Beef Heart

[spidersweb]

is it okay to feed beef heart to my water monitor i wont eat crickets and only eats pinkies

[chuck911jeep]

Can't you feed him something better?

[spidersweb]

well thats what my savannah eating

[chuck911jeep]

cricket, silkworm, superworm, boiled eggs,crab, mollusc, fish, rodent, small mammals, birds, chick.....

[treevaranus]

Do Savanah monitors eat cows out in the wild???

Why would you choose to feed beef to your monitor??? Monitors are voracious opportunists. Very rarely will a healthy and comfortable monitor turn down such prey items such as crickets and mice. Chances are, there are problems with your conditions, not the animal's appetite.
I would try to fix/modify temps and humidity, as well as hide spots.

Something just sounds like it's off with your conditions... But monitors do not eat beef, so why feed it? Same thing goes for dog and cat food.... Why feed it? It is the cheap, and irresponsible way of just 'getting by' with feeding.

[spidersweb]

they guy that owns the reptile store here told me to feed it to my sav

[chuck911jeep]

maby this guy didn't care about the time those herp live?????? Could you post us some pics of your salvator new setup when you have time

[spidersweb]

i will when i get some pictures

[crocdoc]

rule number 1: ignore what almost every petstore salesperson tells you about monitors. 99% of them have never kept one for more than the few weeks or months it takes for them to sell.

Feeding your savannah (or salvator) beef heart instead of whole foods (mice, rats, insects etc) is not going to keep it healthy long term, as it does not contain all of the necessary vitamins and elements your monitors require. It may seem like a cheap and easy way to feed them, but if those are your goals you may want to consider keeping some other animal instead of a monitor.

I'm not really sure why you come to these forums to ask questions, as you seem to search around until someone gives you the answer you want rather than pay attention to what people are telling you.

For example, we are all telling you that beef heart is not a good staple diet for any monitor (savannah or salvator) but I'm willing to bet a wad of cash that you'll keep asking around until someone else tells you it is okay to feed them beef heart and you will consequently continue to do so.

[spidersweb]

well the guy the gave me the info have too savannahs and nile. and i feed them mice and eggs but im also feeding the savannah beef heart so i want to know it its okay to feeed the Salvtor that

[treevaranus]

I give up.. This guy is not worth the time or effort to try and help. AFter repeated posts of people trying to help this person by giving them smart advice, from experienced keepers, he/she just doesn't want to hear it, and is unable to/unwilling to get the message....

[spidersweb]

i under stand but i have been told not to feed alot of rodents to savannah cuz of the hair

[chuck911jeep]

:toilet: This is what you sould do with those advice from you hairy guy and listen to people on the forum. Some guy here have really good experience.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by spidersweb
i under stand but i have been told not to feed alot of rodents to savannah cuz of the hair

This is EXACTLY the reason you have to ignore pet store owners as this is EXACTLY the sort of thing they tell you. Given adequate conditions (rarely the case) hair will pass through a monitor's gut and come out in its faeces. My monitors have been eating mice, rats and/or chicks for several years and have never suffered an impaction.

Monitors kept inadequately have poorly functioning digestive systems and have difficulty passing hair and other forms of roughage.

[spidersweb]

yeah but i wanted to know if i can feed them that yeah will getb e3verything else i just want to give them other things to feed them

[chuck911jeep]

second time...cricket, silkworm, superworm, boiled eggs,crab, mollusc, fish, rodent, small mammals, birds, chick.....

And i'm sure some guy here could tell some food i forgot

[spidersweb]

okay
thanks

[spidersweb]

oh and thank crocdoc

[kap10cavy]

Do what you want to do, that's your plan anyway.
Feed it beef and maybe some macaroni and cheeze as a treat.
I just don't want to read in a few months that your lizards died and you don't know why.
I think you should prove me, Bob, Dave and everyone else how wrong we are and take the advise given and raise your monitors to a ripe old age.

Scott

[spidersweb]

well he wont eat it anyways im going to try him on chicken breast

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by crocdoc
rule number 1: ignore what almost every petstore salesperson tells you about monitors. 99% of them have never kept one for more than the few weeks or months it takes for them to sell.

Feeding your savannah (or salvator) beef heart instead of whole foods (mice, rats, insects etc) is not going to keep it healthy long term, as it does not contain all of the necessary vitamins and elements your monitors require. It may seem like a cheap and easy way to feed them, but if those are your goals you may want to consider keeping some other animal instead of a monitor.

