Does this mean it is impossible for wild females to multiclutch? Certainly not. However, it is certainly not the norm (if it occurs at all) and we can't really say that this is 'what they do'. Even if we found one example of a wild female multiclutching, it wouldn't be significant enough to rewrite a species description for a reptile book and say 'lace monitors multiclutch'. That would be like describing humans as being over 8 feet tall because of a couple of freaks that have attained that height.

[jungleshadows]

DK I read what you wrote and looks to me like we agree on the subject itself atleast. Maybe not on which behaviors to choose but atleast we agree on something.

Guess that makes me on the fence rather then either side.

[Jeff_Favelle]

But Lacies are a relatively LARGE monitor, so yeah, its understandable that maybe they don't have the resources available to them to multiclutch. But what about Storr's, Caudos, Glauerti, etc etc. They can lay a 2 clutches 3 weeks apart. Seems pretty hard to believe that in nature, they wouldn't get a 3-4 week pulse feeding bunge to support that.

Yes, only certain humans get 8 feet, but that's due to DNA and HEREDITARY factors. Monitors multiclutching is due to conditions. HUGE DIFFERENCE. If the conditions allow it, a 5 foot human isn't going to grow to 8 feet just because it gets more hamburgers. But a monitor that hasn't multiclutched for 4 or 5 seasons that all of a sudden gets a constant food burst for 2 months straight is probably going to turn that into eggs.

Maybe not. Just my opinion. Can't see why they'd have the mechanism if they didn't use it. Vestigial reproduction? Doesn't make evolutionary sense.

[K1LOS]

Jeff, i think you might be missing the point. You are still arguing as if everyone is saying that it is impossible for them to multi-clutch. Nobody is saying that.

In fact, Jeff and Crocdoc are arguing the same point. You are both saying in optimal conditions that multi-clutching is probable. The only difference is Crocdoc is saying that the conditions are unlikely to be THAT optimal in the wild.

I agree that there is a great deal of information that can be learned from captive animals. If this were not the case, then why would scientists bother collecting? Likely, there is a lot less to be learned from cb specimens, and i'm guessing it would become progressively less through the generations. I would also agree that captive conditions would greatly effect behavioural factors. So i guess, that would put me on the fence as well.

CrocDoc, my question to you is are your lacies cb or wc? If they are cb perhaps the ability to multi-clutch is something that eventually comes through generations of the best conditions. If your specimens are wc, then maybe that says that multi-clutching only requires great conditions temporarily. Just speculation though.

Geoff

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
But Lacies are a relatively LARGE monitor, so yeah, its understandable that maybe they don't have the resources available to them to multiclutch. But what about Storr's, Caudos, Glauerti, etc etc. They can lay a 2 clutches 3 weeks apart. Seems pretty hard to believe that in nature, they wouldn't get a 3-4 week pulse feeding bunge to support that.

... Can't see why they'd have the mechanism if they didn't use it. Vestigial reproduction? Doesn't make evolutionary sense.

The problem here is that lacies can also multiclutch quickly in captivity (my female has laid clutches just over four weeks apart). Is it vestigial in them but not in other monitors?

I think their real ability is to time reproductive events to when food and warmth are available, rather than relying on seasonal changes in day length or some external factor. This means that if winter goes on for too long, they can cycle and mate later, when they do warm up and get food. In captivity, because they get constant access to heat and plenty of food, they keep reacting to this trigger.

As far as food pulses go, almost every monitor one sees in the wild is half the weight of its captive counterparts. All of the photos I see of monitors on these forums look obese compared to wild ones, except for the odd one that everyone screams is malnourished. Sure, they occasionally do get big feedups and can put on fat (V spenceri is particularly known to do this, living in a boom or bust environment), but for the most part this is not the case.

So again we get back to defining the difference between 'can' and 'does'. They may have the ability, but so far no solid evidence of them multiclutching. That applies to the small monitors, too. Eventually someone may prove that it happens on very rare occasion, under unusual circumstances, but it will still be 'on rare occasion, under unusual circumstances' rather than the norm ('what they do').

[crocdoc]

Kilos, my animals are CB but only one generation away from WC. There is no way that any monitor has been bred enough for there to have been selective breeding for something as complex multiclutching. It all comes down to conditions.

[SHvar]

Those who study, have studied, or do so that they do not multiclutch, its not normal and that in captivity if they are its because they are being turned into something they arent supposed to be.
Im not naming names, but it has been argued in those words by a few so many times, also that they are not supposed to multiclutch at all.
That is why I made the comment. On CD Im sure I have quotes from individuals saying this many times. Thats not the point though.
Im not worried about either side of the arguement, but I know what was said about multiclutching, and I know it happens, also I know that FR produces many many beautiful monitors and has done so beyond anyone else with the species he works with. There are many people breeding monitors now, but to say he doesnt know what hes talking about and that he lies and evades questions is wrong. He gives straight answers, all it takes is to ask him. I found myself over a few years that if you drop any attitude and not turn it into an insult exchange you can get a ton of great info on monitors from him. His delivery method isnt the smoothest when responding sometimes but then again everyone gets into misunderstood arguements. Ive decided since I have less time now to post on forums that Im staying away from "bated, or loaded" posts aimed to start arguements and posts from those blowing off steam about others because they felt as if they were insulted by a post or responce made by someone else. Yes, he produces alot of reptiles that are inbred or closely related but this does happen in nature, I know from herping here in Pennsylvania and other states on the east coast that almost all reptiles here live in areas that are isolated from each other (local populations), they are different by color or pattern and do not travel to mate with other populations unless there is a reason to leave their home area usually for good. This produces inbreds and does so probably in every area of the world. Some species may and do travel to den up but not as far as some people think, they just dont realize how many are actually in an area. This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot.

[Jeff_Favelle]

How can you observe a monitor to multiclutch in the wild anyways? Won't the disturbance have negative effects that pre-determine the outcome of events? If you go diggin' up nests every three days, what effect is that having on the wild monitor, that, if left alone, might have produced several clutches in a season?

Likely, there is a lot less to be learned from cb specimens, and i'm guessing it would become progressively less through the generations.

