Petstores 'N' Puppymills

[danielle]

Just curious about what the general mood is about your run of the mill average pet store that sells pets. I've noticed that pet stores that carry puppies, the assumption people automatically make is that they are puppy mills but how can you tell just from looking at a puppy that it comes from a puppymill vs a reliable breeder? is it not conceivable that there are breeders out there that will sell to a pet store because they wish to provide a good source of animals? or must they all automatically be a puppy mill because they are willing to sell to a pet store ? and what about reptile mills?

[Ciddian]

I've worked behind the scenes in a few stores and chains to be able to get a face to face idea of how the puppies and cats are sold in pet stores. I cant mention the chains but speaking with some empolyees and how heart broken they are when loosing thier puppies or kittens because of separation too early, or overcrowed cages. I've heard its more common then you would like it to be.
I've also discussed with managers about how much care they put into thier animals. ...but then you never know.

I am quite fond of the shops that have adoption centers for cats and dogs. Granted dogs are a bit harder at times to put into a family but the stores i visit are always happy to provide the name of a breeder.
Buying from a breeder is somtimes cheeper but you also need to be wary as well. I always try to locate one with papers, or who have been showing thier animals. Never hurts to pick up a neighboors litter eather lol Thats how i got my cat :)

Every few months you hear of a mill being raided in toronto... so they are there. I wonder what stores are willing to deal with those types of people..

Just my rant @ 3:30am lol

[Jawz]

yeh i work at a petstore that does adoptions from local shelters from surrounding areas and we rotate our shelters as well. So for so many months we do X city's shelter and than we do Y's city shelter...we have about 4-5 shelters. And its amazing how much work we put into these animals as well. Our store pays for the food and litter and employees are payed to keep the litter clean and all and theres one a few or one cat per cage. We dont usually do dogs. But when i look at stores that sell puppies from breeders, it just doesnt look goood at all. The treatment doesnt look the best, its like little jail cells for dogs. people dont realize how many good animals can be found from shelters.

[danielle]

Why is it that the treatment of the puppies doesn't look good? If the cages are the same sixe as those used in a humane society, the animals get more direct contact from people when they come to visit. And some people don't want an older dog, and unfortunately sometimes the dogs that come into shelters are there for various behavioral reasons that it takes time to retrain. I got my dog from a pet store and i am 110% happy with her,(even though she's a bad dog most of the time lol) But i don't understand why it is that a pet store must not be as good if they sell puppies vs dealing with shelters. If it looks like little jail cells for the dogs, then why doesn't it look the same for the cats ?

[emilsmee]

it's because petstores are run by people who are just there to make money. a very select few stores will spend the money to buy from a reputable breeder, because reputable breeders cost a significant amount more than a wholesaler. and they go through wholesalers (not all of which can be considered puppymills) because of the variety they offer as well as the dirt cheap prices. most of these brokers crossbreed and you'll usually never end up with a purebred unless it has papers (which very few petstores offer), despite the fact that they'll tell you otherwise. also since there is so little invested into these dogs initially they are not brought to a vet on a regular basis or until something is really wrong. your average petstore worker doesn't get paid a lot, and so isn't exactly what you'd call an expert on recognizing diseases. so most puppies become really sick before anyone notices. shelters however usually have an on staff veterinarian that does daily or weekly checks and tests. and they monitor the health of every animal very closely. the have the resources and donations to help, where as your average petstore doesn't have the equipment and would never put the money into getting the equipment, because they're trying to turn a profit, not help animals. you'd be suprised how callous people in the petstore industry can become. death is a fact with anything involving animals. and most petstore employees never research thoroughly into requirements, attributes, and health concerns of every animal that they carry. they get told by the wholesaler abouth the breed's eventual size and thats usually it.
anyway, that was a really long rant. i've worked for two petstores, one of which i was the head manager, and unfortunately that is the reality of at least small privately owned stores. i was making great money, but couldn't convince the owner the animals were more important than money, afterall he is an engineer for chrysler, and has never owned anything but a dog. now he owns an exotic petstore specializing in reptiles, and still doesn't know an iguana from a ball python. he's never fed one animal in the store or changed it's water. he has lots of snakes in there and i don't think he's ever held one. oh well, i hope they're all not like that....

[hudson]

Buying a puppy from a pet store is a bad idea for many reasons, the main one being it is illegal for a registered breeder in Canada to sell to a pet store. So if the store is claiming to have papers for their puppies a) they shipped the puppies in from the states or b) they are bullshit papers (yes some store have been caught doing this in the past). If the store says they don't have papers for the puppies then they have usually come from either backyard breeders, who do not register their dogs and are not regulated in anyway. Accidental litters, where the female has gotten out and they have no clue who the father is so you really have no idea what kind of dog your getting. Or the infamous puppy mills were the housing conditions are disgusting, the treatment of the animals is enough to make you sick and there is absolutely no medical treatment what so ever because that could lead to them being shut down.

