need help with sick balls

[nimrodfiftyfour]

I work at a petshop and the ball pythons we have are exhibiting several worriesome signs. They have very loose and pungent feces which seem to consist of more liquid than solid and are also exhibiting uncontrolable tremors and lethargy. We had three like this, but one died this morning. Took them to our crappy vet here and he said, and I quote "they might live and they might not". That was his brilliant solution! Didn't give a diagnostic because he has no clue, never had a dog w/ this problem and snakes don't matter.:mad: Any help is much appreciated

[smeagel]

are they WC?

[alanhoo]

I wish I could. :(

[nimrodfiftyfour]

No, they are cb. I refuse to just accept "I don't know, lets see if they make it", but I can't find any info on anything like this on any of the sites I've checked. Its just frustrating

[smeagel]

I would go back to the breeder and see if he knos anything about it or if he can do something for you. How long have they been there? They might have internal parasites, but i'm no expert.

[nita]

I'm guessing by CB you mean Captive born, not captive bred. If they are indeed captive bred, talk to the breeder. Otherwise find a better vet who knows reptiles.

[Artemis]

Whatever the diagnosis they clearly arent healthy. I hope you arent still selling them to people at this time, without some sort of guarantee. Could be parasites, could be stress, could be Boid Disease, could be all three.

Sorry to hear about this. Hope they make it. If getting another vet to come and look at them is an option your company will not allow, then Id give them water, check their minimum husbandry requirements (ie temps and hides) and leave them alone as much as possible. If they are still kicking after 2 or 3 weeks, try to feed them.

BOL-

Artemis

[bloodbeard]

when i had a milk snake that wouldent eat (suspected gut infection), we gave it a bath, basicaly putting it in a fish tank with a stone just a couple of centimetres underwater for it to sit on and rest so it dident drown, this helped clear out its insides as it drank quite a bit. dunno know if it will help, but it could be worth a try. what do other pople think?

[Artemis]

I think that would be a bad idea blood. I know my BP HATES to be stuck in the water (though admittedly not all do) but the bottom line is it is better to avoid causing any additional stress to an already immunocompromised animal, and if no veterinary treatment is available its best to keep the animal stress free so its immune system can hopefully take care of things. With parasites, im not sure water is going to kill them off, anyways. It might thin them out a little, but speaking as a human who has had them, they tend to bounce back without some sort of antiparasitic treatment.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

I would love to get another vet, however there are two probs. with that. One- I work for Petco. Two-there is not a single reptile vet in the state. All have them have taken one or two minor courses in reptiles to fill thier requirments, and most of those classes are for "exotics", which is everything but dogs, cats, and farm animals. I have them on paper towel to compensate for the extremely runny droppings. They have a large water dish and temp is about 85degrees. To no surprise they aren't eating, but are looking a little better.
Also, as part of the petco environment, we can't contact the breeder about individual animals, because they don't know any better than we do. The company goes with whoever is cheapest, and then gets pissed at me when we get sick animals. Go figure.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Oh, and there is no way I am allowing these to be sold. We are much more responsible than that, so no worries there :-).

[Jeff_Favelle]

"Temps about 85 degrees isn't going to cut it. Not even close. BP's REQUIRE a temperature range of 90-92F warm end, 80F cool end. There's no way that the snakes can get any better if they aren't kept properly in the first place. Ball Pythons are AMAZINGLY resilient and can bounce back from quite severe illnesses. However, to do that, they must have at least the right conditions that they have evolved for thousands of years to live in.

In reptile keeping, temperature is KING. Screw that up and you might as well not bother.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

That just makes me madder. The vet told us that by dropping the temp it would help in some way if it was an internal parasite. Sounded wierd to me, but hey, he's the one getting baid right? I will raise them back up tommorow. Thanks for your help, will keep you posted.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Reptiles USE temperatures to get rid of parasites. LOTS of snakes bask at 100F to get rid of disease and other nasties. Viruses and other bad doods HATE the heat. Fish do the same as well.

Lower temps is what CAUSES the problems in the first place. Not a cure. LOL! What an idiot vet. Report him, AND show him this thread.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Will put a 100watt bulb over them tonight. Thanks guys.

[jfmoore]

One of the first things you should do is have some fecals done. Even a veterinarian (or his tech staff) who has no experience with reptiles should be competent in that department. If the pet store you work at uses a vet who has no expertise with reptiles, it would be in their interest (and his) to have him be better educated.
You indicate that your location is in Utah. Perhaps this vet might be interested in consulting with a member of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians. The link below lists some possible choices in Utah.

ARAV (http://www.arav.org/Members/UT.htm)

And try to make sure that those snakes have access to fresh water and that they are kept at around 90 degrees.