Why is that? The DNA doesn't change.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by SHvar
Those who study, have studied, or do so that they do not multiclutch, its not normal and that in captivity if they are its because they are being turned into something they arent supposed to be. Im not naming names, but it has been argued in those words by a few so many times, also that they are not supposed to multiclutch at all. That is why I made the comment. On CD Im sure I have quotes from individuals saying this many times. Thats not the point though. Im not worried about either side of the arguement, but I know what was said about multiclutching, and I know it happens,

SHvar, is this you or another SHvar:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=789340,789862

I'll quote: "And to think the experts say it doesnt happen, multiclutching..."

No mention of the wild there, no matter how many times you read it. You say you've got samples on CD of people saying multiclutching never happens, let's see them.

Remember, I'm one of the so-called 'MSs' (what the AS's like to call us). My monitors multiclutch in captivity, why on earth would I say they never multiclutch?


Originally posted by SHvar ...also I know that FR produces many many beautiful monitors and has done so beyond anyone else with the species he works with. There are many people breeding monitors now, but to say he doesnt know what hes talking about and that he lies and evades questions is wrong.

What has captive breeding to do with knowledge about wild monitors? Who would you believe knew wild chimpanzees better, a zookeeper or Jane Goodall, knowing that Jane Goodall has probably never bred a single chimpanzee? Why does everyone always bring up captive breeding in discussions on wild monitors? I've bred lace monitors, has it changed how I view the wild ones? no.


Originally posted by SHvar
Yes, he produces alot of reptiles that are inbred or closely related but this does happen in nature, I know from herping here in Pennsylvania and other states on the east coast that almost all reptiles here live in areas that are isolated from each other (local populations), they are different by color or pattern and do not travel to mate with other populations unless there is a reason to leave their home area usually for good. This produces inbreds and does so probably in every area of the world. Some species may and do travel to den up but not as far as some people think, they just dont realize how many are actually in an area. This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot.

I'm not entering into an argument about whether his monitors are suffering from being inbred or not (they all look fine to me), but to assume that they inbreed in the wild because animals have locale specific colour patterns isn't really looking at the situation in detail. The monitors around Sydney are very locale specific in their colour patterns, but does this mean they are inbred? No, there are countless thousands of them. Even animals which appear to live on habitat 'islands' surrounded by apparently usuitable habitat seem to avoid inbreeding. Someone I know has just finished a study spanning several years looking at reproduction in Cunningham's skinks which 1. live on habitat islands (rocky outcrops) within unsuitable habitat (forest) and 2. live in large groups (yes, they are social! See? But we always knew that about them and they are almost always found in groups). Sounds like a recipe for inbreeding, does it not?

Well, he took blood samples and compared DNA to find out who was fathering which offspring. The big surprise? They avoided inbreeding through dispersal and inbuilt behavioural mechanisms. Yet 'casual' observation would have led to the opposite conclusion. They all look similar, they're even related (the groups are usually family groups), but aside from the main pair they aren't breeding with each other and the main pair are an unrelated male and female.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
How can you observe a monitor to multiclutch in the wild anyways? Won't the disturbance have negative effects that pre-determine the outcome of events? If you go diggin' up nests every three days, what effect is that having on the wild monitor, that, if left alone, might have produced several clutches in a season?

three things

1. did you read what I said about museum specimens and how the only ones found with eggs or ova are ones collected during a certain time of year? That would go for other monitor species as well. If they multiclutched, we'd expect to see gravid females or ones with developing ova over a widespread period. For species in which seeing hatchlings are reasonably common (V panoptes, apparently) one would expect to see hatchlings over a wide period rather than during a narrow one.

2. opening a termite mound does not affect a female if she's already laid eggs in there. If they multiclutch, there should be eggs in mounds before and after the expected season. There should also be hatchlings, or still developing eggs, in those mounds long after the expected hatching time. After the expected hatching window, though, termite mounds only contain empty egg shells or dead eggs.

3. Observations of behaviours of the females indicate that they mate during a certain time, but aren't seen mating after the short mating season. Would telemetry affect a female in such a way that they lay one clutch but not more? What if the male is the one being followed, would telemetry stop him from mating outside the known mating period? If they were multiclutching, one would expect the males to be seen mating with females several times spaced by a few weeks, to provide sperm for the multiple clutches

[kap10cavy]

I'm one of the so-called 'MSs' (what the AS's like to call us).
Since I am on niether side and am just trying to learn, can I me BS?

Scott

[SHvar]

I stated fact, and quoted unnamed people, thats why IM NOT MENTIONING NAMES. Over the last few years Ive saved comments by people that are useful info to this hobby and stored it under their names on CD.
Im not arguing with you. You try this frequently, then you turn it around on them and say otherwise. Anyways, on with this.
Its been said by the same people more times than I care to remember, thats why I made that comment.
The idea is not about CB or wild monitors, snakes, or whatever, the idea is that it has been said that they do not multiclutch by the same people, no names because this is not intended to start any bashing on anyone.
I responded because I was taken out of context, I decided to clarify things so as there is no doubt as to what was meant.
Next I responded because this also turned into a Frank Retes/Goannaranch bashfest because someone felt insulted by him and decided to slander him. Many people have inbred reptiles for many many years, yet this becomes about his animals and no one elses. I guess all of those Aussie monitors available over North America, and sent to Europe because of his efforts are wrong, without his efforts most of us today would only have WC monitors in our collections, prove that wrong. I guess everyone with an ackie, flavi-argus, mertens, lace, etc are wrong because they are inbred stock.
Id rather have CBB available to get than continued WC animals. This responce was to cover many posts on this thread not just one or 2 of them. Take it as you will, this needed to be said, cant we just be monitor hobbyists and not MS or AS? Personally I like Kaps idea, but I think its all BS.
Have a nice day everyone, and yes Frank produces absolutely beautiful animals at resonable prices. These are some in my collection, the red ackies are decended from his (of course all red and yellow ackies in North America are).

Shawn
http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2970_1024.ts1116342653000.jpg http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2936_1024.ts1114588655679.jpg http://shenderson1.photosite.com/~photos/tn/2799_1024.ts1111731368000.jpg

[treevaranus]

SHVar, what are you talking about??? Where in anyone's post did they say anything criticizing the animals produced by FR, or captive populations of monitors anywhere?? Where did anyone say anything about people in North America being wrong for inbreeding monitors??