Then there is the monetary reasons for not buying from a pet store, why would you pay an insane amount of money for a puppy with no health history or background information when you could go to a registered breeder and see the parents, see the other puppies in the litter, see the housing conditions that these dogs have been raised in, get a health gaurantee, and references for half the price. Or you could just check your local classifieds and purchase a puppy from one of those accidental litters mentioned above for almost nothing and save yourself hundreds of dollars.

Then there is the health guarantees that most stores offer, they range anywhere from 2 days to 2 weeks and what most people don't realize is if you return a puppy it is usually not for a cash refund it is for a store credit. These gaurantees are usually not long enough to have a puppy vet checked and observed for anything that may cause long term problems that may cost hundreds if not thousands in vet bills in the years to come.

Somebody mentioned something about the cages that the puppies are in in the pet stores. Of course their to small and of course their not adequate, this is on purpose to toy with your emotions so you will feel sorry for the cute little puppy in the tiny cage and pay the outrageous price their asking. Then when you leave the store with the puppy you just rescued from the tiny cage, the cage is then filled with another puppy to bait the next unsuspecting victim.

Sorry for the ranting, but those are just some of the reasons for not buying a puppy from a pet store.

Kate

[hudson]

Emilsmee, I didn't get to read your post before i did mine because we posted at the same time. I just wanted to let you know that there are no puppy "wholesalers" in Canada. There is not a single legally owned and operated establishment that a pet store can call up and place an order for "x" number of puppies of different breeds and just have them shipped to them. It's a nice idea but they just don't exist.

Kate

[danielle]

Hypothetical question. Say i have two registered dogs with papers but i don't register as a breeder with the CKC. If i have a litter of puppies and get them registered they would have papers but i wouldn't be a registered breeder therefor it would not be "illegal" (poor choice of word there b/c there is nothing that an organization can do except revoke your breeder license perhaps if you did sell to a pet store?) if i then sold said puppies to store they would have papers would they not? Sorry if that seems a bit vague but im not quite sure how it works exactly with registration of breeders n the ckc.

[hudson]

You don't actually think that a registered breeder would take that risk do you, and no "illegal was not a poor choice of words because they can actually be fined for doing so.

But honestly why would a respectable breeder sell their puppies to a pet store where they would get $100 a piece for them, when they could sell them privately and get a whole lot more.

Kate

[tHeGiNo]

Why is it that the treatment of the puppies doesn't look good? If the cages are the same sixe as those used in a humane society, the animals get more direct contact from people when they come to visit. And some people don't want an older dog, and unfortunately sometimes the dogs that come into shelters are there for various behavioral reasons that it takes time to retrain.

Aside from the fact that a load of kids are banging on the windows and they are swimming in their own feces half the time, the cages are great! (Note a touch of scarcasm there)

Aside from that, as mentioned, not only is it illegal for a registered breeder to sell to pet stores, the majority of reputable breeders would not think about selling to a pet store. I personally see way to many sick dogs come out of pet stores.

[V.hb]

I won't name the store I worked for, however; the lead kennel manager (who is being charged currently with animal abuse alongside her assistant) would deliver puppies in horrid states. She would have crates in the back of her truck full of puppies with no water, covered in hay and feces just completely depressed. Thankfully the people that worked in the store had huge hearts and had the puppies perked up and happier within a few days. Not only did she have crates full of dogs, she had her own little dogs in the van (not caged, just free in a cube van) Friggen pathetic. I put in complaints to the SPCA but got nowhere. It happens all over, my whole input on it is' Don't buy a single animal from chain stores, unless its an adoption. paying 2-3 grand for a mixed dog at some of these chains is rediculous, espeacially since the dog is almost guarenteed to be from a mill.

[hudson]

Unfortunately it's not just chain store's that you have to watch for, the majority (not all) of smaller, independantly owned pet store's have worse conditions than the larger chains (at least big chains are subject to the odd corporate inspection which forces them to clean it up for a short period of time). The smaller store's don't have the big name and corporations to fall back on when their pocket is hurting, they rely on sales to stay afloat and if a puppy isn't sellable it's expendable, they are not going to dent their profit margin to get medical attention for a puppy the paid practically nothing for. I've worked in enough of these store's in the past to see what goes on behind closed doors and it's enough to make you sick to your stomach. A story I will share with you about one of our local small pet store's is he let two puppies die a slow and painful death from parvo in the back room because he was too cheap to bring them to a vet. and then because he was even to cheap to buy the proper disenfectant for the kennels he decided to mix up his own concoction which let off such strong fumes it killed two parrots.

Kate

[mykee]

Puppy mill or not, who in their right mind would spend $600-$2000 for an UNREGISTERED dog?