I'm not really sure why you come to these forums to ask questions, as you seem to search around until someone gives you the answer you want rather than pay attention to what people are telling you.

For example, we are all telling you that beef heart is not a good staple diet for any monitor (savannah or salvator) but I'm willing to bet a wad of cash that you'll keep asking around until someone else tells you it is okay to feed them beef heart and you will consequently continue to do so.

Here's what you should do. Copy and paste the above into Word or another text editor. Use Ctrl/F to access the 'find' function, then find every instance of the words 'beef heart' and replace with 'chicken breast'. Then read it again.

In two weeks, when you come back saying you are going to try drumsticks, follow the instructions above but replace 'chicken breast' with 'drumstick'.

That should cover it.

[timfriesen32]

You guys are hilarious. I can't believe you're still trying. You've got way more patience than I would if I knew anything about keeping monitors. But thats why I don't have any yet.

TIm

[spidersweb]

so ur say just keep him on mices and give him some eggs every 2 weeks

[chuck911jeep]

Ok third time... cricket, silkworm, superworm, boiled eggs,crab, mollusc, fish, rodent, small mammals, birds, chick.....Thanks for you really good interest in all our reply.

And i'm not sure some guy here want to tell you something i forgot.

[crocdoc]

or just give it mice. Still better than mice and chicken breast, since the chicken breast lacks bones (calcium) and the assorted vitamins your monitor will get out of whole food. If you are worried mice aren't enough, try some of the other things in chuck911jeep's post. Notice that they are all (with the exception of boiled eggs) whole animals.

You may want to alternate the mice with day old chicks, as they are usually readily available.

[kap10cavy]

well he wont eat it anyways im going to try him on chicken breast
It won't eat for any or all of these reasons
1. You bought a sick wild caught animal.
2. Your husbandry sucks.
3. The critters is stressed
4. your critters is dehyderated.
5. You have no knowlege on how to care for a monitor properly and are slowly killing it.
Look at my post with the petstore sav. Is yours starting to look like this?

Scott

[bistrobob85]

Wow, another petstore owner with a great deal of knowledge here... Maybe next time he'll tell you he also feed them catfood... I wouldnt like to be your water monitor... If i were you, i would feed your water monitor with fish, snails, worms and mice/rat/hamster/gerbil etc. I'm just amazed that you bought a water monitor without even knowing how to provide a correct diet...

[spidersweb]

here my sav he a bit fater now http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/lizardman666/Torque80.jpg

[TheLionsShare]

oh my god man.. that's sickening. get rid of your animals, you don't deserve to keep them.. you do know it's against the law to abuse animals, as well as morally wrong and cruel!

[kap10cavy]

How much and how often do you feed it? What do you feed it?

Scott

[spidersweb]

once a week he gets a egg and a 6 inch mouse every 2 days

[bistrobob85]

OMG WTF!! YOUR MONITOR IS SO SKINNY!! At that size he should be eating at least 5-6 mice per week plus an occasionnal egg!! Dude sell your animals to someone who cares or just feed them like you should!! R"/$%"/$%"/$% Thats ridiculous. You can't keep a sav, get rid of your water or he'll never reach maturity!!!!

[kap10cavy]

This is a sav I used to have, she had a habit of popping out infertile eggs.
This is what your sav is supposed to look like.
She ate every other day. She ate, mice, crickets, roaches, quail, chicken peeps, crawdads and the occasional fish.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/56533PICT0917-med.JPG

Scott

[kap10cavy]

The baby eats as many crickets and roaches as it can take down twice a day. It also gets 2 pinkies a week with some chopped up night crawlers for good measure. Everything at this age is dusted until it gets big enough to eat fuzzies and hoppers.

Scotthttp://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/56533Big_Beast.jpg

[lonewulf]

I ussually don't chime in here on posts like this but after seeing the pic of taht sav I have to .. I have two savs at 2 feet and they are eating a full grown mouse or maybe two every second day PLUS around 50 crickets on non mouse days .. give your monitors some food little brother , these guys know what they are talking about and without the proper diet you are going to lose them.

Would your mother have given you a diet of corn pops and snickers bars as a baby every second day ? That is what you are doing to them bu not feeding them right.

[Boakid]

that is appalling take some of these peoples advice you fool!

[galad]

Ok maybe this guy didnt do the right research before he bought the monitor. Something all of us that keep herps knows is a big no-no.
He may be abit stuborn to listen to you guys, I understand that it's frustrating when people don't listen.

