Does this look odd?

[newticus]

This is my new crested. I got it from work. It's 8 inches and full grown? Look at it's hips
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/68753_5_hips-med.jpg

It appears in fine health. It has no problems walking, it's pooped already. It's fat. It's jaw seems totally fine. It's tail is a little stiff, not like a young cresteds. But that may be normal, i've never handeled an adult till now.

Could it be MBD?, genetic, dislocated?
Does it need to be fixed? and how might i go about it?
thanks for you help

[babysweet]

Looks to me like flop-tail syndrome... but surely one of our "pros" can answer more definitively.

If it is flop-tail, it's generally thought to be caused by poor environment. Not enough foliage, bark, etc., to climb and hide on. You will notice the cresty upside-down on the glass, with his tail flopped to one side.

So far, no one has been able to say whether or not this is a deficiency, a genetic trait, although there are many theories.

The general feeling is the cresties do fine with flop-tail, and it's of no concern (other than to make sure that your crestie NOW has lots to climb on/hide in).

It's also been said that these cresties are still very breedable. I am strongly in disagreement here. Due to the fact that we really DON'T know what causes flop-tail, and haven't proven that it's NOT genetic, I wouldn't be breeding this gecko. Too much of a risk. These guys are being bred so quickly, that it wouldn't take long for a genetic problem to sweep through the population.

That doesn't mean that he's not adorable, and won't make a great pet (cause I'm sure he will!)... but I *personally* would not breed a deformed cresty, regardless of how mild the deformation might be.

But, once again, strictly my opinion.

Kim

[CDN-Cresties]

I agree with Kim, it does look like FTS. Another point worth mentioning is that FTS is not limited to captive populations but is also found in the wild.

[D Healey]

I would disagree with being able to breed the gecko as if you speak to most breeders they would probably tell you that they have geckos with FTS and it has not proven to be a genetic trait. But having said that you should also keep good records as we are learning new things every day, just my opinion but i have spoken to several of the top breeders in the states as well as buy from them they all have had geckos with FTS without a reason for it and i have also purchased many geckos over the years that had FTS but as long as they are up front about it it is not a big deal. I also feel that the gecko you have has more of a twisted pelvis and i think that has more to deal with a geckos desire to retain it as they are quite capable of dropping it Thanks Doug.

[Betty Miskie]

In the well respected "Rhacodactylus" book by Philippe de Vosjoli, Frank Fast and Allen Repashy, they say that "on the other hand, floppy-tail will usually not affect the gecko's health or its ability to reproduce. To prevent floppy-tail, provide adequate amounts of calcium and D3 and landscape your enclosure with bark and plants to reduce the probablity of your geckos spending extended amounts of time on vivarium walls.
My New Years baby hatched out very big, very healthy, is one of my best eaters, and yet, I can't keep him from sleeping on the glass. In doing so, he is getting what is called floppy tail. Maybe because of his growth rate he did lack calcium but I highly doubt it as I leave calcium in their enclosures 24/7 and include it on crickets and in their fruit. His cage is decorated with lots of hanging plants and yet, he loves the glass.
I think in my limited gecko handling that there are some cresties that just love to hang upside down no matter what!
My two cents.
Betty

[newticus]

I have only had the gecko for about 24 hours.
But so far i have not seen it hang out on the glass for any extended period of time.

And my geckos twisted pelvis is from it wanting to keep it's tail?

thanks

[D Healey]

That is just a personal observation as it is not explainable why it happens but i think some would rather keep it than drop it possibly it makes them more appealing to their mate. The only reason i say this is that is seems quite normal for them to drop it therefore it odd that they would choose to keep a semi useless limb. Please also note that some tails flop to the side creating the twisted pelvis and some flop straight down creating an arch in the base of the tail this form is less noticable unless you know what to look for just my opinion Thanks Doug.

[meow_mix450]

im a chameleon person but this reminds me of lazy tongue that chameleons get when they get cup feed everyday without free ranging. So I guess that it lost its ability to use its tail.

Meow

[newticus]

If she dropped her tail, would her pelvis untwist?
and might it be better to have her tail fall off?, i'm only thinking that it might be uncomfrtable to have a twisted pelvis

Hey jay, yeah her tail is pretty useless, it barely moves. I think i told you i was looking for a green crested, well she's green ^_^ (yes i know, olive, but green cause it sounds prettier)

[babysweet]

From what I understand, FTS is permanent. Having never witnessed the day-to-day goings on of an FTS stricken gecko, I really couldn't say whether their tail is uncomfortable.