Good Luck
-Joan

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Hey, thanks for that link. Unfortunately, as I said, I work for a corporate pet store, so the person that we take it to is not up to me, really wish it was though. I put bulb on them today, they are around 95degrees now. Have fresh water and a hide spot. I have also noticed that when they defecate bubbles come out first. The vet did not do a fecal to my knowledge, but given his reaction, and more so where I work, I know that I wont be able to take them back. They just won't pay for it. Its so frustrating, I wish I could afford to get them and take them. Any other ideas on what I can do? Is there any where that I can read about how to do a fecal myself? Thanks again everyone.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The light bulb might not be a great idea either. Ball Pythons are NOCTURNAL, BURROWING snakes. A light bulb is pretty useless if the cage is set up properly.

And if they have a spot at 95F, they better damn well have a spot that's also 80F. TEMPERATURE GRADIENT IS NOT AN OPTION. iTS A REQUIREMENT.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Not to fear, its a red bulb. They are in a 20 long, so the other side is just over 80.

[dystopia]

Originally posted by nimrodfiftyfour
Is there any where that I can read about how to do a fecal myself? Thanks again everyone.

I do know a guy that taught himself how to do fecals and he recommended these books which i believe you can find on amazon or maybe you can find them locally. I do not know how to do a fecal and only hope this info will help you out.

A Veterinary Guide to the Parasites of Reptiles: Protozoa
by Susan M. Barnard, Steve J. Upton

A Veterinary Guide to the Parasites of Reptiles: Arthropods (Excluding Mites)
by Susan M. Barnard, Lance A. Durden, Steve J. Upton

I fear however that even if you do the fecals yourself and probably find critters, you still would probably need the correct medication. I do not know if its a broad spectrum kinda thing or not as my BP hasnt had any issues yet. Perhaps someone else here can help with that.

Also I cant really see any problems arising from doing your own fecal but i could be wrong.

Good Luck and it's good to see a corp pet shop employee willing to put forth all the effort you have.

Jeremy

[zero&stich]

You said the balls 'looked' lethargic. Are they hydrated? If not, a good soaking in Gatoraid should help add least it will add electrolites. I have heard of people using Pedialite, but never tried it. I don't remember the general ratio but I think a delutution of 50% water x 50% Gatoraid should be ok. Those who are more familer can correct me since it's been a while rehydrating anything. It's been a while since I had to hydrate any animal, but I think that's the ratio I used.

Someone already pointed it out but to actually know if 'cites are involved, you should bring in a fecal sample to the vet. At least he should be able to handle that much.

Any signs of RI?

I know this may be out of your hands, but try and convince your manager to seperate them all in seperate cages. Then you will have a firmer grasp on individual health, if space permits you. Maybe take them home to nurse them yourself, and return them, if they heal.

Jeff makes a good point with boosting temps and how 'cites usualy have a lower resist to survive. If you're familer with FW, Ich is a common paracite, and one meathod besides antibiotics, is to crank the temp to 85 degree, so Ich will pass through its life cycle quicker. Makes sense how the same senario can be applied to herps.

Your vet sounds like he/she has been smoking too much weed. REPORT THEM. I've met some pretty braindead vets in my time, but they at least offer antibiotics, mostly baytril. But it's better than giving up with no proper dinogsis(sp).

Much luck! Hope they get better and that vet gets hit by the first moving mac truck that enters the street.

[nimrodfiftyfour]

Ok, update. I put some pediolite in their water dish over night because they did look a bit dehydrated, raised the temp, and gave them a humid hide. However, they showed no progression and while I was off my GM made the descision to have them euthanized. Thanks for the help everyone, it wasn't all in vain for it shall certainly help me with all future cases. Oh, and get this now, we got a boa that it stargazing very exessively, and they won't pay for the blood test. Its going to that same vet, so maybe they are right not to, but we have to do something! God its frustrating. Thanks again everyone.

[sassysnake]

When you say tremors, do you mean just that, or does it look more like actual convulsions? Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was told when I first got my BP's that I couldn't put them on aspen OR pine shavings because soemthing about their urine mixing with the wood secreted vapors that were toxic to them, and would cause strange, jerky movement, convelsions diherria (SP!) unwillingness to drink and eventual death. I assume none of your BP's are housed on either of these beddings? I'm not even sure if this is correct info, mabey someone could back it up, I wouldn't mind knowing myself.

[sassysnake]

Opps, sorry, didn't read your last post first. Well, I guess they have gone to snake heven then, poor little guys, but if someone wants to correct my post anyways, just for the info............That is exactly way I won't work at a pet store, very, VERY few really get all the info and the right set up before housing the animals, they just stick the animals in their and hope they sell before they die! Certainly not bashing all shops, some (especially specialty stores) are very good about care, I've just been in too many and seen very sad and very sick herps. Why is it always the reptiles that get the worst of it?