Huge Gravid Hog...

[JDouglas]

She was bred to a Hypo and is due around May 15th...
http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/gravidhog.JPG

Here is the male that bred her...
http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/1.JPG

[CARLiTO_]

crossbreeding sucks

[JDouglas]

Wow what an intelligent statement. I really don't want to get into a debate. Especially with someone that is clearly as delinquent as you. First of all this isn't even a true cross becuase they are the same species although it is crossing locales. We attempted to breed her to a Hog but he was not interested so after much consideration we decided to go with the Hypo. IMO, there are a lot more Hogs out there than people think and I'm sure others will be breeding so called "pure" hogs for many years to come. Very few people can trace their animals back to Hog Island to begin with and many including VPI beleive most of the Hogs in the US are not even true Hog Island forms. I realize many people want to keep Hogs "pure" so they will continue to exist as they did in there "pure" form on Hog Island so they can be enjoyed by future generations. This is great if people want to do this. I may even breed "pure" hogs next year. From what I have seen most are breeding hogs for high color with less speckles. IMO this is just as bad as a cross because eventually Hogs will not resemble what was typical of boas on Hog Island. I think there is plenty of interest in this cross and asl long as animals are honestly represented they do not affect the "pure" hog population. I have seen many of these crosses and none I have seen resemble "pure" hogs. Maybe someone like you may get them confused but the educated snake keeper will easily distinguish them from one another. I think they are an interesting cross with high color and the potential to be selectively bred into amazing boas. Don't get me wrong I do value other people's opinions but have trouble dealing with brash ignorance and narrow minded statements.

[king nick]

i dont know if i agree with it ether, about selective breeding to make less speckles is a good point tho. i have seen some awsome looking crosses in snakes.................congrads, post some pics of the offspring,

nick

[JDouglas]

Thanks Nick. Most people don't realize that their "pure" hogs are already crosses and like to jump on others for crossing them and "ruining" there "pure" Hogs. Take a look at this info from Dave Barker and the VPI Mail Bag...

"We’ve had a number of Hog Island boas over the years (it’s “Hog”, not “Hogg”). However, we’ve never bred them and we no longer have any of them.

You probably know that there really aren’t any true Hog Island boas in the wild, and there may not be any in captivity. Most of the so-called Hog Island boas imported in the past 15 years and now populating cages are actually from Roatan Island and the Bay Islands. It’s probably the same snake, or at least they do look similar, but the namesake population was exterminated off of Cayos Cochinos (the actual “Hog Island”) and the other nearby small atolls by commercial collecting. By the late 1980s, no specimens of real Hog Island boas were to be found in the wild. DGB

I’m not a boa guy , but at the risk of raising the ire of the Hog Island boa fan club, I’d have to say that without some pretty strong evidence to the contrary, I’d assume that there are no true Hogs left. The first Hog Island boas, from the actual locality of Cayos Cochinos, were imported in the late 1970s. [“cochino” is Spanish for “hog,” hence the name.] It’s a tiny place, essentially a mangrove atoll with no fresh water. By 1984 or 1985, the word in the pet trade was that they were extirpated, exterminated off the island. That was confirmed in the early 1990s by a biological survey.

So the last living specimens that for sure were from Cayos Cochinos were imported about 17-20 years ago. Boas weren’t bred in captivity in any numbers then. So I’d have to have some pretty strong evidence put in front of me in terms of a pedigree that showed just how any purported “Hogs” were the real thing. It’s further complicated because even in the early 1980s when some genuine Hogs were coming in, already the commercial collectors had begun to mix in the Roatan animals. No real point was ever made about that at the time and most boa fanciers at the time had no way of knowing. But because of that, the “purity” of Hog Island boa lineages has been compromised since the beginning. Unless there are keepers out there that actually collected their original stock about 20 years ago, and then have scrupulously line-bred those animals, I think most Hog Island boa lineages would fail any genetic testing for purity.

I think that most boa breeders realize that the captive population of boas identified as “Hog Island boas” is probably a mix of the Cochinos and Bay Island populations, and that it is their tacit agreement that as long as mainland Central American boas aren’t bred into the group, it’s OK to call them pure Hogs. DGB"

So you see Hog Island boas are already extinct EVERYWHERE and attempts at saving them are futile. It is too late. Yes the boas we have now are mostly likely crosses from the surrounding islands and if people want to keep them pure that is their perogative. Hundreds of so called "pure" hogs are sold every year and are readily available. I am interested in making beautiful boa "crosses" and I think others will share this interest.

[RB420]

CARLiTO:

i agree with you, cross breeding can suck. however, i think both are still BCI, just different localities and i don' think that is technically cross breeding. im no expert so feel free to correct me if im wrong. whereas crossing say a woma python to a carpet python like
this (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67773&highlight=woma+carpet) is a better example of cross breeding

Jdouglas:

Nice looking snakes. good luck i hope you have a successful go at it. make sure to post pics when they hatch!:)

[foman]

Holy huge,Good luck with her although I disagree with mixing the locals of these snakes as we should do our best to keep them as close as can be to the ones that once roamed the wild.
Also the huge price tags on the hypo hog is just crazy.

Hope to see some hogxhogs next year cause she is a great lookin' boa.

[varanus69]

at the risk of cutting my own throat infront of the masses of purests i say congrats and hope everything works out.. i see it this way and so do alot of other people, how many perfect examples of corns,boas, milks etc. can one person see before they become no different than the next.. don't get me wrong i love a hondo or bci for that matter with no fleckings in the light pattern but after awhile they all look the same .. many people have said crosses are the future.. i partially agree as long as they can do it naturally no test tubes please... like i said congrats dude..