But do you really think hes going to come back for more help after you all talkdown to him like that and call him a fool!?

I mean really thats quite childish.

Can we not tell him that he is not caring for them properly without getting offensive?

He made the right move by comming on here and asking if it was ok to feed beef hearts. Didn't he?

For all we know this guy could be alittle slow in the head.
Not everyone has the same brain power.

All I'm saying is try to be alittle nicer when someone comes on asking for help.
Really makes you guys look like jerks, even though your not.

Sure it's frustrating when someone doesnt catch on right away.
But part of being a reasponsible member of this society is to be kind and generous to others.

Being herp breeders you should all know the meaning of the word "patience"

So I thought.

peace

ws

[kap10cavy]

Read over all his post and the advise given, he has refused to take any. He will do what he wants to do. The only reason I even respond is incase some other newbie comes looking for with the same question.

Scott

[mbayless]

As I see it, when somebody does something 'stupid' it is merely a stupid thing they did, which can be corrected = learning.

But when someone is given advice contraire to what 'stupid' thing they did and ignore it, then they are stupid. See the difference??

Its symantics, yes. A lot of people today believe if someone says they did a dumb/stupid thing, that person is calling them 'stupid' = NO - and this is yet another place where the learning curve has dropped = in learning, education for its own sake, and common sense - and why there is so much more violence nowadays - because alot more people really are stupid!

So, if this fellow has corrected his V. exanthematicus diet = great! If he continues to underfeed it, and it dies an agonizing death - we can only say 'we tried' and leave it at that. Bosc monitors can sustain a level of starvation, but only at certain times of the year -by which they are physiologically desgined for - but when they need to feed, Glutony is with a capital 'G'.

cheers,
mbayless

[spidersweb]

im going to try and get some new pics of him he is fatter then that picture

[TheLionsShare]

The thing is too, once he kills this one, he will kick himself because it died, but then go out and get a replacement and kill it as well, and keep going until he gets turned off savannahs, and get a different animal..

[kap10cavy]

He has a skinny water to go with the skinny sav.
He was warned against getting the water, but he did it anyway.

Scott

[mbayless]

Maybe he is stupid then? So many of those in the World.... (edited out - DragnDrop)
markb

* let's keep the political implications out, please.

[kap10cavy]

Hey Mark, don't blame me, (edited out - DragnDrop)

Scott

(*political suggestion removed)

[DragnDrop]

I know what everyone's saying and it doesn't seem to be getting through. Frustrating as it is, please stop the name calling etc. or this thread will have to be closed.
Oh... politics is off limits.

[mbayless]

I am not name calling - I am simply stating that someone who does not take the warranted advice of others, you work/live with these animals, and to observe malnourished animals is lacking common sense, and perhaps is I.Q.-challenged?

That is not name calling, but an observation - right?
mbayless

[V.hb]

Why would you edit these posts Hilde?

Nobody was name calling. Not one comment made was done so without merit. This guy continues to ask questions and continues to ignore the answers. I've stayed away from this thread due to this, but what both Mark and Scott have said are completely true; hardly name calling.

[tHeGiNo]

I cannot speak for her, but by the looks of it she removed only political references so that the whole thread does not need to be closed and / or deleted.

One thing to consider, though. I am sure you guys have all seen the condition of V. exanthematicus in pet stores, or any monitor for that matter. They are all WC, they are all in improper enclosure and they are all decrepit within weeks of their care. With that in mind, I am sure the condition is not solely due to the current owner. With that said, I do agree that spidersweb is ignorant in his responses, and I hope he will take the advice which was offered here to get his monitor back into good health.

[kap10cavy]

It's my fault, Mark made a statement and I was dumb enough to respond. Can I call myself dumb?
Good thing I'm purty. hahahaha

Scott

[V.hb]

Gino, petstore conditions usually render the animal dead within days. This particular savannah has all the potential to be healthy as it's lasted this long. It's dying a slow death, that's what is pissing everyone off. The fact that he's been told hes slowly killing his lizard that has the potential to thrive.

[kap10cavy]

I am going to try to ignore his post from now on. I did say try.
I don't want anyone named Gino mad at me, I have seen all the gangster movies. hahahaha

Scott

[Boakid]

spidersweb start from the beggining and read these posts, that is what you NEED to do to keep your monitor, alive

[SCReptiles]

This post is so classic of the “know it alls.” Everyone is quick to jump on this kid, but he has told you over and over, that the stupid lizard will not eat anything other then beef heart and pinks. Has any stopped to consider that and offered any helpful advise? Why hell no, everyone just wants to whine as if they are the only ones that should be allowed to keep herps.