However, without extremely reliable information saying that no tail is more comfortable, I would let nature take its course. I surely wouldn't intentionally try to get her to drop it...

Kim

[stickytoedgecko]

Last year I purchased 2 females who's tails looked similar to that (one of them was in all reality much worse than yours). That was 7 months ago, and altho there tails are not totaly strait there has been a substantial improvement. unfortunatly I don't have before and after pictures of "Little girl and Olive" (these two females) I will try to get a current pic of them and post them for the world to see. This may not be the same for your little guy, but keep an eye on him it might get a little better with a change of enviorment.

[babysweet]

stickytoedgecko, I would really love to see pics of your un-FTS'd gecko! Truly, I think we all would.

You're fairly new to the forum if I'm not mistaken, and you'll realize very quickly that there are more than a few of us here who LOVE to delve into the unknown.

There is so little information on FTS (Rapeshy's book is pretty much it, unfortunately) that really any beliefs or knowledge we have is personal or second hand at best.

And don't be afraid to jump in and speak your mind. We don't offend easily. ;)

We're all here to learn, and that's what really keeps me here... the fact that even the resident experts LOVE when someone can lend a fresh perspective, or new information about any Rhac-related topic.

For a bit of referenced information, the Rhac book says:

"With floppy-tail syndrome, the damage to hip bones and vertebral process, once it has occurred, is permanent. However, it is often minor and has little consequence in terms of either the aesthetic appearance or the breeding potential of these lizards. If kept in large glass enclosures with climbing areas or in screen cages, the mechanical and behavioural stresses that contribute to this problem can be minimized."

They also surmise that a mild calcium deficiency may be at work. I would possibly believe this in very large collections, or even small collection with "trough feeding" techniques (every animal gets the same diet regardless of age/weight/lifestyle) to be a contributing factor. However, hearing that *EDIT*'s collection has witnessed a case of FTS (which is small in comparison to commercial breeding colonies) and knowing the amount of personal attention and nutritional detail that goes into her care, I would discount the deficiency theory, at least slightly.

*EDITEDITEDIT* -- it was actually Betty's gecko who was appearing to develop FTS... although my original observation still stands, as it is my understanding that Betty is also among the best of the best when it comes to Crestie care and husbandry... and one of our resident pros ;) So sorry for any confusion. *EDITEDITEDIT*

Also, why would it be that out of so many geckos kept in similar or identical cages, that only a few would develop this syndrome? I still lean towards a genetic predisposition for FTS, although I would compare it to hip dysplasia in dogs... takes a combination of genetics and environment to allow the condition to develop.

Keep in mind that this is all hypothetical, and sheer heresay, as I have nothing to back this up whatsoever. Also, the only way to really prove this the case would be to breed floppy-tail to floppy-tail to see if there was a marked increase in occurence. I don't know that the end justifies the means.

Kim

[stickytoedgecko]

Well I am very sorry to say this but I think the book was right. I took a really good look at the worst one last night and reilized that when i made the observation that her tail was straitghtening out she was gravid, and after she laid 2 days ago its right back to where it was. I am sooo sorry to mis-inform like that. I just think I was getting my hopes up that it was getting better. Once again I was wrong, and I do appoligise for my mistake.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by babysweet

However, hearing that Hilde's collection has witnessed a case of FTS


Huh? ?? ??? :confused:

Who? Me? My cresties? :confused:

[babysweet]

WHOOPS... sooooo sorry Hilde :(

It was Betty who mentioned that she had a Rhac developing FTS....

SOOOOOO sorry. Working late, going in early... need sleep. It's not like me to make such an error. I'll correct the original post as well.

:medbugged

Sorry sorry sorry....

Kim

[DragnDrop]

He heee... made you feel guilty, did I? LOL
If that's how you look right now, then I'm sorry I pointed out the goof, looks like you need more than just a good night's sleep. But on the other hand, it will make you easy to recognize at the St Jacobs show, you'll stand right out in the crowd.

[babysweet]

ROTFLMAO

That's nothing... it'll be even easier to pick out my hubby.

:med3eye:

LOL

It's not like me to make such an obvious error... and I'm *still* sorry. ;)

Kim

-still waiting for a chance to catch up on sleep...