The previous posts are about monitors IN THE WILD, and how FR, although he is good at breeding CAPTIVE monitors, is way out of his league when telling others what they do in the WILD.

Nowhere did we discuss his business ethics or practices... We are arguing the fact that one cannot assume that what occurs in nature on the basis of what is seen in captivity. But you brought up captivity and breeding... and what the heck is the plug in there for? "and yes Frank produces absolutely beautiful animals at resonable prices"?- now tell me what was the significance of that???

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by SHvar
I stated fact, and quoted unnamed people, thats why IM NOT MENTIONING NAMES. Over the last few years Ive saved comments by people that are useful info to this hobby and stored it under their names on CD. Im not arguing with you. You try this frequently, then you turn it around on them and say otherwise. Anyways, on with this. Its been said by the same people more times than I care to remember, thats why I made that comment.
The idea is not about CB or wild monitors, snakes, or whatever, the idea is that it has been said that they do not multiclutch by the same people, no names because this is not intended to start any bashing on anyone. responded because I was taken out of context, I decided to clarify things so as there is no doubt as to what was meant.



Sorry, mate, you can't get away that easily. Nothing was quoted out of context on my part, for I even gave the link to where the quote came from. Was that not you that said that in that post? Here's the thing: You can't accuse a group of people (and we all know exactly who you meant when you said 'experts') of stating that multiclutching never happens, that it is a fact that they have stated this and that you actually have these quotes on CD, then accuse me of starting an argument when I ask to see this so called 'evidence'.

I'll put it into terms you may better comprehend. If I said 'SHvar said monitors are frogs, that's an exact quote and I have the post stored on my computer' and you insisted on seeing evidence of this so called quote, wouldn't you find it a bit odd if I then said 'don't argue with me, SHvar, and try to turn this into something it isn't. It's a fact that you said that'?

Has anyone actually said 'multiclutching never happens in monitors' or not? This statement keeps reappearing on various forums, yet I haven't seen anyone actually say that. Certainly not in recent years. I think you are creating imaginary straw men to knock down, much like when the AS's claim that scientists think monitor behaviour is random (yeah, right), or have a social heirarchy like wolves (again, when? where?) etc etc. It's easy to make others look like fools when you misquote them, then ‘prove’ them wrong.

So, do we get to see the quote or not? Quickly now, as I'm not going to be able to access my computer for a couple of weeks as of tomorrow.

Originally posted by SHvar
Next I responded because this also turned into a Frank Retes/Goannaranch bashfest because someone felt insulted by him and decided to slander him. Many people have inbred reptiles for many many years, yet this becomes about his animals and no one elses.


If you actually followed this thread and read it thoroughly, SHvar, you'd see that you've missed the point entirely. When Spike said 'Unfortunately I can't buy monitors from goanna ranch' I responded that he needn't be disappointed as mertens are readily available here and are less inbred, so why would he read as being upset that he couldn't get one from over there.

You can't deny that the stock over there is going to be much more inbred than here, but later, in another post in this same thread, I said that I wasn't going to enter into the debate as to whether this has a negative effect on the monitors as the ones from goannaranch look okay by me. No bashing there.

Where the bashing came in was 1. whether you'd get a straightforward answer from FR if you asked him a question about monitor husbandry (without a science bash thrown in). The standard response to this is that he doesn’t have to answer anything, which is very true, but that doesn’t stop him from jumping in on every single thread in certain forums and turning each and every one of them into a personal attack of some sort.

2.in whether you'd learn much about wild monitors from a guy that lives in Arizona and takes the odd holiday trip here. Again, ask for details of his so called ‘research’ on wild monitors, or try to discuss anything about wild monitors in general, and all you get is personal attacks rather than logical responses. You going to deny that? Need me to go get some quotes for you? I don’t have to store them on CD, new ones keep appearing on certain forums on a daily basis.

Originally posted by SHvar
Take it as you will, this needed to be said, cant we just be monitor hobbyists and not MS or AS?



That’s a very lovely, kind hearted thought, SHvar and would probably seem genuine if you didn’t obviously lean so heavily to one side by saying things like ‘and the experts say they never multiclutch’ in your posts. .

[Jeff_Favelle]

When Spike said 'Unfortunately I can't buy monitors from goanna ranch' I responded that he needn't be disappointed as mertens are readily available here and are less inbred,

I said that I wasn't going to enter into the debate as to whether this has a negative effect on the monitors as the ones from goannaranch look okay by me. No bashing there.


If there was no bashing, the first statement wouldn't have even been said in the first place. If he can't get US monitors, why even state that US monitors are inbred in the 1st place? And if inbreeding hasn't been proven to be bad, then why say the ones in Aussie are better (implied, why else would it be stated) because they are "less inbred". Doesn't make any sense at all.

But on the multi-clutching thing, one thing I don't understand is that monitor eggs have long incubation times (like 3 months). So if they multiclutch in the wild, why haven't they found like 4 or 5 clutches incubating at the same time? It would stand to reason that if the monitors multiclutch, they would lay the subsequent clutch before the previous has hatched. Weird.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
If there was no bashing, the first statement wouldn't have even been said in the first place. If he can't get US monitors, why even state that US monitors are inbred in the 1st place? And if inbreeding hasn't been proven to be bad, then why say the ones in Aussie are better (implied, why else would it be stated) because they are "less inbred". Doesn't make any sense at all.

You don't need me to tell you that animals with a more diverse genetic history are always preferable over inbred animals. That doesn't mean that inbred animals are going to die tomorrow, or have huge deformities etc. It's just that, given a choice, I'd always go for the non-inbred animals first. As I said, Frank's animals look okay to me. If I lived over there and had no choice, I'd probably end up buying inbred bloodlines if the alternative was nothing at all. However, I don't live over there and neither does Spike, so we do have that choice.

You can read a 'bash' into that, if you choose, but I don't. Frank himself would (and has) said that it's preferable not to inbreed but that the choice isn't there. Despite that lack of choice, the animals are turning out okay.





Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
But on the multi-clutching thing, one thing I don't understand is that monitor eggs have long incubation times (like 3 months). So if they multiclutch in the wild, why haven't they found like 4 or 5 clutches incubating at the same time? It would stand to reason that if the monitors multiclutch, they would lay the subsequent clutch before the previous has hatched. Weird.