Hey Spiderswed, carnivorous predators and scavengers such as monitors also need the vitamins from plants, etc to stay healthy. They normally get what they need from the stomach of prey, such as small vegetarian mammals or insects. You will need to get this thing to take mice, rats, roaches, or crickets.

Here is what I suggest. Get a roach and wash it well. Then scent it with beef heart. See if the thing will take it then. With luck it will. Get some roaches and put them on a high vitamin diet and offer then scent until he will take them on there own. Then perhaps it will take crickets, if not, perhaps you can smash some beef heart into a paste and affix a little of it on some crickets and offer them.

Keep me posted on how you are doing and over look the experts that lack the reading comprehension to answer the questions you are asking. Thanks ----chuck

[mbayless]

Uhm, Mr. Chuck - savannah monitors are not primary carnivores = they are primary insectivores, but have been known to eat baby nile monitors and a few snakes here or there.

I did not realize the kids lizard would 'only' eat chicken gizzards = here are a few tricks to try: take a pinky/hopper mouse and offer it the lizard - if it refuses, dunk the hopper/pinky in egg yolk and offer again - 95% it will take it. Then slowly ween it off egg yolk, and then try other prey. It may simply not be aware of other foods, and they are foreign to it - they do learn to feed on exotic prey, but 'know' bug food.

As for 'know it all' - No, I don't. If I did I would be a zillionaire. I am familiar with Bosc monitors, and their care and seen the good, bad, ugly aspects of this animal and the things they have had to endure...alot of it very sad.... as long as they are treated as a commodity, and not a living creature, the animals imported here will be treated this way, as slaves were pre-1809.

mbayless

[DragnDrop]

All I removed were the political references. I did ask to refrain from name calling and attacks since they are usually the next step in cases like this. I agree it's worth trying to convince the owner to correct his husbandry even though it seems to be fruitless. This thread is a great effort to pound some sense into somebody's head, but we can do it without resorting to off-limit topics.

[tHeGiNo]

It's my fault, Mark made a statement and I was dumb enough to respond. Can I call myself dumb?

You sure can! :D

I don't want anyone named Gino mad at me, I have seen all the gangster movies. hahahaha

Was this some kind of sterotypical, racist comment? I sure hope not :P. Just kidding of course. I am not mad in any way either, just clarifying why Hilde may have edited a post.

Gino, petstore conditions usually render the animal dead within days. This particular savannah has all the potential to be healthy as it's lasted this long.

Not saying he is keeping the monitor in ideal conditions - not at all. Just thought I would mention that being a WC animal, I am sure he is not intentionally trying to starve the animal, unless he decides to ignore everyones advice of course.

[spidersweb]

well he only eats mice he wont go back to crickets but its been awhile so maybe i'll try them again i am get 6 mice tomorrow and 100 mealworms my water monitor wont eat crickets anymore he just on pinky's i all going to give him mealworms i going to shack and bake the worms. im going to try to get some pics of them both soon and past them for u all. i have beeen taking ur advice im listening to u guys then the reptile guy here in hamilton

[kap10cavy]

Shack and bake the worms? Now I am really confused.
If it is willing to eat mice, then feed it mice.
Stop feeding it pinkies and move to fuzzies and hoppers.
Who is the reptile guy in Hamilton? Is he one of the reptile "Experts" that work in a petstore or is he someone that keeps monitors?

Scott

[spidersweb]

he own a store that only has reptiles my water monitor will only eat pinkies and my sav eats mice and by sake and bake i mean the powder the vit. powder

[V.hb]

Ive still NEVER heard of a picky savannah monitor. You're not keeping him in proper conditions. Every sav' I've owned and known of has been a bloody trash can, will accept ANYTHING. (Seafood, chicken, mice, rats, hamsters, roaches, cricket, mealworms, silkworms the list goes........ Rabbit!)

Mark, I apologise but I consider you a know-it-all (no sarcasm) you have more african monitor knowledge than anyone i've seen. I'd take your advice first and foremost.... Your passion for these animals far surpasses the average keepers knowledge.