[emilsmee]

hudson, yes there are definately puppy wholesalers. i've worked with a couple. they breed a bunch of puppies, you order ahead or just call to see what they have available. i wouldn't exactly call them puppy mills because they're not cage raised, and not really mass produced in a warehouse. they treat they're puppies like family and usually have huge ranches. they also have a lot of breeders they're in contact with so that if they don't have what you're looking for, someone will. they're mostly in montreal and ottawa. also there is a 'wholesaler' in ontario. she goes through a bunch of breeders and buys litters from breeders as they're needed (sometimes from the states).

[emilsmee]

LOTS of people mykee... it's all about whats in front of you. people don't like to wait. also stupid people think they're safer to buy from a petstore who offers guarantees despite how shady they often are.

[danielle]

You don't actually think that a registered breeder would take that risk do you, and no "illegal was not a poor choice of words because they can actually be fined for doing so.

I think i worded my statement wrong or you misinterpreted it, i said if the person did not register themselves as a breeder, not that they would ignore the fact that they weren't supposed to sell the puppies to a pet store

But honestly why would a respectable breeder sell their puppies to a pet store where they would get $100 a piece for them, when they could sell them privately and get a whole lot more.

I would also imagine that pet stores pay more then 100 dollars a piece for they're puppies, especially with the prices that they are selling them for, besides =) i thought breeders weren't in it for the money?
danielle

[danielle]

!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry, i was trying to respond to Kate there and i messed it up
danielle

[danielle]

The Gino (sorry i didn't see your name anywhere) i cannot imagine that a breeder is able to keep his/her pups clean 100% of the time either, a friend just got a great dane puppy and it was from a litter of 13 pups, and they got so dirty that they actually got infections from the fact they stepped in their poo and were rough with each other, a couple of their scratches had i think she said staph infections?? i would think because a pet store is in the public eye so much they would make the effort to ensure the pups were clean

[hudson]

Emilsmee, I would love the names to these "puppy wholesalers" that you keep claiming exist. Because even the way you describe them they sure sound like puppy mills or puppy mill brokers to me.

Danielle, I can gaurantee you that pet store's don't pay more than $100-$150 for their non papered puppy's. That is how much money they are making off these dogs and as long as people are still dumb enough to pay the ridiculously high prices they will keep on doing it.

As for your little scenereo about registered dogs but not a registered breeder I will put it very simply for you. A pet store in Canada is not suposed to have a papered puppy born in Canada in their store, if they want to sell papered puppies then have have to import them from the States. Do pet stores still try to sell papered puppies born in Canada, of course they do, do they get caught, of course they do and they pay their fine usually upwards of thousands of dollars (which gets higher every time they get caught) and unfortunately it's back to business as usual. There is just not enough man power to effectively inforce these laws.

And by the way who told you breeders weren't in it for the money,
of course they are, sure they start with a particular type of dog because they love that breed, but they wouldn't start and stay breeding if there was no financial gain to it.

And finally for your comments to Gino, your right a breeder cannot possibly keep their puppies clean 100% of the time, but they absolutely should not be getting staph infections. Just because they are registered breeders doesn't mean that they are good, you still have to do your research and check references to make sure that you are getting a healthy puppy. Maybe your friend should have done a little more research and found a good breeder, because there are several very good Dane breeders in and around your area, instead of buying a sick animal from the first breeder she found.

Kate

[tHeGiNo]

The Gino (sorry i didn't see your name anywhere) i cannot imagine that a breeder is able to keep his/her pups clean 100% of the time either, a friend just got a great dane puppy and it was from a litter of 13 pups, and they got so dirty that they actually got infections from the fact they stepped in their poo and were rough with each other, a couple of their scratches had i think she said staph infections??

My name is David, not a problem. The way I see it, if you cannot keep your animals in healthy, proper, sanitary conditions, you should not be keeping them - let alone breeding them! The fact of the matter is, in my opinion, pet stores do not have the resources to properly care for their animals, and so they should not be sold at pet stores. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bad breeders out there who do not sell to pet stores, which is unfortunate. Often times people think that there is a great deal of money in breeding your animals, however they do not realize the costs associated with doing so, or at least doing so properly.

Puppy mill or not, who in their right mind would spend $600-$2000 for an UNREGISTERED dog?

I say that every day, unfortunately I think what it boils down to is ignorance, as in, ignorant to the situation. I also think that when they walk in the store and see that cute little puppy, covered in feces or not, some people cannot resist or just simply do not know better.

And finally for your comments to Gino, your right a breeder cannot possibly keep their puppies clean 100% of the time, but they absolutely should not be getting staph infections. Just because they are registered breeders doesn't mean that they are good, you still have to do your research and check references to make sure that you are getting a healthy puppy.