Huh, and all of this time I thought you believed that they did multiclutch in the wild, but you've just presented a perfect example of how there hasn't been evidence of it so far.

Lace monitors have a longer incubation than 3 months. It's closer to ten months in the wild, yet if you open termite mounds the eggs in there are at a developmental stage one would expect if they'd been laid within the narrow band of known breeding season. In other words, if eggs are usually laid in December/January and you expect them to hatch in September/October, opening nests in November will reveal empty eggshells from hatched eggs. If they multiclutched and females laid again in February, you'd expect some nests to have eggs still developing or about to hatch (if females chose a different mound for each clutch) or a combination of developing eggs and freshly hatched shells (if females laid subsequent clutches in the same mound).

So far, this hasn't been the case.

Again, multiclutching is not impossible, just improbable and (as far as I know) thus far never been documented.

The funny thing is, I've usually avoided this discussion when it's been on other forums. The one I've always got stuck into was the old 'social monitors' one. It's easier to see the evidence for that one, as I personally don't go around opening mounds looking at eggs.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by crocdoc
The funny thing is, I've usually avoided this discussion when it's been on other forums. The one I've always got stuck into was the old 'social monitors' one. It's easier to see the evidence for that one, as I personally don't go around opening mounds looking at eggs.

Figured I'd better explain this before everyone jumps in and says 'so how do you know, then'

There have been studies done on lace monitor reproduction and I've also known of a number of instances where zoos have had permits to collect eggs from nests and even cases of nests being exposed when farmers have knocked over a mound while clearing bushland around their house.

[SHvar]

This is why I said, NO NAMES, of course anyone reading over the forum arckieves in KS, or other forums will find many examples of this.
Of course, common sense they dont multiclutch or rarely in the wild, the conditions dont favor that to happen.
I just believe that we can all get along and discuss reptiles, monitors etc without taking sides, and trying to start arguements.
We all have something in common, we all keep monitors or are interested in them one way or another. Life is too short enjoy it and this wonderful hobby.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by SHvar
I just believe that we can all get along and discuss reptiles, monitors etc without taking sides, and trying to start arguements.
We all have something in common, we all keep monitors or are interested in them one way or another. Life is too short enjoy it and this wonderful hobby.

I agree with you on that. I've always been amazed that it seems impossible to hold a calm. rational discussion about monitors without people getting worked up and resorting to personal attacks. In fact, I once started a thread on KS asking why it is that people get so emotional about others disagreeing with their view on wild monitors, but that thread also degraded to personal attacks and got deleted. Big surprise.

Unfortunately, SHvar, as much as you like to think you're an unbiased bystander, you're still making inflammatory remarks such as 'and the experts say monitors never multiclutch'. However, as soon as you get called up on it, you accuse me of harrassing you. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Make statements like that and expect to get called up on it.
Originally posted by SHvar
This is why I said, NO NAMES, of course anyone reading over the forum arckieves in KS, or other forums will find many examples of this.

Why would I do a search in the KS archives when, as I've already stated, I don't think I have seen anyone say that monitors never multiclutch. I have seen people say that there has never been evidence of this occurring in the wild. Also, why would I waste my time doing a search on that notoriously poor search engine when you have the very quotes you are referring to on CD?

Originally posted by SHvar
Of course, common sense they dont multiclutch or rarely in the wild, the conditions dont favor that to happen.

Okay, we agree on that. We also know that they do multiclutch in captivity. This is why I can imagine people saying they don't multiclutch in the wild, but why would they say they never multiclutch at all?


In the end, I'm not here to harrass you or anyone else. I think we should all be able to discuss all sorts of monitor related things calmly and rationally. When people such as yourself stop making inflammatory remarks (with particular people in mind, as we all know), then it'll be possible. There has been a rash of science bashing on other forums, which is why I've started the whole 'AS's' thing here. Keep in mind that I haven't posted anything inflammatory about anyone else except in retaliation to inflammatory comments, or misquotes, by someone else.

So, what's it going to be? Get along, or continue with this anti-science nonsense?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Huh, and all of this time I thought you believed that they did multiclutch in the wild, but you've just presented a perfect example of how there hasn't been evidence of it so far.

Because I'm not stubborn, I like to learn, and I try to stay objective. Just because I lean one way (ha ha nice), doesn't mean I can't provide proof for another side.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Could it be that perhaps years ago (like 10,000) there was a completely different set of seasons and food abundance that allowed for multiclutching to thrive and be of ecological importance? That is, its a mechanism that hasn't been selected to disappear because it has no negative effects, but its there because it was once beneficial.

[crocdoc]

I think whatever reason they have the ability, it would have to go back further since so many species of monitor have it. On the other hand, it may just be overstimulation of the normal triggers for reproduction that causes them to keep going.

Jeff, you're a python person, do you think you'd be able to get carpet pythons to breed twice a year if you had two cooling periods and fed them up after laying?

[crocdoc]

Well, guys, I'm off for a couple of weeks. We can continue this conversation then.

Cheers all

[SHvar]

"Unfortunately, SHvar, as much as you like to think you're an unbiased bystander, you're still making inflammatory remarks such as 'and the experts say monitors never multiclutch'. However, as soon as you get called up on it, you accuse me of harrassing you. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Make statements like that and expect to get called up on it."

I see nothing inflamatory, but Im not gonna bite, have a nice day.
I believe they have the ability so that one unpredictable year to the next they can reproduce in between or around the worse seasons just for survival. The multiclutching itself is obviouisly a survival technique.
Im not naming names, I wont now and I dont feel like it, if names are brought up then the discussion switches to either bashing or bickering over that person and what they have said. Im trying to avoid the "out of context arguements" that have happened on another forum, and keep this short.

[jungleshadows]

do you think you'd be able to get carpet pythons to breed twice a year if you had two cooling periods and fed them up after laying?

I know that was not directed to me. But seeing as I have had my snakes multiclutch I wanted to say yes it is possable. My carpet pythons second clutch is in the incubator now.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No, I could probably get them to breed twice in a 12 month period, but I wouldn't define that as a multiclutch. They'd have to go through two different seasons. Pythons are designed to maternally incubate, so I highly doubt that follicles are ready to build and grow in the same season after egg laying.