[kap10cavy]

I have one of these bloody picky savannahs. She will rarely eat mice while the other eat anything offered. This is the main reason I still have here and never traded her off.
She will devour any bug, worms or shellfish offered. So here I am with me breeding death heads just for her. She is a good lizard, will puff up and walk away, but we don't get so much as his from her anymore.
As far as Mark being a know it all, I dissagree, but he is trying to learn everything there is to know. I am glad he is willing to share it with us lowly keepers.
Keep sharing Mark and I will do what I can to ask stupid questions and make you laugh.

Scott

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
This post is so classic of the “know it alls.” Everyone is quick to jump on this kid, but he has told you over and over, that the stupid lizard will not eat anything other then beef heart and pinks. ...

... the experts that lack the reading comprehension to answer the questions you are asking. Thanks ----chuck

Hey Chuck, before you start criticising the rest of us for our perceived lack of reading comprehension, perhaps you should re read what this thread is all about (and perhaps question your own reading comprehension).

He has a sav and a water. He wanted to feed the water beefheart because he was giving his sav beefheart. It turns out his water wasn't interested in beefheart, anyway, but we did question his need to feed his sav beefheart, as it was happily taking mice and the odd egg. We pointed out the need to feed it whole foods (such as mice), which is pretty much what your post was about (although my reasons for them needing whole food would not be the exact reason you've stated - they do need the extra vitamins from offal, but it isn't necessarily because of the vegetation in their stomachs).

As one person stated, it is rare for a healthy monitor to turn its nose up at food, but if his savannah doesn't eat insects it is no big deal, as long as it is getting other forms of whole food (again what everyone suggested). The entire thread has been about trying to find solutions that don't involve beefheart (or chicken breast etc).

[mbayless]

Thanks Vhb for your kind words - Im just passionate about African varanids, and then the rest of them follow a close second.... there are other 'unknown' African varanids too - and more will know of them sooner than later!

Thanks Scott - laugher is the best medicine out there for all maladies, except rock-head people who have no sense of humor, or it went with the Dodo (bird)....

mbayless

[SCReptiles]

Crocdoc, so good of you to realize you are one of the people who was a “know it all.” Seems to me the original post said that his lizard would not eat crickets and would it be ok to feed him beef heart. The answer should be, beef heart is ok occasionally but not as a dietary stable. From there, a little info and how to get it to take crickets would have also been helpful. Rather, you and some others only wanted to belittle the guy who was trying to get an understanding. Now, monitors seem to be your specialty so I don’t want to but heads with you on knowledge. I am sure yours exceeds mine, my problem with you, but not only you, is the way you were treating this guy. If he needs info, give it and save the belittlement.

[kap10cavy]

Hi Chuck,
I guess I am one of them too. I lost pateients with this person when he was asking about gettin a water. We were all nice then and gave him what we thought was the correct answer. I then found out this same person was asking the same questions all over the internet. I see someone told him to do it on another forum. He then started the same process on how to house the monitor. Again, advise was given as far as temps, humidity, substrate and diet. Now he went and got a sav before he even got his water healthy.
Would you have been nice if this was being done with one of the snakes you love so much? You have some nice ones from what i can tell.
Us monitor people are kind of nuts when we see a animal not kept properly.

Scott

[SCReptiles]

Scott, I would feel the same if it was a snake, lizard, turtle, etc. I love all reptiles. I don’t keep any monitors these days, in the past I have kept them, sold them, even imported them. As with crocdoc, you probably know a lot more about them then I do, and I concede that. You guys were telling spidersweb something different then he had been told and it went against what he believed, so he was trying to get clarification. He never said any of you were wrong, only that he had heard this from someone else. Seems he wanted you to address it, maybe explain why it was wrong. I tried to do that in explaining they also need to content of the gut to be healthy. I think you guys gave the correct information, but in belittling him you began to show the load “elitist” attitude that Herpetoculture is notorious for. So may believe that they are the only ones that should be doing it and if anyone asks them about it, then they shouldn’t be involved. It’s probably worse in the venomous community, but its present everywhere. And I just hate to see it. I think when the old heads belittle rookies, it doesn’t deter them from getting the animals, its only discourages them from asking us questions.

[V.hb]

How much more clarification does he need Chuck? Think about it!

Crocdoc BREEDS Varanids, he's posted photos of gorgeous adults and babies alike, both raised in his care. I'am sure he has a bit of merit in what he's saying and shouldn't have to keep repeating himself to spidersweb. All the knowledge in this thread just goes on ignored, its sad.