[StickyToes]

I really don't think that cresteds are dealing with a genetic predisposition for FTS. It is mentioned in Henkel and Seipp, as well as various magazine articles and the book by Hamper, and all of these sources have come to the same conclusion about the possible causes. They all point to the fact that the vast majority of crested in the wild are tailless, and that the tail only serves to slow down and hinder the movements of the adults. It is believed that a slight calcium deficiency causes a weakness where the tail attaches to the pelvic girdle, and an improper cage setup or a bad choice on the geckos part can lead to the tail flopping over the head and twisting of the pelvis.
FTP was found to occur in some of the first imported specimens if they hung out on the glass or screens of their cages, so this isn't something that could be likened to hip dysplasia in dogs as that most certainly is a result of countless generations of inbreeding that puts a strain on the natural form a dogs skeletal structure. One could surmise that diet and environment are the contributing factors here as it is still largely unknown what the diet of wild ciliatus actually consists of.
In the almost 6 years that I've had my pairs I've only had one female that briefly hung out on the glass. She was in a large vivarium and there weren't any half-logs, corkbark hollows, or anything else for her to hide under. When I noticed that she was on the glass consistently everyday I popped a corkbark half into the cage and the next day she hid under it. Since then I have always had something for them to hide under as part of the cage decorations.
I remember reading somewhere that it was hypothesised that the shape of their head, as well as the of superoccular scales, are designed to allow them to dig into the forest floor during the day to hide. I can't remember where I read this, but I know it was quite a while ago. Maybe Hilde can help me with this? ;)
I think if you are deligent with feeding and calcium supplementation, plus try a cage setup that incorporates a variety you will be doing the best for your new gecko. whther or not the twist improves...only time will tell there.
Good luck with him!

[Betty Miskie]

Sticky Toes: Thanks so much for the read. I was not having any problems until I changed all my tanks to the exo terra cages. In doing so, I have changed how things are in those cages and so maybe I don't have enough variety in there. A few weeks back I had a juvenile completely bury itself in the substrate (I thought it was missing) and I added more hanging things inside and never noticed him/her doing that again. I just added more corkbark as soon as I read your suggestion and will see if he quits hanging on the glass. I didn't think it had anythiing to do with supplements as he is the only one that seems to be doing the hanging on the glass and he is fed the same as all the rest.
Thanks again for your suggestions!
Betty

[little_dragon_]

Some enjoy to hang upside down some enjoy to hide. I've found corckbark hallows to be effective but the ones that love to stick haven't changed there ways.

[babysweet]

Herps are also horribly interbred (sometimes unavoidable, most times in the pursuit of new morphs) although granted not as many generations as dogs.

My problem with most of the published Rhac information is that it's all coming from the same one or two sources (Henkel and Rapeshy for example).

The full tail theory is definitely probable, and the simplest explanation is almost always the right one, but without concrete information, I won't rule out all other possibilities.

I do have one other theory... I notice that most cresties sleep on the glass with no problems, because their tail is stuck, along with their toes... could it be a malfunctioning tail pad to blame? This could also be genetic, or environmental, or dietary... and it would explain why FTS is seen only rarely in the wild... no tail, no faulty tail pad.

Again I have to point out that I'm reaching here, and none of this has any thing "published" to back it up... but I'm not the type to take something without questioning it... and I like to look at every possible angle. Occasionally it's the most absurd explanation that turns out to to be the truth. Occasionally. ;)

Kim

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by StickyToes


I remember reading somewhere that it was hypothesised that the shape of their head, as well as the of superoccular scales, are designed to allow them to dig into the forest floor during the day to hide. I can't remember where I read this, but I know it was quite a while ago. Maybe Hilde can help me with this? ;)


A few years ago I read an online article about camouflage and how effective the various markings, patterns and appendages can be. Cresties were named as an example, not just the patterns but the crests/fringes and the large colour and pattern variation in the species. The crests apparently help break up the body outline when they're buried in or lying on the substrate, allowing them to 'fade' into the surrounding area. They break up a smooth and precise shape of possible prey, thereby making it harder for the predator to recognize them. The colour stripe in the middorsal zone helps break up the outline even more, making the crestie difficult to find when lying on the substrate in fallen leaves.

So, assuming 'form follows function', it suggests that cresties evolved to spend some time hiding in or partially covered by the substrate. I spent some time yesterday trying to find that article again, but didn't get anywhere. I'd saved it on my old computer, but didn't get to copy it to this one before the old one died. It was part of a research project by a U.S. university and there was some co-operation with an Australian organization, but that's all I remember. If anyone's interested in digging around the internet for it, this probably doesn't help much, sorry.

If given a chance, cresties will sleep under bark or in leaves (even silk leaves) on the substrate. Some of mine have PVC tubes to sleep in and seem to love it. The baby nursery tanks are loaded with pothos where they curl up to sleep. I really only see anyone on the walls at night when they're up and about, eating, hunting or watching me watching them.