[jungleshadows]

No, I could probably get them to breed twice in a 12 month period, but I wouldn't define that as a multiclutch.

In that case I guess my carpet pythons do not count. I have had 2 clutches in less then 12 months time but never had more then 2 clutches a year.

The only thing is I do not get them to breed they do that on there own. I do nothing but feed them I do not force any type of cooling period on them. I would imagine they can feel the changes of the seasons if you can call it that here in south florida.

[rsg]

What I find interesting about this thread is that someone asks about Goanna Ranch for their breeding experience (which they excel at) and it turns into a 4 page rant about evil old FR.

Man you guys are obsessed.........

Back to lurking.

[jungleshadows]

haha nice

[Steeve B]

Your pythons double clutched without any temperature cycling, wow you should stop wasting time with monitors, man you’re a python god.

Someone on this thread is a real snake Expert, he is meticulous with consistent results.
I can only have respect for his control not to slap you silly. Unfortunately I don’t have such abilities (you give me goose bumps Bob)

Oh by the way this thread is all about bashing Frank Rates, it should be deleted. such conduct are tolerated on this site. Why I don’t post anymore.
;)

[SHvar]

The post was started as a question about Goannaranch and their captive breeding, in a few responses it was completely turned around to a FR bashing, then it was turned around again to say that the post was about wild monitors and science as well people feeling offended by FR remarks.
I responded to this post as quickly as I saw it go that way to try to get the subject back to where it was started. Unfortunately it continued in the wrong direction.
Yes I agree Jody snakes do multiclutch Ive seen it myself in a good friends collection. But the snakes remark was included as an example to generalize the point, not just monitors.

[jungleshadows]

Hey Steeve

Tell your friend I am sorry i didnt ask my snakes to breed or force them to. they did it on their own so he will have to slap them not me. BTW I am not bob.

I agree this thread has went from one direction to the other. To follow along the original post. I myself would have no problem buying from or recommending Goanna Ranch.

[mbayless]

Shvar says:
I know from herping here in Pennsylvania and other states on the east coast that almost all reptiles here live in areas that are isolated from each other (local populations), they are different by color or pattern and do not travel to mate with other populations unless there is a reason to leave their home area usually for good. This produces inbreds and does so probably in every area of the world. Some species may and do travel to den up but not as far as some people think, they just dont realize how many are actually in an area. This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot.

Mark replies: Shvar: I find part of your quote interesting, but disagree with you on the latter where you begin, "This explains why WTs all over Africa are a complete different color or pattern from one area to the next only miles apart, they breed to familiar populations in many cases and it keeps these differences the way they are. Its not always what happens, but it obviously does alot." = This is not entirely correct in my opinion.

The differences in V. albigularis are geographic isolation. The hatchlings once they leave their termitaria/burrows, move into territories they establish. There are more females per male territory. Hatchlings 'know' or recognize one another by scent and do not interbreed (R. Williams, pers. obs.) - which supports a anti-inbreeding scenario, as many organisms do - inbreeding is dangerous on a genetic level, and Nature has made steps to derail this phenomena whenever possible.... and scent recognition is one of them -for V. albigularis anyways.

What monitors do in the wild can be reproduced in capivity when their needs are met, the better the captive environment, the more behaviors you see, and healthy monitors can be determined by how many 'natural' behaviors you see - behaviors seen in both captivity and wild animals.

Some people (AS's) say monitors act in the captivity is only thing that matters, with wild couterparts irrelevant - that is not so. They are couterparts of one another, and we can/do learn from both scenarios about these animals - and that is what we want to know - what they do, how they live, enjoy them, blah blah blah....I think some people are confusing their innate (instinct) behaviors with their 'learned' (adaptation) behaviors...

Yes, I too have seen multiclutching in my own Varanus, and it baffles me why we see it only in captivity - it baffles me because we should find egg nests with multiple clutches in there, and we do not see this. We do see nest guarding and other fascinating things, but to-date, not multi-clutching. Is mutliclutching a factor of captivity only - an adaptation to this different environment? Maybe....

Spike,here are some good ones for you and V. mertensi sources:

Lee, S.M. and J. Friedman. 2000. Captive maintenance and propagation of the Mertens water monitor. Reptiles, August, 8(8):70-88.

Lee, Sam. 2001. The captive maintenance and proagation of the Ornate monitor (Varanus ornatus) and mertens water monitor (V. mertensi) at the Bronx Zoo. pp53-77.

Hogston, J. 1997. The jewel of Australia. A look at Queensland reptile park. Dragon News 1(4):7-9.

Eidenmuller, B. and R. Wicker. 1998. Herpetofauna 20(116):30-34.

_____. 1995. Successful breeding of the merten monitor. Herpetofauna 25(2):4-7.

Eidenmuller, B. 1995. Successful breeding of the Mertens monitor. Vivarium, Sept/Oct., 7(2):18-20.

_____. 1990. Salamandra 26(2/3):132-139.

Vincent, M. and S. Wilson. 1999. Meterns water monitor -part lizard, part crocodile. Practical aquarium and water garden 29:10-11.

Shine, R. 1986. Food habits, habitats, and reproduction biology of four sympatric species of varanid species. Herpetologica 42(3):346-360.

mark bayless

[Spike]

Thanks for the sources, i'll look into them :D
Lee, Sam. 2001. The captive maintenance and proagation of the Ornate monitor (Varanus ornatus) and mertens water monitor (V. mertensi) at the Bronx Zoo. pp53-77.
is the above source only available at the Bronx Zoo?

and are most of the sources, related to the Mertens solely? or are the extracts from monitor books?
cheers

[mbayless]

Hi SPike,
Yes, these sources are related mostly to V. mertensi, as that is the species you asked about - the nice thing about have a catalogue for my Varanus papers - Ive speciated it to all species, cross indexed by 15 subheadings, and author file for 5,000+ sources now....both books/papers/articles, letters, keepers, videos, field notes, photographs, slides etc.... it takes up alot of room - room I no longer have now - and entropy is winning this battle!

The sources are available - the Bronx paper is not so easy to get, and if you have trouble, we can arrange for you to get it - if you really want this one, email me directly for details and we can get it to you, not a problem. I don't want to give my email on here but I think there is a way to email me from here? Im not computer savy.