[SCReptiles]

Ok, so someone at a pet store and on another tread has told spidersweb something. He believed them and that is what he thought was true. So, then Crocdoc and some others came thru and told him something different. He never said, Crocdoc, you are wrong. He only said, well, I heard this from another guy. At that point, we need to break it down a little. Explain in simple details why the other information is incorrect and this information is correct. I never took issue with crocdoc, or anyone else on the information. Seemed sound to me, it was the method they used that I feel was problematic. If spidersweb continued to ask questions, then it was obvious he did not have full understanding of what you guys were trying to get thru to him.

[galad]

Now im pretty sure this is all exactly what I said to an extent on page three.

Why would anyone want to come back on here and ask advice from you guys?, after all the crap you put him through just to get an answer.

Some of you need to take a big step back and look in the mirror.
Everyone has to start somewhere.

peace
ws

[SCReptiles]

Very glad I am not the only one that is bothered by this.

[V.hb]

Find another thread in the monitor forum where someone has asked advice and been talked down to. They don't exhist. Certain members are tired of giving advice to this guy due to his inability to understand it, or his inability to WANT to understand it. His animals are skinny, and emaciated... That sort of thing leads people to believe that their advice is ignored and the animal they're trying to help is doing worse.

Galad: Everyone does have to start somewhere. When I got into monitors, I lost my first savannah due to "petstore" advice. I then came to various forums and spoke to expierienced keepers. It didnt take me 10 threads and countless arguements to come to the conclusion that my husbandry needed some improvement. Nobody is attacking him but are just completely lost with the fact that thus far he has completely ignored any advice given to him other than what he was told at a petstore; which is usually the first thing you learn to avoid when asking questions in this hobby.....

As for spidersweb: if you want to PM me i will be happy to help you with your monitors as far as attempting to fix your husbandry. I'am sure others in this thread would offer the same help.. Good luck.

[chuck911jeep]

SCReptiles wrote
I think you guys gave the correct information, but in belittling him you began to show the load “elitist” attitude that Herpetoculture is notorious for.

This is a thing we, most of us, have to think about.
Sorry spydersweb if i was rude against you in my last post. I apologize.

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Crocdoc, so good of you to realize you are one of the people who was a “know it all.” Seems to me the original post said that his lizard would not eat crickets and would it be ok to feed him beef heart. The answer should be, beef heart is ok occasionally but not as a dietary stable. From there, a little info and how to get it to take crickets would have also been helpful. Rather, you and some others only wanted to belittle the guy who was trying to get an understanding. Now, monitors seem to be your specialty so I don’t want to but heads with you on knowledge. I am sure yours exceeds mine, my problem with you, but not only you, is the way you were treating this guy. If he needs info, give it and save the belittlement.

Chuck, I suggest you go back and read through my responses in this thread and you'll see that I have been very restrained, all things considered. I have done nothing to belittle him, other than pointing out that he seems to keep asking the same questions until someone gives him the advice he wants to hear. And yes, I did point out why you shouldn't give something like beefheart and why whole foods are better, at which point he decided to try chicken breast. Hello.

What you are also missing here is that this isn't spidersweb's first post here. He posted a fair while ago about wanting to get a water or croc monitor (yes, you read that correctly). Everyone responded that it would be highly unwise for him to get either until he was a bit older and perhaps not still living with his parents. A week or two later he was back, posting a photograph of his newly acquired, emaciated WC water monitor. And so it begins.

Walking half way into a conversation without knowing the history will give you a distorted view of what is going on. I agree that it is wrong to criticise or judge someone's intelligence based on these threads and you'll notice (if you've read through my contributions) that my comments are not personal attacks on spidersweb, except where I mention his reluctance to follow anyone's advice. He does post here to ask for it, after all, then posts again showing that he's taken none of it on board.

Now, why do I even bother, you may ask? Here's the thing. I actually like monitors. I frequently go out to see them in the wild, I keep/breed them in captivity and I think they fantastic animals. Where I live, we have a licensing program whereby all animals kept must be CB and for larger monitors, such as lace monitors, a keeper must be over 18 to acquire the licence to keep them. Personally, I think that's a great thing, as they require a huge commitment to keep properly, well beyond the abilities of a child, and are potentially dangerous as well. It would be good if similar rules were put in place for larger monitors over there.

Why? I hate the idea of them being taken from the wild to be housed in an undersized box, fed the wrong foods and die a Darwinian death (never spreading their genes to contribute to even the captive population) or even a real death because the child buying it doesn't have the means or understanding to look after it properly. It seems to be the norm there, but it frustrates me nonetheless. If you saw what magnificent animals they can be in the wild, you'd understand my frustration that they must die such an ignoble death. Consequently I try and try and try, only to see that the person has chosen to do what they want to do anyway, for they've asked the same question long enough until someone gave them the answer they want to hear.