I think maybe you misunderstood me a wee bit, but thats not a problem. Puppies will be puppies - they poo and pee a lot, and sure they cannot be 100% clean all of the time. My stance is that if you cannot care for them properly, which is a loose term I suppose, you should not be breeding them. I am not saying every registered breeder is perfect either, but I look at it this way. Who do you think would care for their animals better - someone who is paying extra to have their animals registered and vaccinated appropriately, or your typical backyard breeder?

It all boils down to research, research and more research along with a touch of patience. Mind you, I do know people who have purchased animals from pet stores which have turned out to be perfectly healthy. Either way, it is just not worth the gamble in my opinion.

[LISA127]

A good breeder that cares about it's puppies would never sell to a petstore. They want to know what home each puppy is going to. Besides, we don't need these petstores selling puppymill puppies. There are too many animals in shelters that need homes.

[Bruce]

Hudson,

Just to add salt to the 'wound'. I had purchased a reg'd English Mastiff pup about 10 years ago from a CKC Reg'd breeder. At that time, I was told, show quality was $700 and pet quality was $400. That seemed to be standard across the country.
Yesterday I queried several Canadian Mastiff web sites for pricing. Buckle up - $2,000 to $3,000, with $2,500 being average per dog!
Now come on, I challenge anyone to justify those prices. Has registration for litters, food or attendance at shows gone up to justify those ridiculous prices? Eventually the market will prevail, as in real estate and they'll crash and burn.

Chris Rodgers

[danielle]

Kate, im not sure about most pet stores but i already spoke to a pet store about how much they would purchase puppys from me if i should have a litter soon and it was well over 150 dollars more then double that actually. Although they may be an exception to the rule, i would imagine that not every single store is the same way. In regards to your comment about pet stores getting fines for selling papered puppies, i thought someone said it was illegal for ckc reg'd breeders to sell to a pet store, not for the pet store to sell the puppies. How can the ckc have any say over a pet store that is not part of their organization? Also the dane breeder had the puppies checked by the vet as soon as she noticed the scratches, so im not sure that she could be considered a bad breeder, just because an accident happened, she took the appropriate steps after noticing the problem, saw her vet right away.

[hudson]

Danielle, I never once said that it is ckc regulations that prevents registered breeders from selling to pet stores, I've been talking about federal and provincial laws.

Also I used to live in London and am curious to know which store it is that you are referring to. And why would you even consider selling your puppies to a pet store after reading what people have told you about them, when you could sell them privately and they could be raised in a home environment instead of a cage untill they are sold, not to mention you would make more money.

Kate

[nita]

I would never buy any animal from a pet store unless I was doing it as a rescue and even then I have issues doing it. Just encourages them. A friend of mine recently purchased a Reg Shitzu and the first breeder she went to she ended up calling the SPCA on, she got a rash just from holding the puppy!! The place was filthy, there was feces everywhere and the puppies were all just kept in a large barn. The people ended up fined with a bunch of their animals taken away, she found a better breeder to get hers from. We also have decided to get a dog and finally found the breed we want as well as found a breeder that we like and trust and an obediance school we like.

[danielle]

Actually Kate, i was considering the pet store where i got my dog from, i was very happy with my dog and since that is where i got her from when we finally get around to having puppies i was thinking of either selling privately or to that store. . Also i'd love to see a copy of that law about not selling reg'd puppies if you could suggest where i might look it up. i had just assumed it was a minor law, i didn't realize it was actually a federal one but i would love to be able to read the actual wording of it. thanks

[tHeGiNo]

For legalities sake, lets try to keep the names of specific stores out of the conversation please :D.

[bcbob]

Buying a pup from a pet store likely is not the best choice imo.

If one is seriously looking to purchase and care for a specific breed, then it's best to buy from someone who is very experienced with THAT breed, and is there to interview YOU- to determine whether their pup will do well with your lifestyle and expectations- furthermore evaluating the pup of the litter that might best suit you. They will be there to follow up, answer questions, offer solutions to problems, and be heartfelt about the pup's welfare that THEY produced. They may even be willing to allow you to return a pup that isn't working out- no questions asked. You can also see the sire and dam, hear about their accomplishments personally, be given references from former buyers, and if the breeder is somewhat truthful, be told of the shortcomings of the lineage. These are folks who truly care about what they produce and where they will be going.

Petstores don't do that. And breeders like that don't sell to petstores.

Simple research will prove that a good breeder is the way to go in the longrun.

Just my penny's worth.

[tHeGiNo]

I totally agree Bob. Leave the food to the pet stores, and the live animals to the breeders. Frankly, I do not see any reason to buy from a pet store where there are several reputable breeders around. What's even funnier is that, often times, breeders are cheaper!

[danielle]

Bob, that so far has been the best reason anyone has ever given that i have heard so far. Thank you