Good luck Spike,
markb

[SHvar]

To explain.
If set up so that available resources are there to allow them to do so they can keep laying and laying over and over. Thats a product of plenty of food, good available temperatures, etc etc.
I havent bred monitors, yet people dont want to believe me that the female beardie I had from hatchling until about 1.5 years old layed eggs starting from 10 months old (when I introduced the male). She layed 21 eggs per clutch (except one), every 3-4 weeks and took 2 breaks for 1.5 months without laying. This resulted in 213 eggs in one year. She didnt lose weight, she kept gaining weight the entire time. I could have set a calender to her egg laying it was that regular.
My one pair of monitors, my red ackies, get along so well, and do everything together, if they produce or not, it does not bother me that much, because they are such a great couple. Im sure someday they will start suprising me. The female had a low price to get rid of her because the former owner had a trio and they never reproduced. In fact the female I picked out was in the best shape, she had all of her toes, no scars, wasnt obese, but had a lump in her one jawbone. In 2 weeks time the lump was gone, she was filling out more, and Ive observed mating 2-3 times so far.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Is mutliclutching a factor of captivity only - an adaptation to this different environment?

Would that be a "Lamarkian" trait and quite refuted by modern biology?

[mbayless]

Hi Jeff,

Hahaha - oooh, I like the way you put that...nice question. Although one does not read much on organic evolution nowadays, much of what Jean LaMarck has merit, and thats cool - some of those French scientists were really good at Science and scientific though process - like Geoffrey St.-Hilaire, and his son too.

Anyways, back to monitors: I dont think the oviducts of Varanus are in a atrophied condition in the wild, but egg clutch size does have a relationship with how much protein they ingest and how many eggs are viable, as case studies with V. albigularis have shown (Philipp, 1995, 1997; Secor, 1996). Some people have said keep feeding them, and they pop eggs out like a gumball machine - but when African varanids cycle, they slow way down and food intake diminishes and then they do not feed = you should not treat all monitors the same, as they are not the same physiologically, and to do so can be detrimental to their health/lives via visceral gout, hepatic failure, renal failure, and impaction.

Animals can adapt only so much. Is multi-clutching a adaptation to a new envrionment and perameters? maybe....or is it a reaction to stress? maybe....

markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

Interesting.... adaptation, or reaction? More work needs to be done by the field guys. ;)

[SHvar]

"and to do so can be detrimental to their health/lives via visceral gout, hepatic failure, renal failure, and impaction. "

Seem to stem from a few common problems with many peoples husbandry with almost any reptile, mainly lizards. The hepatic lipidosis, visceral gout etc seem to always be found in monitors that are suddenly fasting and mobilizing their fat reserves, usually in addition to some other physical problem. Renal failure, thats a common one, I had one go that way to once, it was dehydration from long term improper caging, bad substrate choices, etc. That also seems to be the biggest killer of monitors in captivity along with RI. Impaction, thats another one that follows monitors kept too cool for too long with no option to warm up when they need to, and are extremely obese, dehydrated, and then as other maladies, the impaction follows. This was straight from discussing this with a few herp vets as well seeing this with many keepers, and others that have ran into it.
Ive noticed when Sobek filled up with eggs she ate, but very little, and not very often, like once every 1.5 weeks a small meal. Of course there were a few more problems but she would have eaten more with out those problems at that time.

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,
As you have clearly pointed out by example, diet and temperature are directly related to disease - or am I seeing this wrong? Inappropriate diet and/or thermal gradient and organ failure occurs = could it be that V. albigularis are not acustomed/designed for rodent prey? Could it be they have too much fat content in them for proper metabolism (= catablism)?? Jeff Lemm brought this up years ago - 1996 if I recall - and I still think he right on the mark with that assessment - rodents and African (polydaedalus) do not go together. As apposed to say V. bengelensis and rodents/lizard diet....did you find out why your lizard died yet? I am curious to know....

cheers,
mbayless

[crocdoc]

so, let me get this right...

Scenario one:

Carpet pythons are able to double clutch in captivity (two clutches in one year).

There are numerous studies of wild populations, and most breed once a year at most, some subspecies once every two years, because wild conditions don't seem to allow them to double clutch.

That seems to be widely accepted.

Scenario two:

Monitors multiclutch in captivity.

So far, all studies of wild populations have shown that they do not have more than one clutch a year in the wild.

You guys refuse to accept that.

Why accept scenario one but not two?

rsg, SteeveB, SHvar and all. Regarding the FR bashing... why is it that none of you mind his aggression towards others on all other forums, don't mind that he avoids all logical discussion and would rather go for the personal attack, don't seem bothered by his constant bashing of science and scientists, yet as soon as someone else suggests that these behaviours may not be acceptable you take offence at this so-called 'FR bashing'? Are we not being a bit blind here?

rsg - FR has made a mention of 'MS' in almost every single post in the past few months, despite the fact that the person he is referring to and other MSes (such as myself) have not posted on either of his forums in many months, yet you think we are obsessed? You and I have no issues with each other, but you have to admit that you are hardly an unbiased judge when it comes to matters FR.

SHvar, regarding the 'never multiclutching' quote, I haven't asked for names, just an actual quote or link to a post. I haven't seen anyone deny that monitors multiclutch, just that they don't multiclutch in the wild. You said you had the posts on CD.

And as far as monitors multiclutching in the wild, we can discuss the 'wherefores, hows, whys and what ifs' all we want but two facts remain.

1. there has yet to be any evidence of them doing this in the wild
2. if someone should happen to find evidence of one or two individuals multiclutching at some point in the future, it doesn't change anyone's world view of what monitors 'do'. ie it would still be the exception, not the rule.

I am still away from my computer (using someone elses at the moment) so I may not be able to add to this thread for a while.

[mbayless]

An interesting observation I have made re: multi-clutching in African Varanus: in the 4 scenarios I have detailed reports about, all were 'group scenarios', with 2.1, 3.1, 4.5 etc all living together, with the same female depositing two clutches of eggs w/in 50 days time of one another... a reaction to stress with so many conspecifics present? As all of us know, captivity is an unnatural condition, but natural behaviors are seen - but does that include multi-clutching?
markb

[rsg]

The only reason for this post is because I like and respect you Doc, hopefully we can grab a few beers next time you are out.