[Jeff_Favelle]

The only problem is, if you are using the argument that no Hogs exist to support your cross, you cannot call your babies Hog x Hypos. You'd be misrepresenting your animals.

Morals aside, you cannot say "Hogs don't exist, this cross is ethically sound", but then take out an ad on Queensnake and call the babies Hog X Hypo (Sunset).

That's nothing to do with my opinions of crosses, I wouldn't say that on a thread where someone is proudly showing their awesome gravid boa (congrats by the way!!!!!! :D). Just wanted to let you know that you can't have it both ways. Either its a Hog and you crossed it or it isn't and its not a cross. Honest representation is the foundation of a good reptile business.

All the best.

[CARLiTO_]

Originally posted by JDouglas
Wow what an intelligent statement. I really don't want to get into a debate. Especially with someone that is clearly as delinquent as you. First of all this isn't even a true cross becuase they are the same species although it is crossing locales. We attempted to breed her to a Hog but he was not interested so after much consideration we decided to go with the Hypo. IMO, there are a lot more Hogs out there than people think and I'm sure others will be breeding so called "pure" hogs for many years to come. Very few people can trace their animals back to Hog Island to begin with and many including VPI beleive most of the Hogs in the US are not even true Hog Island forms. I realize many people want to keep Hogs "pure" so they will continue to exist as they did in there "pure" form on Hog Island so they can be enjoyed by future generations. This is great if people want to do this. I may even breed "pure" hogs next year. From what I have seen most are breeding hogs for high color with less speckles. IMO this is just as bad as a cross because eventually Hogs will not resemble what was typical of boas on Hog Island. I think there is plenty of interest in this cross and asl long as animals are honestly represented they do not affect the "pure" hog population. I have seen many of these crosses and none I have seen resemble "pure" hogs. Maybe someone like you may get them confused but the educated snake keeper will easily distinguish them from one another. I think they are an interesting cross with high color and the potential to be selectively bred into amazing boas. Don't get me wrong I do value other people's opinions but have trouble dealing with brash ignorance and narrow minded statements.


Why am i considered a delinquent? U shared your views so I shared mine. This is a forum after all, a colombian bci and a hog island bci are seperated by eons and more apart. They would never meet in nature. So why play GOD? Oh I know, it's ok to desecrate a locality of BCI as long as your wallet gets fatter.

Good Day!

[JDouglas]

Jeff,
As far as I know my hog is "pure". It is a Sear's line hog but based on what VPI says about hogs none are entirely "pure". Read this quote from Dave...

I think that most boa breeders realize that the captive population of boas identified as “Hog Island boas” is probably a mix of the Cochinos and Bay Island populations, and that it is their tacit agreement that as long as mainland Central American boas aren’t bred into the group, it’s OK to call them pure Hogs. DGB"

I would have to agree with Dave on this one. People can say their Hogs are "pure" but no one has documentation to prove it. I also never said it justifies the cross. I was only arguing against the idea that we need to "save" the hogs. If only people who had documentation proving their boas came from Hog Island could sell them as Hogs their wouldn't be any Hogs for sale so your argument doesn't hold water. How about your hogs do you have paperwork proving they were collected from Hog Island and the ancestors were only bred to pure Hog Island forms clear back to the 1980's? If not are you going to sell them as Hogs? You would also be misrepresenting your animals. See my point? I can actually trace my animals back to Bob Sears and 95% of the people with Hogs can't even do that.

I really don't like to start a big debate. Either you like the cross or you don't and thats the bottom line so I am done with this thread.

[Derrick]

I want to see an albino cross...congrats

[CARLiTO_]

On a nicer note, i like your hog...it looks a lot like mine.

The "male" is also very striking.

Same goes for colombian bci's, people say they are colombians but have no proof.

[Wizwise2000]

Outstanding animals!!!!!!!!!! That hypo is stunning.

Shane

[thunder]

what a great pairing! i look forward to seeing those speckled orange cuties!

[ssscales]

Congratulations Jaremy, both those snakes are awesome.
Good luck on those and maybe some Sunsets in the future.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

Sorry did not read everything but aren' t Hog x Hypo the starting of the Sunset Boas where you take they young from Hog x Hypo and breed back to the parents to achieve the golden Sunset Boas.

Otherwise great photos and boas :)

[JDouglas]

Yes if the offspring from this clutch were bred together the animals that were homozyugous hog and homozygous hypo would be Sunsets.

[JDouglas]

Well my boa gave birth today rght on schedule, 103 days after POS. It was a slugfest. :(

We ended up with four perfect babies and all four are hypo.

She had 18 perfect slugs and did everything right on schedule so I think the little male we used didn't quite get the job done.

We didn't have any background on this hypo from the previous owner and since this breeding he has been sold. Now I am wondering if he was possibly a super hypo because all four babies were hypo? We may have just had extremely good luck with the odds on these four boas...
http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/hypohogs.JPG

http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/hypohog.JPG

[boa]

Those babys are scearmers.Congrats not many people here in canada see the light on the sunset boas they are smokin little morphs.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

Super sweet babies there, how many do you want to send over the border to me now ;)

[JDouglas]

Thanks guys. I think we will be keeping all four to see how they color up and to possibly try and make Sunsets.

[ackattack]

congrats Jeremy We are going to try the same cross in a few years ower self as soon as the little ones get big enough ,best of luck they look so cute are you shure that you don't want to send a few up north lol

[boas_and_such]

or down south...heh

congrats and good luck with 'em!