Sometimes I wonder if the answer is to just ignore these threads, hope the animal dies and the kid gets discouraged enough that he doesn't want to buy another, thereby reducing the market for them. You tell me.

[kap10cavy]

I wish it was that easy, I frequent a forum slam full of newbies.
There is one person, I am guessing a young teenage girl that in the past six months has gone through 2 savs, a rudi, a timor and now her Dad buys here a baby argus.
When the argus dies, she will cry and daddy will run out and get her another.
As far as why do I respond, it's really simple, some other newbie might read the thread because he/she has the same question.
I almost wish everyone would have told me what I wanted to hear when I was asking questions about my first monitor, an adult nile I somehow ended up with. It would have saved me alot of pain and suffering. hahahaha
I have been thinking about what Chuck was saying and maybe I get rude when good advise is given and ignored because I hate it when people make the same mistakes I made.
I wasn't even on the internet when I was dealing with my first nile. I was lucky that the people at Auburn University were there to help me. To be honest, I didn't even know what this beast was.
Just goes to show you how far a person can come in a few years from listening to others that have been there done that.

Scott

[mbayless]

Ditto to Scott and DK,

When I began living with monitor lizards in 1980-81, I did not know much about them, and then when I did live with them, realized there was little written for the layperson about them = actually there was nothing then - a few Ditmar's books and so on had pics of them but that was all. So after 3,246 letters, I now have 5000+ articles, books, notes on them and feel I am just beginning to understand some aspects about them better than I did in 1980 - they are fascinating animals, and not the simple pet mouse you get at the pet shop... heaven forbid people used to write letters, mail 50+ letters/month, and universe sized telephone bills - all for a passion for these animals, which I still have, and I know people who have had this same passion for them for 40 years. Gogga Brown kept White-throats from 1869-1909.... there is man with passion!

As someone said on another forum, if they cost more, perhaps people would treat them better - that is true inpart - but also personal responsibility for the sanctity of life also plays a part. Anyone who treats these or other animals as this person has - as evidenced by his past posts - should not live with monitors - and the license idea is appealing to me more - but not under current laws/regs which is a blanket law and does not really apply to us serious herp keepers - those laws are intended to thwart the drug dealers who frequently have these same kinds of animals - so law officials can gain entry to their domiciles when required to do a search/siezure via USFWS types...hence animals cops have become more like DEA and so on.... have we seen this kind of 'polizie' before? You bet!
mbayless

[crocdoc]

I've had the licensing discussion before with American herpers and it always goes the same way: "What about our freedom?" So it goes on without licensing until someone gets hurt by an exotic animal, then the state (or city) passes a bill with a complete ban. It's usually all or nothing. I read about it happening on the forums more and more, as people report bans being introduced into each city or state (NY being the latest - no more big monitors unless you already own them).

The thing with licensing here is that it really isn't difficult to obtain a beginner licence for reptiles: just send an application with the application fee to the parks and wildlife authorities and, presto, your licence is in the mail. However, that little bit of required effort means there can be no spontaneous pet store purchases ("hey mom, it's cute, can I take it home? I promise to look after it!) - in fact, in my particular state it is illegal to sell reptiles in pet stores, so you have to get them from a breeder (another bit of effort). In some other states it is legal to sell them in petshops, but the potential purchaser still must go obtain the licence before taking the animal home.

By law, I have to get a valid reptile keeper's licence number from people I sell my baby lace monitors to. It's a more advanced licence, requiring the holder to be of minimum age and experience. Venomous licence rules are more stringent still.

To all of you flying flags on your front lawns, this would all sound a bit draconian, but knowing that it is for the good of our native reptiles (both in and out of captivity) makes me happy to support it.

There, I've had my rant. This post should spawn a whole thread of NRA members screaming "FREEDOM" as they sing the national anthem. :)

[Spike]

I am also from Australia and currently hold a licence. Each individual state has thier own laws relating to reptiles and amphibians.

i think these licencing laws are excellent. Each individual reptile was looked into by the Government (this is a easier as to what it would be for other countries as only Australian Reptiles are allowed to be kept etc.) and was put into a catergory based on thier needs/requirements and how hard they are to keep. For example people who wish to keep venomous snakes must gain a certificate from a professional snake handler/demonstarter showing that are a competent, reliable and calm when holding a venomous snake.