Frank is my friend and I have spoken to him about his demeanor, but he is who he is. The main reason I found this thread funny was all the grandstanding about avoiding KS to get away from this crap, then the crap starts here and he's not even on this forum. Ah well.

You and I know monitors multiclutch in captivity because we have done it. Before your time on the KS forum, Mr. Bayless used to jump up and down that the temps we kept our monitors at and the food we fed them were going to kill them. He and his buddies also used to claim monitors absolutely could not multiclutch and that we were all liars. I don't have the time nor patience to go looking through the archives to find old posts, but I'm sure they are there if you get bored sometime.

Do monitors multi clutch in the wild? Hell if I know. Could they if conditions supported it? I don't see why not. Do I care? Absolutely not, and that's mostly why I stay away from the MS vs. AS crap.

Doc, if you want to continue this discussion further please e mail me. I'd like to hear if you've had anymore experience hatching dented eggs.

The rest of you can go ahead and pick this post apart without me.

Safe travels Doc.

[mbayless]

rsg,
I did not call you all liars - I said I did not believe you - there is a difference. NOBODY could/would give me detailed breeding info on it - and they still don't - I do have some detailed reports of multiclutching from African species, but the more info on it the better, but never forth-coming...so whether you care about why it happens or not I could care less, but I am curious about it, and still want to learn how/why it works...don't you?
mbayless

[Jeff_Favelle]

Carpet pythons are able to double clutch in captivity (two clutches in one year).

Has that been actually proven? And if a Carpet lays eggs in April 21st, 2004, and then lays the next year on April 20th, 2005, is that considered a "multi-clutch"?

[mbayless]

Good Question Jeff - I am not even sure the term is clearly defined anywhere - and without a clear definition, each person could/would believe it to be different to them - is there a clear definition somewhere? I always thought it meant within a month or two?
markb

[kap10cavy]

I have never hatched a monitor eggs. I don't own carpets so will turtles work?
I was once told that box turtles only lay eggs once a year.
I have three box turtles, 2 males and a female. I get eggs three times a year. They are kept outside in a huge pen with water, sand piles, dirt piles and natural vegatation.
I bring them inside during the winter. I get 3 cltuches of 3 to 5 eggs from the girl a year. Two outside, and one inside.
Why? I don't know.

Scott

[mbayless]

That is exactly what I am talking about Scott...I don't see why turtles cant be in the same venue at monitors or snakes = all reptiles.

markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

I was once told that box turtles only lay eggs once a year.

By a scientist or by breeders who multi-clutch them in captivity? ;)

I don't see how Pythons can double clutch, given the long incubation time. All Pythons maternally-incubate their eggs, so that adds 2 months to the already 2-month gravidity period. So its 4 months MINIMUM in between clutch, no question. Therefore, NO multiclutch.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Same here Mark. That's how I've always heard it defined.

[Steeve B]

I am sorry to have confused you Jody, I am sure you know I really like you and don’t wish to offend you in any way. However I maintain my opinion! As Jeff clearly explained, it’s physically impossible for a jungle carpet to double clutches. Add to Jeff’s comment the need for the snake to feed and regain its fat bodies and you have a again more time, full cycle in half a year! (possible?)

DK I don’t see him as the aggressor anymore! Call it a matter of perception or whatever you wish, it doesn’t matter to me either way. Personally I don’t need Frank’s friendship, but I like him a lot for many reasons. He’s shown me how real man stand up! Its way more then anyone has shown me on the net.

I also like you mark and Sam but I don’t feel the need to be friendly to any of you guys, in fact I much prefer things the way they are, it’s a situation I created remember.

Have a safe trip
:)

[mbayless]

HI Jeff,
When a monitor deposits her eggs, it is usually at the beginning of the rainy/wet seasons, so the eggs will hatch at the end of the rainly season - at least in Africa anyways - in the Pacific, the monitors deposit small clutches year-round, but are they affected by their wet/rainy seasons too? To double-clutch soon after depositing one clutch, as seen with African monitors would seem the survival rate for the hatchlings would be OK - but what about for other monitors that multi-clutch months - 2-3-4 after - which would place these babies to hatch right in the middle of the dry season when food resources at limited and mortality rate climb?

It seems to me it is related to food intake, calcium levels, ovum sizes, and 'perhaps' courtship duration, sperm retention, etc.... the eggs from a second multi-clutch seem smaller - and would be expected to be so - so would incubation be shorter then, as the eggs are smaller?

As for the MS's vs AS's 'discussion' I am and continue to stay out of it, and will ignore the latter for the most part for the afore-mentioned reasons that DK and Bob M have stated...and will continue to do so - it is not worth my time, interest or energy.

Thanks Jeff,
markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great explanation!

[SHvar]

You wont get it, they are not scientists, or authers, but many times they post pics with dates, and other info every time they lay, how is that not good enough for proof of it? Dated pictures, eggs hatching, pics of the same female laying eggs etc seem to me like proof enough. Why also would someone who shows monitor multiclutching who also has those hatchlings available to the public be not proving it?
Not to seem arguementative but FR, RSG and many others do just that.
What better proof of it than actual live baby monitors? I havent bred monitors, but I had masses of masses of eggs from a female bearded dragon that drove me crazy yet bearded dragon people said I was gonna kill my beardies by keeping them like my monitors (with some differences). My female layed 21 eggs every 3-4 weeks, of course she took a 1.5 month break 2 times a year, after which she layed 23-25 eggs right away. This had purely to due with constant food available daily, consistant as possible temps all year, no UV bulbs, no sunlight, and the pressence of a male that she paired better than I could ever imagine with.
Ive seen turtles multiclutch in captivity, and continue to do so after being brought in during winter. Ive seen some snakes do it also all year, indoor animals again. Seems common sense that it has to do with consistant favorable conditions and a healthy female and male that are capable of doing so with those conditions.
It would be neat to see a good study showing exactly how it works and happens, but then you would have to study captive monitors indoors.