The higher the catergory is, the higher the catergory is, the more it costs to get, and as stated by crocdroc this makes people that aren't willing enough to spend that money each year just to keep the reptiles legally deter from getting them.

I think that these laws should be implemented in other countries or at the very least outlaw WC reptiles. As im sure you've all heard many times before that these poor animals are taken from thier natural habitat and 90% chucked in a box with a dozen others and frieghted over the world.

[galad]

I cannot beleave this thread is still going on!

I only see two people who where man enough to admit that they could ahve handled the situation alittle better.

V.hb if you think that no one talks down to anyone on here i dont know what to say. I've had many people try to talk down to me on here before. Thats a pretty rough statement anyways because in order for it to be true you would have ahd to read every single post on this site. And my guess is you haven;t done that.

Galad: Everyone does have to start somewhere. When I got into monitors, I lost my first savannah due to "petstore" advice. I then came to various forums and spoke to expierienced keepers. It didnt take me 10 threads and countless arguements to come to the conclusion that my husbandry needed some improvement.

V.hb you kind of just prooved my point there. Even you lost a monitor when you first started out. Which to me means you did not do the proper research before aquiring it, does it not?
So why then are you giving this kid a hard time?
At least he came on here and is asking for advice not just taking the word of a pet shop owner.

Think about how confussing it must be to have three people telling you three different things at once.
Kind of confussing dont you think, specially for a younge kid.

But its obviouse there are some out there who just wont admit they have made a mistake

Again you guys need to take a step back and remember how you started out in this hobby.

Seems to me many of you think you came in knowing everything.

peace

ws

[V.hb]

Ok then. I apologise if I was rude, and also agree that people are harsh in this hobby. But, I do disagree that anyone was rude in this thread. Follow the history of the poster and you will see why. Until then, don't criticize people for being concerned about an animal that wont just walk itself into a better life.

[treevaranus]

"At least he came on here and is asking for advice not just taking the word of a pet shop owner".

I guess you haven't been following this person's threads/posts for the past couple of months. He has come here asking questions, only wanting to hear what he has already answered in his head.

He has already mentioned that he has been listening to this "reptile expert" at the pet shop where he got his animal/s from, and ignoring what people on the forum have been trying to get across his mind.

As for a "young kid" he's 20 years old.. For god's sake... You'd think a 20 year old would be bright enough to realize and acknowledge good advice when offered to him.

All of what has been posted here, has been nothing more than constructive criticism. As it seems that this person is not that bright, and can't catch a hint, even if it is being muttered to him by twenty different people. This is where the constructive criticism comes in... hopefully this person will get a grasp on reality, and understand that what he is doing is wrong, and needs to be fixed.

What has angered so many people here, is his complete ignorance, or unwillingness to change his improper husbandry conditions, after it has clearly been shown that they are wrong/unhealthy.

Some things you just have to beat into a person, until they finally understand... There are a lot of thick headed people/reptile keepers out there, that ignore what others tell them in an attempt to help improve the condition of life for their captives... It is that ignorant persona that I have little or no respect for.

If we could beat the stubborness out of reptile keeping, perhaps we wouldn't see a killing of 99% of all imported reptiles...

Cheers,

Bob

[V.hb]

Well said Bob.

[mbayless]

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink applies here I think....

We're passionate people about amazing animals here - and personally, I care more about the lizard than I do the owner - that said: maybe he should return the lizard to this death-camp pet shop or better yet, talk to his local herp society and find a new home for it, and his water monitor. A starving monitor will accept anything rather than starve.

We're not calling you stupid - we're saying change your husbandry and feed it insects = turn up the heat, provide it with clean drinking water all the time, give it a hide spot, a tree branch to climb, a substrate to dig in, and give it a chance to live - and not die in squaller.

mbayless

[kap10cavy]

He is like the reptile "Expert" that took care of the poor sav I posted about. I gave the "Expert" my thoughts on the cage and care it was given, but the "Expert" didn't want any advise.
She had her own way of doing things, she keeps snakes, so she knows what she is doing. I tried to calmly explain that monitors are not snakes and require different care. I even offered to bring her a piece of plexiglass to cover the top and a large bag of cypress mulch for free. I was turned down cold.
Her ego would not allow her to admit she was wrong.
I don't think my wife and I are welcome at that store anymore. I went by the other day and the sav is gone. I did print out some pics of savs I have and had to show her how a healthy one is supposed to look.
I am so rude.

Scott