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,
As you and I know, you don't have to be a 'scientist' or anything like that to keep notes and records...as you will soon see, I have collected quite a few breeding records for African monitors, and it has shown a particular cycle which surprised me - you never know what kind of information is important, or meaningless - but to have as much as you can get - all the better. Is it so hard to do? You were very kind enough to share some of your information with me, and I have included in my files and other stuff where applicable - it is all good info - and I always appreciate it when people share it with me....but when I see a pic of a V. dumerilii and the date says 5.24.05 - that only tells me it is a pic of a V. dumerillii on that day = what about the mating details, incubation details, No. eggs, Temp, humidity, medium used, ratios used, no. days incubated, any anomalies noted, - there are not difficult things to keep. I am NOT saying everyone should do this for my or anyone but themselves benefit - but like I said before, when you get alot of these records together, you begin to see patterns, where patterns were not seen before, and that is learning more about the animals than we new before....and its fun too! That is all I am saying...

For captive scenarios, one must keep in mind they are 'captive' scenarios, and these conditions can alter an animals, or Mans, natural behaviors = not everything seen in a captive scenario may be reflective of a natural behavior - studies on prisoners tell you that...and this applies to animals in cages, zoos, captivity as well - so one must be cautious to report what they see in captivity also always happens in the wild too! I found this out when I wrote my tick grooming paper with fellow keeper Rodney Williams - we were not entirely sure this was not an isolated case, 1) until Rodney tested with several of his animals over many trials and they acted the same throughout = then it was consistant; 2)does it occur in wild animals? With some research into ticks, speaking with specialist who know more about tick grooming than we did (= 0), the behaviors we reported were consistant with natural tick grooming behavior, and we wrote about it in CHS Bulletin. It is a first for Monitors - but not reptiles!

How many observations have you made of your animals, and wondered "is that natural or normal?" I saw mine do alot of those things, and wrote about it - its easy to do. What many people take for granted, is usually not as common a thing as they believe - but to sit down and write a short article for local herp society, a forum article, etc may be helpful to others later...and all I have been saying is I would like to see more people do this - is that so wrong? For those who say they have much success, lets see some proof. I have seen hundreds of proofs, but from some, none who claim it = I really do not care if they have or have not - but when one refutes it on every single blasted post they make - one gets a headache... and I suspect all is not as they claim it to be - i.e.: a 'man' who boasts, "I am a Man" over and over - usually has many faults, and to themselves needs to reinforce this image of themselves - its a common enough defense mechanism for (lack of) self esteem or even mental capacity - but this same "I am a Man" fellow who boasts and claims as much is not one as his own actions clearly show - he is the reverse - meek, lowly, cowardly, maybe even stupid?....see the pattern? One of my neighbors is just such a fellow - and its sad to observe - he is a dupe - and its just the way things are...its not bad, not good, just an observation, nothing more - and he is still my neighbor and I treat him with every common courtesy, a beer sometimes, I treat 99% of all the people I encounter....

But I will not treat anyone in kind who is rude, spiteful, disingenuous, etc....would you? Of course not, and I do not expect anyone too treat such personages in-kind = maybe a priest or a pope would, but I am not that kind of person, and few are. Enough spent energy on this latter personality trait topic/crap - its tiring, boring...

You really should sit down and write up your bearded dragon stuff and send it to Reptiles for a article - its fun to see your name in print...and really not as hard to do as one thinks...
markb

[mbayless]

PS Shvar,

"Science" = Latin for 'Knowledge'.... we all like 'Science' where monitors are concerned don't we? I do.
markb

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by rsg
Doc, if you want to continue this discussion further please e mail me. I'd like to hear if you've had anymore experience hatching dented eggs...

Safe travels Doc.

Thanks for the post and the well wishes. I'm back, now.

I'll let you know about the eggs fairly soon, as I have a clutch starting to dent that is due to hatch in a month or so. Last year's clutches all hatched and most got very very dented.

[mbayless]

Hi Dk,
Have there been some posts deleted from this thread??
markb

[crocdoc]

I don't know, Mark. I've only been half following it as I was overseas for most of it and only had access to another computer on a couple of occasions.

[mbayless]

Hi Dk,
It seems to me your V.varius posts have disappeared....and did I just overlook them?
markb

[infernalis]

I found this back in our archives....

It's a fun read.

[crocdoc]

Spike, you're welcome to go ask him. He's on the kingsnake.com monitor forum and the varanus.net forums. I'm sure he'll just come right out and answer all your questions in a straightforward manner, without being the tiniest bit demeaning or bagging scientists in the process.

Hahaha, I'd forgotten about this thread. At least I can say that am consistent - I haven't changed any of my views, about FR, SHvar and SteeveB, in the seven years since this thread.

I miss Mark B on the forums. It was sad when he passed away.

[infernalis]

I miss Mark B on the forums. It was sad when he passed away.

What Happened?

[crocdoc]

He'd been extremely ill for a long time. I can't recall the details, but from memory he was running on one operational lung, and barely operational at that. On top of that he was also a diabetic and had a really compromised immune system.

[infernalis]

He'd been extremely ill for a long time. I can't recall the details, but from memory he was running on one operational lung, and barely operational at that. On top of that he was also a diabetic and had a really compromised immune system.

Oh, sad.

I was reading his posts just now, He was a wise soul.

[SHvar]

"I miss Mark B on the forums. It was sad when he passed away."

I agree.

I rarely ever look at the monitor forums anymore let alone participate in them now. Still have the same 2 monitors after I reduced my collection years ago.

[crocdoc]

SHvar lives! How's Sobek doing?

[infernalis]

"I miss Mark B on the forums. It was sad when he passed away."

I agree.

I rarely ever look at the monitor forums anymore let alone participate in them now. Still have the same 2 monitors after I reduced my collection years ago.


Wow, welcome back and hello!!!

Would love to see some pictures and hear all about you Monitors.

http://www.thamfriends.com/mat.jpg

[SHvar]

Sobeks doing good, shes huge, 6ft 9 inches. And the other monitor I kept was a male flaviargus that someone gave to me years ago "Stanley", hes been around 4 ft for years.
Our working canines have been keeping me busy. More carnivores that eat raw and whole prey diets.

[infernalis]

You must have been subscribed to this thread.

It's good to see another forum vet show back up.

we have really taken off this last couple of years.

[KORBIN5895]

Wow! What a read!

[millertime89]

wow, this thread is crazy, I just read it all.